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Belgium and Burqa Ban

Mirza
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4/29/2010 2:27:32 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
http://edition.cnn.com...

I read the news on a Danish news website, and read an article about a burqa ban in Belgium. Apparently, Belgium has almost reached its goal to become the first European nation to fully ban the burqa.

As a Muslim, fair-minded and civilized person, and most importantly a human being, I think that this is uncalled for, especially in a society where you are supposed to be doing whatever you wish to your own body. When a woman covers herself fully to feel comfortable and safe, some people who need to be educated on some subject wish to take that away from the modest woman. This is uncivilized. When Muslims around the world hear about this, do people in the West expect them to love them and welcome them in their own countries? Will any fair-mined person tell me that Muslims are to be blamed for hatred?

Only about 300-400 women in Belgium wear burqa, according to the CNN article that I have linked above. What kind of a disease has befallen these politicians so that they cannot see that the law that is about to apply is nonsense? What is wrong with those people? If a women with a fair mind decides to wear a burqa in a democratic society, then which part of the democratic political system gives the politicians the right to take the away the personal freedom from such a woman? In fact, the more she covers herself, the safer she is to herself and the society. She does awake any sexual thoughts of people.

Knowledge is fading away. People are getting more and more ignorant. If we keep letting people get so much brainwashed, even by politicians who can do very well in stand-up comedy, then we will have too many problems to consider even banning one single thing. If people want peace, tolerance, and understanding, then they should try to understand other people, tolerate them, and say peace be unto them. Those who look with evil eyes at a modest woman, as if she were the worst of people, they themselves are what? They are being intolerant, ignorant, and they should try to gain more knowledge.

How many women with burqa are criminals? I want some statistics. Are there any? Who are the worst of criminals? Those who stay pure and bring some value into a society? Or those who get intoxicated because their fellow politicians let them be so? Either ban everything from being naked/half naked to fully covered, intoxicants, adultery, and so forth, before banning something that does not even harm a person acting upon it, especially not an entire society or family.
Mirza
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4/29/2010 2:34:52 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/29/2010 2:33:20 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
If modest clothing is being banned then maybe we should ban sluttish clothes as well...
It cannot be even. Covering yourself fully can never be as dangerous in itself than being half-naked.
InsertNameHere
Posts: 15,699
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4/29/2010 2:37:40 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/29/2010 2:34:52 PM, Mirza wrote:
At 4/29/2010 2:33:20 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
If modest clothing is being banned then maybe we should ban sluttish clothes as well...
It cannot be even. Covering yourself fully can never be as dangerous in itself than being half-naked.

Well all I'm saying is that if they don't want women covering themselves then maybe they shouldn't be allowed to reveal themselves and be half-naked either.
Mirza
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4/29/2010 2:41:57 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/29/2010 2:37:40 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
Well all I'm saying is that if they don't want women covering themselves then maybe they shouldn't be allowed to reveal themselves and be half-naked either.
I know what you meant. It is still not even, though. Banning something safe, and trying to make it equal to banning something unsafe, is not logical.
Reasoning
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4/29/2010 2:47:22 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/29/2010 2:33:20 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
If modest clothing is being banned then maybe we should ban sluttish clothes as well...

As long as you don't ban "skinny jeans".
"What we really ought to ask the liberal, before we even begin addressing his agenda, is this: In what kind of society would he be a conservative?" - Joseph Sobran
InsertNameHere
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4/29/2010 2:49:18 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/29/2010 2:47:22 PM, Reasoning wrote:
At 4/29/2010 2:33:20 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
If modest clothing is being banned then maybe we should ban sluttish clothes as well...

As long as you don't ban "skinny jeans".

Skinny jeans are fine. If people want to wear them, it's fine. It's not like they're sluttish.
Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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4/29/2010 2:50:30 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
I agree with you for the most part, Mirza. The Belgium government has banned the burqa partly on the basis of "morality" and partly for national security.

In terms of "morality," I think it's a pretty disgusting assumption that the government feels it can and should impose its morals. Further, I think this is an extremely hypocritical endeavor. The government claims it's protecting women from being socially forced to wear the burqa (since Islam does not require it); however, in forbidding the burqa it's essentially doing the same thing: imposing social values on women. Women should be free to make their own choices about whether or not they wear the burqa - free from the influence of both oppressive men and oppressive government.

