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Arizona Illlegal Immigration Bill

Volkov
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4/24/2010 6:22:42 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
I'm sure everyone has heard of this bill, recently put into place by Republican Gov. Jan Brewer in Arizona, aimed at curtailing illegal immigration in the state, which has only 7 million people, and an estimated half a million undocumented immigrants.

Now, I am personally on the fence about it. I think its a very slippery slope, but its probably going to be effective if enforced properly. I mean, racial profiling, for all its ills, probably gets the job done in the end. I know the Israelis have some good results with it, though its a completely different situation, isn't it...

However, the second that a legal immigrant is stopped, harassed, and deported under this bill, then that support fades away. This bill has a bad side effect of probably scaring off and even making targets of legal immigrants, whether or not they're accessories to what is now a crime under the bill - helping people find jobs.

Is that really a line Arizonans want to tread? It's a dangerous one, and it can go so wrong, so fast. Stopping drug cartels and criminals is one thing - making legal immigrant's lives a living hell is another.

Anyways, what are people's views on this? Good, bad, useful, ineffective?
Volkov
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4/24/2010 6:51:21 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/24/2010 6:50:14 PM, FREEDO wrote:
There's no such thing as an illegal person.

.... but there is such a thing as an undocumented immigrant and illegal immigration.
FREEDO
Posts: 21,057
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4/24/2010 6:56:44 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/24/2010 6:51:21 PM, Volkov wrote:
At 4/24/2010 6:50:14 PM, FREEDO wrote:
There's no such thing as an illegal person.

.... but there is such a thing as an undocumented immigrant and illegal immigration.

What I mean is that ,in my view on the matter, forcibly removing these people from the country is unjust. Open the boarders.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
Volkov
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4/24/2010 7:01:05 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/24/2010 6:56:44 PM, FREEDO wrote:
What I mean is that ,in my view on the matter, forcibly removing these people from the country is unjust. Open the borders.

Why? Why is sending back those that come over to your country illegally a bad thing, and why should the borders be opened? Just out of principle?
FREEDO
Posts: 21,057
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4/24/2010 7:12:02 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/24/2010 7:01:05 PM, Volkov wrote:
At 4/24/2010 6:56:44 PM, FREEDO wrote:
What I mean is that ,in my view on the matter, forcibly removing these people from the country is unjust. Open the borders.

Why? Why is sending back those that come over to your country illegally a bad thing, and why should the borders be opened? Just out of principle?

Why do we have a right to kick them out? Why do they have any less a right to pursue happiness? It is inhumane. My view is not the one needing to explain itself. The need for such an institution is the view for which the burden of explaining itself lies.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
Kleptin
Posts: 5,095
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4/24/2010 7:12:36 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/24/2010 6:56:44 PM, FREEDO wrote:
At 4/24/2010 6:51:21 PM, Volkov wrote:
At 4/24/2010 6:50:14 PM, FREEDO wrote:
There's no such thing as an illegal person.

.... but there is such a thing as an undocumented immigrant and illegal immigration.

What I mean is that ,in my view on the matter, forcibly removing these people from the country is unjust. Open the boarders.

Unjust based on what, exactly? If they're here illegally, how is it unjust to boot them out?
: At 5/2/2010 2:43:54 PM, innomen wrote:
It isn't about finding a theory, philosophy or doctrine and thinking it's the answer, but a practical application of one's experiences that is the answer.

: At 10/28/2010 2:40:07 PM, jharry wrote: I have already been given the greatest Gift that anyone could ever hope for [Life], I would consider myself selfish if I expected anything more.
Volkov
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4/24/2010 7:17:09 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/24/2010 7:12:02 PM, FREEDO wrote:
Why do we have a right to kick them out?

Because they're in the country illegally, not paying taxes, using resources unknowingly, and all essentially for free.

Why do they have any less a right to pursue happiness?

They have all the right in the world, but why should they be able to "pursue happiness," use the resources of the US government, without contributing a cent to it? They can pursue happiness all they want - but why must they come over illegally to do it? Why don't they go through the process so we know whats going on? You have no answer for this, I suspect - you're standing on principle, not reality.

It is inhumane.

