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On Behalf of All White Males

Garbanza
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11/5/2014 1:57:20 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
Oh sorry. I misread it. I thought you were apologizing TO white males. But instead you're apologizing FROM white males. Lol.
Garbanza
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11/5/2014 2:01:47 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
I think you're feeling grouchy because you're a low status male. It reminds me of what some famous guy said once (can't remember who) - that why is HE so privileged just because there are some OTHER men out there, who he doesn't know personally, who have excellent jobs?

Fair point. Feminism is often very class biased. I don't think it's so much that we hate low status males as much as we don't even think about them. When we talk about male privilege, we're obviously not referring to homeless men on the streets. We're talking about bossy guys in suits.
jimtimmy4
Posts: 321
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11/5/2014 2:19:00 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/5/2014 2:01:47 AM, Garbanza wrote:
I think you're feeling grouchy because you're a low status male. It reminds me of what some famous guy said once (can't remember who) - that why is HE so privileged just because there are some OTHER men out there, who he doesn't know personally, who have excellent jobs?

Fair point. Feminism is often very class biased. I don't think it's so much that we hate low status males as much as we don't even think about them. When we talk about male privilege, we're obviously not referring to homeless men on the streets. We're talking about bossy guys in suits.

First off. I'm not really a low status male. I mean, I don't know how you define that, but I doubt I fit.

I am, in fact, privileged in many ways. But, my sex/gender is not one of those reasons. The girls who were born into similar families as to mine are every bit as privileged as I am.

Men are overrepresented at both the top and bottom of society because the male talent distribution is much more unequal and men are less risk averse. No privilege there just biological reality.
Garbanza
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11/5/2014 2:49:55 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/5/2014 2:19:00 AM, jimtimmy4 wrote:
First off. I'm not really a low status male. I mean, I don't know how you define that, but I doubt I fit.

I am, in fact, privileged in many ways. But, my sex/gender is not one of those reasons. The girls who were born into similar families as to mine are every bit as privileged as I am.

Men are overrepresented at both the top and bottom of society because the male talent distribution is much more unequal and men are less risk averse. No privilege there just biological reality.

But why do all the "male" jobs pay more than the "female" jobs and why the big discrepancy after 30?

http://www.payscale.com...
Greyparrot
Posts: 14,250
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11/5/2014 6:32:15 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/5/2014 2:49:55 AM, Garbanza wrote:
At 11/5/2014 2:19:00 AM, jimtimmy4 wrote:
First off. I'm not really a low status male. I mean, I don't know how you define that, but I doubt I fit.

I am, in fact, privileged in many ways. But, my sex/gender is not one of those reasons. The girls who were born into similar families as to mine are every bit as privileged as I am.

Men are overrepresented at both the top and bottom of society because the male talent distribution is much more unequal and men are less risk averse. No privilege there just biological reality.

But why do all the "male" jobs pay more than the "female" jobs and why the big discrepancy after 30?

http://www.payscale.com...

That site claims uneven pay for the same job.

Pay compensates work done, not a "job."

A woman who takes 3 months maternal leave won't be paid the same as a male in the same "job."

A woman who leaves and comes back has to do extra work to catch up to where she left off, or else take a pay cut for not having the same work output.

Women who make minimum wage are paid the same as males. In higher pay teirs, employers only need to see the work get done, not pay a woman extra for being born with a vagina.
mortsdor
Posts: 1,181
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11/5/2014 7:53:46 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/5/2014 2:19:00 AM, jimtimmy4 wrote:
Men are overrepresented at both the top and bottom of society because the male talent distribution is much more unequal and men are less risk averse.

Males intelligence is more variable, but I don't think it's a lot more variable..

But yeah, that could bump some up in income a bit. and then the ones in the Low category can still bump up income by taking personally risky jobs (which males more often take then females)
kbub
Posts: 1,377
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11/5/2014 8:04:14 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/5/2014 12:02:37 AM, jimtimmy4 wrote:
I'm sorry.

We don't really care about that. But we hope you do better in the future.

