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Is the PTSD of Military Veterans BS?

charleslb
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10/27/2014 1:05:51 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
Has anyone else noticed and given any critical thought to the fact that our social and cultural programming to "support the troops" has included the evolution and popularization of a new cultural stereotype, the sympathetic stereotype of the war veteran afflicted with PTSD? The poor, pathetic psychically wounded warrior who has sacrificed his mental health for his country and whom we're therefore supposed to appreciatively and patriotically fall all over ourselves to be empathetically understanding and supportive of.

Yes, in the case of PTSD our culture has manufactured yet another nouveau medical diagnosis and label for, another medicalized understanding of, a normal form of human frailty, wretchedness, and anguish; a run-of-the-mill inner, existential plight that frequently characterizes the human condition. Why, pray tell?

Well, of course there's the general tendency of our scientistic, materialistic culture to explain every aspect of the human experience in technical medical terms. But if we practice the hermeneutics of suspicion we might also theorize a political ulterior motive as well. That is, the new cultural trope of PTSD serves very nicely to distract, to divert the public's attention and thoughts away from the immorality of the imperialistic aggressions that our military veterans have taken part in, and to focus us instead, in a noncritical, sympathetic mode, on the boosterism of the "boys" and girls who wear the uniform. Clearly this makes for a public that is not terribly critical of the "service" of the those in the armed forces, of the wars & occupations in which they're tasked to do the dirty work, and of American militarism in general. In short, the payoff for the power elite is an American public that's not much of an obstacle to any military actions that it wishes to take, and that upstandingly offers up its sons and daughters as cannon fodder.

At any rate, the poignant image of the PTSD-afflicted vet helps to elicit a supportiveness that has a way of translating into, or being channeled and factored into supportiveness of American hawkishness, thereby serving the special interests of our warmongering hegemons on Pennsylvania Avenue and Wall Street. Hence our culture, which is in large measure oriented and geared to promote the interests of the elite, tasks itself with popularizing a psychiatric stereotype that in fact enhances its ability to utilize military force for its own agenda.

And of course our veterans of foreign wars, with no sense of how it plays right into the agenda of the elites that sent them overseas to be traumatized in the first place, glom right onto a psychiatric stereotype that they can milk for sympathy and support for life. Yes, some eighteen-year-old knucklehead who joined up and got himself shell-shocked in the morally reprehensible occupation of Iraq because he thought that it was the macho thing to do will still be wearing his Purple Heart on his sleeve, still pathetically playing on the pity of a naively patriotic public when he's in his fifties and sixties and needs an excuse for alcohol and spousal abuse. The mock glory of his "service" endows him with nobility all the more poignantly if he can claim to be a permanent victim of post-traumatic stress. Post-traumatic stress becomes a perverse badge of honor. The compassion-inducing refuge of scoundrels for those who were complicit in crimes such as the invasion/occupation of Iraq or the Vietnam War.

So yes, motivated and sponsored by the interests of political & capitalist fat cats, and with veterans co-signing it for their own self-interested reasons, our culture has embraced the mock-heroic, substitute-for-a-more-morally-authentic-type-of-hero psycho simulacrum of the shell-shocked soldier who gave his sanity fighting for his Uncle Sam. Nevermind that behind Uncle Sam was that puppeteer Daddy Warbucks, and that the PTSD "survivor's" impaired sanity was actually incurred in an unjust war, all that matters is that our hearts go out to him in maudlin shows of patriotically-tinged pathos. Such is our conditioning, our brainwashing, if that isn't too hyperbolic a word.

To sum up. "Support the troops" and "Hug a traumatized vet", these are indeed the brainwashing slogans used to inculcate pro-militarism. They're what's printed on one of the blue pills of ideology that most of us unwittingly and routinely swallow. And athough this particular blue pill may not quite be an opiate of the people it's a quite effective mood regulator, designed to prevent the mood of the masses from becoming too anti-war. You might think that the public's heightened awareness of combat-related post-traumatic stress disorder would drive home the horrific nature of war and prove to be counterproductive to recruitment and to generating pro-war sentiment, but not the way it's spin-doctored. We the people are quite expertly snowed and indoctrinated by the mass media-government complex and urgently need to realize and come to terms with this embarrassing fact, to realize that cultural shibboleths having to do with supporting the troops and PTSD are in fact motifs of manipulation used to play us, to make us patsies and pawns of the plutocratic powers that be. The choice is ours, we can either begin making the mental and moral effort to wake ourselves up, or remain gullibly patriotic victims of our society and its ruling class.
Yo, all of my subliterate conservative criticasters who find perusing and processing the sesquipedalian verbiage of my posts to be such a bothersome brain-taxing chore, I have a new nickname for you. Henceforth you shall be known as Pooh Bears. No, not for the obvious apt reasons, i.e., not because you're full of pooh, and not because of your ursine irritability. Rather, you put me in mind of an A.A. Milne quote, "I am a Bear of Very Little Brain, and long words bother me". Love ya, Pooh Bears.
charleslb
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10/27/2014 1:18:45 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
If you're a Vietnam, or Iraq, or Afghanistan veteran with PTSD don't think that I'm heartlessly denying the reality of your pain or advocating that we withhold our compassion from you, of course you deserve compassion, but as a human being, not as a veteran of an immoral and imperialistic war.
Yo, all of my subliterate conservative criticasters who find perusing and processing the sesquipedalian verbiage of my posts to be such a bothersome brain-taxing chore, I have a new nickname for you. Henceforth you shall be known as Pooh Bears. No, not for the obvious apt reasons, i.e., not because you're full of pooh, and not because of your ursine irritability. Rather, you put me in mind of an A.A. Milne quote, "I am a Bear of Very Little Brain, and long words bother me". Love ya, Pooh Bears.
Ore_Ele
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10/27/2014 1:25:43 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
We recognize PTSD for more than just the military, so your rant is kind of meaningless.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
Vox_Veritas
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10/27/2014 2:57:31 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/27/2014 1:05:51 AM, charleslb wrote:
Has anyone else noticed and given any critical thought to the fact that our social and cultural programming to "support the troops" has included the evolution and popularization of a new cultural stereotype, the sympathetic stereotype of the war veteran afflicted with PTSD? The poor, pathetic psychically wounded warrior who has sacrificed his mental health for his country and whom we're therefore supposed to appreciatively and patriotically fall all over ourselves to be empathetically understanding and supportive of.