What's inhumane is knowingly coming over to the country through criminal means, using and wasting resources without letting the various governments know that they need to do this and that to ensure proper accommodation and resource availability, and possibly costing people who need it - like children on the street - the chance to get access to those resources.
Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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4/24/2010 7:39:43 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/24/2010 6:22:42 PM, Volkov wrote:
I mean, racial profiling, for all its ills, probably gets the job done in the end. I know the Israelis have some good results with it, though its a completely different situation, isn't it...

On the contrary, racial profiling can have extremely detrimental effects when it comes to things like terrorism (I know this is about Mexicans, but hey all threads get derailed a lil bit). It's pretty much what Mao Zedong's "On Guerilla Warfare" tells you to do and actually I'm on my way out right now so I can't explain all of the reasons why this sucks - BUT I will say that it's blatantly obvious why it's retarded in the name of terrorism: You train all your people to look for a nice Muslim and then bam the terrorists send a black Nigerian or some white nut and all of that goes out the window. Do they really think terrorists don't know they're being profiled? Haha I'm pretty sure they'd plan ahead if it were crucial to their plan. But anyway...

I think that this is indeed a slippery slope toward violating American rights. Sheriff Joe Arpaio from AZ is one of the most popular/hated sheriffs in the country for how he treats not only illegal immigrants but anyone who "looks Mexican." They become targeted and have their rights violated. He has admitted that one of the ways he targets illegals is by noticing how they dress, because apparently you can "just tell" by their clothes.

Wtf? So everyone who isn't dressed 'properly' and looks a lil brown will now be harassed on the street? This is ludicrous. People's constitutional rights are being violated left and right and this law will probably only strengthen that injustice; after all J. Arpaio claims the law was already on his side before this bill. It's just like the Patriot Act and every other piece of BS legislation. They sell it to the people under the guise of "protection" but what it really does is eliminate liberty.
President of DDO
Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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4/24/2010 7:44:49 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
As a side note, I agree with Freedo. Anyone who is really a "capitalist" would see that the logic of keeping these people out is pretty silly. If they're willing to work for less, then why shouldn't an employer be able to hire them, hm? Of course it's bad if they don't pay taxes... so make them pay taxes. And if it gets so populated in this country that it becomes a problem (err, the midwest is pretty empty and flat if you ask me) then provide opportunist investors with an incentive to start building something productive and profitable in Mexico. If the government/ gangs / corruption are a problem there then DECRIMINALIZE DRUGS and - wait... wait... this just in... it would solve the problem!!! Anyway - going out now but bbl. I expect a lot of criticism for when I return ; )
President of DDO
comoncents
Posts: 5,647
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4/24/2010 8:21:03 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/24/2010 6:56:44 PM, FREEDO wrote:
At 4/24/2010 6:51:21 PM, Volkov wrote:
At 4/24/2010 6:50:14 PM, FREEDO wrote:
There's no such thing as an illegal person.

.... but there is such a thing as an undocumented immigrant and illegal immigration.

What I mean is that ,in my view on the matter, forcibly removing these people from the country is unjust. Open the boarders.

Nooooooooo!
Horrible idea.
Let them apply for citizenship, get in and than allow them to come in.
banker
Posts: 1,370
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4/24/2010 8:29:29 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Immigration is not our problem..!
This bill is designed by cowards who are not strong enough to deal with our real problem

China grew its economy by 12 percent we go in the other direction..!

No one is doing anything becuase their cowards..!
the most important source for muslim Arabs:

"And thereafter We [Allah] said to the Children of Israel: 'Dwell securely in the Promised Land. And when the last warning will come to pass, we will gather you together in a mingled crowd'.".

- Qur'an 17:104 -

Any sincere muslim must recognize the Land they call "Palestine" as the Jewish Homeland, according to the book considered by muslims to be the most sacred word and Allah's ultimate revelation.

Ibn Khaldun, one of the most creditable
Cody_Franklin
Posts: 9,483
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4/24/2010 8:45:50 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/24/2010 7:44:49 PM, theLwerd wrote:
As a side note, I agree with Freedo. Anyone who is really a "capitalist" would see that the logic of keeping these people out is pretty silly. If they're willing to work for less, then why shouldn't an employer be able to hire them, hm?

