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The True Causes of American Wars

Reasoning
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4/19/2010 6:47:24 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
By SEK3,

War of 1812:

True Cause - US "Warhawks" sought a land grab in Canada.

Pretext - "impressment of American seamen" in ships running the British blockade of Napoleon. (True but trivial in comparison to war and its cost in lives and freedom.)

Mexican War:

True Cause - U.S. Southern interests sought land grab of Texas and other Mexican territories to form more "slave states" to balance of new Northern "free states".

Pretext - Mexico attacked Republic of Texas and thus U.S. soil. (Probably not; and Texas was not U.S. soil back then.)

War Between The States:

True Cause - North wished to enslave the South; South (justifiably) wished to be free of the North.

Pretext - Abolition of slavery in South. (North kept slavery in Northern territory; also, hard-core abolitionists supported both Southern secession and abolition of slavery as same issue of freedom.)

Spanish-American War:

True Cause - U.S. interests grabbed Spanish colonies (Cuba, Philippines) for exploitation and turned the U.S. State into an old-world empire.

Pretext - U.S. battleship Maine was "attacked" in a Cuban harbor. (Even though innocent, Spain apologized anyway and bent over backwards to avoid war.)

World War I:

True Cause - U.S. interests, especially bankers, bet on Great Britain and moved U.S. in to save their investments when Russians pulled out leaving Germany one front.

Pretext - German U-Boats attacked British ship carrying Americans; declaration of unrestricted submarine warfare zones by Germany. (Trivial Relative to war, and U.S. ships should have "taken their chances" if they insisted on huge risks for high profits by running the blockades. GB was blockading Germany and other interests wanted to replay "War of 1812" and attack Britain.)

World War II (Europe, 1939):

True Cause - Britain gave Poland a "blank-check treaty" if they would hold out 99%-German Danzig from Germany - the last adjustment of the Versailles Treaty (ending WWI) that penalized Germany. Also, Britain and France refused alliance with Russia against the "fascist menace" (although Bolshevik Russia was seriously threatened by Nazi aggression, unlike Danzig-less Poland, not to mention distant Great Britain) and thus pushed USSR to German side in fear. Poland was overwhelmingly outnumbered and still refused to return German Danzig.

Pretext - Germany invaded Poland without provocation. (Nonsense; allied war propaganda. Poland was so surprised that they were fully mobilized an standing on the border on September 1,1939.)

World War II (Pacific, 1941):

True Cause - The United Sates New Deal administration sought entry to the European theatre (above) and required an "attack" since 80% of Americans opposed "bailing out Britain" again. Japanese were strangled by British blockade aided by aided by "neutral" U.S. ships; Japanese funds in U.S. were seized by U.S. government, and Japanese emissaries for peace were insulted and scorned.

Pretext - Japan attacked Pearl Harbor naval installation - few if any innocent U.S. civilians were injured. (Japan knew it would be dragged into the war and would lose; it struck first to delay the inevitable. Japanese "bushido" code was offended - deliberately and provocatively - by U.S. statists.)

Korean War:

True Cause - Artificial division of Korea (WWII) between a Northern communist dictatorship ad a Southern, Pro-U.S. State dictatorship; U.S. entered to prop up colonies France and Japan were abandoning in in Southeast Asia for variety of corporate-interest and Soviet-containment reasons.

Pretext - Communist aggression with involved China and Russia. (China attacked the U.S. after American troops threatened to cross the Yalu River into China. Russia sat back and sold arms - as the U.S. had done before landing troops.)

Vietnam War:

True Cause - U.S. attempted to keep former French Indo-China from passing into Eastern bloc. (See Korean War, this was a continuation from 1954.) As became obvious immediately after, when China switched over to U.S. side, "Communist" were not necessarily threats to U.S.

Pretext - Defend South Vietnamese , who wanted Western-style democracy, from Communist form of statists. (South Vietnamese were split and here was never anything even as "free" as democracy there under the various generals and the Diem dictatorship.)

