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*Name a good thing about capitalism. I can't

kbub
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10/20/2014 6:59:44 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Hi everyone!

I was recently asked if there were any benefits of capitalism. I honestly couldn't think of a *single thing.* Besides maybe the rich being able to acquire more wealth, I can think of nothing.

The common thought is productivity, but that whole idea is messed up. Capitalism causes productivity-for-the-sake-of-productivity (in a free market, one is pressured (forced?) to maximize production in order for one's company/product to survive), which is the cause of the ruthless destruction of the environment, the artificial minimization of wages, and the maximal exploitation of labor (to the extend that they are able to work and the law allows).

This "productivity" causes companies to sell products that *kill* their customers (i.e. Camel, Dunkin Donuts). No one thinks to themselves: "I'm going to make a product that I know is harmful to people today." Obviously. Instead, they are pressured into making products the sell the most effectively (in order to survive), regardless of their impact on people.

Technology does the same thing--researchers investigate what they get grants for, and not what they believe is beneficial to society. Hence, we are continuing to learn more inventive ways to mass-produce food and destroy natural resources, and we also kill millions of rats every year. No one thinks: "Gee, I think I'll kill rats today for research that I know won't directly save a human life." No. They *have to*, because their competitor scientists who are killing nonhuman animals are learning more.

It causes prostitution to be necessary for some people (and in my opinion, when sex is necessary to survive it is no longer consensual). It causes the people that free markets have deemed unproductive or less-productive workers to be homeless, unemployed, or to drop out of school (grades that reflect unproductivity). It created slavery in the first place (no one thinks that slavery is a good thing, but many had argued that slavery was an economic necessity).

If you can think of any benefits, please list them below. Otherwise, feel free to respond.
PotBelliedGeek
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10/20/2014 7:30:29 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/20/2014 6:59:44 PM, kbub wrote:
Hi everyone!

I was recently asked if there were any benefits of capitalism. I honestly couldn't think of a *single thing.* Besides maybe the rich being able to acquire more wealth, I can think of nothing.

The common thought is productivity, but that whole idea is messed up. Capitalism causes productivity-for-the-sake-of-productivity (in a free market, one is pressured (forced?) to maximize production in order for one's company/product to survive), which is the cause of the ruthless destruction of the environment, the artificial minimization of wages, and the maximal exploitation of labor (to the extend that they are able to work and the law allows).

This "productivity" causes companies to sell products that *kill* their customers (i.e. Camel, Dunkin Donuts). No one thinks to themselves: "I'm going to make a product that I know is harmful to people today." Obviously. Instead, they are pressured into making products the sell the most effectively (in order to survive), regardless of their impact on people.

Technology does the same thing--researchers investigate what they get grants for, and not what they believe is beneficial to society. Hence, we are continuing to learn more inventive ways to mass-produce food and destroy natural resources, and we also kill millions of rats every year. No one thinks: "Gee, I think I'll kill rats today for research that I know won't directly save a human life." No. They *have to*, because their competitor scientists who are killing nonhuman animals are learning more.

It causes prostitution to be necessary for some people (and in my opinion, when sex is necessary to survive it is no longer consensual). It causes the people that free markets have deemed unproductive or less-productive workers to be homeless, unemployed, or to drop out of school (grades that reflect unproductivity). It created slavery in the first place (no one thinks that slavery is a good thing, but many had argued that slavery was an economic necessity).

If you can think of any benefits, please list them below. Otherwise, feel free to respond.

What alternate do you propose?
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kbub
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10/20/2014 7:31:59 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/20/2014 7:30:29 PM, PotBelliedGeek wrote:
At 10/20/2014 6:59:44 PM, kbub wrote:
Hi everyone!

I was recently asked if there were any benefits of capitalism. I honestly couldn't think of a *single thing.* Besides maybe the rich being able to acquire more wealth, I can think of nothing.

The common thought is productivity, but that whole idea is messed up. Capitalism causes productivity-for-the-sake-of-productivity (in a free market, one is pressured (forced?) to maximize production in order for one's company/product to survive), which is the cause of the ruthless destruction of the environment, the artificial minimization of wages, and the maximal exploitation of labor (to the extend that they are able to work and the law allows).

