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Tax is Theft!

Reasoning
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4/15/2010 6:53:05 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
But of course that slogan is just an exaggeration. After all, we must pay our taxes! It's sort of a duty, no? Look, suppose no one paid their taxes, where would streets and sewers and social security and post offices come from? Not to mention police and marines and missiles and space shots? No doubt about it, taxation is necessary, so even if it is theft...

Think about that for a second — "even if it is theft...?" Theft is universally accepted to be an immoral act. Assuming all the aforementioned services are moral and desirable(and that is hotly debated about all of them), how can moral ends be achieved only through immoral means?

"Well, surely, nothing right can be only done wrongly; there is a right way and a wrong way of doing anything," you might say. But then there must be a right way of financing those necessary (moral) services. That is, taxation is not necessary, not if it is immoral.

OK, but even if we all hate paying taxes, that does not make it wrong. It is right or wrong, no matter what we feel about it. It is theft, or not, no matter what our "feelings" about it at the moment.

So consider this. A man sends you a letter saying your neighbors are contributing to his fund. This "fund" performs many good acts, he claims, and perhaps he lists a few. Please send in your contribution, and get it in by the middle of the month. To assist you in deciding your contribution, which should be based on your income (or maybe how much you buy, or how much your house is worth, or something else, or some combination), a handy table for easy calculation is provided.

Nothing wrong here. Junk mail, perhaps; a trifle irritating. Maybe you even agree with most of the
services the Fund finances, and nobody would disagree with all of them. But say you choose either to ignore the letter or send less than your assigned quota. He writes again, expressing his regret at your omission. He mentions that he has means to get your "fair share" — after all, everybody else paid their share, except for a few scoundrels.

Sounds like a threat there, and it does not look like this guy is running a very benevolent fund. Maybe you even send him back a letter telling him to stop bothering you or you will be forced to take legal action.

Now he sends more threatening letters, and finally a few of his "friends" drop by to impress upon you the meaning of your not coughing up. At this time you decide it is time for help. You look around for an agency to give you protection — a bodyguard, maybe. But there is only one in town, and those goons outside are already working for it. As you try to stop them from seizing your furniture (or bank account or whatever) they pull their guns on you. You say, "You are acting like thieves!"

"No," they answer, "you are the crook. You are withholding your share from the Fund." "But I never agreed to your ‘fund.' Let us go to a judge and let him decide whether I owe anything." "Fine," they say (and is that a smile curling their lips?). "Come to the Fund office." "Well," you reply reasonably, "not your judge, or even mine, to be fair. Let's try to agree on an impartial one."

"But," they laugh, "the Fund does not allow any other judges. Don't worry, though; if you paid more than your quota, why, you'll get the rest back."

"But I do not want to pay anything," you wail. They brandish their guns. "This is nothing but a hold-up. You're thieves!"

And they are.
"What we really ought to ask the liberal, before we even begin addressing his agenda, is this: In what kind of society would he be a conservative?" - Joseph Sobran
comoncents
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4/15/2010 7:10:51 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Well, it seems theft if a person takes my money with out my giving it of my free will.

I think about it differently.
If you taken my money and use it for my good, (roads, bridges), but when it is used in places that I do not agree with than I feel as if a injustice is being done.

You can not justify covering up an immoral act with another immoral act!
Ore_Ele
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4/15/2010 7:23:51 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Paying your debts and bills is not theft. They provide a service, you pay for it. That's how everything works.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
mattrodstrom
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4/15/2010 7:35:00 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
'tax is theft'

agreed
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
Reasoning
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4/15/2010 7:58:21 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/15/2010 7:23:51 PM, OreEle wrote:
Paying your debts and bills is not theft. They provide a service, you pay for it. That's how everything works.

I teach small children how to swim. I therefore demand that you pay my fund.
"What we really ought to ask the liberal, before we even begin addressing his agenda, is this: In what kind of society would he be a conservative?" - Joseph Sobran
Ore_Ele
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4/15/2010 8:08:21 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/15/2010 7:58:21 PM, Reasoning wrote:
At 4/15/2010 7:23:51 PM, OreEle wrote:
Paying your debts and bills is not theft. They provide a service, you pay for it. That's how everything works.

I teach small children how to swim. I therefore demand that you pay my fund.