Yes, in the case of PTSD our culture has manufactured yet another nouveau medical diagnosis and label for, another medicalized understanding of, a normal form of human frailty, wretchedness, and anguish; a run-of-the-mill inner, existential plight that frequently characterizes the human condition. Why, pray tell?

Well, of course there's the general tendency of our scientistic, materialistic culture to explain every aspect of the human experience in technical medical terms. But if we practice the hermeneutics of suspicion we might also theorize a political ulterior motive as well. That is, the new cultural trope of PTSD serves very nicely to distract, to divert the public's attention and thoughts away from the immorality of the imperialistic aggressions that our military veterans have taken part in, and to focus us instead, in a noncritical, sympathetic mode, on the boosterism of the "boys" and girls who wear the uniform. Clearly this makes for a public that is not terribly critical of the "service" of the those in the armed forces, of the wars & occupations in which they're tasked to do the dirty work, and of American militarism in general. In short, the payoff for the power elite is an American public that's not much of an obstacle to any military actions that it wishes to take, and that upstandingly offers up its sons and daughters as cannon fodder.

At any rate, the poignant image of the PTSD-afflicted vet helps to elicit a supportiveness that has a way of translating into, or being channeled and factored into supportiveness of American hawkishness, thereby serving the special interests of our warmongering hegemons on Pennsylvania Avenue and Wall Street. Hence our culture, which is in large measure oriented and geared to promote the interests of the elite, tasks itself with popularizing a psychiatric stereotype that in fact enhances its ability to utilize military force for its own agenda.

And of course our veterans of foreign wars, with no sense of how it plays right into the agenda of the elites that sent them overseas to be traumatized in the first place, glom right onto a psychiatric stereotype that they can milk for sympathy and support for life. Yes, some eighteen-year-old knucklehead who joined up and got himself shell-shocked in the morally reprehensible occupation of Iraq because he thought that it was the macho thing to do will still be wearing his Purple Heart on his sleeve, still pathetically playing on the pity of a naively patriotic public when he's in his fifties and sixties and needs an excuse for alcohol and spousal abuse. The mock glory of his "service" endows him with nobility all the more poignantly if he can claim to be a permanent victim of post-traumatic stress. Post-traumatic stress becomes a perverse badge of honor. The compassion-inducing refuge of scoundrels for those who were complicit in crimes such as the invasion/occupation of Iraq or the Vietnam War.

So yes, motivated and sponsored by the interests of political & capitalist fat cats, and with veterans co-signing it for their own self-interested reasons, our culture has embraced the mock-heroic, substitute-for-a-more-morally-authentic-type-of-hero psycho simulacrum of the shell-shocked soldier who gave his sanity fighting for his Uncle Sam. Nevermind that behind Uncle Sam was that puppeteer Daddy Warbucks, and that the PTSD "survivor's" impaired sanity was actually incurred in an unjust war, all that matters is that our hearts go out to him in maudlin shows of patriotically-tinged pathos. Such is our conditioning, our brainwashing, if that isn't too hyperbolic a word.

To sum up. "Support the troops" and "Hug a traumatized vet", these are indeed the brainwashing slogans used to inculcate pro-militarism. They're what's printed on one of the blue pills of ideology that most of us unwittingly and routinely swallow. And athough this particular blue pill may not quite be an opiate of the people it's a quite effective mood regulator, designed to prevent the mood of the masses from becoming too anti-war. You might think that the public's heightened awareness of combat-related post-traumatic stress disorder would drive home the horrific nature of war and prove to be counterproductive to recruitment and to generating pro-war sentiment, but not the way it's spin-doctored. We the people are quite expertly snowed and indoctrinated by the mass media-government complex and urgently need to realize and come to terms with this embarrassing fact, to realize that cultural shibboleths having to do with supporting the troops and PTSD are in fact motifs of manipulation used to play us, to make us patsies and pawns of the plutocratic powers that be. The choice is ours, we can either begin making the mental and moral effort to wake ourselves up, or remain gullibly patriotic victims of our society and its ruling class.

Is PTSD of military veterans bull? Well, go get shot at, witness your close friend get torn to pieces by a grenade, stand right next to an extremely loud artillery piece as it goes off three a minute, get shrapnel stuck in your leg, have your face burnt up until your wife and children are unable to recognize you, and then answer your own question.
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Khaos_Mage
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10/27/2014 2:58:59 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/27/2014 1:25:43 AM, Ore_Ele wrote:
We recognize PTSD for more than just the military, so your rant is kind of meaningless.
My work here is, finally, done.
charleslb
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10/27/2014 3:01:01 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/27/2014 1:25:43 AM, Ore_Ele wrote:
We recognize PTSD for more than just the military, so your rant is kind of meaningless.

I don't claim that PTSD isn't a genuine psychiatric disorder that also afflicts a great many people in the civilian sector. Of course it's an all too cruelly real mental health issue affecting both military veterans and non-veterans alike, but the sympathetic stereotype of the PTSD-afflicted veteran is certainly being factored into our support-the-troops programming.
Yo, all of my subliterate conservative criticasters who find perusing and processing the sesquipedalian verbiage of my posts to be such a bothersome brain-taxing chore, I have a new nickname for you. Henceforth you shall be known as Pooh Bears. No, not for the obvious apt reasons, i.e., not because you're full of pooh, and not because of your ursine irritability. Rather, you put me in mind of an A.A. Milne quote, "I am a Bear of Very Little Brain, and long words bother me". Love ya, Pooh Bears.
charleslb
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10/27/2014 3:52:28 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/27/2014 2:57:31 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:

Is PTSD of military veterans bull? Well, go get shot at, witness your close friend get torn to pieces by a grenade, stand right next to an extremely loud artillery piece as it goes off three a minute, get shrapnel stuck in your leg, have your face burnt up until your wife and children are unable to recognize you, and then answer your own question.

