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Slavery a type of socialism

comoncents
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4/9/2010 11:34:14 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
As described by George Fitzhugh in Cannibals All!

"Slavery," he wrote, "is a form, and the very best form, of socialism."
Fitzhugh believed that slavery reduced the pressure on the poor and lower class, in other words, advocating slavery for poor whites as well as blacks.

http://en.wikipedia.org...

So if this is true, than how did the slaves like there way of living. (outside of abuse)

Their home was covered.
They all had to work.
They were feed.

They also had no opportunity to make a great living.

Does the correlation work?
Is socialism a bad system?
Why is it?
Why is it not?
Does it ever work with out turning the powerful person corrupt and into a dictator?
kelly224
Posts: 952
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4/9/2010 11:38:49 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/9/2010 11:34:14 AM, comoncents wrote:
As described by George Fitzhugh in Cannibals All!

"Slavery," he wrote, "is a form, and the very best form, of socialism."
Fitzhugh believed that slavery reduced the pressure on the poor and lower class, in other words, advocating slavery for poor whites as well as blacks.


http://en.wikipedia.org...


So if this is true, than how did the slaves like there way of living. (outside of abuse)

How can you begin to disregard the abuse? Is this something you personally would volunteer for?

Their home was covered.
They all had to work.
They were feed.

Against there free will. Living accomadations were not adequate.

They also had no opportunity to make a great living.

How is that? If this is so, then why is there such a wealth gap in American society if they had a chance to live comfortably?

Does the correlation work?
Is socialism a bad system?
Why is it?
Why is it not?
Does it ever work with out turning the powerful person corrupt and into a dictator?
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
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4/9/2010 11:57:35 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
Against there free will.
Considering how he's comparing it to socialism...
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
kelly224
Posts: 952
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4/9/2010 12:04:13 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/9/2010 11:57:35 AM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
Against there free will.
Considering how he's comparing it to socialism...

People are forced to do things against their free will everyday, in the workplace,at home, and etc....Do we have socialist households too?
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
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4/9/2010 12:18:40 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/9/2010 12:04:13 PM, kelly224 wrote:
At 4/9/2010 11:57:35 AM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
Against there free will.
Considering how he's comparing it to socialism...

People are forced to do things against their free will everyday, in the workplace
Last I checked they also have the option to quit. Well, except when the regulators are doing actual force, you can't quit the government.

at home, and etc....Do we have socialist households too?
Yes, we have socialist households until the age of 18.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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4/9/2010 12:24:20 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
In theory a slave who is well looked after could have a happy life, and I could see how this could be compared, actually in a positive way to socialism.

But whilst it might sound good in theory, like socialism in practice it fails.

If slaves have no rights nor authority they will not be able to reply on being treated well, therefore they won't always be treated well. Same thing for socialism which may govern for the people, but is not governed by the people and so therefore has no vested interest in keeping them happy.

If you are owned, or controlled and your master/controller has no fear of you then you are totally subject to their whim.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
kelly224
Posts: 952
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4/9/2010 1:35:42 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/9/2010 12:24:20 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
In theory a slave who is well looked after could have a happy life, and I could see how this could be compared, actually in a positive way to socialism.

But whilst it might sound good in theory, like socialism in practice it fails.

Lots of things sound great on paper, especially when it benefits the ones who are drafting it.

If slaves have no rights nor authority they will not be able to reply on being treated well, therefore they won't always be treated well. Same thing for socialism which may govern for the people, but is not governed by the people and so therefore has no vested interest in keeping them happy.

Neither does democracy. Democracy gives you a certain amount of rope, and allows you to hang yourself.

If you are owned, or controlled and your master/controller has no fear of you then you are totally subject to their whim.
Reasoning
Posts: 4,456
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4/9/2010 2:17:20 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Slavery is actually merely the most obvious form of capitalism.

Work for a boss or stave.
"What we really ought to ask the liberal, before we even begin addressing his agenda, is this: In what kind of society would he be a conservative?" - Joseph Sobran
FREEDO
Posts: 21,057
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4/9/2010 2:30:55 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Socialism is meant to decentralize authority in the work-place so, no, slavery is not a good form of Socialism. Neither is it a good form of anything.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
belle
Posts: 4,113
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4/9/2010 2:54:33 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/9/2010 2:17:20 PM, Reasoning wrote:
Slavery is actually merely the most obvious form of capitalism.

Work for a boss or stave.

lol is the hunter gatherer lifestyle slavery too? procure enough food for yourself or starve!
evidently i only come to ddo to avoid doing homework...
DutchPointer
Posts: 7
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4/9/2010 4:19:12 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
There is no need to discredit socialism, because it hardly doesn't exist anymore.
In socialism there wasn't a free market and in the never received Utopia of socialism all businesses were co-operations of the workers who owned it. Instead by advocating socialistic fundamentalism it became an authoritarian way of living without any kid of personal freedom. That kind of policy is defeated by the progress of education and awareness, according to Pointer's Second Law: Democracy is a self-help organization.