If you taught my children, then you could. Or if it was agreed by the community (or state or nation or whatever social level it is agreed upon) that you would provide swimming lessons for kids and the state (or nation or community) would pay for it. And for the things that are not directly voted on by the people, but by the government (which is voted on by the people), then you vote for different people (or use impeachment to get them out before election day, I love to see more of that, that'll truely hold them accountable).
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
mattrodstrom
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4/15/2010 8:13:17 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/15/2010 8:09:40 PM, belle wrote:
plagiarism is also theft!

lol, but it's for a good cause....
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
Reasoning
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4/15/2010 8:16:47 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/15/2010 8:14:27 PM, OreEle wrote:
At 4/15/2010 8:09:40 PM, belle wrote:
plagiarism is also theft!

10/10

Firstly, I never meant to leave the impression that I wrote this. However, plagiarism is not theft. It's not a very nice thing to do, but it is not theft. Unlike taxation.
"What we really ought to ask the liberal, before we even begin addressing his agenda, is this: In what kind of society would he be a conservative?" - Joseph Sobran
Reasoning
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4/15/2010 8:19:57 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/15/2010 8:08:21 PM, OreEle wrote:
If you taught my children, then you could.

So because you don't benefit you don't have to pay? On the contrary.

Or if it was agreed by the community (or state or nation or whatever social level it is agreed upon)

So if it is agreed upon by some percentage of those residing in some arbitrary region, go on.

that you would provide swimming lessons for kids and the state (or nation or community) would pay for it. And for the things that are not directly voted on by the people, but by the government (which is voted on by the people), then you vote for different people (or use impeachment to get them out before election day, I love to see more of that, that'll truely hold them accountable).

So somehow theft isn't theft if it is performed in your arbitrary convoluted manner. I see.
"What we really ought to ask the liberal, before we even begin addressing his agenda, is this: In what kind of society would he be a conservative?" - Joseph Sobran
MikeLoviN
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4/15/2010 8:23:16 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/15/2010 8:13:17 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 4/15/2010 8:09:40 PM, belle wrote:
plagiarism is also theft!

lol, but it's for a good cause....

..so are taxes
mattrodstrom
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4/15/2010 8:40:47 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/15/2010 8:23:16 PM, MikeLoviN wrote:
At 4/15/2010 8:13:17 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 4/15/2010 8:09:40 PM, belle wrote:
plagiarism is also theft!

lol, but it's for a good cause....

..so are taxes

lol, that's why I said it in such a sarcastic tone... did you not hear??
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
Korashk
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4/15/2010 8:45:20 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
This is kind of why I became a fan of R_R's user-fee minarchy concept. When I first heard the idea it sounded rediculous, but then I realized that Blizzard/whoever earns revenue for their products earns more money in a year on user-fees for World of Warcraft than the GDP of some countries.
When large numbers of otherwise-law abiding people break specific laws en masse, it's usually a fault that lies with the law. - Unknown
Ore_Ele
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4/15/2010 8:55:47 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/15/2010 8:19:57 PM, Reasoning wrote:
At 4/15/2010 8:08:21 PM, OreEle wrote:
If you taught my children, then you could.

So because you don't benefit you don't have to pay? On the contrary.

Yeah, parents shouldn't have to pay for the stuff they get for their kids.


Or if it was agreed by the community (or state or nation or whatever social level it is agreed upon)

So if it is agreed upon by some percentage of those residing in some arbitrary region, go on.

that you would provide swimming lessons for kids and the state (or nation or community) would pay for it. And for the things that are not directly voted on by the people, but by the government (which is voted on by the people), then you vote for different people (or use impeachment to get them out before election day, I love to see more of that, that'll truely hold them accountable).

So somehow theft isn't theft if it is performed in your arbitrary convoluted manner. I see.

theft is thetf, tax isn't. If you (or a group of people, known as a community) agree to pay for something, that's called doing business.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
Ragnar_Rahl
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4/15/2010 8:57:00 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
theft is thetf, tax isn't. If you (or a group of people, known as a community) agree to pay for something, that's called doing business.
The community didn't agree. Some people agreed to take from others. The only way "the community agrees" can have a concretizable meaning is if every single entity within it agrees.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
Ore_Ele
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4/15/2010 9:02:02 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/15/2010 8:57:00 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
theft is thetf, tax isn't. If you (or a group of people, known as a community) agree to pay for something, that's called doing business.
The community didn't agree. Some people agreed to take from others. The only way "the community agrees" can have a concretizable meaning is if every single entity within it agrees.

the whole =/= the sum of its parts.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
Ore_Ele
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4/15/2010 9:04:19 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/15/2010 8:45:20 PM, Korashk wrote:
This is kind of why I became a fan of R_R's user-fee minarchy concept. When I first heard the idea it sounded rediculous, but then I realized that Blizzard/whoever earns revenue for their products earns more money in a year on user-fees for World of Warcraft than the GDP of some countries.

except when you stop and think that he wants to make the police and fire department user-fee based.