Clearly what you did was read the title of the thread and not the OP, become inflamed, and write a knee-jerk reply. But in fact nowhere in the OP do I argue that PTSD is not a real and tragic psychiatric disorder brought on by traumatic wartime experiences, or that veterans are faking their mental health issues (yes, I do observe that some of them milk being a psychically wounded warrior, but nowhere do I accuse them of faking it).

My fundamental point, rather, is simply that our culture has grown a new stereotype, the sympathetic stereotype of the PTSD-afflicted veteran, which is used to direct attention away from the immorality of the wars that our "boys" & girls in uniform are traumatized in, and to maneuver the public into a pro-military mindset that makes it less inclined to actively oppose the wars that our political leaders and corporate masters get us into.

Now then, I certainly don't think that making these points is an act of unkindness to veterans. In fact, helping to wake people up to the way they're being emotionally manipulated into being pro-military, and one thereby contributing to the growth of an anti-war consciousness, is arguably doing a service for those in uniform, as it may make it more difficult for political & corporate fat cats to treat them like cannon fodder. Ironically, it's the supportiveness of conventionally-minded pro-military folks such as yourself that feeds right into the ability of our leaders to continue to send young men & women overseas to "go get shot at," to "witness" their "close friend get torn to pieces by a grenade, stand right next to an extremely loud artillery piece as it goes off three a minute, get shrapnel stuck in" their "leg", "have" their "face burnt up until" their "wife and children are unable to recognize" them and whatnot. Yes, with friends like you veterans definitely need critical-minded types like me.
Yo, all of my subliterate conservative criticasters who find perusing and processing the sesquipedalian verbiage of my posts to be such a bothersome brain-taxing chore, I have a new nickname for you. Henceforth you shall be known as Pooh Bears. No, not for the obvious apt reasons, i.e., not because you're full of pooh, and not because of your ursine irritability. Rather, you put me in mind of an A.A. Milne quote, "I am a Bear of Very Little Brain, and long words bother me". Love ya, Pooh Bears.
charleslb
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10/27/2014 3:53:58 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/27/2014 2:58:59 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 10/27/2014 1:25:43 AM, Ore_Ele wrote:
We recognize PTSD for more than just the military, so your rant is kind of meaningless.

http://www.debate.org...
Yo, all of my subliterate conservative criticasters who find perusing and processing the sesquipedalian verbiage of my posts to be such a bothersome brain-taxing chore, I have a new nickname for you. Henceforth you shall be known as Pooh Bears. No, not for the obvious apt reasons, i.e., not because you're full of pooh, and not because of your ursine irritability. Rather, you put me in mind of an A.A. Milne quote, "I am a Bear of Very Little Brain, and long words bother me". Love ya, Pooh Bears.
charleslb
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10/27/2014 3:57:17 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
I'd like to clarify two points.

1. Yes, the unappealing prospect of winding up a post-traumatic stress sufferer, of winding up a mentally broken G. I. Joe doll, as it were, should count as a big honking con when weighing the decision of whether or not one will enlist in the armed "services". However, all of the sympathy generated by the public's awareness of PTSD and the general good vibrations so prevalently directed at members and veterans of the military these days, and the way that this shields them from any moral accountability for participating in unjust wars, or from the kind of strong criticism that was directed at military personnel by the anti-war movement during this country's aggression against the people of Vietnam, in fact helps to encourage individuals to join up. Yes, knowing that the American public loves its "warriors" is a definite pro for anyone considering putting on the uniform, which is indeed a rather obvious ulterior motive for our society to promote such love.

2. Yes, the suffering of those afflicted with PTSD is all too genuine, I don't wish to deny or pooh-pooh its cruel reality. My point is simply that an awareness of PTSD is being fostered by the corporate-owned media and corporate-owned government complex because it elicits the kind of sympathy and support for military personnel that orients our thoughts and feelings in a pro-military direction, and away from a staunchly anti-war political stance. Yes, promoting such a support-the-troops-and-pay-no-mind-to-the-immorality-of-the-wars-they-fight orientation of our national consciousness is of course the establishment's strategy to ensure that it can wage war to its heart's content without ever winding up with another anti-war movement like the one that flowered during the Vietnam War on its hands. Mm-hmm, PTSD and the support-the-troops mindset are quite politically useful.
Yo, all of my subliterate conservative criticasters who find perusing and processing the sesquipedalian verbiage of my posts to be such a bothersome brain-taxing chore, I have a new nickname for you. Henceforth you shall be known as Pooh Bears. No, not for the obvious apt reasons, i.e., not because you're full of pooh, and not because of your ursine irritability. Rather, you put me in mind of an A.A. Milne quote, "I am a Bear of Very Little Brain, and long words bother me". Love ya, Pooh Bears.
charleslb
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10/27/2014 4:32:41 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Come on now folks, don't just read the title of the thread and automatically balk, don't lamely dismiss the OP out of hand as a wrongheaded rant against showing compassion to veterans in psychic pain. It's nothing of the kind. In fact I'm very much in favor of showing compassion to all of our fellow human beings and living creatures, even veterans of unjust and imperialistic wars. The OP is actually simply a "rant" against the exploitation (for purposes of psychological & ideological mass conditioning) of the stereotype of the PTSD-afflicted veteran by an establishment that has turned the American military into the global goon squad of the rich & powerful. Yes, don't judge a post by its title, give my OP a careful read before responding.
Yo, all of my subliterate conservative criticasters who find perusing and processing the sesquipedalian verbiage of my posts to be such a bothersome brain-taxing chore, I have a new nickname for you. Henceforth you shall be known as Pooh Bears. No, not for the obvious apt reasons, i.e., not because you're full of pooh, and not because of your ursine irritability. Rather, you put me in mind of an A.A. Milne quote, "I am a Bear of Very Little Brain, and long words bother me". Love ya, Pooh Bears.
charleslb
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10/27/2014 5:27:56 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
By the way, some of those who will respond to the OP in an angry attack mode aren't really motivated by genuine compassion for veterans at all. Rather, some will simply be ideologically pro-military conservatives, and others will be males who take up for veterans to vicariously identify with them and the perceived "manliness" of their military "service". Yes, let's not naively assume that everyone who talks the talk of being pro-veteran is merely a lovely, caring, patriotic individual full of warm & fuzzy feelings for their country's valiant "warriors".
Yo, all of my subliterate conservative criticasters who find perusing and processing the sesquipedalian verbiage of my posts to be such a bothersome brain-taxing chore, I have a new nickname for you. Henceforth you shall be known as Pooh Bears. No, not for the obvious apt reasons, i.e., not because you're full of pooh, and not because of your ursine irritability. Rather, you put me in mind of an A.A. Milne quote, "I am a Bear of Very Little Brain, and long words bother me". Love ya, Pooh Bears.
HououinKyouma
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10/27/2014 6:50:20 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/27/2014 1:05:51 AM, charleslb wrote:
Has anyone else noticed and given any critical thought to the fact that our social and cultural programming to "support the troops" has included the evolution and popularization of a new cultural stereotype, the sympathetic stereotype of the war veteran afflicted with PTSD? The poor, pathetic psychically wounded warrior who has sacrificed his mental health for his country and whom we're therefore supposed to appreciatively and patriotically fall all over ourselves to be empathetically understanding and supportive of.