El Salvador:

True Cause - Certain U.S. industries and banks have heavy investments in Latin American countries and fear their expropriation by Communist or Marxist governments.

Pretext - Salvadorans want democracy not communism. (Salvadorans voted in U.S.-monitored election and got a genuine fascist government [ARENA party of Roberto D'Aubuisson] and massive murder of "democrats" - let alone communists - by ARENA death squads. The U.S. then overruled the results of an election they had demnded in the first place.)

Iraq War I:

True Cause - U.S. sought to preserve its interests in Saudi Arabian oil fields, fearing that if Kuwait fell and former U.S. ally Saddam Hussein enriched himself from oil profits there, tn Saudi Arabia might be next.

Pretext - Iraq invaded Kuwait (separated from Iraq by British in 1932) to regain its port and to seize oil field on the the thery that they were using a slant drill to "drink the milkshake" of Iraq's al-Rumaila fields.

Afghan War:

True Cause - U.S. and U.K. attempt to secure Afghanistan to protect a proposed natural gas pipeline from Turkmenistan to Pakistan and India passing right through the Kandahar province. This, in an effort to counteract perceived Russo-Iranian energy trade in the region.

Pretext - Taliban gave comfort and aid to 9/11 attack coordinator Osama bin Laden, oppressed women, and served as a training haven for Islamic fundamentalist terrorists.

Iraq War II:

True Cause - U.S. continued to perceive Iraq as a threat to its oil interests in the middle east, especially after Iraq's scorched-earth retreat from the Kuwaiti oil fields in 1991. In addition, personal grudge may have played a part, since the sitting president's father had once been targeted for assassination by Hussein.

Pretext - Saddam Hussein's repeated scofflawing of numerous U.N. resolutions and rumours that Iraq still pursued weapons of mass destruction.
"What we really ought to ask the liberal, before we even begin addressing his agenda, is this: In what kind of society would he be a conservative?" - Joseph Sobran
InsertNameHere
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4/19/2010 6:51:16 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
I still find it amusing that in part, the US actually funded the Taliban as a force to keep communism out of Afghanistan, yet about 30 years later they go in and dispose of them. Oh, I love double standards. :)
Kleptin
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4/19/2010 6:56:03 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
That's funny. I was taught most of these "truths" in school and never even heard of some of these "pretexts".
: At 5/2/2010 2:43:54 PM, innomen wrote:
It isn't about finding a theory, philosophy or doctrine and thinking it's the answer, but a practical application of one's experiences that is the answer.

: At 10/28/2010 2:40:07 PM, jharry wrote: I have already been given the greatest Gift that anyone could ever hope for [Life], I would consider myself selfish if I expected anything more.
InsertNameHere
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4/19/2010 7:00:54 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/19/2010 6:56:03 PM, Kleptin wrote:
That's funny. I was taught most of these "truths" in school and never even heard of some of these "pretexts".

Well one up to you then. ^^
mongeese
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4/19/2010 7:04:11 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/19/2010 6:47:24 PM, Reasoning wrote:
Mexican War:

True Cause - U.S. Southern interests sought land grab of Texas and other Mexican territories to form more "slave states" to balance of new Northern "free states".

Pretext - Mexico attacked Republic of Texas and thus U.S. soil. (Probably not; and Texas was not U.S. soil back then.)

Um, http://en.wikipedia.org...

Texas was U.S. soil in 1845; the war started in 1846.

Other than that, for the most part, I agree with you.
Reasoning
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4/19/2010 7:04:48 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/19/2010 6:56:03 PM, Kleptin wrote:
That's funny. I was taught most of these "truths" in school and never even heard of some of these "pretexts".