Progressive Liberals (PLs), as they are called socialists or communists or even fascists by the American Right-wing Conservatives, are favoring all the personal freedoms you can think of, but not intolerance nor harming each other. So, indeed PLs favor free markets and controlled capitalism. There will never be enough for the greed but always enough for the need. So you will always have to regulate the market to prevent robbery and fraud.

The corporate state is the core of Fascists' thinking where the workers don't have a voice of choice. So, this is also not part of progressive liberal thinking but highly conservative and it is not surprising that American conservatives within the Republican Party funded the first headquarter of Adolf Hitler in Munich and planned to murder President Roosevelt, overthrow the government and to take part in WWII on Hitler's side. They delivered 80% of the steel Hitler used in his war against us.

By now when American conservatives are using the word "socialism" they are always lying about he alleged properties of the progressive Left-wing ideology.
In fact there isn't a progressive ideology, because Left-wingers are smart people and smart people know that ideology isn't moving ahead in the making of a more perfect nation. There are still some principles like solidarity with the weakest in the community of all, but above all there is the consciousness of freedom and common duty with equality of rights.

Overseeing recent American history since 1900 you'll notice that during the terms of all the Republican Presidents the inequality of the gab between the richest and the poorest part of the people increased while that gab is narrowed during all the terms of Democratic Presidents. Also Republican Presidents are by far the highest spenders, time over time raising taxes with championship of Ronald Reagan starting his disastrous star-wars project, not knowing that games are not the reality of physics. Remember also the read-my-lips taxes of Bush41, while Bush43 only cut taxes for the very richest, the 5% that owns 75% of the total American wealth.
So the GOP (God's Own Predators) have plenty of reasons to lie about what they did and about what in their words their "socialist" opponents are supposed to do.
While every day 2500 American citizens are dying by the lack of appropriate health care, there was not a single Republican vote in favor of preventing the unnecessarily loss of American lives, by bringing them all into private health care assurance. According to GOP the only right of a lot of Americans is the right to die and everything else is socialism/communism/fascism.
Rob1Billion
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4/9/2010 10:26:08 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Ragnar, you often say that if we owned everything, privately/capitalistically, that things would be better. Is not this privatization of human beings?
Master P is the end result of capitalism.
Volkov
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4/9/2010 10:32:04 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/9/2010 10:26:08 PM, Rob1Billion wrote:
Ragnar, you often say that if we owned everything, privately/capitalistically, that things would be better. Is not this privatization of human beings?

Humans are already private property - they're the private property of the individual who's body it is. That's the entire basis behind any form of rights - that your individual integrity, aka your individual property, cannot be violated.
FREEDO
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4/9/2010 10:34:21 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/9/2010 10:32:04 PM, Volkov wrote:
At 4/9/2010 10:26:08 PM, Rob1Billion wrote:
Ragnar, you often say that if we owned everything, privately/capitalistically, that things would be better. Is not this privatization of human beings?

Humans are already private property - they're the private property of the individual who's body it is. That's the entire basis behind any form of rights - that your individual integrity, aka your individual property, cannot be violated.

Already posted this once but all well.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
Volkov
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4/9/2010 10:44:23 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/9/2010 10:34:21 PM, FREEDO wrote:
Already posted this once but all well.

Self-ownership is just a fancy way of saying that as an individual, you and you alone have the ability to control what happens to your body, within the bounds of rights and reciprocity and all that. To say that you do not own your own body is to imply that you essentially have no rights whatsoever, because without the ability to exercise power over your own body, how exactly could you claim any rights on your behalf? If you are not your own actor, how can you act on anything?

And Freedo, how do you find it easy to go from free market anarchist to communitarian socialist in the span of two weeks?
FREEDO
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4/9/2010 10:57:34 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/9/2010 10:44:23 PM, Volkov wrote:

And Freedo, how do you find it easy to go from free market anarchist to communitarian socialist in the span of two weeks?

It's been longer than too weeks. If you'll remember correctly I went through a phase of undecidedness and openness to other ideologies because I was experiencing doubts in the one I had.
When I found Libertarian-Socialism I realized the difference between voluntarism and true Anarchy. In voluntarism you are able to still choose slavery, Anarchy is not choosing it.
I realized to have authority over another is to have rights which they do not possess. True equality cannot exist along-side authority. You must pick one. I picked equality and decided that the best society is the one with as much decentralized authority as possible; the abolition of as much hierarchy as possible. "But they have earned it!", that is what they say. But I say no man can "earn" dominion over another, just as a dictator cannot earn his rise to power. It is possible and good to earn luxury but not to earn power over others. I decided that is wasn't a good scenario for an employer to be making more than his workers yet not work himself simply because he owns the property. Even though it happened through voluntary means, which I agree with, I think it was voluntary stupidity. Just imagine how much better it would be to have a say in your own work-environment.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
Xer
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4/9/2010 11:05:27 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/9/2010 10:34:21 PM, FREEDO wrote:
Already posted this once but all well.