That being said, there's a difference between whiteness and blackness as skin colors and advocacies. I assume you mean the latter, otherwise it makes no sense to speak on behalf of "all white males."
PotBelliedGeek
Posts: 4,298
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11/5/2014 9:04:33 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
I'm a white male and I have nothing to apologize for.
Religion Forum Ambassador

HUFFLEPUFF FOR LIFE!!!!!!!!!!!!
jimtimmy4
Posts: 321
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11/5/2014 7:18:12 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/5/2014 2:49:55 AM, Garbanza wrote:
At 11/5/2014 2:19:00 AM, jimtimmy4 wrote:
First off. I'm not really a low status male. I mean, I don't know how you define that, but I doubt I fit.

I am, in fact, privileged in many ways. But, my sex/gender is not one of those reasons. The girls who were born into similar families as to mine are every bit as privileged as I am.

Men are overrepresented at both the top and bottom of society because the male talent distribution is much more unequal and men are less risk averse. No privilege there just biological reality.

But why do all the "male" jobs pay more than the "female" jobs and why the big discrepancy after 30?

http://www.payscale.com...

Because women have to go on maternity leave and value mothering more. Women tend to value work and money less in general.

Not discrimination. Biology and preferences.
jimtimmy4
Posts: 321
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11/5/2014 7:19:22 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/5/2014 2:51:18 AM, Garbanza wrote:
Nursing and teaching small children are tough jobs.

Tough?

Maybe.

But, they're safe, flexible, and, for a lot of women, fulfilling. That means they can afford to pay them less because of supply and demand.

It's not just how hard the job is. Men's jobs are less flexible, less fulfilling, and more dangerous by a lot.
jimtimmy4
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11/5/2014 7:20:00 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/5/2014 8:04:14 AM, kbub wrote:
At 11/5/2014 12:02:37 AM, jimtimmy4 wrote:
I'm sorry.

We don't really care about that. But we hope you do better in the future.

That being said, there's a difference between whiteness and blackness as skin colors and advocacies. I assume you mean the latter, otherwise it makes no sense to speak on behalf of "all white males."

They're races. That's more than skin color or advocacies.
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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11/6/2014 12:22:34 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/5/2014 12:02:37 AM, jimtimmy4 wrote:
I'm sorry.

All right, now that that is all taken care of, lets continue on with our lives.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
kbub
Posts: 1,377
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11/6/2014 7:06:32 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/6/2014 12:22:34 AM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 11/5/2014 12:02:37 AM, jimtimmy4 wrote:
I'm sorry.

All right, now that that is all taken care of, lets continue on with our lives.

Haha yeah right. No one cares about an apology. We want change.
Bennett91
Posts: 4,206
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11/6/2014 7:27:20 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/6/2014 7:06:32 AM, kbub wrote:
At 11/6/2014 12:22:34 AM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 11/5/2014 12:02:37 AM, jimtimmy4 wrote:
I'm sorry.

All right, now that that is all taken care of, lets continue on with our lives.

Haha yeah right. No one cares about an apology. We want change.

Weeeeeellllll the GOP just took the senate sooooooooo yea ... You're gonna have to wait a couple years.
kbub
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11/6/2014 7:37:21 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/5/2014 11:56:37 PM, intellectuallyprimitive wrote:
I'm not sorry for being white, nor male, and I never have and never will.

No one wants you to be. Really. The OP is an absurd (an entirely inaccurate) representation of what feminists want. No one wants you to be sorry for being of a race or sex. All we're looking for is to have social, political, an economic equality between these categories, and we'd of course appreciate your help in achieving that.
Ore_Ele
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11/6/2014 8:00:55 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/6/2014 7:06:32 AM, kbub wrote:
At 11/6/2014 12:22:34 AM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 11/5/2014 12:02:37 AM, jimtimmy4 wrote:
I'm sorry.

All right, now that that is all taken care of, lets continue on with our lives.

Haha yeah right. No one cares about an apology. We want change.