Yes, in the case of PTSD our culture has manufactured yet another nouveau medical diagnosis and label for, another medicalized understanding of, a normal form of human frailty, wretchedness, and anguish; a run-of-the-mill inner, existential plight that frequently characterizes the human condition. Why, pray tell?

Well, of course there's the general tendency of our scientistic, materialistic culture to explain every aspect of the human experience in technical medical terms. But if we practice the hermeneutics of suspicion we might also theorize a political ulterior motive as well. That is, the new cultural trope of PTSD serves very nicely to distract, to divert the public's attention and thoughts away from the immorality of the imperialistic aggressions that our military veterans have taken part in, and to focus us instead, in a noncritical, sympathetic mode, on the boosterism of the "boys" and girls who wear the uniform. Clearly this makes for a public that is not terribly critical of the "service" of the those in the armed forces, of the wars & occupations in which they're tasked to do the dirty work, and of American militarism in general. In short, the payoff for the power elite is an American public that's not much of an obstacle to any military actions that it wishes to take, and that upstandingly offers up its sons and daughters as cannon fodder.

At any rate, the poignant image of the PTSD-afflicted vet helps to elicit a supportiveness that has a way of translating into, or being channeled and factored into supportiveness of American hawkishness, thereby serving the special interests of our warmongering hegemons on Pennsylvania Avenue and Wall Street. Hence our culture, which is in large measure oriented and geared to promote the interests of the elite, tasks itself with popularizing a psychiatric stereotype that in fact enhances its ability to utilize military force for its own agenda.

And of course our veterans of foreign wars, with no sense of how it plays right into the agenda of the elites that sent them overseas to be traumatized in the first place, glom right onto a psychiatric stereotype that they can milk for sympathy and support for life. Yes, some eighteen-year-old knucklehead who joined up and got himself shell-shocked in the morally reprehensible occupation of Iraq because he thought that it was the macho thing to do will still be wearing his Purple Heart on his sleeve, still pathetically playing on the pity of a naively patriotic public when he's in his fifties and sixties and needs an excuse for alcohol and spousal abuse. The mock glory of his "service" endows him with nobility all the more poignantly if he can claim to be a permanent victim of post-traumatic stress. Post-traumatic stress becomes a perverse badge of honor. The compassion-inducing refuge of scoundrels for those who were complicit in crimes such as the invasion/occupation of Iraq or the Vietnam War.

So yes, motivated and sponsored by the interests of political & capitalist fat cats, and with veterans co-signing it for their own self-interested reasons, our culture has embraced the mock-heroic, substitute-for-a-more-morally-authentic-type-of-hero psycho simulacrum of the shell-shocked soldier who gave his sanity fighting for his Uncle Sam. Nevermind that behind Uncle Sam was that puppeteer Daddy Warbucks, and that the PTSD "survivor's" impaired sanity was actually incurred in an unjust war, all that matters is that our hearts go out to him in maudlin shows of patriotically-tinged pathos. Such is our conditioning, our brainwashing, if that isn't too hyperbolic a word.

To sum up. "Support the troops" and "Hug a traumatized vet", these are indeed the brainwashing slogans used to inculcate pro-militarism. They're what's printed on one of the blue pills of ideology that most of us unwittingly and routinely swallow. And athough this particular blue pill may not quite be an opiate of the people it's a quite effective mood regulator, designed to prevent the mood of the masses from becoming too anti-war. You might think that the public's heightened awareness of combat-related post-traumatic stress disorder would drive home the horrific nature of war and prove to be counterproductive to recruitment and to generating pro-war sentiment, but not the way it's spin-doctored. We the people are quite expertly snowed and indoctrinated by the mass media-government complex and urgently need to realize and come to terms with this embarrassing fact, to realize that cultural shibboleths having to do with supporting the troops and PTSD are in fact motifs of manipulation used to play us, to make us patsies and pawns of the plutocratic powers that be. The choice is ours, we can either begin making the mental and moral effort to wake ourselves up, or remain gullibly patriotic victims of our society and its ruling class.

Thanks Charles for starting a different debate on this forum.