All those appeals to emotion really choked me up at the end. Jk. Someone should have told that guy that he doesn't have to work a mindless job if he doesn't want to.

Money line: "We should be producing not for the market, but for people." Economics 101 Fail.

Just imagine how much better it would be to have a say in your own work-environment.

Two choices.
A. Don't work for an employer who doesn't allow you to have a say.
B. Don't work.

---

I'm taking betting odds on what FREEDO will be next week. Maybe a Christian Anarcho-Communist. 10-1 odds seem reasonable.
Volkov
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4/9/2010 11:09:14 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/9/2010 11:05:27 PM, Nags wrote:
I'm taking betting odds on what FREEDO will be next week. Maybe a Christian Anarcho-Communist. 10-1 odds seem reasonable.

I think he already was one. Didn't he say he was a Christian before?
FREEDO
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4/9/2010 11:18:55 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/9/2010 11:09:14 PM, Volkov wrote:
At 4/9/2010 11:05:27 PM, Nags wrote:
I'm taking betting odds on what FREEDO will be next week. Maybe a Christian Anarcho-Communist. 10-1 odds seem reasonable.

I think he already was one. Didn't he say he was a Christian before?

I was raised Christian. And no, the odds of me going back are not likely. I hate religion.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
Xer
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4/9/2010 11:21:43 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/9/2010 11:18:55 PM, FREEDO wrote:
I was raised Christian. And no, the odds of me going back are not likely. I hate religion.

Just like you hated socialism. Weird. Why didn't you attempt to refute my simple refutation of your position and the video?
mongeese
Posts: 5,387
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4/10/2010 7:44:43 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/9/2010 4:19:12 PM, DutchPointer wrote:
Progressive Liberal rant

If you want a proper discussion on the supposedly inherent superiority of Progressive Liberals, start a separate threat.
lastrequest691
Posts: 339
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4/10/2010 10:17:22 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
Socialism is good but only for people who are average.
There is no Justice in Socialism but only Equality.
"That song was absolutely waste of talent; you sounded like a wounded animal and who told you to play the guitar by yourself." Simon Cowell
Reasoning
Posts: 4,456
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4/10/2010 11:08:38 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/10/2010 10:17:22 AM, lastrequest691 wrote:
Socialism is good but only for people who are average.
There is no Justice in Socialism but only Equality.

False.

"Justice, nothing else; that is the alpha and omega of my argument: to others I leave the business of governing the world." - Pierre-Joseph Proudhon
"What we really ought to ask the liberal, before we even begin addressing his agenda, is this: In what kind of society would he be a conservative?" - Joseph Sobran
FREEDO
Posts: 21,057
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4/10/2010 11:45:14 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/10/2010 10:17:22 AM, lastrequest691 wrote:
Socialism is good but only for people who are average.
There is no Justice in Socialism but only Equality.

No, what you're referring to is Communism and it has neither. As a Socialist, I believe that Capitalism doesn't really give people what they're worth because it allows exploitation. In Socialism people can really get what they have earned(speaking of worker-ownership. Redistribution is a different matter). Communism confuses equality with levelism and gives everybody the same thing no matter what, thus has no justice.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
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4/10/2010 12:05:29 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
As a Socialist, I believe that Capitalism doesn't really give people what they're worth because it allows exploitation.
So does everything except death. Economics inherently consists of exploiting things.
In Socialism people can really get what they have earned
Unless they've created a business model that doesn't involve worker-ownership, in which case they'll never find out because no one is allowed to sign up for their business.

Progressive Liberals (PLs), as they are called socialists or communists or even fascists by the American Right-wing Conservatives, are favoring all the personal freedoms you can think of
Except the freedom to spend one's money, without which the rest are completely useless (You really wanna engage in sodomy when you can't buy lube?)
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
Volkov
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4/11/2010 10:01:47 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
I hate it when I have to agree with Ragnar more than I want to.

I really fail to see where "justice" come into socialism. All it basically entails is taking away the right of property from individuals and distributes it to those that not only don't need it but also don't deserve it on what is an "equal" yet very sad basis. What justice comes out of that?
InsertNameHere
Posts: 15,699
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4/11/2010 10:07:43 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/11/2010 10:01:47 PM, Volkov wrote:
I hate it when I have to agree with Ragnar more than I want to.

I really fail to see where "justice" come into socialism. All it basically entails is taking away the right of property from individuals and distributes it to those that not only don't need it but also don't deserve it on what is an "equal" yet very sad basis. What justice comes out of that?

Well many people certainly deserve more than they get, but putting that aside, a mixed economy is best as it seems to be able to benefit more than just one class in society.
shaniqualawyers013
Posts: 69
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4/12/2010 7:51:14 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/10/2010 11:08:38 AM, Reasoning wrote:
At 4/10/2010 10:17:22 AM, lastrequest691 wrote:
Socialism is good but only for people who are average.
There is no Justice in Socialism but only Equality.

False.

Bogus quote that goes along with the inability to put anything in my own words

Actually its false because socialism is only good for people who are below average.
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