You can thank revisionist history for that.
"What we really ought to ask the liberal, before we even begin addressing his agenda, is this: In what kind of society would he be a conservative?" - Joseph Sobran
Tamikajones
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4/19/2010 7:10:42 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/19/2010 6:47:24 PM, Reasoning wrote:
Pretext - "impressment of American seamen"

thats what she said
: At 4/21/2010 5:49:24 PM, banker wrote:
: Mirza at least no one is misunderstanding santa...!!
:
:Hitler had sexual issues just like muhammud..!!
Volkov
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4/19/2010 8:04:31 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
I'll agree with most, though you're making it way too simple. Wars and their causes are complicated matters, full of a differing goals and expectations. You can't boil them down to a few sentences.

But, the Afghan War one.. are you saying 9/11 was a US-government orchestrated conspiracy, or did you just overlook that because you copypasta'd it like usual?
Kleptin
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4/19/2010 8:05:47 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/19/2010 7:10:42 PM, Tamikajones wrote:
At 4/19/2010 6:47:24 PM, Reasoning wrote:
Pretext - "impressment of American seamen"

thats what she said

^LOL
: At 5/2/2010 2:43:54 PM, innomen wrote:
It isn't about finding a theory, philosophy or doctrine and thinking it's the answer, but a practical application of one's experiences that is the answer.

: At 10/28/2010 2:40:07 PM, jharry wrote: I have already been given the greatest Gift that anyone could ever hope for [Life], I would consider myself selfish if I expected anything more.
Xer
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4/19/2010 8:06:47 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/19/2010 8:04:31 PM, Volkov wrote:
But, the Afghan War one.. are you saying 9/11 was a US-government orchestrated conspiracy, or did you just overlook that because you copypasta'd it like usual?

"9/11 attack coordinator Osama bin Laden"

Did you even read the Afghan War one?
Reasoning
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4/19/2010 8:07:09 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/19/2010 8:04:31 PM, Volkov wrote:
But, the Afghan War one.. are you saying 9/11 was a US-government orchestrated conspiracy

Where did you get that idea from?
"What we really ought to ask the liberal, before we even begin addressing his agenda, is this: In what kind of society would he be a conservative?" - Joseph Sobran
Volkov
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4/19/2010 8:09:14 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
"Taliban gave comfort and aid to 9/11 attack coordinator Osama bin Laden, oppressed women, and served as a training haven for Islamic fundamentalist terrorists."

That's the so-called "pretext," which in this copypasta is meant to show the lie/misdirection that the US government used to start the war.

It's a legitimate question, and I'm just asking your opinion.
Reasoning
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4/19/2010 8:11:03 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/19/2010 8:09:14 PM, Volkov wrote:
That's the so-called "pretext," which in this copypasta

I wish it was a copypasta. I had it in pamphlet form and had to type it up.
"What we really ought to ask the liberal, before we even begin addressing his agenda, is this: In what kind of society would he be a conservative?" - Joseph Sobran
Kleptin
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4/19/2010 8:12:28 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/19/2010 8:11:03 PM, Reasoning wrote:
At 4/19/2010 8:09:14 PM, Volkov wrote:
That's the so-called "pretext," which in this copypasta

I wish it was a copypasta. I had it in pamphlet form and had to type it up.

in b4 a motivational that says "Pamphlets: The ultimate source of truth" XD
: At 5/2/2010 2:43:54 PM, innomen wrote:
It isn't about finding a theory, philosophy or doctrine and thinking it's the answer, but a practical application of one's experiences that is the answer.

: At 10/28/2010 2:40:07 PM, jharry wrote: I have already been given the greatest Gift that anyone could ever hope for [Life], I would consider myself selfish if I expected anything more.
Volkov
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4/19/2010 8:12:50 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/19/2010 8:11:03 PM, Reasoning wrote:
I wish it was a copypasta. I had it in pamphlet form and had to type it up.

That still counts as copypasta.

Answer the question.
Volkov
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4/19/2010 8:44:27 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/19/2010 8:12:50 PM, Volkov wrote:
Answer the question.

Or you could ignore me, for whatever reason. Truther.
Xer
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4/19/2010 8:52:55 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/19/2010 8:44:27 PM, Volkov wrote:
Truther.