This "productivity" causes companies to sell products that *kill* their customers (i.e. Camel, Dunkin Donuts). No one thinks to themselves: "I'm going to make a product that I know is harmful to people today." Obviously. Instead, they are pressured into making products the sell the most effectively (in order to survive), regardless of their impact on people.

Technology does the same thing--researchers investigate what they get grants for, and not what they believe is beneficial to society. Hence, we are continuing to learn more inventive ways to mass-produce food and destroy natural resources, and we also kill millions of rats every year. No one thinks: "Gee, I think I'll kill rats today for research that I know won't directly save a human life." No. They *have to*, because their competitor scientists who are killing nonhuman animals are learning more.

It causes prostitution to be necessary for some people (and in my opinion, when sex is necessary to survive it is no longer consensual). It causes the people that free markets have deemed unproductive or less-productive workers to be homeless, unemployed, or to drop out of school (grades that reflect unproductivity). It created slavery in the first place (no one thinks that slavery is a good thing, but many had argued that slavery was an economic necessity).

If you can think of any benefits, please list them below. Otherwise, feel free to respond.

What alternate do you propose?

Literally anything else. I'm absolutely serious.
Garbanza
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10/20/2014 7:45:51 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
The worst societies I've seen have been really poor, really corrupt, under military control or a combination of all that. I don't know how that fits in with political theory, but life in those countries is far, far worse than life in the US.

Maybe corruption is a type of capitalism? I don't know. Maybe military power is? Maybe a coalition of countries fukking a few others for economic advantage? I honestly don't know if all that stuff is capitalism or democracy or what is it?
bladerunner060
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10/20/2014 8:20:52 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
When you say a good thing about capitalism, do you mean in isolation, or in comparison to other economic theories?

Some do some things better, some do some things worse--there's a bajillion things to account for. I think in general a mostly capitalist system with some socialist elements (e.g. healthcare) has the best track record in terms of creating stable, happy, (comparatively) wealthy people.
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kbub
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10/20/2014 8:43:40 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/20/2014 8:20:52 PM, bladerunner060 wrote:
When you say a good thing about capitalism, do you mean in isolation, or in comparison to other economic theories?

Some do some things better, some do some things worse--there's a bajillion things to account for. I think in general a mostly capitalist system with some socialist elements (e.g. healthcare) has the best track record in terms of creating stable, happy, (comparatively) wealthy people.

Something that is good about capitalism because it is capitalist. Any advantage.

For example, given soialized healthcare, what is the benefit of the capitalist portion of your plan?
bladerunner060
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10/20/2014 8:47:49 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/20/2014 8:43:40 PM, kbub wrote:
At 10/20/2014 8:20:52 PM, bladerunner060 wrote:
When you say a good thing about capitalism, do you mean in isolation, or in comparison to other economic theories?

Some do some things better, some do some things worse--there's a bajillion things to account for. I think in general a mostly capitalist system with some socialist elements (e.g. healthcare) has the best track record in terms of creating stable, happy, (comparatively) wealthy people.

Something that is good about capitalism because it is capitalist. Any advantage.

For example, given soialized healthcare, what is the benefit of the capitalist portion of your plan?

Well, under most socialized health systems, one can still, if one chooses, go outside the socialized system for optional, cosmetic, or alternative therapies. They pay for this with funds acquired through the capitalist side of things. From a choice perspective, this is a good thing.

At the risk of being...tactless? Forgive any clumsiness in the example I'm about to give:

Imagine a wholly socialized healthcare system that has decided that gender dysphoria or GID isn't a real thing, and won't let you use the socialized system to get a reassignment surgery. Would it be BETTER if it did? Sure, but in the meantime, at least those who could afford it could get it, as opposed to not being able to get it at all.
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Khaos_Mage
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10/20/2014 8:55:55 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/20/2014 6:59:44 PM, kbub wrote:

If you can think of any benefits, please list them below. Otherwise, feel free to respond.

Entrepreneurship - the ability to work for yourself (in every meaning of the phrase)
If I own my own business, and provide a service, and have no employees, that negates most of your complaints.

Another is efficiency.
The profit motive encourages efficiency so resources are best used where they do the most good.

These are, of course, all double-edged swords, but so is every other system.
My work here is, finally, done.
PotBelliedGeek
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10/20/2014 8:57:09 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/20/2014 7:31:59 PM, kbub wrote:
At 10/20/2014 7:30:29 PM, PotBelliedGeek wrote:
At 10/20/2014 6:59:44 PM, kbub wrote:
Hi everyone!