Police - "Man stole your car you say?"
You - "yes, he took it at gun point. The liciense plate is..."
Police - "hold your horses, before we go any further, I need you to pay the $2,000 fee up front. If you can't, you might as well just kiss your car good bye."
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
MikeLoviN
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4/15/2010 9:05:18 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/15/2010 8:40:47 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
lol, that's why I said it in such a sarcastic tone... did you not hear??

It would have helped if you had a sign. Like so:
Ore_Ele
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4/15/2010 9:06:30 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/15/2010 9:04:19 PM, OreEle wrote:
At 4/15/2010 8:45:20 PM, Korashk wrote:
This is kind of why I became a fan of R_R's user-fee minarchy concept. When I first heard the idea it sounded rediculous, but then I realized that Blizzard/whoever earns revenue for their products earns more money in a year on user-fees for World of Warcraft than the GDP of some countries.

except when you stop and think that he wants to make the police and fire department user-fee based.

Police - "Man stole your car you say?"
You - "yes, he took it at gun point. The liciense plate is..."
Police - "hold your horses, before we go any further, I need you to pay the $2,000 fee up front. If you can't, you might as well just kiss your car good bye."

or

You - "Help, my house is on fire!!!"
Fireman - "It's gonna be about $5,750 to stop this fire."
You - "What?!"
Fireman - "Gee, that's too bad...I shoulda brought marshmallows."
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
comoncents
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4/15/2010 9:06:46 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/15/2010 9:04:19 PM, OreEle wrote:
At 4/15/2010 8:45:20 PM, Korashk wrote:
This is kind of why I became a fan of R_R's user-fee minarchy concept. When I first heard the idea it sounded rediculous, but then I realized that Blizzard/whoever earns revenue for their products earns more money in a year on user-fees for World of Warcraft than the GDP of some countries.

except when you stop and think that he wants to make the police and fire department user-fee based.

Police - "Man stole your car you say?"
You - "yes, he took it at gun point. The liciense plate is..."
Police - "hold your horses, before we go any further, I need you to pay the $2,000 fee up front. If you can't, you might as well just kiss your car good bye."

Yep, I think "Fair Tax" is best plan to date.

http://www.fairtax.org...
Korashk
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4/15/2010 9:17:21 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/15/2010 9:06:30 PM, OreEle wrote:
At 4/15/2010 9:04:19 PM, OreEle wrote:
At 4/15/2010 8:45:20 PM, Korashk wrote:
This is kind of why I became a fan of R_R's user-fee minarchy concept. When I first heard the idea it sounded rediculous, but then I realized that Blizzard/whoever earns revenue for their products earns more money in a year on user-fees for World of Warcraft than the GDP of some countries.

except when you stop and think that he wants to make the police and fire department user-fee based.

Police - "Man stole your car you say?"
You - "yes, he took it at gun point. The liciense plate is..."
Police - "hold your horses, before we go any further, I need you to pay the $2,000 fee up front. If you can't, you might as well just kiss your car good bye."

or

You - "Help, my house is on fire!!!"
Fireman - "It's gonna be about $5,750 to stop this fire."
You - "What?!"
Fireman - "Gee, that's too bad...I shoulda brought marshmallows."

I'm pretty sure what you're doing there is called straw-manning.
When large numbers of otherwise-law abiding people break specific laws en masse, it's usually a fault that lies with the law. - Unknown
Ragnar_Rahl
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4/15/2010 9:22:12 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/15/2010 9:02:02 PM, OreEle wrote:
At 4/15/2010 8:57:00 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
theft is thetf, tax isn't. If you (or a group of people, known as a community) agree to pay for something, that's called doing business.
The community didn't agree. Some people agreed to take from others. The only way "the community agrees" can have a concretizable meaning is if every single entity within it agrees.

the whole =/= the sum of its parts.
It does = such until there is a specific reason to the contrary.

except when you stop and think that he wants to make the police and fire department user-fee based.