It's a question which I myself have considered, and I think of it like this:

First off, if we want to decrease immigration, we have to remove the incentives for immigrating illegally. A lot of the benefits that illegals inadvertently end up with (such as welfare, education, and in some less common instances, things like Medicare and Social Security) could easily be eliminated, which would discourage many immigrants from making the trip, given that their survival isn't guaranteed by a mandatory safety net.

Of those that continue to come in search of work, there would have to be some degree of verifiability in terms of identity, to ensure that the risk of a terrorist attack or some such threat is reasonably minimized. It would be a bit idiotic in today's volatile world to welcome every last person with open arms by virtue of their being human. Given that one of the government's functions (speaking from an Objectivist standpoint, obviously) is the military, I could easily see that kind of "screening" being done militarily to ensure that immigrants are harmless. Hell, I'm sure that there would be private organizations willing to screen people, and send along a positive report.

It's a bare thought, I know, but I'm not exactly the most knowledgeable person on matters of immigration (in addition to the fact that I am dead tired).

Of course it's bad if they don't pay taxes... so make them pay taxes.

Let's not.

And if it gets so populated in this country that it becomes a problem (err, the midwest is pretty empty and flat if you ask me) then provide opportunist investors with an incentive to start building something productive and profitable in Mexico.

I don't know about that.

If the government/ gangs / corruption are a problem there then DECRIMINALIZE DRUGS and - wait... wait... this just in... it would solve the problem!!! Anyway - going out now but bbl. I expect a lot of criticism for when I return ; )

I don't know if decriminalizing drugs is going to universally solve gangs and corruption. And I mean, come on. In today's world, decriminalization of drugs would just lead to their being taxed by some government that's already too involved in both social and economic business.
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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4/24/2010 11:08:58 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
What's the "probable cause" which allows the cops to demand papers???

walking while Mexican?

I'd say if you get detained b/c you committed a crime and it becomes evident you are also trespassing on the state.. then you should be held responsible for both...

but how can the state observe that the crime of Trespassing was occuring???

Cops NEED probable cause to Demand your papers or your person.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
FREEDO
Posts: 21,057
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5/2/2010 12:08:12 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
I can't stand the hypocrisy of the religious-right on this issue.
Out of one side of their mouth they say that our rights our given to us by God and that the constitution merely recognizes it, but out of the other side they say that illegal immigrants shouldn't have American rights because they're not citizens.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
Korashk
Posts: 4,597
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5/2/2010 12:31:15 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
Here's the part of the bill that people have a problem with, and honestly I think that most of them are overreacting. I mean honestly, a protest with tens of thousands of people involved to protest a bill that forces the government to enforce laws THAT ALREADY EXIST. Methinks that few to none of those people have actually read the bill.

· Prohibits law enforcement officials and law enforcement agencies of this state or counties, municipalities and political subdivisions from restricting or limiting the enforcement of the federal immigration laws to less than the full extent permitted by federal law.

· Requires officials and agencies to reasonably attempt to determine the immigration status of a person involved in a lawful contact where reasonable suspicion exists regarding the immigration status of the person, except if the determination may hinder or obstruct an investigation.

· Stipulates that if the person is arrested, the person's immigration status must be determined before the person is released and must be verified with the federal government.

· Stipulates that a law enforcement official or agency cannot solely consider race, color or national origin when implementing these provisions, except as permitted by the U.S. or Arizona Constitution.

· Specifies that a person is presumed to be lawfully present if the person provides any of the following:

Ø A valid Arizona driver license.
Ø A valid Arizona nonoperating identification license.
Ø A valid tribal enrollment card or other form of tribal identification.
Ø A valid federal, state or local government issued identification, if the issuing entity requires proof of legal presence before issuance.
When large numbers of otherwise-law abiding people break specific laws en masse, it's usually a fault that lies with the law. - Unknown
Korashk
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5/2/2010 12:32:22 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
Also, link:

http://www.azleg.gov...
When large numbers of otherwise-law abiding people break specific laws en masse, it's usually a fault that lies with the law. - Unknown
Zetsubou
Posts: 4,933
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5/2/2010 12:39:10 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/2/2010 12:08:12 AM, FREEDO wrote:
I can't stand the hypocrisy of the religious-right on this issue.
Out of one side of their mouth they say that our rights our given to us by God and that the constitution merely recognizes it, but out of the other side they say that illegal immigrants shouldn't have American rights because they're not citizens.