In terms of national security, I also think this is a pretty bogus load of crap. Are ski masks going to be forbidden too? How about wigs? Sun glasses? All of these things can mask a person's identity, yet are not being forbidden, thus this law blatantly targets Muslims which I think is unfairly discriminatory. If one is really that much of a threat to national security, then I highly doubt not wearing a burqa is going to stop them from doing damage if that's their plan/goal. Instead, all this does is promote unjust laws rooted in bigotry or at least not a whole lot of common sense. What a terrible and oppressive law. Shame on you, Belgium.
President of DDO
Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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4/29/2010 2:52:10 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/29/2010 2:41:57 PM, Mirza wrote:
At 4/29/2010 2:37:40 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
Well all I'm saying is that if they don't want women covering themselves then maybe they shouldn't be allowed to reveal themselves and be half-naked either.
I know what you meant. It is still not even, though. Banning something safe, and trying to make it equal to banning something unsafe, is not logical.

There is nothing "unsafe" about slutty clothes, just as there is nothing inherently safe about the burqa.
President of DDO
Danielle
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4/29/2010 2:53:14 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/29/2010 2:49:18 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:

Skinny jeans are fine. If people want to wear them, it's fine. It's not like they're sluttish.

Haha so now you think you should be able to dictate the way people dress? If a girl wants to dress like a slut, she should be able to - especially without interference from government.
President of DDO
InsertNameHere
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4/29/2010 2:54:54 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/29/2010 2:53:14 PM, theLwerd wrote:
At 4/29/2010 2:49:18 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:

Skinny jeans are fine. If people want to wear them, it's fine. It's not like they're sluttish.

Haha so now you think you should be able to dictate the way people dress? If a girl wants to dress like a slut, she should be able to - especially without interference from government.

No, I'm not for governments dictating how people dress. I was just pointing out that by banning the Burqa governments are dictating how people dress.
Mirza
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4/29/2010 2:54:56 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/29/2010 2:52:10 PM, theLwerd wrote:
There is nothing "unsafe" about slutty clothes, just as there is nothing inherently safe about the burqa.
If a man saw a woman with a burqa on one side of the road, and a woman with those jeans on another side of the road, then should he think of raping any of them, it would in most cases be the one with the jeans.

Furthermore, one can feel comfortable in modest clothing. I do.
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
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4/29/2010 9:46:19 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
It would be rather fun to force every politician, male and female, who put their legislative vote for this, to wear a burqa for the rest of their lives ^_^.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
InsertNameHere
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4/29/2010 11:22:29 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/29/2010 9:46:19 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
It would be rather fun to force every politician, male and female, who put their legislative vote for this, to wear a burqa for the rest of their lives ^_^.

Hahahahaha! I think an interesting form of protest against this law would be everybody who opposes it, muslim and non-muslim to go out wearing burqas.
JBlake
Posts: 4,634
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4/29/2010 11:29:38 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/29/2010 2:27:32 PM, Mirza wrote:
In fact, the more she covers herself, the safer she is to herself and the society. She does awake any sexual thoughts of people.

Knowledge is fading away. People are getting more and more ignorant.

I hate you...

I mean, I agree that it is absurd to ban the burqa or any article of clothing in a democratic society... but your statement above is just...
InsertNameHere
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4/29/2010 11:32:40 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/29/2010 11:29:38 PM, JBlake wrote:
At 4/29/2010 2:27:32 PM, Mirza wrote:
In fact, the more she covers herself, the safer she is to herself and the society. She does awake any sexual thoughts of people.

Knowledge is fading away. People are getting more and more ignorant.

I hate you...

I mean, I agree that it is absurd to ban the burqa or any article of clothing in a democratic society... but your statement above is just...

Hate is a bit of a strong word, wouldn't you think? You are entitled to your opinion, but still...
JBlake
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4/29/2010 11:34:41 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/29/2010 2:53:14 PM, theLwerd wrote:
At 4/29/2010 2:49:18 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:

Skinny jeans are fine. If people want to wear them, it's fine. It's not like they're sluttish.

Haha so now you think you should be able to dictate the way people dress? If a girl wants to dress like a slut, she should be able to - especially without interference from government.

Not only should she be able to, she should receive a government subsidy in order to do so! This behavior should be encouraged!
JBlake
Posts: 4,634
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4/29/2010 11:38:14 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/29/2010 11:32:40 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
Over exaggerated statement to illustrate my distaste.

You are right about the ban, but your comment quoted above is lacking in intelligence.

Hate is a bit of a strong word, wouldn't you think? You are entitled to your opinion, but still...

Translation above.
InsertNameHere
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4/29/2010 11:57:32 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/29/2010 11:38:14 PM, JBlake wrote:
At 4/29/2010 11:32:40 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
Over exaggerated statement to illustrate my distaste.

