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Why a fetus is not a person ?

Lupo
Posts: 90
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10/24/2014 5:38:12 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
This question started on a topic about abortion, but I would like to discuss better on a new topic.
I'm posting here because I imagine it involves laws and rights.

The question is, why do you think a fetus is not a person? (Please, answers with bases)
Khaos_Mage
Posts: 23,214
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10/24/2014 6:48:56 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/24/2014 5:38:12 AM, Lupo wrote:
This question started on a topic about abortion, but I would like to discuss better on a new topic.
I'm posting here because I imagine it involves laws and rights.

The question is, why do you think a fetus is not a person? (Please, answers with bases)

Are you asking if people believe that a fetus is not human or if a fetus is not legally a person?
My work here is, finally, done.
Lupo
Posts: 90
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10/24/2014 7:17:34 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/24/2014 6:48:56 AM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 10/24/2014 5:38:12 AM, Lupo wrote:
This question started on a topic about abortion, but I would like to discuss better on a new topic.
I'm posting here because I imagine it involves laws and rights.

The question is, why do you think a fetus is not a person? (Please, answers with bases)

Are you asking if people believe that a fetus is not human or if a fetus is not legally a person?

Why a fetus should be considered legally a human or not ?
Khaos_Mage
Posts: 23,214
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10/24/2014 7:27:33 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/24/2014 7:17:34 AM, Lupo wrote:
At 10/24/2014 6:48:56 AM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 10/24/2014 5:38:12 AM, Lupo wrote:
This question started on a topic about abortion, but I would like to discuss better on a new topic.
I'm posting here because I imagine it involves laws and rights.

The question is, why do you think a fetus is not a person? (Please, answers with bases)

Are you asking if people believe that a fetus is not human or if a fetus is not legally a person?

Why a fetus should be considered legally a human or not ?

In a nutshell, because it cannot survive on its own.

If we declared it a person, and it had rights, is a miscarriage manslaughter? The miscarriage was due to stress or other negligence.
Assuming the first miscarriage isn't, is the fourth? The first could just be medical, but knowing that, you still continue to get pregnant...
Is drinking, smoking, stress, or malnutrition considered child abuse? These things are bad for the baby.
The mother becomes a slave to the fetus, which is especially true in cases of rape and incest. There is no reason to suggest the law should say "oh, you were raped, then it is okay to murder an innocent person".
My work here is, finally, done.
paininthenuts
Posts: 161
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10/24/2014 7:54:44 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/24/2014 5:38:12 AM, Lupo wrote:
This question started on a topic about abortion, but I would like to discuss better on a new topic.
I'm posting here because I imagine it involves laws and rights.

The question is, why do you think a fetus is not a person? (Please, answers with bases)

The same reason that catching a sperm in a condom is NOT morally wrong. The fact is the we live on a planet horribly overpopulated with human beings, so why the hell are we worried about a few fetus's ?

I am far more worried about mans inability to treat our animal colleagues properly, so let's stop worrying about something that hasn't even been born
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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10/24/2014 7:55:36 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/24/2014 5:38:12 AM, Lupo wrote:
This question started on a topic about abortion, but I would like to discuss better on a new topic.
I'm posting here because I imagine it involves laws and rights.

The question is, why do you think a fetus is not a person? (Please, answers with bases)

Well, if you're talking "legally" and about what "is" rather than what "ought to be" the law states it. However many would say that is an appeal to authority (if you imply that is the way it should be because the law states it).

If you're talking about personhood as a philosophical concept, that will vary. There is no scientific point at which personhood is achieved. That is because rights do not really exist outside of our imagination (just like definitions of words). Since they are completely defined and created within the imagination of man, the point at which they begin is also completely made up within our imaginations.

Therefore, it will vary from person to person and belief to belief.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
Lupo
Posts: 90
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10/24/2014 8:13:26 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/24/2014 7:54:44 AM, paininthenuts wrote:
At 10/24/2014 5:38:12 AM, Lupo wrote:
This question started on a topic about abortion, but I would like to discuss better on a new topic.
I'm posting here because I imagine it involves laws and rights.

The question is, why do you think a fetus is not a person? (Please, answers with bases)

The same reason that catching a sperm in a condom is NOT morally wrong. The fact is the we live on a planet horribly overpopulated with human beings, so why the hell are we worried about a few fetus's ?

I am far more worried about mans inability to treat our animal colleagues properly, so let's stop worrying about something that hasn't even been born

A sperm is quite different from a fetus, and "Why i'm worried about a few fetus ?", "Why i'm worried about a few jews ? ", "Why i'm worried about a few women ? ", "Why i'm worried about a few christians ? ".

I'm worried about people not seeing any problem in kill someone.
Lupo
Posts: 90
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10/24/2014 8:22:29 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/24/2014 7:27:33 AM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 10/24/2014 7:17:34 AM, Lupo wrote:
At 10/24/2014 6:48:56 AM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 10/24/2014 5:38:12 AM, Lupo wrote:
This question started on a topic about abortion, but I would like to discuss better on a new topic.
I'm posting here because I imagine it involves laws and rights.