All right even if one agrees with your BS--I don't mean any disrespect with the use of the term--analysis of American foreign policy, and all that stuff about the country being run by an elite and the liberation of Iraq being an exercise in neo-colonialism, your account of why scientists and psychologists--I am shocked to find that you're such a foucauldian anti-scientist, by the way--make a big deal about PTSD is false. As has already been pointed out below, PTSD exists among certain civilians who have undergone a traumatic experience--I also reject your conflation of PTSD with the existential crisis of bourgeois Parisian university professors and artists--and, more importantly, the entire diagnosis was opposed by the military establishment in every country in the world. The case used to be, and still is in more backward militaristic societies--I find it odd that you think the US is militaristic when there is no conscription and a minimal percentage of the population serves in the armed forces--that anyone who displayed the symptoms which characterize those who suffer from PTSD were treated as cowards, either because--as was often the case--they had runaway in battle, or because they were not "manly enough" to endure the experiences of war with the unflappable stoic calm that was expected of them.

Furthermore, the whole issue of PTSD has helped to make a case against militarism rather than to promote it. It has been a common tactic among pacifists since the First World War to point to those who have been diagnosed with this disorder to make their case against war; in fact, every opponent of the wars of Afghanistan and Iraq used the diagnosis to their advantage, saying that it was immoral to send out teenagers and young adults to fight in those countries so that they would come back maimed in mind and spirit. So I think that history in this case does not favor your case.

P.S. How do you think war veterans should be treated?
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Ore_Ele
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10/27/2014 8:24:23 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/27/2014 3:01:01 PM, charleslb wrote:
At 10/27/2014 1:25:43 AM, Ore_Ele wrote:
We recognize PTSD for more than just the military, so your rant is kind of meaningless.

I don't claim that PTSD isn't a genuine psychiatric disorder that also afflicts a great many people in the civilian sector. Of course it's an all too cruelly real mental health issue affecting both military veterans and non-veterans alike, but the sympathetic stereotype of the PTSD-afflicted veteran is certainly being factored into our support-the-troops programming.

There is nothing to respond to for the rant. It creates a straw man, then tears it down. You created your own boogeyman (the false idea that we are overly empathetic towards military PTSD) and attacked it. Right now, it is just about watching you rant and use whatever opportunities you have to insert a few more cheap shots.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
charleslb
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10/28/2014 12:58:46 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/27/2014 6:50:20 PM, HououinKyouma wrote:

Thanks Charles for starting a different debate on this forum.

You're quite welcome. And thank you for clearly reading the OP before responding. I fear that the title is too provocative and will provoke some to reply hostilely without bothering to peruse, or consider the key points of, my admittedly prolix post.

All right even if one agrees with your BS--I don't mean any disrespect with the use of the term--

None taken

analysis of American foreign policy, and all that stuff about the country being run by an elite and the liberation of Iraq being an exercise in neo-colonialism,

Hmm, would you seriously contend that the way our polity functions is authentically and rigorously democratic, that we the people actually run our government via our elected officials to such an extent that our system is a true and satisfactory specimen of representative government? You do realize that one doesn't have to be a commie like moi to question the genuineness of American democracy, a great many Americans who are apolitical, liberal, and right-wing also recognize that our system is not really functioning to represent the will and protect the interests of its electorate. And as for Iraq, please don't tell me that you actually believe that a character like Dubya, and the neocons of his inner circle (who most certainly were proponents of imperialism), invaded Iraq merely to confiscate Saddam's fictional, as it turns out, weapons of mass destruction or because their hearts bled for the Iraqi people!

https://www.youtube.com...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk...

your account of why scientists and psychologists--I am shocked to find that you're such a foucauldian anti-scientist, by the way--

I'm not an "anti-scientist" at all, I merely don't hold the naive view that science is merely the innocent search for truth and the striving to better life through technology. My problem with science is twofold, 1) it currently interprets reality through a materialistic, reductionistic paradigm, and 2) it to too great an extent is in the service of, is comprised of the organic intellectuals of, is shaped by and supports the ideology of, the power structure & power elite of capitalist society.

make a big deal about PTSD is false. As has already been pointed out below, PTSD exists among certain civilians who have undergone a traumatic experience

I don't contend that PTSD only afflicts military personnel!

--I also reject your conflation of PTSD with the existential crisis of bourgeois Parisian university professors and artists--

Appeal to ridicule.

and, more importantly, the entire diagnosis was opposed by the military establishment in every country in the world. The case used to be, and still is in more backward militaristic societies--I find it odd that you think the US is militaristic when there is no conscription and a minimal percentage of the population serves in the armed forces--that anyone who displayed the symptoms which characterize those who suffer from PTSD were treated as cowards, either because--as was often the case--they had runaway in battle, or because they were not "manly enough" to endure the experiences of war with the unflappable stoic calm that was expected of them.

Furthermore, the whole issue of PTSD has helped to make a case against militarism rather than to promote it. It has been a common tactic among pacifists since the First World War to point to those who have been diagnosed with this disorder to make their case against war; in fact, every opponent of the wars of Afghanistan and Iraq used the diagnosis to their advantage, saying that it was immoral to send out teenagers and young adults to fight in those countries so that they would come back maimed in mind and spirit. So I think that history in this case does not favor your case.

Sure PTSD is a double-edged sword that obviously can also be used to make or buttress an argument against militarism - and I in fact acknowledge this rather well-known fact - but this certainly doesn't refute my contention that PTSD has been co-opted and factored into our sociocultural programming to be sympathetic to and uncritically supportive of "the troops", i.e. to be pro-veteran and patriotic patsies of American militarism.

And yes, I'm aware that macho military men aren't overly fond of the concept of PTSD, that they would prefer to think of those who break down under the stresses of combat as mentally weak and cowardly, but their attitudes certainly don't determine how the cultural stereotype of the PTSD-afflicted veteran functions in our society and worldview.

P.S. How do you think war veterans should be treated?