I was recently asked if there were any benefits of capitalism. I honestly couldn't think of a *single thing.* Besides maybe the rich being able to acquire more wealth, I can think of nothing.

The common thought is productivity, but that whole idea is messed up. Capitalism causes productivity-for-the-sake-of-productivity (in a free market, one is pressured (forced?) to maximize production in order for one's company/product to survive), which is the cause of the ruthless destruction of the environment, the artificial minimization of wages, and the maximal exploitation of labor (to the extend that they are able to work and the law allows).

This "productivity" causes companies to sell products that *kill* their customers (i.e. Camel, Dunkin Donuts). No one thinks to themselves: "I'm going to make a product that I know is harmful to people today." Obviously. Instead, they are pressured into making products the sell the most effectively (in order to survive), regardless of their impact on people.

Technology does the same thing--researchers investigate what they get grants for, and not what they believe is beneficial to society. Hence, we are continuing to learn more inventive ways to mass-produce food and destroy natural resources, and we also kill millions of rats every year. No one thinks: "Gee, I think I'll kill rats today for research that I know won't directly save a human life." No. They *have to*, because their competitor scientists who are killing nonhuman animals are learning more.

It causes prostitution to be necessary for some people (and in my opinion, when sex is necessary to survive it is no longer consensual). It causes the people that free markets have deemed unproductive or less-productive workers to be homeless, unemployed, or to drop out of school (grades that reflect unproductivity). It created slavery in the first place (no one thinks that slavery is a good thing, but many had argued that slavery was an economic necessity).

If you can think of any benefits, please list them below. Otherwise, feel free to respond.

What alternate do you propose?

Literally anything else. I'm absolutely serious.

Hmmm. So you assert that capitalism is literally the worst economic system in existence?
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kbub
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10/20/2014 9:02:06 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/20/2014 8:47:49 PM, bladerunner060 wrote:
At 10/20/2014 8:43:40 PM, kbub wrote:
At 10/20/2014 8:20:52 PM, bladerunner060 wrote:
When you say a good thing about capitalism, do you mean in isolation, or in comparison to other economic theories?

Some do some things better, some do some things worse--there's a bajillion things to account for. I think in general a mostly capitalist system with some socialist elements (e.g. healthcare) has the best track record in terms of creating stable, happy, (comparatively) wealthy people.

Something that is good about capitalism because it is capitalist. Any advantage.

For example, given soialized healthcare, what is the benefit of the capitalist portion of your plan?

Well, under most socialized health systems, one can still, if one chooses, go outside the socialized system for optional, cosmetic, or alternative therapies. They pay for this with funds acquired through the capitalist side of things. From a choice perspective, this is a good thing.

At the risk of being...tactless? Forgive any clumsiness in the example I'm about to give:

Imagine a wholly socialized healthcare system that has decided that gender dysphoria or GID isn't a real thing, and won't let you use the socialized system to get a reassignment surgery. Would it be BETTER if it did? Sure, but in the meantime, at least those who could afford it could get it, as opposed to not being able to get it at all.

I suppose having multiple providers can be a good thing, even if it's a minor good thing. Because it's the capitalist market that makes reimbursement for GID a necessity, and also for profit healthcare providers will do whatever they can to ensure that they recieve a profit, including refusing to pay for GID related surgery, making them the more likely culprits. Furthermore, there's no real reason in a socialist government to refuse to pay for GID except for cisism, which isn't really a fault of either capitalism or socialism.... But yeah. I'm very impressed--you managed to find one good thing about capitalism. Better than I could do. :)
kbub
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10/20/2014 9:05:02 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/20/2014 8:57:09 PM, PotBelliedGeek wrote:
At 10/20/2014 7:31:59 PM, kbub wrote:
At 10/20/2014 7:30:29 PM, PotBelliedGeek wrote:
At 10/20/2014 6:59:44 PM, kbub wrote:
Hi everyone!

I was recently asked if there were any benefits of capitalism. I honestly couldn't think of a *single thing.* Besides maybe the rich being able to acquire more wealth, I can think of nothing.