Oh no! Someone doesn't accept the official government explanation of an event! The government has proven to lie and mislead throughout history, especially to get the US into wars. They lied about WMDs in Iraq to get us into a war with Iraq. LBJ lied about the Gulf of Tonkin to escalate the Vietnam War. McKinley lied that the USS Maine was sunk by a Spanish mine to get us into the Spanish-American War. As Randolph Bourne said: war is the health of the state.

"I did not have sexual relations with that woman."

Sure, whatever you say.
Volkov
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4/19/2010 8:56:33 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/19/2010 8:52:55 PM, Nags wrote:
Sure, whatever you say.

So you're saying you're a Truther, Nags?

I was just kidding with Reasoning, just curious about his views. But you... I'm going to torture you over this, if you are one.

Make my day, seriously.
Rezzealaux
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4/19/2010 8:58:35 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/19/2010 8:56:33 PM, Volkov wrote:
But you... I'm going to torture you over this, if you are one.

This is relevant to my interests.
: If you weren't new here, you'd know not to feed me such attention. This is like an orgasm in my brain right now. *hehe, my name is in a title, hehe* (http://www.debate.org...)

Just in case I get into some BS with FREEDO again about how he's NOT a narcissist.

"The law is there to destroy evil under the constitutional government."
So... what's there to destroy evil inside of and above the constitutional government?
Xer
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4/19/2010 9:10:53 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
I'm glad you avoided refuting anything I've said about government lies, especially the lies that have historically propelled us into war.

At 4/19/2010 8:56:33 PM, Volkov wrote:
So you're saying you're a Truther, Nags?

I never claimed to be a Truther.

I was just kidding with Reasoning, just curious about his views. But you... I'm going to torture you over this, if you are one.

Make my day, seriously.

I'm neither a believer in the 9/11 Commission Report nor the Truther movement. Government has a history of lying and a great incentive to lie. Truthers simply make up their own stories and conspiracies. Neither side has good arguments.

"I don't believe anything the government tells me."
~George Carlin
Volkov
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4/19/2010 9:16:04 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/19/2010 9:10:53 PM, Nags wrote:
I'm glad you avoided refuting anything I've said about government lies, especially the lies that have historically propelled us into war.

That's because I don't disagree. Why would I refute something I agree with? But it doesn't mean all wars are caused by government conspiracies to lie/plot/etc.

I'm neither a believer in the 9/11 Commission Report nor the Truther movement. Government has a history of lying and a great incentive to lie. Truthers simply make up their own stories and conspiracies. Neither side has good arguments.

What are your own conclusions about 9/11 then?
Xer
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4/19/2010 9:18:13 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/19/2010 9:16:04 PM, Volkov wrote:
That's because I don't disagree. Why would I refute something I agree with?

I just wanted you to acknowledge that the government does have a history of lying, a history of lying to get the country into war, and an incentive to lie.

But it doesn't mean all wars are caused by government conspiracies to lie/plot/etc.

I never claimed as such.

What are your own conclusions about 9/11 then?

I don't know, there is not sufficient information. The government probably has the answers. They just aren't telling the public.
Volkov
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4/19/2010 9:20:24 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/19/2010 9:18:13 PM, Nags wrote:
I just wanted you to acknowledge that the government does have a history of lying, a history of lying to get the country into war, and an incentive to lie.

I think I did earlier.

I never claimed as such.

Never said you did - just stating the obvious.

I don't know, there is not sufficient information. The government probably has the answers. They just aren't telling the public.

Fair enough.
Xer
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4/19/2010 9:23:34 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/19/2010 9:20:24 PM, Volkov wrote:
I think I did earlier.

No, you didn't. At least not in this thread.

Never said you did - just stating the obvious.

1+1=2

Fair enough.

Did I make your day?
Volkov
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4/19/2010 9:31:00 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/19/2010 9:23:34 PM, Nags wrote:
No, you didn't. At least not in this thread.