Religon and Immigration, lol. They have that right as stated by the Ninth Amendment to the US Constitution. Aliens have rights.

And The Ninth Amendment is selfevident... by God.

God has in no way given divine right to Americans, I don't see no angel or Messiah talking to them. Bloody Republicians making stuff up.
'sup DDO -- july 2013
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
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5/2/2010 12:41:09 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
Neither the United States nor Arizona is the name of any private property. No one has rightful standing to impede entry to these areas qua these areas against people who have not initiated force, for entering is not itself an initiation of force.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
jonpistone2
Posts: 23
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5/2/2010 7:54:10 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/24/2010 6:56:44 PM, FREEDO wrote:
At 4/24/2010 6:51:21 PM, Volkov wrote:
At 4/24/2010 6:50:14 PM, FREEDO wrote:
There's no such thing as an illegal person.

.... but there is such a thing as an undocumented immigrant and illegal immigration.

What I mean is that ,in my view on the matter, forcibly removing these people from the country is unjust. Open the boarders.

So we should let millions of people in the US. Not sure who they are or where they are. Dont know their name, they dont pay into the tax system, they are not counted or tracked in anyway. We should not only let these 12 million stay, but another 500 million more enter if those people want?

How many people do you think could live in the US at once time? 50 billion? Should we try packing them all in? And regulate only the 300 million Americans? Sound like a good plan?? HAHA...please tell me you are joking!
I-am-a-panda
Posts: 15,380
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5/2/2010 7:55:45 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/2/2010 7:54:10 AM, jonpistone2 wrote:
At 4/24/2010 6:56:44 PM, FREEDO wrote:
At 4/24/2010 6:51:21 PM, Volkov wrote:
At 4/24/2010 6:50:14 PM, FREEDO wrote:
There's no such thing as an illegal person.

.... but there is such a thing as an undocumented immigrant and illegal immigration.

What I mean is that ,in my view on the matter, forcibly removing these people from the country is unjust. Open the boarders.

So we should let millions of people in the US. Not sure who they are or where they are. Dont know their name, they dont pay into the tax system, they are not counted or tracked in anyway. We should not only let these 12 million stay, but another 500 million more enter if those people want?

How many people do you think could live in the US at once time? 50 billion? Should we try packing them all in? And regulate only the 300 million Americans? Sound like a good plan?? HAHA...please tell me you are joking!

I'm not supportive of Freedos whacky idea, but if that many people did immigrate there, there would be emigration out en masse.

Besides, I doubt 500 million people will want to immigrate to the U.S.
Pizza. I have enormous respect for Pizza.
jonpistone2
Posts: 23
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5/2/2010 7:56:53 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/24/2010 7:44:49 PM, theLwerd wrote:
As a side note, I agree with Freedo. Anyone who is really a "capitalist" would see that the logic of keeping these people out is pretty silly. If they're willing to work for less, then why shouldn't an employer be able to hire them, hm?

Because the government has set laws forcing companies away from capitalism. It's called the 'minimum wage'.
jonpistone2
Posts: 23
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5/2/2010 8:03:06 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/24/2010 11:08:58 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
What's the "probable cause" which allows the cops to demand papers???

walking while Mexican?


It's dumb comments like this which even started such a debate. Their probable cause can only come into play AFTER they witness a law being broken or suspect one will about be broken. AFTER that issue is passes, THEN they may request your papers. How is this different from giving a drivers license when you get pulled over for speeding? How is this any different than the IRS asking if you paid for insurance under the Obama Care Law and mandating proof of it before they fine you?!?

But to make such uneducated statements such as yours only fans the flames of racism that you yourself are creating rather than debating the issues.
jonpistone2
Posts: 23
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5/2/2010 8:04:25 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/2/2010 12:31:15 AM, Korashk wrote:
Here's the part of the bill that people have a problem with, and honestly I think that most of them are overreacting. I mean honestly, a protest with tens of thousands of people involved to protest a bill that forces the government to enforce laws THAT ALREADY EXIST.

people like to ignore that the vast majority of this bill is a direct copy from the federal law!