The common thought is productivity, but that whole idea is messed up. Capitalism causes productivity-for-the-sake-of-productivity (in a free market, one is pressured (forced?) to maximize production in order for one's company/product to survive), which is the cause of the ruthless destruction of the environment, the artificial minimization of wages, and the maximal exploitation of labor (to the extend that they are able to work and the law allows).

This "productivity" causes companies to sell products that *kill* their customers (i.e. Camel, Dunkin Donuts). No one thinks to themselves: "I'm going to make a product that I know is harmful to people today." Obviously. Instead, they are pressured into making products the sell the most effectively (in order to survive), regardless of their impact on people.

Technology does the same thing--researchers investigate what they get grants for, and not what they believe is beneficial to society. Hence, we are continuing to learn more inventive ways to mass-produce food and destroy natural resources, and we also kill millions of rats every year. No one thinks: "Gee, I think I'll kill rats today for research that I know won't directly save a human life." No. They *have to*, because their competitor scientists who are killing nonhuman animals are learning more.

It causes prostitution to be necessary for some people (and in my opinion, when sex is necessary to survive it is no longer consensual). It causes the people that free markets have deemed unproductive or less-productive workers to be homeless, unemployed, or to drop out of school (grades that reflect unproductivity). It created slavery in the first place (no one thinks that slavery is a good thing, but many had argued that slavery was an economic necessity).

If you can think of any benefits, please list them below. Otherwise, feel free to respond.

What alternate do you propose?

Literally anything else. I'm absolutely serious.

Hmmm. So you assert that capitalism is literally the worst economic system in existence?

I'm hesitant to say so, but I literally can't think of any other system that could be worse. Any change that represents a major shift from capitalism that I can think of would be a better alternative.
PotBelliedGeek
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10/20/2014 9:08:38 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/20/2014 9:05:02 PM, kbub wrote:
At 10/20/2014 8:57:09 PM, PotBelliedGeek wrote:
At 10/20/2014 7:31:59 PM, kbub wrote:
At 10/20/2014 7:30:29 PM, PotBelliedGeek wrote:
At 10/20/2014 6:59:44 PM, kbub wrote:
Hi everyone!

I was recently asked if there were any benefits of capitalism. I honestly couldn't think of a *single thing.* Besides maybe the rich being able to acquire more wealth, I can think of nothing.

The common thought is productivity, but that whole idea is messed up. Capitalism causes productivity-for-the-sake-of-productivity (in a free market, one is pressured (forced?) to maximize production in order for one's company/product to survive), which is the cause of the ruthless destruction of the environment, the artificial minimization of wages, and the maximal exploitation of labor (to the extend that they are able to work and the law allows).

This "productivity" causes companies to sell products that *kill* their customers (i.e. Camel, Dunkin Donuts). No one thinks to themselves: "I'm going to make a product that I know is harmful to people today." Obviously. Instead, they are pressured into making products the sell the most effectively (in order to survive), regardless of their impact on people.

Technology does the same thing--researchers investigate what they get grants for, and not what they believe is beneficial to society. Hence, we are continuing to learn more inventive ways to mass-produce food and destroy natural resources, and we also kill millions of rats every year. No one thinks: "Gee, I think I'll kill rats today for research that I know won't directly save a human life." No. They *have to*, because their competitor scientists who are killing nonhuman animals are learning more.

It causes prostitution to be necessary for some people (and in my opinion, when sex is necessary to survive it is no longer consensual). It causes the people that free markets have deemed unproductive or less-productive workers to be homeless, unemployed, or to drop out of school (grades that reflect unproductivity). It created slavery in the first place (no one thinks that slavery is a good thing, but many had argued that slavery was an economic necessity).

If you can think of any benefits, please list them below. Otherwise, feel free to respond.

What alternate do you propose?

Literally anything else. I'm absolutely serious.

Hmmm. So you assert that capitalism is literally the worst economic system in existence?

I'm hesitant to say so, but I literally can't think of any other system that could be worse. Any change that represents a major shift from capitalism that I can think of would be a better alternative.

Might I suggest Soviet Communism? You might want to start looking for jobs in russia.
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kbub
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10/20/2014 9:10:00 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/20/2014 8:55:55 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 10/20/2014 6:59:44 PM, kbub wrote:

If you can think of any benefits, please list them below. Otherwise, feel free to respond.