You are right about the ban, but your comment quoted above is lacking in intelligence.

Hate is a bit of a strong word, wouldn't you think? You are entitled to your opinion, but still...

Translation above.

Banning any kind of clothing is bad.
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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4/30/2010 12:56:36 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/29/2010 2:27:32 PM, Mirza wrote:

As a Muslim, fair-minded and civilized person, and most importantly a human being, I think that this is uncalled for, especially in a society where you are supposed to be doing whatever you wish to your own body.

Though I have deleted the bulk of the post you have made a number of good points, I am not going to address them one by one because if we actually honestly look at the anti-Muslim movement, at what they are probably not saying, then most of these points become irrelevant. I say that because the burkha ban is not about modesty, it is not because Islamic women may be forced to wear it. The reason why the swiss banned minarets, why beligium is banning the burqa and why France wants to is simply because the people proposing such laws want to at best discourage Islamic immigration and the practice of Islamic religion and at 'worst' simply want to ban Islam from their country. These laws are intended as the thin end of the wedge.

One of the main reasons, (or at least the reason that gains my sympathy) why there are these movements to restrict Islam in this way is because Islam is an antithical socio-political-cultural movement, slowly colonising liberal countries and converting them to Islamic ones.

I personally believe that the majority of western Muslim women who wear the burqa do so out of choice (at least the younger generation), it is irrelevant to me that it is modest garb, I do not believe that every Muslim is a terrorist, I am more than happy to accept that the burqa wearing Muslim women comprise a particularly lawful and unproblematic demographic.

But I don't want my country or other liberal democracies to be colonised by Islam. It is a direct challenge to my values and principles, by the same token you don't want the Jews to re-take Medina.

However the issue is that you, and other Muslims do not respect my values, nor should you... you have your own contradictory divinely ordained values. You don't care that I don't want my country colonised, so it is up liberals to take such actions to conserve liberalism. Yes I know... ooh thats hypcritical etc etc.

I've not slept, hopefully I have expressed my point!
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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4/30/2010 12:57:47 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/29/2010 2:33:20 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
If modest clothing is being banned then maybe we should ban sluttish clothes as well...

No...
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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4/30/2010 1:00:07 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/29/2010 2:49:18 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 4/29/2010 2:47:22 PM, Reasoning wrote:
At 4/29/2010 2:33:20 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
If modest clothing is being banned then maybe we should ban sluttish clothes as well...

As long as you don't ban "skinny jeans".

Skinny jeans are fine. If people want to wear them, it's fine. It's not like they're sluttish.

Skinny jeans are intended to show a womans curves and to therefore make her attractive, so aren't they anti-Islamic?
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
InsertNameHere
Posts: 15,699
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4/30/2010 1:02:17 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/30/2010 12:56:36 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 4/29/2010 2:27:32 PM, Mirza wrote:

As a Muslim, fair-minded and civilized person, and most importantly a human being, I think that this is uncalled for, especially in a society where you are supposed to be doing whatever you wish to your own body.

Though I have deleted the bulk of the post you have made a number of good points, I am not going to address them one by one because if we actually honestly look at the anti-Muslim movement, at what they are probably not saying, then most of these points become irrelevant. I say that because the burkha ban is not about modesty, it is not because Islamic women may be forced to wear it. The reason why the swiss banned minarets, why beligium is banning the burqa and why France wants to is simply because the people proposing such laws want to at best discourage Islamic immigration and the practice of Islamic religion and at 'worst' simply want to ban Islam from their country. These laws are intended as the thin end of the wedge.

One of the main reasons, (or at least the reason that gains my sympathy) why there are these movements to restrict Islam in this way is because Islam is an antithical socio-political-cultural movement, slowly colonising liberal countries and converting them to Islamic ones.

I personally believe that the majority of western Muslim women who wear the burqa do so out of choice (at least the younger generation), it is irrelevant to me that it is modest garb, I do not believe that every Muslim is a terrorist, I am more than happy to accept that the burqa wearing Muslim women comprise a particularly lawful and unproblematic demographic.

But I don't want my country or other liberal democracies to be colonised by Islam. It is a direct challenge to my values and principles, by the same token you don't want the Jews to re-take Medina.

However the issue is that you, and other Muslims do not respect my values, nor should you... you have your own contradictory divinely ordained values. You don't care that I don't want my country colonised, so it is up liberals to take such actions to conserve liberalism. Yes I know... ooh thats hypcritical etc etc.

I've not slept, hopefully I have expressed my point!