With the compassion that it's morally incumbent on us to show to all human beings and living creatures, but not like pathetic basket cases who need to be lied to and told that their "service" was valid when all that they really sacrificed their mental health for was the self-interested agenda of economic and political elites.
Yo, all of my subliterate conservative criticasters who find perusing and processing the sesquipedalian verbiage of my posts to be such a bothersome brain-taxing chore, I have a new nickname for you. Henceforth you shall be known as Pooh Bears. No, not for the obvious apt reasons, i.e., not because you're full of pooh, and not because of your ursine irritability. Rather, you put me in mind of an A.A. Milne quote, "I am a Bear of Very Little Brain, and long words bother me". Love ya, Pooh Bears.
charleslb
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10/28/2014 1:00:17 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/27/2014 7:09:34 PM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
Related: http://www.washingtonpost.com...

Psychedelics such as mushrooms and MDMA are an effective treatment for PTSD

Thank you for this contribution, any thoughts to share on the topic?
Yo, all of my subliterate conservative criticasters who find perusing and processing the sesquipedalian verbiage of my posts to be such a bothersome brain-taxing chore, I have a new nickname for you. Henceforth you shall be known as Pooh Bears. No, not for the obvious apt reasons, i.e., not because you're full of pooh, and not because of your ursine irritability. Rather, you put me in mind of an A.A. Milne quote, "I am a Bear of Very Little Brain, and long words bother me". Love ya, Pooh Bears.
charleslb
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10/28/2014 1:04:22 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/27/2014 7:19:31 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
How is this OP any different from "She got raped because she asked for it?"

Well, apparently you're attempting to be reductionistic, but I don't think that you've done a very good job of it at all.
Yo, all of my subliterate conservative criticasters who find perusing and processing the sesquipedalian verbiage of my posts to be such a bothersome brain-taxing chore, I have a new nickname for you. Henceforth you shall be known as Pooh Bears. No, not for the obvious apt reasons, i.e., not because you're full of pooh, and not because of your ursine irritability. Rather, you put me in mind of an A.A. Milne quote, "I am a Bear of Very Little Brain, and long words bother me". Love ya, Pooh Bears.
charleslb
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10/28/2014 1:08:48 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/27/2014 8:24:23 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 10/27/2014 3:01:01 PM, charleslb wrote:
At 10/27/2014 1:25:43 AM, Ore_Ele wrote:
We recognize PTSD for more than just the military, so your rant is kind of meaningless.

I don't claim that PTSD isn't a genuine psychiatric disorder that also afflicts a great many people in the civilian sector. Of course it's an all too cruelly real mental health issue affecting both military veterans and non-veterans alike, but the sympathetic stereotype of the PTSD-afflicted veteran is certainly being factored into our support-the-troops programming.

There is nothing to respond to for the rant. It creates a straw man, then tears it down. You created your own boogeyman (the false idea that we are overly empathetic towards military PTSD) and attacked it. Right now, it is just about watching you rant and use whatever opportunities you have to insert a few more cheap shots.

Well, there's certainly more substance to respond to in my "rant" than there is in this rather flimsy reply.
Yo, all of my subliterate conservative criticasters who find perusing and processing the sesquipedalian verbiage of my posts to be such a bothersome brain-taxing chore, I have a new nickname for you. Henceforth you shall be known as Pooh Bears. No, not for the obvious apt reasons, i.e., not because you're full of pooh, and not because of your ursine irritability. Rather, you put me in mind of an A.A. Milne quote, "I am a Bear of Very Little Brain, and long words bother me". Love ya, Pooh Bears.
charleslb
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10/28/2014 1:39:37 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/27/2014 2:58:59 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 10/27/2014 1:25:43 AM, Ore_Ele wrote:
We recognize PTSD for more than just the military, so your rant is kind of meaningless.

Is this going to be the extent of your input?
Yo, all of my subliterate conservative criticasters who find perusing and processing the sesquipedalian verbiage of my posts to be such a bothersome brain-taxing chore, I have a new nickname for you. Henceforth you shall be known as Pooh Bears. No, not for the obvious apt reasons, i.e., not because you're full of pooh, and not because of your ursine irritability. Rather, you put me in mind of an A.A. Milne quote, "I am a Bear of Very Little Brain, and long words bother me". Love ya, Pooh Bears.
Khaos_Mage
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10/28/2014 1:46:55 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/28/2014 1:39:37 AM, charleslb wrote:
At 10/27/2014 2:58:59 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 10/27/2014 1:25:43 AM, Ore_Ele wrote:
We recognize PTSD for more than just the military, so your rant is kind of meaningless.

Is this going to be the extent of your input?

Pretty much, yeah.
I don't see the PTSD as a stereotype at all.
I have no idea what this "support our troops programming" is, nor do I care, given your rant.

I found your OP to be quite disgusting and insulting, and now you are backtracking.
My work here is, finally, done.
Greyparrot
Posts: 14,325
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10/28/2014 5:32:15 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/28/2014 1:04:22 AM, charleslb wrote:
At 10/27/2014 7:19:31 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
How is this OP any different from "She got raped because she asked for it?"

Well, apparently you're attempting to be reductionistic, but I don't think that you've done a very good job of it at all.

So how is it different?
charleslb
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10/28/2014 3:24:18 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/28/2014 1:46:55 AM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 10/28/2014 1:39:37 AM, charleslb wrote:
At 10/27/2014 2:58:59 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 10/27/2014 1:25:43 AM, Ore_Ele wrote:
We recognize PTSD for more than just the military, so your rant is kind of meaningless.

Is this going to be the extent of your input?

Pretty much, yeah.

Disappointing.

I don't see the PTSD as a stereotype at all.

Perhaps there's something wrong then with your ideological spectacles, so to speak.

I have no idea what this "support our troops programming" is, ...

Have you perhaps been residing in a cave, sans internet, TV, or a newspaper subscription?

I found your OP to be quite disgusting and insulting, and now you are backtracking.

How so?
Yo, all of my subliterate conservative criticasters who find perusing and processing the sesquipedalian verbiage of my posts to be such a bothersome brain-taxing chore, I have a new nickname for you. Henceforth you shall be known as Pooh Bears. No, not for the obvious apt reasons, i.e., not because you're full of pooh, and not because of your ursine irritability. Rather, you put me in mind of an A.A. Milne quote, "I am a Bear of Very Little Brain, and long words bother me". Love ya, Pooh Bears.
charleslb
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10/28/2014 3:29:30 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/28/2014 5:32:15 AM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 10/28/2014 1:04:22 AM, charleslb wrote:
At 10/27/2014 7:19:31 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
How is this OP any different from "She got raped because she asked for it?"