Entrepreneurship - the ability to work for yourself (in every meaning of the phrase)
If I own my own business, and provide a service, and have no employees, that negates most of your complaints.

You would still be subservient to the market--consumers, investors (such as banks), competitors. All of the complaints follow through. Furthermore, capitalism isn't friendly to one-person businesses, especially farmers.


Another is efficiency.
The profit motive encourages efficiency so resources are best used where they do the most good.

Yes, but as I mentioned before the efficacy, or productivity, Is actually a bad thing.

These are, of course, all double-edged swords, but so is every other system.

It looks to me like literally anything would be better.
komododragon8
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10/20/2014 9:13:37 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Something that is good about capitalism because it is capitalist. Any advantage.

For example, given soialized healthcare, what is the benefit of the capitalist portion of your plan?

Capitalism can stimulate massive aumounts of economic growth and offers incentive to create more effective products. However it is also known for being unstable. Like every other economic system there are benefits and limitations.
Khaos_Mage
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10/20/2014 9:15:31 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/20/2014 9:10:00 PM, kbub wrote:
At 10/20/2014 8:55:55 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 10/20/2014 6:59:44 PM, kbub wrote:

If you can think of any benefits, please list them below. Otherwise, feel free to respond.

Entrepreneurship - the ability to work for yourself (in every meaning of the phrase)
If I own my own business, and provide a service, and have no employees, that negates most of your complaints.

You would still be subservient to the market--consumers, investors (such as banks), competitors. All of the complaints follow through. Furthermore, capitalism isn't friendly to one-person businesses, especially farmers.

And how aren't workers subservient to the populace in a socialist society?
Where is the incentive to do your job well, when you reap no reward, except personal pride?


Another is efficiency.
The profit motive encourages efficiency so resources are best used where they do the most good.

Yes, but as I mentioned before the efficacy, or productivity, Is actually a bad thing.
Really?
Technology is bad? Better drugs? Better methods?
Do you live in America? Have you heard about the Veteran Assistance hospitals, and the outdated technology they use? There is no incentive to be better or more efficient. In fact, if the government's aim is to just employ people, it wants to be wasteful.

These are, of course, all double-edged swords, but so is every other system.

It looks to me like literally anything would be better.
They all suck, and they all are great.
It depends on who suffers and who benefits.
My work here is, finally, done.
kbub
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10/20/2014 9:20:12 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/20/2014 9:08:38 PM, PotBelliedGeek wrote:
At 10/20/2014 9:05:02 PM, kbub wrote:
At 10/20/2014 8:57:09 PM, PotBelliedGeek wrote:
At 10/20/2014 7:31:59 PM, kbub wrote:
At 10/20/2014 7:30:29 PM, PotBelliedGeek wrote:
At 10/20/2014 6:59:44 PM, kbub wrote:
Hi everyone!

I was recently asked if there were any benefits of capitalism. I honestly couldn't think of a *single thing.* Besides maybe the rich being able to acquire more wealth, I can think of nothing.

The common thought is productivity, but that whole idea is messed up. Capitalism causes productivity-for-the-sake-of-productivity (in a free market, one is pressured (forced?) to maximize production in order for one's company/product to survive), which is the cause of the ruthless destruction of the environment, the artificial minimization of wages, and the maximal exploitation of labor (to the extend that they are able to work and the law allows).

This "productivity" causes companies to sell products that *kill* their customers (i.e. Camel, Dunkin Donuts). No one thinks to themselves: "I'm going to make a product that I know is harmful to people today." Obviously. Instead, they are pressured into making products the sell the most effectively (in order to survive), regardless of their impact on people.

Technology does the same thing--researchers investigate what they get grants for, and not what they believe is beneficial to society. Hence, we are continuing to learn more inventive ways to mass-produce food and destroy natural resources, and we also kill millions of rats every year. No one thinks: "Gee, I think I'll kill rats today for research that I know won't directly save a human life." No. They *have to*, because their competitor scientists who are killing nonhuman animals are learning more.

It causes prostitution to be necessary for some people (and in my opinion, when sex is necessary to survive it is no longer consensual). It causes the people that free markets have deemed unproductive or less-productive workers to be homeless, unemployed, or to drop out of school (grades that reflect unproductivity). It created slavery in the first place (no one thinks that slavery is a good thing, but many had argued that slavery was an economic necessity).