Ok, here's another scenario: what if everybody in your country converted to Islam and wanted to implement Islamic values?
InsertNameHere
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4/30/2010 1:02:58 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/30/2010 1:00:07 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 4/29/2010 2:49:18 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 4/29/2010 2:47:22 PM, Reasoning wrote:
At 4/29/2010 2:33:20 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
If modest clothing is being banned then maybe we should ban sluttish clothes as well...

As long as you don't ban "skinny jeans".

Skinny jeans are fine. If people want to wear them, it's fine. It's not like they're sluttish.

Skinny jeans are intended to show a womans curves and to therefore make her attractive, so aren't they anti-Islamic?

Yea, I have a pair although I don't really wear them anymore.
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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4/30/2010 1:09:42 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/30/2010 1:02:17 AM, InsertNameHere wrote:


Ok, here's another scenario: what if everybody in your country converted to Islam and wanted to implement Islamic values?

Well according to some I'd be allowed to live as a protected minority, but I am cynical... so I'd probably leave. But I still have a certain loyalty to my country so I'd feel a bit bitter. It's that sort of situation that I'd prefer to avoid.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
InsertNameHere
Posts: 15,699
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4/30/2010 1:11:05 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/30/2010 1:09:42 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 4/30/2010 1:02:17 AM, InsertNameHere wrote:


Ok, here's another scenario: what if everybody in your country converted to Islam and wanted to implement Islamic values?

Well according to some I'd be allowed to live as a protected minority, but I am cynical... so I'd probably leave. But I still have a certain loyalty to my country so I'd feel a bit bitter. It's that sort of situation that I'd prefer to avoid.

Under my ideal system of Sharia law you would be a protected minority.
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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4/30/2010 1:11:09 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/30/2010 1:02:58 AM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 4/30/2010 1:00:07 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 4/29/2010 2:49:18 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 4/29/2010 2:47:22 PM, Reasoning wrote:
At 4/29/2010 2:33:20 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
If modest clothing is being banned then maybe we should ban sluttish clothes as well...

As long as you don't ban "skinny jeans".

Skinny jeans are fine. If people want to wear them, it's fine. It's not like they're sluttish.

Skinny jeans are intended to show a womans curves and to therefore make her attractive, so aren't they anti-Islamic?

Yea, I have a pair although I don't really wear them anymore.

I don't consider them slutty, just trying to be annoying! :-)
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
InsertNameHere
Posts: 15,699
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4/30/2010 1:13:29 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/30/2010 1:11:09 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 4/30/2010 1:02:58 AM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 4/30/2010 1:00:07 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 4/29/2010 2:49:18 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 4/29/2010 2:47:22 PM, Reasoning wrote:
At 4/29/2010 2:33:20 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
If modest clothing is being banned then maybe we should ban sluttish clothes as well...

As long as you don't ban "skinny jeans".

Skinny jeans are fine. If people want to wear them, it's fine. It's not like they're sluttish.

Skinny jeans are intended to show a womans curves and to therefore make her attractive, so aren't they anti-Islamic?

Yea, I have a pair although I don't really wear them anymore.

I don't consider them slutty, just trying to be annoying! :-)

I don't consider them slutty either, just unislamic.
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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4/30/2010 1:13:32 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/30/2010 1:11:05 AM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 4/30/2010 1:09:42 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 4/30/2010 1:02:17 AM, InsertNameHere wrote:


Ok, here's another scenario: what if everybody in your country converted to Islam and wanted to implement Islamic values?

Well according to some I'd be allowed to live as a protected minority, but I am cynical... so I'd probably leave. But I still have a certain loyalty to my country so I'd feel a bit bitter. It's that sort of situation that I'd prefer to avoid.

Under my ideal system of Sharia law you would be a protected minority.

You admit that is the ideal, the more likely scenarios are a bit disturbing.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
InsertNameHere
Posts: 15,699
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4/30/2010 1:15:21 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/30/2010 1:13:32 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 4/30/2010 1:11:05 AM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 4/30/2010 1:09:42 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 4/30/2010 1:02:17 AM, InsertNameHere wrote:


Ok, here's another scenario: what if everybody in your country converted to Islam and wanted to implement Islamic values?

Well according to some I'd be allowed to live as a protected minority, but I am cynical... so I'd probably leave. But I still have a certain loyalty to my country so I'd feel a bit bitter. It's that sort of situation that I'd prefer to avoid.

Under my ideal system of Sharia law you would be a protected minority.

You admit that is the ideal, the more likely scenarios are a bit disturbing.

Unfortunately that is the case in places such as Iran, but nowhere follows Sharia law 100% how it was intended.