Well, apparently you're attempting to be reductionistic, but I don't think that you've done a very good job of it at all.

So how is it different?

It's your analogy, if that's what it's supposed to be, therefore the burden is on you to elucidate it before you can expect me to attempt to refute it.
Yo, all of my subliterate conservative criticasters who find perusing and processing the sesquipedalian verbiage of my posts to be such a bothersome brain-taxing chore, I have a new nickname for you. Henceforth you shall be known as Pooh Bears. No, not for the obvious apt reasons, i.e., not because you're full of pooh, and not because of your ursine irritability. Rather, you put me in mind of an A.A. Milne quote, "I am a Bear of Very Little Brain, and long words bother me". Love ya, Pooh Bears.
TN05
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10/28/2014 3:46:37 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/27/2014 4:32:41 PM, charleslb wrote:
Come on now folks, don't just read the title of the thread and automatically balk, don't lamely dismiss the OP out of hand as a wrongheaded rant against showing compassion to veterans in psychic pain. It's nothing of the kind. In fact I'm very much in favor of showing compassion to all of our fellow human beings and living creatures, even veterans of unjust and imperialistic wars. The OP is actually simply a "rant" against the exploitation (for purposes of psychological & ideological mass conditioning) of the stereotype of the PTSD-afflicted veteran by an establishment that has turned the American military into the global goon squad of the rich & powerful. Yes, don't judge a post by its title, give my OP a careful read before responding.

If you don't want people to balk at you don't say something moronic and insulting.
charleslb
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10/28/2014 3:56:55 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/28/2014 12:58:46 AM, charleslb wrote:

I'm not an "anti-scientist" at all, I merely don't hold the naive view that science is merely the innocent search for truth and the striving to better life through technology. My problem with science is twofold, 1) it currently interprets reality through a materialistic, reductionistic paradigm, and ...

I neglected to spell out that it's of course precisely this materialistic/reductionistic orientation or paradigm that inclines scientists to crassly explain every aspect of the human condition & experience in terms of genetic & neurological factors, and that has medical practitioners and behavioral scientists inventing new diagnoses and labels with which to diagnostically pigeonhole patients suffering from common and normal human responses, weaknesses, or existential plights. These pigeonholing psychiatric labels then grow into popular stereotypes which are sometimes co-opted and exploited for political and ideological purposes.

Please also see the rest of my reply above, http://www.debate.org...
Yo, all of my subliterate conservative criticasters who find perusing and processing the sesquipedalian verbiage of my posts to be such a bothersome brain-taxing chore, I have a new nickname for you. Henceforth you shall be known as Pooh Bears. No, not for the obvious apt reasons, i.e., not because you're full of pooh, and not because of your ursine irritability. Rather, you put me in mind of an A.A. Milne quote, "I am a Bear of Very Little Brain, and long words bother me". Love ya, Pooh Bears.
charleslb
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10/28/2014 4:03:21 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/28/2014 3:46:37 PM, TN05 wrote:
At 10/27/2014 4:32:41 PM, charleslb wrote:
Come on now folks, don't just read the title of the thread and automatically balk, don't lamely dismiss the OP out of hand as a wrongheaded rant against showing compassion to veterans in psychic pain. It's nothing of the kind. In fact I'm very much in favor of showing compassion to all of our fellow human beings and living creatures, even veterans of unjust and imperialistic wars. The OP is actually simply a "rant" against the exploitation (for purposes of psychological & ideological mass conditioning) of the stereotype of the PTSD-afflicted veteran by an establishment that has turned the American military into the global goon squad of the rich & powerful. Yes, don't judge a post by its title, give my OP a careful read before responding.

If you don't want people to balk at you don't say something moronic and insulting.

Well, perhaps if you deign to actually read the OP you can identify which specific points are "moronic" and "insulting", and offer your counterarguments. Or perhaps you'd prefer to simply continue to engage in name-calling?
Yo, all of my subliterate conservative criticasters who find perusing and processing the sesquipedalian verbiage of my posts to be such a bothersome brain-taxing chore, I have a new nickname for you. Henceforth you shall be known as Pooh Bears. No, not for the obvious apt reasons, i.e., not because you're full of pooh, and not because of your ursine irritability. Rather, you put me in mind of an A.A. Milne quote, "I am a Bear of Very Little Brain, and long words bother me". Love ya, Pooh Bears.
charleslb
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10/28/2014 5:27:37 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
And yes folks, although it doesn't matter to my thesis, just for your information there are apparently in fact more than a few fakers. http://www.huffingtonpost.com...
Yo, all of my subliterate conservative criticasters who find perusing and processing the sesquipedalian verbiage of my posts to be such a bothersome brain-taxing chore, I have a new nickname for you. Henceforth you shall be known as Pooh Bears. No, not for the obvious apt reasons, i.e., not because you're full of pooh, and not because of your ursine irritability. Rather, you put me in mind of an A.A. Milne quote, "I am a Bear of Very Little Brain, and long words bother me". Love ya, Pooh Bears.
Greyparrot
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10/28/2014 6:10:51 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/28/2014 3:29:30 PM, charleslb wrote:
At 10/28/2014 5:32:15 AM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 10/28/2014 1:04:22 AM, charleslb wrote:
At 10/27/2014 7:19:31 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
How is this OP any different from "She got raped because she asked for it?"

Well, apparently you're attempting to be reductionistic, but I don't think that you've done a very good job of it at all.

So how is it different?

It's your analogy, if that's what it's supposed to be, therefore the burden is on you to elucidate it before you can expect me to attempt to refute it.

I don't really care about your refutes. I just want to know why you claim your op is different from-"She got raped because she asked for it?"