Did so - when I said initially that I agreed with Reasoning's list, or at least a lot of it. Maybe it wasn't implied enough.

Did I make your day?

You dodged the bullet today.
Xer
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4/19/2010 9:36:12 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/19/2010 9:31:00 PM, Volkov wrote:
Did so - when I said initially that I agreed with Reasoning's list, or at least a lot of it. Maybe it wasn't implied enough.

It wasn't implied at all.

You dodged the bullet today.

Take my quote out of your sig. It's slightly irritating.
Volkov
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4/19/2010 9:43:54 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/19/2010 9:36:12 PM, Nags wrote:
It wasn't implied at all.

Well, now you know.

Take my quote out of your sig. It's slightly irritating.

You're such a spoil sport.
MikeLoviN
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4/19/2010 9:46:04 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Although this was copypasta, I make the assumption that you are capable of defending it yourself.

At 4/19/2010 6:47:24 PM, Reasoning wrote:
World War II (Europe, 1939):

True Cause - Britain gave Poland a "blank-check treaty" if they would hold out 99%-German Danzig from Germany - the last adjustment of the Versailles Treaty (ending WWI) that penalized Germany. Also, Britain and France refused alliance with Russia against the "fascist menace" (although Bolshevik Russia was seriously threatened by Nazi aggression, unlike Danzig-less Poland,

haha, and unlike Czechoslovakia without the Sudetenland too I suppose?? You know damn well what happened next... or is that just the conspiracy theory to you? Do you deny the fact that it was always Hitler's intention to conquer all of Europe?

not to mention distant Great Britain) and thus pushed USSR to German side in fear. Poland was overwhelmingly outnumbered and still refused to return German Danzig.

German Danzig? If you want to go that route then I feel obliged to point out that Danzig was, from the 10th to the 19th century, a part of Poland (excluding the 140 years that it was a territory of the Teutonic Order). Right up until it was annexed by Prussia (http://en.wikipedia.org...).

Pretext - Germany invaded Poland without provocation. (Nonsense; allied war propaganda. Poland was so surprised that they were fully mobilized an standing on the border on September 1,1939.)

The fact that Poland was preparing for the likelihood of a war with Germany doesn't change the fact that the invasion was baseless and nothing more than a Nazi land grab. Quite frankly, the insinuation you make here (that the invasion was somehow a response to a provocation) is both ridiculous and offensive. It has been well established that Nazi propagandists lead a series of false flag attacks (see Operation Himmler) in an attempt to rile up support for an invasion among the German public.

World War II (Pacific, 1941):

True Cause - The United Sates New Deal administration sought entry to the European theatre (above) and required an "attack" since 80% of Americans opposed "bailing out Britain" again. Japanese were strangled by British blockade aided by aided by "neutral" U.S. ships; Japanese funds in U.S. were seized by U.S. government, and Japanese emissaries for peace were insulted and scorned.

sought entry? Explain this to me. Why the hell would the US have wanted to enter a European war? What interests did they have to protect?

Wherever you got this information from has also conveniently left out the part of the Japanese invasion of China.. which happened to be a large part of the reason for the US blockades of Japan.

Pretext - Japan attacked Pearl Harbor naval installation - few if any innocent U.S. civilians were injured. (Japan knew it would be dragged into the war and would lose; it struck first to delay the inevitable. Japanese "bushido" code was offended - deliberately and provocatively - by U.S. statists.)

WHAT? All you (or whoever) did was take the events that lead up to the attack on Pearl Harbor, give them a little antagonizing twist, and label them as the 'true cause' and everything thereafter as being nothing but a pretext.

Call me crazy, but I find it both ironic and laughable that someone who values freedom as much as yourself would be all for handing over that freedom to a foreign state so long as it avoids armed conflict.
Volkov
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4/19/2010 9:49:02 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Good job, Mike Lovin, but I doubt Reasoning will respond with any real refutes - it is copypasta, after all.