GREAT point Korashk!!!!!
jonpistone2
Posts: 23
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5/2/2010 8:06:47 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/2/2010 7:55:45 AM, I-am-a-panda wrote:

Besides, I doubt 500 million people will want to immigrate to the U.S.

Hard to doubt something that you or I have NO clue about. Open boarders would let MORE than this number of people pass through...unchecked and undocumented. That is not a safe thing for the US just in terms of safety and defence. Don't u agree?!?
I-am-a-panda
Posts: 15,380
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5/2/2010 8:10:43 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/2/2010 8:06:47 AM, jonpistone2 wrote:
At 5/2/2010 7:55:45 AM, I-am-a-panda wrote:

Besides, I doubt 500 million people will want to immigrate to the U.S.


Hard to doubt something that you or I have NO clue about. Open boarders would let MORE than this number of people pass through...unchecked and undocumented. That is not a safe thing for the US just in terms of safety and defence. Don't u agree?!?

....Jonpistole, how many people live in the world?

6 billion.

6 billion - 300 million in America = 5.7 billion

500 million \ 5.7 billion

Means 1 in 11.4 people in this world have the means and motive to emigrate to America.

DDO - The place for logical discussion
Pizza. I have enormous respect for Pizza.
jonpistone2
Posts: 23
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5/2/2010 8:26:07 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/2/2010 8:10:43 AM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
At 5/2/2010 8:06:47 AM, jonpistone2 wrote:
At 5/2/2010 7:55:45 AM, I-am-a-panda wrote:

Besides, I doubt 500 million people will want to immigrate to the U.S.


Hard to doubt something that you or I have NO clue about. Open boarders would let MORE than this number of people pass through...unchecked and undocumented. That is not a safe thing for the US just in terms of safety and defence. Don't u agree?!?

....Jonpistole, how many people live in the world?

6 billion.

6 billion - 300 million in America = 5.7 billion

500 million \ 5.7 billion

Means 1 in 11.4 people in this world have the means and motive to emigrate to America.

DDO - The place for logical discussion

Not sure you proved anything here. I agree its not very likely, but just because something is not likely is not a reason you can mock it. And most would understand the number I typed was just a random number, nothing specific from some previous data. My point still stands, and you have yet to dispute it.

p.s. you forgot to count the 12-20 million illegal immigrants in that 300 million American count. I understand we cannot count the illegal immigrants living on American soil (one of the problems!!!!) but you still must count them when talking about people living on the land. Thank you :)
jonpistone2
Posts: 23
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5/2/2010 8:27:34 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
But anyway, I am a little off topic here. Do you, I-am-a-panda, think American should fully open their boarders for anyone to enter?

That is the question I was making comments about. Do you agree with that?
I-am-a-panda
Posts: 15,380
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5/2/2010 8:31:54 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/2/2010 8:26:07 AM, jonpistone2 wrote:
At 5/2/2010 8:10:43 AM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
At 5/2/2010 8:06:47 AM, jonpistone2 wrote:
At 5/2/2010 7:55:45 AM, I-am-a-panda wrote:

Besides, I doubt 500 million people will want to immigrate to the U.S.


Hard to doubt something that you or I have NO clue about. Open boarders would let MORE than this number of people pass through...unchecked and undocumented. That is not a safe thing for the US just in terms of safety and defence. Don't u agree?!?

....Jonpistole, how many people live in the world?

6 billion.

6 billion - 300 million in America = 5.7 billion

500 million \ 5.7 billion

Means 1 in 11.4 people in this world have the means and motive to emigrate to America.

DDO - The place for logical discussion


Not sure you proved anything here. I agree its not very likely, but just because something is not likely is not a reason you can mock it. And most would understand the number I typed was just a random number, nothing specific from some previous data. My point still stands, and you have yet to dispute it.

All I'm sing is if you're going to pull figures out of your *ss, at least make them believable

p.s. you forgot to count the 12-20 million illegal immigrants in that 300 million American count. I understand we cannot count the illegal immigrants living on American soil (one of the problems!!!!) but you still must count them when talking about people living on the land. Thank you :)

That just means more people in America, and a greater ratio of people who want to emigrate
Pizza. I have enormous respect for Pizza.