The question is, why do you think a fetus is not a person? (Please, answers with bases)

Are you asking if people believe that a fetus is not human or if a fetus is not legally a person?

Why a fetus should be considered legally a human or not ?

In a nutshell, because it cannot survive on its own.

If we declared it a person, and it had rights, is a miscarriage manslaughter? The miscarriage was due to stress or other negligence.
Assuming the first miscarriage isn't, is the fourth? The first could just be medical, but knowing that, you still continue to get pregnant...
Is drinking, smoking, stress, or malnutrition considered child abuse? These things are bad for the baby.
The mother becomes a slave to the fetus, which is especially true in cases of rape and incest. There is no reason to suggest the law should say "oh, you were raped, then it is okay to murder an innocent person".

I want something more simple, I know why a dog is not a person, or why a liver is not a person.
But what are your reasons for saying that a fetus is not a person?
Khaos_Mage
Posts: 23,214
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10/24/2014 8:34:52 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/24/2014 8:22:29 AM, Lupo wrote:
At 10/24/2014 7:27:33 AM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 10/24/2014 7:17:34 AM, Lupo wrote:
At 10/24/2014 6:48:56 AM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 10/24/2014 5:38:12 AM, Lupo wrote:
This question started on a topic about abortion, but I would like to discuss better on a new topic.
I'm posting here because I imagine it involves laws and rights.

The question is, why do you think a fetus is not a person? (Please, answers with bases)

Are you asking if people believe that a fetus is not human or if a fetus is not legally a person?

Why a fetus should be considered legally a human or not ?

In a nutshell, because it cannot survive on its own.

If we declared it a person, and it had rights, is a miscarriage manslaughter? The miscarriage was due to stress or other negligence.
Assuming the first miscarriage isn't, is the fourth? The first could just be medical, but knowing that, you still continue to get pregnant...
Is drinking, smoking, stress, or malnutrition considered child abuse? These things are bad for the baby.
The mother becomes a slave to the fetus, which is especially true in cases of rape and incest. There is no reason to suggest the law should say "oh, you were raped, then it is okay to murder an innocent person".

I want something more simple, I know why a dog is not a person, or why a liver is not a person.
But what are your reasons for saying that a fetus is not a person?
Nothing is simple when it comes to the law.
If it is a person, it has rights, thus, the above issues are matters of law.

And, I told you, a fetus cannot survive on its own. That's a major legal issue.
Note that most laws that outlaw abortion is late-term, when the fetus is viable (i.e. can survive outside the womb).
My work here is, finally, done.
Lupo
Posts: 90
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10/24/2014 8:45:55 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/24/2014 8:34:52 AM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 10/24/2014 8:22:29 AM, Lupo wrote:
At 10/24/2014 7:27:33 AM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 10/24/2014 7:17:34 AM, Lupo wrote:
At 10/24/2014 6:48:56 AM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 10/24/2014 5:38:12 AM, Lupo wrote:
This question started on a topic about abortion, but I would like to discuss better on a new topic.
I'm posting here because I imagine it involves laws and rights.

The question is, why do you think a fetus is not a person? (Please, answers with bases)

Are you asking if people believe that a fetus is not human or if a fetus is not legally a person?

Why a fetus should be considered legally a human or not ?

In a nutshell, because it cannot survive on its own.

If we declared it a person, and it had rights, is a miscarriage manslaughter? The miscarriage was due to stress or other negligence.
Assuming the first miscarriage isn't, is the fourth? The first could just be medical, but knowing that, you still continue to get pregnant...
Is drinking, smoking, stress, or malnutrition considered child abuse? These things are bad for the baby.
The mother becomes a slave to the fetus, which is especially true in cases of rape and incest. There is no reason to suggest the law should say "oh, you were raped, then it is okay to murder an innocent person".

I want something more simple, I know why a dog is not a person, or why a liver is not a person.
But what are your reasons for saying that a fetus is not a person?
Nothing is simple when it comes to the law.
If it is a person, it has rights, thus, the above issues are matters of law.

And, I told you, a fetus cannot survive on its own. That's a major legal issue.
Note that most laws that outlaw abortion is late-term, when the fetus is viable (i.e. can survive outside the womb).

Some disabled persons, can not live by themselves, and they are persons.

This is not a valid argument, a fetus can be a person and not survive on its own.
Khaos_Mage
Posts: 23,214
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10/24/2014 8:53:03 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/24/2014 8:45:55 AM, Lupo wrote:

Some disabled persons, can not live by themselves, and they are persons.
We are not talking about living, we are talking about literal survival.
A disabled person can breathe, eat, and, thus, live. They may not be able to function in society, or survive long without help, but they can, on their own, literally survive without help. Clearly, a newborn is incapable of living on their own, but that is not what we are talking about.

Notice that "pulling the plug" is not murder. Why? Because it is natural for the person to die, since they CANNOT survive without the machine. A fetus is in a similar position, until about five months.