I do too. I want the world to stop assuming that because I have a Y choromosone that all I care about is sex and that the only reason I would say "hello" or "good evening" to a woman is because I want to screw her. You wanna talk about sexism in society, I would love to be consider an actual person.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
kbub
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11/6/2014 8:17:33 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/6/2014 8:00:55 AM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 11/6/2014 7:06:32 AM, kbub wrote:
At 11/6/2014 12:22:34 AM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 11/5/2014 12:02:37 AM, jimtimmy4 wrote:
I'm sorry.

All right, now that that is all taken care of, lets continue on with our lives.

Haha yeah right. No one cares about an apology. We want change.

I do too. I want the world to stop assuming that because I have a Y choromosone that all I care about is sex and that the only reason I would say "hello" or "good evening" to a woman is because I want to screw her. You wanna talk about sexism in society, I would love to be consider an actual person.

Good. That sexism is awful and damaging to everyone.
jimtimmy4
Posts: 321
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11/6/2014 8:30:40 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/6/2014 7:37:21 AM, kbub wrote:
At 11/5/2014 11:56:37 PM, intellectuallyprimitive wrote:
I'm not sorry for being white, nor male, and I never have and never will.

No one wants you to be. Really. The OP is an absurd (an entirely inaccurate) representation of what feminists want. No one wants you to be sorry for being of a race or sex. All we're looking for is to have social, political, an economic equality between these categories, and we'd of course appreciate your help in achieving that.

So, Chairman, what exactly can we do to that end other than endlessly apologize for all that white male privilege that we have?
mortsdor
Posts: 1,181
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11/6/2014 8:40:28 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/6/2014 7:37:21 AM, kbub wrote:
All we're looking for is to have social, political, an economic equality between these categories, and we'd of course appreciate your help in achieving that.

I agree that there are illegitimate sources of inequality that should be addressed...

But I think that there is also the possibility that some differences in results that pop up in the world could, plausibly, reflect actual differences in behavior
(that may be induced by either biology or culture, but is more complex than simple straight up discrimination)

For example, women care to have a financially stable man as a partner, and men don't care quite as much about whether their partner makes a bunch of money.

Why things are this way is complicated, and certainly has to do with culture, but could plausibly be somehow related to actual sex-differences I would think..
But regardless of why it's the case, it's the fact of this situation.

This reality could be A source of Some of the trends of men making more than women, no?.. That is, men, for the purpose of wanting attract women, want to make money more, and so focus on it. Meanwhile women do not have the same incentive when it comes to attracting men.

Granted, there are lots more reasons to want to make money than attracting a mate.. Life, and what we care about in it, is complicated, and causes are many. And there may be many more such relevant differences between men and women, no?

Do you think it Completely Impossible that any such 'inequalities' reflect legitimate differences in the behavior of men and women?

b/c, though I think there are certainly some illegitimate inequalities between sexes in the world, I would acknowledge that lots of issues are also very complex and not so simply straight up discrimination to be hammered at until it looks 'equal'.

Feminism in the media makes it seem as though there's no subtlety in their approach to such complex issues.
kbub
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11/6/2014 12:11:42 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/6/2014 8:30:40 AM, jimtimmy4 wrote:
At 11/6/2014 7:37:21 AM, kbub wrote:
At 11/5/2014 11:56:37 PM, intellectuallyprimitive wrote:
I'm not sorry for being white, nor male, and I never have and never will.

No one wants you to be. Really. The OP is an absurd (an entirely inaccurate) representation of what feminists want. No one wants you to be sorry for being of a race or sex. All we're looking for is to have social, political, an economic equality between these categories, and we'd of course appreciate your help in achieving that.


So, Chairman, what exactly can we do to that end other than endlessly apologize for all that white male privilege that we have?

First, everyone in involved in this structuring of inequality--me too, of course. Apologizing is only good insofar as it creates change.