If you can think of any benefits, please list them below. Otherwise, feel free to respond.

What alternate do you propose?

Literally anything else. I'm absolutely serious.

Hmmm. So you assert that capitalism is literally the worst economic system in existence?

I'm hesitant to say so, but I literally can't think of any other system that could be worse. Any change that represents a major shift from capitalism that I can think of would be a better alternative.

Might I suggest Soviet Communism? You might want to start looking for jobs in russia.

Facism, starvation, and violations of humans rights are all very bad things, but I'm not sure they are relevant. For one thing, nothing of this was actual Marxism-Leninism, so the model seems fine. For another, bad things that occurred in accounted attempting to follow a particular model are not necessarily part of that model. For example, one could point out that Hitler was part of a capitalist economy; however (unlike many other violations of human rights), I'd blame the Nazi's violations of rights on political wrongs. Similarly, the fact that Stalin was really evil, provided very little ability for citizens to access food, stifled opposition, and proceded to commit terrible atrocities isn't that relevant to the conversation.

So, are you suggesting that a capitalist model is better than a Communist model? If so, that's fine. I'd be happy to hear your argument. But we should probably leave the baggage of incessant components and violations of human rights out. Or else Capitalism would be even worse off, because one can trace nearly every war to capitalist ideology.
Khaos_Mage
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10/20/2014 9:24:17 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/20/2014 6:59:44 PM, kbub wrote:

Have you heard of Lyft?

They rival the current cab companies, because they give better service.
What is wrong with that?

Do other economic systems allow for this?
My work here is, finally, done.
Wocambs
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10/20/2014 9:26:25 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/20/2014 8:55:55 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 10/20/2014 6:59:44 PM, kbub wrote:

If you can think of any benefits, please list them below. Otherwise, feel free to respond.

Entrepreneurship - the ability to work for yourself (in every meaning of the phrase)
If I own my own business, and provide a service, and have no employees, that negates most of your complaints.

This does appear to avoid the hierarchical workplace, but extolling the virtues of eliminating hierarchy appears to be a strange tactic for a capitalist, no? Shouldn't you be like 'Capitalism produces economic elites, who are essential for maintaining the industries of over-priced alcohol, high-class escorts, and luxury beach homes'?

Another is efficiency.
The profit motive encourages efficiency so resources are best used where they do the most good.

E.g. when medical researchers from different companies independently research the same compounds, because the profit incentive discourages sharing research.

These are, of course, all double-edged swords, but so is every other system.

I don't like this double-edged sword notion. It seems to relegate political philosophy to the same level of legitimacy as deciding what colour the carpet should be. If we are interested in establishing a 'just' economy, then the only sting we should feel is the passing of tyranny.
Contra
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10/20/2014 9:32:17 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Capitalism is a system based upon a foundation of economic freedom. As both history and the scholarly evidence have shown, capitalism (when properly "implemented") produces a wide yield of benefits, including:

(1) Higher per capita income
(2) Longer life expectancies
(3) Higher economic growth
(4) Improvement for living standards (especially for the poor)
(5) Economic mobility

Issues in American Economic History. Miller and Sexton. Print.
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thett3
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10/20/2014 9:35:28 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
I mean, given the fact that mixed capitalist economies undeniably produce the best outcomes, the burden is on you to advocate a superior system. What would you prefer?
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: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
thett3
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10/20/2014 9:36:36 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/20/2014 9:35:28 PM, thett3 wrote:
I mean, given the fact that mixed capitalist economies undeniably produce the best outcomes, the burden is on you to advocate a superior system. What would you prefer?

Undeniably produce the best outcomes empirically I mean to say. It's possible that this is due to some other lurking variable, but I doubt it.
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: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
Garbanza
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10/20/2014 9:36:42 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/20/2014 9:20:12 PM, kbub wrote:
Facism, starvation, and violations of humans rights are all very bad things, but I'm not sure they are relevant.

See, this is why I never understand political and economic theory. Resource distribution and human rights are ALL that matter. People starving and being forced into ghettoes and to give up their children matter. I agree that it's not obvious what political theory is responsible, but that means that theories are irrelevant not that starvation is.
kbub
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10/20/2014 9:38:52 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/20/2014 9:15:31 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 10/20/2014 9:10:00 PM, kbub wrote:
At 10/20/2014 8:55:55 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 10/20/2014 6:59:44 PM, kbub wrote:

If you can think of any benefits, please list them below. Otherwise, feel free to respond.