This is not a valid argument, a fetus can be a person and not survive on its own.
Really?
Tell me how a one month old fetus can survive outside the womb.
My work here is, finally, done.
Lupo
Posts: 90
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10/24/2014 10:48:49 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/24/2014 8:53:03 AM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 10/24/2014 8:45:55 AM, Lupo wrote:

Some disabled persons, can not live by themselves, and they are persons.
We are not talking about living, we are talking about literal survival.
A disabled person can breathe, eat, and, thus, live. They may not be able to function in society, or survive long without help, but they can, on their own, literally survive without help. Clearly, a newborn is incapable of living on their own, but that is not what we are talking about.

Notice that "pulling the plug" is not murder. Why? Because it is natural for the person to die, since they CANNOT survive without the machine. A fetus is in a similar position, until about five months.

This is not a valid argument, a fetus can be a person and not survive on its own.
Really?
Tell me how a one month old fetus can survive outside the womb.

I did not say that he can live by himself, I said the fact that he can not, does not disqualify him as a person.
Because there are others who can not live by themselves, and are considered persons.
Khaos_Mage
Posts: 23,214
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10/24/2014 10:59:12 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/24/2014 10:48:49 AM, Lupo wrote:
At 10/24/2014 8:53:03 AM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 10/24/2014 8:45:55 AM, Lupo wrote:

Some disabled persons, can not live by themselves, and they are persons.
We are not talking about living, we are talking about literal survival.
A disabled person can breathe, eat, and, thus, live. They may not be able to function in society, or survive long without help, but they can, on their own, literally survive without help. Clearly, a newborn is incapable of living on their own, but that is not what we are talking about.

Notice that "pulling the plug" is not murder. Why? Because it is natural for the person to die, since they CANNOT survive without the machine. A fetus is in a similar position, until about five months.

This is not a valid argument, a fetus can be a person and not survive on its own.
Really?
Tell me how a one month old fetus can survive outside the womb.

I did not say that he can live by himself, I said the fact that he can not, does not disqualify him as a person.
I don't understand what you mean. Give examples.
Because there are others who can not live by themselves, and are considered persons.
Who cannot live by themselves, and are considered persons?
My work here is, finally, done.
Lupo
Posts: 90
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10/24/2014 11:34:17 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/24/2014 10:59:12 AM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 10/24/2014 10:48:49 AM, Lupo wrote:
At 10/24/2014 8:53:03 AM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 10/24/2014 8:45:55 AM, Lupo wrote:

Some disabled persons, can not live by themselves, and they are persons.
We are not talking about living, we are talking about literal survival.
A disabled person can breathe, eat, and, thus, live. They may not be able to function in society, or survive long without help, but they can, on their own, literally survive without help. Clearly, a newborn is incapable of living on their own, but that is not what we are talking about.

Notice that "pulling the plug" is not murder. Why? Because it is natural for the person to die, since they CANNOT survive without the machine. A fetus is in a similar position, until about five months.

This is not a valid argument, a fetus can be a person and not survive on its own.
Really?
Tell me how a one month old fetus can survive outside the womb.

I did not say that he can live by himself, I said the fact that he can not, does not disqualify him as a person.
I don't understand what you mean. Give examples.
Because there are others who can not live by themselves, and are considered persons.
Who cannot live by themselves, and are considered persons?

Handicapped, people who need machines to live, Down syndrome persons, people who need daily blood transfusions, and etc.
Khaos_Mage
Posts: 23,214
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10/24/2014 12:20:17 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/24/2014 11:34:17 AM, Lupo wrote:

Handicapped,
Can survive (i.e. breathe, eat, etc.) on their own
people who need machines to live,
Unplugging them is not murder
Down syndrome persons, people who need daily blood transfusions
Can survive on their own, perhaps not for long.

The issue isn't they need help, it is that they are physically capable of life on their own, while a fetus is not.
How does a fetus breathe without developed lungs? They don't.
How does it eat? They don't.

So, you are the one who has no valid argument and are trying to extend the right to life to those who physically are incapable of living on their own. For you to do this, then it also must be unethical for me to be unplugged from a machine while in a coma.

You wanted the legal reason, there it is.
My work here is, finally, done.
Lupo
Posts: 90
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10/24/2014 12:41:30 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/24/2014 12:20:17 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 10/24/2014 11:34:17 AM, Lupo wrote:

Handicapped,
Can survive (i.e. breathe, eat, etc.) on their own
people who need machines to live,
Unplugging them is not murder.
If you go to a hospital and turn off all the machines, it's murder.
Those people can not live by themselves.
Down syndrome persons, people who need daily blood transfusions
Can survive on their own, perhaps not for long.

The issue isn't they need help, it is that they are physically capable of life on their own, while a fetus is not.
How does a fetus breathe without developed lungs? They don't.
How does it eat? They don't.

So, you are the one who has no valid argument and are trying to extend the right to life to those who physically are incapable of living on their own. For you to do this, then it also must be unethical for me to be unplugged from a machine while in a coma.

You wanted the legal reason, there it is.

No, If you look at a fetus and says, "Ok, he can not live by itself, let him die"
You can not judge people by ignoring the starvation in Africa eg "Ok, they can not feed themselves, let them die"

Basically, you're alive and human, you have a right to life.