If you really don't have an answer, I can live with that.
HououinKyouma
Posts: 1,030
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10/28/2014 7:57:29 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/28/2014 12:58:46 AM, charleslb wrote:
At 10/27/2014 6:50:20 PM, HououinKyouma wrote:

Thanks Charles for starting a different debate on this forum.

You're quite welcome. And thank you for clearly reading the OP before responding. I fear that the title is too provocative and will provoke some to reply hostilely without bothering to peruse, or consider the key points of, my admittedly prolix post.

It would be easier for people to address your points if (1) your titles weren't so provocative, and (2) your posts were shorter, seriously man, they kill me.

All right even if one agrees with your BS--I don't mean any disrespect with the use of the term--

None taken

analysis of American foreign policy, and all that stuff about the country being run by an elite and the liberation of Iraq being an exercise in neo-colonialism,

Hmm, would you seriously contend that the way our polity functions is authentically and rigorously democratic, that we the people actually run our government via our elected officials to such an extent that our system is a true and satisfactory specimen of representative government? You do realize that one doesn't have to be a commie like moi to question the genuineness of American democracy, a great many Americans who are apolitical, liberal, and right-wing also recognize that our system is not really functioning to represent the will and protect the interests of its electorate. And as for Iraq, please don't tell me that you actually believe that a character like Dubya, and the neocons of his inner circle (who most certainly were proponents of imperialism), invaded Iraq merely to confiscate Saddam's fictional, as it turns out, weapons of mass destruction or because their hearts bled for the Iraqi people!

There is a reason why I included the phrase "even if one agrees...", in order to divert the discussion away from the issue of what American foreign policy is. That is another topic all together that has absolutely nothing to do with the issue of PTSD. We have already discussed it, in part, elsewhere, and I have already refuted your thesis.

https://www.youtube.com...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk...


your account of why scientists and psychologists--I am shocked to find that you're such a foucauldian anti-scientist, by the way--

I'm not an "anti-scientist" at all, I merely don't hold the naive view that science is merely the innocent search for truth and the striving to better life through technology. My problem with science is twofold, 1) it currently interprets reality through a materialistic, reductionistic paradigm, and 2) it to too great an extent is in the service of, is comprised of the organic intellectuals of, is shaped by and supports the ideology of, the power structure & power elite of capitalist society.

I don't see what is the problem with (1), and (2) is manifestly false, there are a lot of scientists who are socialists and liberal, specially among psychologists.

make a big deal about PTSD is false. As has already been pointed out below, PTSD exists among certain civilians who have undergone a traumatic experience

I don't contend that PTSD only afflicts military personnel!

That's what your post seemed to indicate.

--I also reject your conflation of PTSD with the existential crisis of bourgeois Parisian university professors and artists--

Appeal to ridicule.

I'm sorry but comparing PTSD with the whining about the lack of meaning in life characteristic of post-war French literati is ridiculous.

and, more importantly, the entire diagnosis was opposed by the military establishment in every country in the world. The case used to be, and still is in more backward militaristic societies--I find it odd that you think the US is militaristic when there is no conscription and a minimal percentage of the population serves in the armed forces--that anyone who displayed the symptoms which characterize those who suffer from PTSD were treated as cowards, either because--as was often the case--they had runaway in battle, or because they were not "manly enough" to endure the experiences of war with the unflappable stoic calm that was expected of them.



Furthermore, the whole issue of PTSD has helped to make a case against militarism rather than to promote it. It has been a common tactic among pacifists since the First World War to point to those who have been diagnosed with this disorder to make their case against war; in fact, every opponent of the wars of Afghanistan and Iraq used the diagnosis to their advantage, saying that it was immoral to send out teenagers and young adults to fight in those countries so that they would come back maimed in mind and spirit. So I think that history in this case does not favor your case.

Sure PTSD is a double-edged sword that obviously can also be used to make or buttress an argument against militarism - and I in fact acknowledge this rather well-known fact - but this certainly doesn't refute my contention that PTSD has been co-opted and factored into our sociocultural programming to be sympathetic to and uncritically supportive of "the troops", i.e. to be pro-veteran and patriotic patsies of American militarism.

I don't know of a single case of those who want to expand militarism in the US appealing to PTSD as a tool to rouse support among the masses; there are appeals to support the troops because they are damaged psychologically and often physically, but people on both sides make that appeal. Certainly most of the literature on the subject of traumatized troops, among psychology journals, newspaper reports, television programs and movies, are staunchly anti-militaristic.

And yes, I'm aware that macho military men aren't overly fond of the concept of PTSD, that they would prefer to think of those who break down under the stresses of combat as mentally weak and cowardly, but their attitudes certainly don't determine how the cultural stereotype of the PTSD-afflicted veteran functions in our society and worldview.

The cultural stereotype of the veterans diagnosed with PTSD is that they are figures deserving pity, people who were co-opted as it were to act in the interests of others and were betrayed, or abandoned, of forced to face the real consequences of the reckless actions of those who sent them to war. Hardly a case of propaganda in favor of the military.

P.S. How do you think war veterans should be treated?

With the compassion that it's morally incumbent on us to show to all human beings and living creatures, but not like pathetic basket cases who need to be lied to and told that their "service" was valid when all that they really sacrificed their mental health for was the self-interested agenda of economic and political elites.

It would have to depend on which campaign or theater of war they took part. Certainly World War II veterans who suffer from PTSD deserve respect and their service was worth something; the same can be said of those who served in Vietnam, or Bosnia, or Kosovo, or Afghanistan, or Iraq.
"Here the ways of men part: if you wish to strive for peace of soul and pleasure, then believe; if you wish to be a devotee of truth, then inquire." F. Nietzsche.

"Freedom is always freedom for the one who thinks differently." R. Luxemburg.

"The principle of the masochistic left is that, in general, two blacks make a white, half a loaf is the same as no bread." G. Orwell, paraphrase.

"Islamophobia is a word created by fascists, used by cowards, to manipulate morons". Andrew Cummins.