Entrepreneurship - the ability to work for yourself (in every meaning of the phrase)
If I own my own business, and provide a service, and have no employees, that negates most of your complaints.

You would still be subservient to the market--consumers, investors (such as banks), competitors. All of the complaints follow through. Furthermore, capitalism isn't friendly to one-person businesses, especially farmers.

And how aren't workers subservient to the populace in a socialist society?
Where is the incentive to do your job well, when you reap no reward, except personal pride?

It's not about incentives. That's the old way of thinking--that somehow the government or companies will treat you like a parent does a child, constantly telling you how to act. Or more like a master does a slave, because if you disobey you may not be able to eat.

I say give up the whole project of institution incentives altogether. People will do what they think is right. There is no more coersion to do particular actions: what's left is people chosing to do what they think is best.

For some, that would be researching. But you can expect that they'd research what they believe is best to research, not what gets them money. But no more ignoring important problems that aren't economically maximizing. People can do what thy want to do.

Look at how Google operates as a business--free food for everyone, less externally-insentivized projects, an a TON of personal autonomy and self-directed projects. People are more motivated than ever, and not for some bonus or paycheck. And look at Wikipedia. Firefox. All of the companies know the power of personal autonomy and self-motivation.

Having people live for money can indeed maximize productivity. But it removes the component of ethics from ones actions, which I argue should be one's primary motivation, next to genuine interest and joy.



Another is efficiency.
The profit motive encourages efficiency so resources are best used where they do the most good.

Yes, but as I mentioned before the efficacy, or productivity, Is actually a bad thing.
Really?
Technology is bad?

Technology for technology's sake is bad.

Better drugs? Better methods?

None of that is excluded.

Do you live in America? Have you heard about the Veteran Assistance hospitals, and the outdated technology they use?

That sounds bad. I'm sure people aren't chosing to do private companies because they are more interesting. They are more profitable. It is capitalism that is the cause of this healthcare inequality.

There is no incentive to be better or more efficient. In fact, if the government's aim is to just employ people, it wants to be wasteful.

All of this should be explained above. If we get rid of systematic insentives, people are free to do what they think is right, meaning that many more will choose good causes like working at a veterans' hospital.

These are, of course, all double-edged swords, but so is every other system.

It looks to me like literally anything would be better.
They all suck, and they all are great.
It depends on who suffers and who benefits.

That is especially true of capitalism, in which inequality is the backbone.
1harderthanyouthink
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10/20/2014 9:40:42 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
A friend of mine likes to say this: "Let's face it, if we didn't live in a capitalistic society, and we lived in a communist society, we don't have smartphones."

Capitalism, generally speaking, makes the people's lives more luxurious.
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Khaos_Mage
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10/20/2014 9:41:20 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/20/2014 9:26:25 PM, Wocambs wrote:
At 10/20/2014 8:55:55 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 10/20/2014 6:59:44 PM, kbub wrote:

If you can think of any benefits, please list them below. Otherwise, feel free to respond.

Entrepreneurship - the ability to work for yourself (in every meaning of the phrase)
If I own my own business, and provide a service, and have no employees, that negates most of your complaints.

This does appear to avoid the hierarchical workplace, but extolling the virtues of eliminating hierarchy appears to be a strange tactic for a capitalist, no? Shouldn't you be like 'Capitalism produces economic elites, who are essential for maintaining the industries of over-priced alcohol, high-class escorts, and luxury beach homes'?

You mean, jobs and wealth are created for meeting a demand in the market?
Yes, there are issues, but how can you ignore corrupt governments living higher than their socialistic peers? In any system, there is abuse.
However, I posit that capitalism is the easiest, if not one of the easiest systems to rectify the situation, though it isn't an easy task.

But, if you feel you should be able to tell me what I think and how I should defend things, go right ahead, Mr. Ego.

Another is efficiency.
The profit motive encourages efficiency so resources are best used where they do the most good.

E.g. when medical researchers from different companies independently research the same compounds, because the profit incentive discourages sharing research.