Police - "Man stole your car you say?"
You - "yes, he took it at gun point. The liciense plate is..."
Police - "hold your horses, before we go any further, I need you to pay the $2,000 fee up front. If you can't, you might as well just kiss your car good bye."
That's called a preexisting condition. You pay BEFORE you have a situation, and the government doesn't fix things that happened before you bought in if it has any sense.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
Ore_Ele
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4/15/2010 10:23:22 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/15/2010 9:22:12 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
At 4/15/2010 9:02:02 PM, OreEle wrote:
At 4/15/2010 8:57:00 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
theft is thetf, tax isn't. If you (or a group of people, known as a community) agree to pay for something, that's called doing business.
The community didn't agree. Some people agreed to take from others. The only way "the community agrees" can have a concretizable meaning is if every single entity within it agrees.

the whole =/= the sum of its parts.
It does = such until there is a specific reason to the contrary.

except when you stop and think that he wants to make the police and fire department user-fee based.

Police - "Man stole your car you say?"
You - "yes, he took it at gun point. The liciense plate is..."
Police - "hold your horses, before we go any further, I need you to pay the $2,000 fee up front. If you can't, you might as well just kiss your car good bye."
That's called a preexisting condition. You pay BEFORE you have a situation, and the government doesn't fix things that happened before you bought in if it has any sense.

Then it isn't a fee, it is insurance.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
Ragnar_Rahl
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4/15/2010 10:25:41 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/15/2010 10:23:22 PM, OreEle wrote:
At 4/15/2010 9:22:12 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
At 4/15/2010 9:02:02 PM, OreEle wrote:
At 4/15/2010 8:57:00 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
theft is thetf, tax isn't. If you (or a group of people, known as a community) agree to pay for something, that's called doing business.
The community didn't agree. Some people agreed to take from others. The only way "the community agrees" can have a concretizable meaning is if every single entity within it agrees.

the whole =/= the sum of its parts.
It does = such until there is a specific reason to the contrary.

except when you stop and think that he wants to make the police and fire department user-fee based.

Police - "Man stole your car you say?"
You - "yes, he took it at gun point. The liciense plate is..."
Police - "hold your horses, before we go any further, I need you to pay the $2,000 fee up front. If you can't, you might as well just kiss your car good bye."
That's called a preexisting condition. You pay BEFORE you have a situation, and the government doesn't fix things that happened before you bought in if it has any sense.

Then it isn't a fee, it is insurance.
You don't pay insurance fees?

That said, since the idea is to go after the guy who got you in trouble and deter him, then compensate you with what's recovered instead of compensate you directly out of the pool of payers and ignore the cause, it's not really an insurance model, at least not one analogous to most forms of insurance.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
Ore_Ele
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4/15/2010 10:35:28 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/15/2010 10:25:41 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
At 4/15/2010 10:23:22 PM, OreEle wrote:
At 4/15/2010 9:22:12 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
At 4/15/2010 9:02:02 PM, OreEle wrote:
At 4/15/2010 8:57:00 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
theft is thetf, tax isn't. If you (or a group of people, known as a community) agree to pay for something, that's called doing business.
The community didn't agree. Some people agreed to take from others. The only way "the community agrees" can have a concretizable meaning is if every single entity within it agrees.

the whole =/= the sum of its parts.
It does = such until there is a specific reason to the contrary.

except when you stop and think that he wants to make the police and fire department user-fee based.

Police - "Man stole your car you say?"
You - "yes, he took it at gun point. The liciense plate is..."
Police - "hold your horses, before we go any further, I need you to pay the $2,000 fee up front. If you can't, you might as well just kiss your car good bye."
That's called a preexisting condition. You pay BEFORE you have a situation, and the government doesn't fix things that happened before you bought in if it has any sense.

Then it isn't a fee, it is insurance.
You don't pay insurance fees?

No, I pay premiums.

I pay "fees" for for licenses (after I get them, or at the same time I get them). And for traffic violations (another after the fact cost).

Fees are an "after the fact" cost. Something happens, and that causes a fee.

I suppose you could call them, "police vouchers," then you just carry a piece of paper to redeem at a later date.