Instead of apologizing for white privilege, we can work to end it. We should all be advocates to that end, no matter our race, ethnicity, religion, or gender.
kbub
Posts: 1,377
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11/6/2014 12:28:21 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/6/2014 8:40:28 AM, mortsdor wrote:
At 11/6/2014 7:37:21 AM, kbub wrote:
All we're looking for is to have social, political, an economic equality between these categories, and we'd of course appreciate your help in achieving that.

I agree that there are illegitimate sources of inequality that should be addressed...

Cool

But I think that there is also the possibility that some differences in results that pop up in the world could, plausibly, reflect actual differences in behavior
(that may be induced by either biology or culture, but is more complex than simple straight up discrimination)

Differences do not necessarily mean inequality. There are often differences in the characteristics of men generally and characteristics of women generally. That in no way means that there needs to be inequalties between the two. After all, everyone is different from everyone else in some way, but that does not necessitate political, social, or economic inequality, which is my focus.

For example, women care to have a financially stable man as a partner, and men don't care quite as much about whether their partner makes a bunch of money.

I think that *some* women care to have a fanatically stable male partner. And some men care to hav a financially stable male partner. And some men care to have a financially stable male partner. And some women care to have a financially stable female partner.

There is a stereotype that the "man of the house" is supposed to be the breadwinner, while the supposedly female partner says at home. I think tha this idea reflects more of a stereotype rather than a robust truth. I also think that this kind of stereotype is worth tearing down, because it damages everyone, particularly women in the workplace.


Why things are this way is complicated, and certainly has to do with culture, but could plausibly be somehow related to actual sex-differences I would think..
But regardless of why it's the case, it's the fact of this situation.

Well, I don't think there's any sex difference that justifies women working for less pay. Furthermore, even if there was a difference that would be also unfair. For example, it is illegal to pay someone who is in a wheelchair less because of the wheelchair. The case of sex should be much easier, because there isn't generally a difference is capability.

It may be a fact now that there is a gender wage gap, but like other forms of inequality, this can be changed!

This reality could be A source of Some of the trends of men making more than women, no?.. That is, men, for the purpose of wanting attract women, want to make money more, and so focus on it. Meanwhile women do not have the same incentive when it comes to attracting men.

Most women want to work for other reasons than attracting a male. I think that society tends to overestimate the role attracting a male plays in women's lives.

Granted, there are lots more reasons to want to make money than attracting a mate.. Life, and what we care about in it, is complicated, and causes are many. And there may be many more such relevant differences between men and women, no?

Like what? In minimum wage jobs, pay is equal for both genders. Women are not worse leaders or less smart. Even if there were differences, that does not justify this inequality.

Do you think it Completely Impossible that any such 'inequalities' reflect legitimate differences in the behavior of men and women?


Again, different and unequal are two different things. Let's be careful.

b/c, though I think there are certainly some illegitimate inequalities between sexes in the world, I would acknowledge that lots of issues are also very complex and not so simply straight up discrimination to be hammered at until it looks 'equal'.

Granted, society is complicated! But let's not let that scare us away from trying to make change.


Feminism in the media makes it seem as though there's no subtlety in their approach to such complex issues.

Feminism is very broad, and can be very complex. Definitely, though, there needs to be a nuanced approach to fightin inequality, and feminists have been writing many things for decades to that end. I challenge you to explore them! I think you are a potential feminist.
thett3
Posts: 14,336
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11/6/2014 12:36:06 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/5/2014 8:04:14 AM, kbub wrote:
At 11/5/2014 12:02:37 AM, jimtimmy4 wrote:
I'm sorry.

We don't really care about that. But we hope you do better in the future.

That being said, there's a difference between whiteness and blackness as skin colors and advocacies. I assume you mean the latter, otherwise it makes no sense to speak on behalf of "all white males."

You're a white male...
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: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
jimtimmy4
Posts: 321
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11/6/2014 12:59:27 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/6/2014 12:11:42 PM, kbub wrote:
At 11/6/2014 8:30:40 AM, jimtimmy4 wrote:
At 11/6/2014 7:37:21 AM, kbub wrote:
At 11/5/2014 11:56:37 PM, intellectuallyprimitive wrote:
I'm not sorry for being white, nor male, and I never have and never will.

