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Help with Liberalism

Lupo
Posts: 90
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10/9/2014 7:12:44 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
I'm studying politics to define my position and be a better voter.
I went through socialism, monarchy, democracy,conservatism and realized that the best government is that which gives greater individual freedom to its citizens.
Now I'm stuck in Liberalism , liberalism theoretically should support individual freedoms, but they support income distribution, nationalization, unions, abortion, minority laws, land reform, biggest state,feminism, prohibition of firearms.

This make no sense at all.
bsh1
Posts: 27,504
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10/9/2014 8:59:55 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
Philosophically, the terms liberalism refers to most rights-based, social contra radian approaches. So, Nozick, Rawls, Locke, etc. are all "liberals" in this sense.

Politically, liberalism is more specific to the left-wing. In this sense, Nozick is definitely not a liberal, whereas Rawls is.

The term "liberalism" is confusing because, depending I the context, it references different things.
Live Long and Prosper

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"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

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YYW
Posts: 36,355
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10/9/2014 12:21:40 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/9/2014 9:42:24 AM, UchihaMadara wrote:
At 10/9/2014 9:10:20 AM, YYW wrote:
Index to my political ideology threads:

http://www.debate.org...

Liberalism, in a nutshell:

http://www.debate.org...

holy sh*t, how long did that take you to make?

Not long.
Tsar of DDO
Lupo
Posts: 90
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10/13/2014 6:20:03 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
Sorry for the delay.

At 10/9/2014 8:59:55 AM, bsh1 wrote:

Politically, liberalism is more specific to the left-wing. In this sense, Nozick is definitely not a liberal, whereas Rawls is.

But, how liberalism can go to the left side, if your ideal is to guarantee individual freedoms ?

If I believe that all have individual rights, I can not support left-wing causes, because they defend the social above the individual.
bsh1
Posts: 27,504
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10/13/2014 5:41:07 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/13/2014 6:20:03 AM, Lupo wrote:
Sorry for the delay.

At 10/9/2014 8:59:55 AM, bsh1 wrote:

Politically, liberalism is more specific to the left-wing. In this sense, Nozick is definitely not a liberal, whereas Rawls is.


But, how liberalism can go to the left side, if your ideal is to guarantee individual freedoms ?

Because the word "liberalism" can refer to different things depending on the context. Just as the word "cleave" can mean to bring together or the rip apart. Political liberalism is left-wing. Philosophical liberalism means having a belief in individual rights. Social contractarians are philosophical liberals, even if they are not left-wing, for example.

If I believe that all have individual rights, I can not support left-wing causes, because they defend the social above the individual.

Wrong. Left-wing people can acknowledge that people have rights. Human Right doctrine was started by a big push from the left in the international community. Some left-wingers don't respect individual rights; that does not mean that all left-wingers don't.
Live Long and Prosper

I'm a Bish.


"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

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Lupo
Posts: 90
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10/13/2014 6:25:11 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/9/2014 8:59:55 AM, bsh1 wrote:

If I believe that all have individual rights, I can not support left-wing causes, because they defend the social above the individual.

Wrong. Left-wing people can acknowledge that people have rights. Human Right doctrine was started by a big push from the left in the international community. Some left-wingers don't respect individual rights; that does not mean that all left-wingers don't.

Yes, but all they believe that you can lose your rights, if is beneficial to society. (gun control for example)
To me, if you can lose your rights, you never truly had one.
People have every right to do social programs, however, I don't think that is right be done with the tax money.
As my father used to say "it's easy to be a Christian with other people's money".

This would turn me into a conservative, however I do not care who people you marry, or if you want to use substances that kill you, or if you think that Satan is your savior.
bsh1
Posts: 27,504
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10/13/2014 6:43:12 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/13/2014 6:25:11 PM, Lupo wrote:
At 10/9/2014 8:59:55 AM, bsh1 wrote:

If I believe that all have individual rights, I can not support left-wing causes, because they defend the social above the individual.

Wrong. Left-wing people can acknowledge that people have rights. Human Right doctrine was started by a big push from the left in the international community. Some left-wingers don't respect individual rights; that does not mean that all left-wingers don't.

Yes, but all they believe that you can lose your rights, if is beneficial to society. (gun control for example)

That presupposes that (a) a particular left-winger agrees that you have a right to a gun, and that (b) a particular left-winger agrees that limiting gun control is taking away your rights.

I am a political and philosophical liberal, but I disagree that people have a right to gun in any moral sense. Sure, the Constitution gives it to us, but is the right to a gun a moral right? No. Should it be a legal right? No. And, in places other than the U.S., it is not a right at all.

But secondly, and perhaps more importantly, putting prudent restrictions on rights isn't the same as violating them. You have a right to free speech, yet you cannot shout "fire" in a crowded theatre. Similarly, smart restrictions on gun control aren't violations of the right, nor do they take the right away, they simply clarify the boundaries of the right and what it entitles you to do.

To me, if you can lose your rights, you never truly had one.
People have every right to do social programs, however, I don't think that is right be done with the tax money.

How very Nozick-like. We are all members of a social contract. This, IMO, includes duties by citizens to the government and to each other, as well as duties of the government to the citizens. Social welfare programs, supported via taxation, are justified under the idea that citizens have duties to each other.

As my father used to say "it's easy to be a Christian with other people's money".

This would turn me into a conservative, however I do not care who people you marry, or if you want to use substances that kill you, or if you think that Satan is your savior.

You are, judging by what you've said here, a libertarian.
Live Long and Prosper

I'm a Bish.


"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

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