And if some of those outfits are looking at other research?
Five companies trying to cure the same disease is wasteful, but what if those companies are also looking at things no one else thought to? I mean, does government care enough to fund ALS?

These are, of course, all double-edged swords, but so is every other system.

I don't like this double-edged sword notion. It seems to relegate political philosophy to the same level of legitimacy as deciding what colour the carpet should be. If we are interested in establishing a 'just' economy, then the only sting we should feel is the passing of tyranny.

All you are doing is replacing one tyrant with another.
Do you want it to be mega-corporation, of which society can overthrow if they actually cared to, by, you know, not being materialistic?
Or government handing out everything you need, and everything you produce just goes to the rulers?
Or a commune, where the lazy are dependent upon everyone else?
My work here is, finally, done.
kbub
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10/20/2014 9:42:19 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/20/2014 9:36:42 PM, Garbanza wrote:
At 10/20/2014 9:20:12 PM, kbub wrote:
Facism, starvation, and violations of humans rights are all very bad things, but I'm not sure they are relevant.

See, this is why I never understand political and economic theory. Resource distribution and human rights are ALL that matter. People starving and being forced into ghettoes and to give up their children matter. I agree that it's not obvious what political theory is responsible, but that means that theories are irrelevant not that starvation is.

Sorry, I said starvation but I meant famine and distribution problems. Communism demands equal distribution of food. The Soviet Union didn't do that. Also, there was a big famine. There were hundreds of famine-based rebellions just before the Soviet Union, so that's not surprising.

Anyway, that's what I mean by relevant. Obviously starvation is very relevant. Just not in this particular example.
Garbanza
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10/20/2014 9:44:18 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/20/2014 9:40:42 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
A friend of mine likes to say this: "Let's face it, if we didn't live in a capitalistic society, and we lived in a communist society, we don't have smartphones."

Capitalism, generally speaking, makes the people's lives more luxurious.

No but you have to think of the system in a global way. The people who are actually making the cell phones, or worse, the people unemployed in that society do not have luxurious lives and that's all part of it. If there wasn't high unemployment in those countries, wages and conditions wouldn't be so low and cell phones so cheap.
kbub
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10/20/2014 9:45:23 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/20/2014 9:40:42 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
A friend of mine likes to say this: "Let's face it, if we didn't live in a capitalistic society, and we lived in a communist society, we don't have smartphones."

Capitalism, generally speaking, makes the people's lives more luxurious.

It makes the rich people's lives more luxurious. I'm sure the thousands of minimal wage workers are thrilled that Americans and Europeans are enjoying their smartphones. Apple is really famous for human rights violations in their factories. This "luxury" comes at a cost--just not for you.
1harderthanyouthink
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10/20/2014 9:46:31 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/20/2014 9:44:18 PM, Garbanza wrote:
At 10/20/2014 9:40:42 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
A friend of mine likes to say this: "Let's face it, if we didn't live in a capitalistic society, and we lived in a communist society, we don't have smartphones."

Capitalism, generally speaking, makes the people's lives more luxurious.

No but you have to think of the system in a global way. The people who are actually making the cell phones, or worse, the people unemployed in that society do not have luxurious lives and that's all part of it. If there wasn't high unemployment in those countries, wages and conditions wouldn't be so low and cell phones so cheap.

On a global scale, yes, peoples' lives are made worse by our capitalist ways. A better way for me to say that would be "it makes the wealth-controlling people's lives more luxurious.
"It's awfully considerate of you to think of me here,
And I'm much obliged to you for making it clear - that I'm not here."

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1harderthanyouthink
Posts: 13,102
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10/20/2014 9:47:52 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/20/2014 9:45:23 PM, kbub wrote:
At 10/20/2014 9:40:42 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
A friend of mine likes to say this: "Let's face it, if we didn't live in a capitalistic society, and we lived in a communist society, we don't have smartphones."

Capitalism, generally speaking, makes the people's lives more luxurious.

It makes the rich people's lives more luxurious. I'm sure the thousands of minimal wage workers are thrilled that Americans and Europeans are enjoying their smartphones. Apple is really famous for human rights violations in their factories. This "luxury" comes at a cost--just not for you.

I never said I like what our system does.
"It's awfully considerate of you to think of me here,
And I'm much obliged to you for making it clear - that I'm not here."

-Syd Barrett

DDO Risk King