No one wants you to be. Really. The OP is an absurd (an entirely inaccurate) representation of what feminists want. No one wants you to be sorry for being of a race or sex. All we're looking for is to have social, political, an economic equality between these categories, and we'd of course appreciate your help in achieving that.


So, Chairman, what exactly can we do to that end other than endlessly apologize for all that white male privilege that we have?

First, everyone in involved in this structuring of inequality--me too, of course. Apologizing is only good insofar as it creates change.

Instead of apologizing for white privilege, we can work to end it. We should all be advocates to that end, no matter our race, ethnicity, religion, or gender.

Is it possible that there isn't some invisible white "privilege" and instead white people are just better behaved and more skilled?

No. Of course not. Even though that might be what the evidence suggests, we all know science is racist so we turn to SJWs instead.
mortsdor
Posts: 1,181
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11/6/2014 1:50:49 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/6/2014 12:28:21 PM, kbub wrote:
At 11/6/2014 8:40:28 AM, mortsdor wrote:
At 11/6/2014 7:37:21 AM, kbub wrote:
All we're looking for is to have social, political, an economic equality between these categories, and we'd of course appreciate your help in achieving that.

I agree that there are illegitimate sources of inequality that should be addressed...

Cool

But I think that there is also the possibility that some differences in results that pop up in the world could, plausibly, reflect actual differences in behavior
(that may be induced by either biology or culture, but is more complex than simple straight up discrimination)

Differences do not necessarily mean inequality. There are often differences in the characteristics of men generally and characteristics of women generally. That in no way means that there needs to be inequalties between the two. After all, everyone is different from everyone else in some way, but that does not necessitate political, social, or economic inequality, which is my focus.

For example, women care to have a financially stable man as a partner, and men don't care quite as much about whether their partner makes a bunch of money.

I think that *some* women care to have a fanatically stable male partner. And some men care to hav a financially stable male partner. And some men care to have a financially stable male partner. And some women care to have a financially stable female partner.

I should have perhaps said "Most".. Clearly this doesn't hold in all cases but it's far from an equal split.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk...

There is a stereotype that the "man of the house" is supposed to be the breadwinner, while the supposedly female partner says at home. I think tha this idea reflects more of a stereotype rather than a robust truth. I also think that this kind of stereotype is worth tearing down, because it damages everyone, particularly women in the workplace.

I wasn't referring to the stereotype of gender roles... I was referring to what women and men prefer in a mate... and how that might affect what women and men seek.

Why things are this way is complicated, and certainly has to do with culture, but could plausibly be somehow related to actual sex-differences I would think..
But regardless of why it's the case, it's the fact of this situation.

Well, I don't think there's any sex difference that justifies women working for less pay.

Firstly, women are not one group to be so simply considered as a whole... Rather they, as men, are a bunch of different individuals with lots of different values.

However, As I've pointed out, there can be different General value-trends between men and women... Though there's certainly individuals who don't fit the trends... It would seem that women for example prefer a mate with money and high social status moreso than men wish that in a mate.

Might men therefore have some reason to value making money more than women generally would?

As I said, there's lots of reasons to want to make money, but this is one seeming reason that is more of a factor for men.

Furthermore, even if there was a difference that would be also unfair. For example, it is illegal to pay someone who is in a wheelchair less because of the wheelchair. The case of sex should be much easier, because there isn't generally a difference is capability.

This is a specific thing I'm talking about
(which doesn't explain everything, but is important to demonstrate the principle)

In what I've discussed, Men have greater incentive to make money, because the bulk of potential mates would prefer to mate with a man that has money. Having money helps women Less in the mating game... so they have less incentive to make money on this count.

People do things for reasons... And this particular reason (finding a mate) would provide more of an impetus for Men to dedicate themselves to succeeding/being useful at work, than that reason (finding a mate) would provide such an impetus to women.

It makes sense that employers would pay more dedicated/useful employees more.

are you certain that those men who make more in the same job haven't shown themselves more dedicated or useful?