That said, since the idea is to go after the guy who got you in trouble and deter him, then compensate you with what's recovered instead of compensate you directly out of the pool of payers and ignore the cause, it's not really an insurance model, at least not one analogous to most forms of insurance.

what if nothing is recovered, like in an assult or rape (as opposed to theft)? The people that are attacked/robbed the most end up paying the most. This makes the victim of a crime, a victim of the government (since they end up paying more).

So that would make it easy to target people. Poorer people (which I'm sure is their fault) might be able to save up and get a voucher or two. So if you wanted to cause them pain, you and some buddies could do some minor crimes that yeild little punishment to make the person use up their vouchers. Then, once that person is out of vouchers (or pre-paid protection, whatever you want to call it), that person is undefended and the police will no longer help.

Now you can rob them all you like. That person can't get another voucher, because they can't save up money because you keep robbing them. Oh well.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
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4/15/2010 11:41:05 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/15/2010 10:35:28 PM, OreEle wrote:
At 4/15/2010 10:25:41 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
At 4/15/2010 10:23:22 PM, OreEle wrote:
At 4/15/2010 9:22:12 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
At 4/15/2010 9:02:02 PM, OreEle wrote:
At 4/15/2010 8:57:00 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
theft is thetf, tax isn't. If you (or a group of people, known as a community) agree to pay for something, that's called doing business.
The community didn't agree. Some people agreed to take from others. The only way "the community agrees" can have a concretizable meaning is if every single entity within it agrees.

the whole =/= the sum of its parts.
It does = such until there is a specific reason to the contrary.

except when you stop and think that he wants to make the police and fire department user-fee based.

Police - "Man stole your car you say?"
You - "yes, he took it at gun point. The liciense plate is..."
Police - "hold your horses, before we go any further, I need you to pay the $2,000 fee up front. If you can't, you might as well just kiss your car good bye."
That's called a preexisting condition. You pay BEFORE you have a situation, and the government doesn't fix things that happened before you bought in if it has any sense.

Then it isn't a fee, it is insurance.
You don't pay insurance fees?

No, I pay premiums.
Those are fees. You pay them, you get services.

Fees are an "after the fact" cost
Nonsense. I pay a technology fee at the university long before I get access to technology.


That said, since the idea is to go after the guy who got you in trouble and deter him, then compensate you with what's recovered instead of compensate you directly out of the pool of payers and ignore the cause, it's not really an insurance model, at least not one analogous to most forms of insurance.

what if nothing is recovered, like in an assult or rape (as opposed to theft)?
Then you're stuck deterring. But I doubt NOTHING is recovered, after all, the person you're going after ain't gonna need no property when he's executed or the equivalent, and that could be a source of partial compensation.

The people that are attacked/robbed the most end up paying the most. This makes the victim of a crime, a victim of the government (since they end up paying more).
Am I a victim of Microsoft if I buy more software? No, I'm a customer.


So that would make it easy to target people. Poorer people (which I'm sure is their fault) might be able to save up and get a voucher or two. So if you wanted to cause them pain, you and some buddies could do some minor crimes that yeild little punishment
I don't believe in "minor crimes." Unless there's a damn good reason not to, if you so much as steal a candybar from a customer of Ragnarcorp brand government you will be executed or enslaved, the question of which being determined by whether it is profitable to enslave you. It might be necessary for stability to let minors off the hook for a first offense, but even that is distasteful.

to make the person use up their vouchers.
The model I outlined is for service, not per service. You don't "use up vouchers." It's more of a subscription thing.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
banker
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4/16/2010 5:36:18 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
Immorale act could be at other times mmorale.!! War agains jihadic beheaders or against killers who gas innocent people mass murdering viliges..!! I assume some could understand why celebrating july 4 in times square watching a hanging of kids is wrong...!! Or a behading of a innocent person is no reason to cellebrate...!!!
Only if your morrale your able to understand that war against them is morrale..!!
Despite war originaly bieng unmmorale ..!!
Same thing with taxes if its moral to force you not to be a drain on the community its not morale to use this fore for a other use of taxes..!!
the most important source for muslim Arabs:

"And thereafter We [Allah] said to the Children of Israel: 'Dwell securely in the Promised Land. And when the last warning will come to pass, we will gather you together in a mingled crowd'.".

- Qur'an 17:104 -

Any sincere muslim must recognize the Land they call "Palestine" as the Jewish Homeland, according to the book considered by muslims to be the most sacred word and Allah's ultimate revelation.

Ibn Khaldun, one of the most creditable