This reality could be A source of Some of the trends of men making more than women, no?.. That is, men, for the purpose of wanting attract women, want to make money more, and so focus on it. Meanwhile women do not have the same incentive when it comes to attracting men.

Most women want to work for other reasons than attracting a male. I think that society tends to overestimate the role attracting a male plays in women's lives.

I'm suggesting that Men work to attract mates, and that women don't have to be as concerned about their job's role in attracting mates.

Granted, there are lots more reasons to want to make money than attracting a mate.. Life, and what we care about in it, is complicated, and causes are many. And there may be many more such relevant differences between men and women, no?

Like what? In minimum wage jobs, pay is equal for both genders. Women are not worse leaders or less smart. Even if there were differences, that does not justify this inequality.

I would think that in minimum wage jobs, which are low status and do not require great intelligence, that the women employed there are, on average, smarter than the men there.
That is, becaue Men have greater variability in intelligence... More low-scoring and more high scoring individuals on intelligence tests.. Whereas Women have a greater percentage that score mid-range.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov...

So if you take the bottom half of men they are on average less intelligent than the bottom half of women.

Also, for similar reasons, I would think that the men in more competitive, high status, intelligence-requiring jobs are probably on average smarter than the average women in those positions. :/

That is, if you take the top half of men, they are on average more intelligent than the top half of women.

Do you think it Completely Impossible that any such 'inequalities' reflect legitimate differences in the behavior of men and women?


Again, different and unequal are two different things. Let's be careful.


b/c, though I think there are certainly some illegitimate inequalities between sexes in the world, I would acknowledge that lots of issues are also very complex and not so simply straight up discrimination to be hammered at until it looks 'equal'.

Granted, society is complicated! But let's not let that scare us away from trying to make change.

Smacking complex interactions with an equality-hammer is not necessarily justice.

Feminism in the media makes it seem as though there's no subtlety in their approach to such complex issues.

Feminism is very broad, and can be very complex. Definitely, though, there needs to be a nuanced approach to fightin inequality, and feminists have been writing many things for decades to that end. I challenge you to explore them! I think you are a potential feminist.
mortsdor
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11/6/2014 2:05:59 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/6/2014 1:50:49 PM, mortsdor wrote:
I would think that in minimum wage jobs, which are low status and do not require great intelligence, that the women employed there are, on average, smarter than the men there.
That is, becaue Men have greater variability in intelligence... More low-scoring and more high scoring individuals on intelligence tests.. Whereas Women have a greater percentage that score mid-range.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov...

So if you take the bottom half of men they are on average less intelligent than the bottom half of women.

Also, for similar reasons, I would think that the men in more competitive, high status, intelligence-requiring jobs are probably on average smarter than the average women in those positions. :/

That is, if you take the top half of men, they are on average more intelligent than the top half of women.

As I responded to Jtimmy when he brought this up earlier in the thread, the differences in variability are not That Large... so though one would presume they'd have an effect, one would also presume it to be limited.

Granted, the fact that men who aren't the Lowest of the low in terms of intelligence can mitigate some of their misfortune when it comes to getting a decent wage by going into dangerous or physically demanding work, which pays a little bit more.
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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11/6/2014 2:31:05 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/6/2014 8:17:33 AM, kbub wrote:
At 11/6/2014 8:00:55 AM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 11/6/2014 7:06:32 AM, kbub wrote:
At 11/6/2014 12:22:34 AM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 11/5/2014 12:02:37 AM, jimtimmy4 wrote:
I'm sorry.

All right, now that that is all taken care of, lets continue on with our lives.

Haha yeah right. No one cares about an apology. We want change.

I do too. I want the world to stop assuming that because I have a Y choromosone that all I care about is sex and that the only reason I would say "hello" or "good evening" to a woman is because I want to screw her. You wanna talk about sexism in society, I would love to be consider an actual person.

Good. That sexism is awful and damaging to everyone.

So you'll speak out against "feminists" like Sally Gearhart and Marilyn French?
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"