Total Posts:9|Showing Posts:1-9
Jump to topic:

Labour - Keynesianism - Socialism

Zetsubou
Posts: 4,933
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/2/2010 12:23:06 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
In my new look into the loony world Economics, I've been looking into Labour - Conservative Economic History, and the development of Modern Economics in the modern world especially in moderate "Socialism" or Neo-Socialism.

I questions I want asked is:

-)What is the fallacy in Socialism, I want to see if the arguments that don't consist of rights(Objectivism) authoritarianism(Liberalism) or human nature(What they preach in schools - Lenin the big bad wolf).

-)What is so god about Keynesian economics? gawd!

-)The future for the age of Capitalism under the US superpower. Will Capitalism fall with the USA? (apparently inevitable) Can Capitalism adapt without America?
'sup DDO -- july 2013
wjmelements
Posts: 8,206
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/2/2010 9:47:52 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/2/2010 12:23:06 AM, Zetsubou wrote:
-)What is the fallacy in Socialism, I want to see if the arguments that don't consist of rights(Objectivism) authoritarianism(Liberalism) or human nature(What they preach in schools - Lenin the big bad wolf).

It essentially comes down to the worker's human nature - the individual follows his own self-interest. If there is no incentive to work because wages are not determined by one's work ethic, then work ethic will decline (see collectivist farms in early Soviet Russia and in China). If capital is collectively owned, then there is no incentive to maintain this capital (see the ocean fishing system). Collectivism everywhere is less efficient and less preferable to Individualism.

-)What is so god about Keynesian economics? gawd!

On fiscal policy, it does not understand that there is a "multiplier" on the money we borrow or the interest we must pay on it.
On monetary policy, it does not understand that government tampering with currency causes macroeconomic booms and busts.

-)The future for the age of Capitalism under the US superpower. Will Capitalism fall with the USA? (apparently inevitable) Can Capitalism adapt without America?

1) The US is failing with collectivism (insurance, social programs, social securities, etc)
2) The world will likely blame this fail on laissez-faire nonetheless.
3) Government policies adapt and capitalism reacts. Capitalism as an economic system will not adapt. Schools of thought about capitalism will disappear (probably the Keynesian School will fly away) and be replaced (probably by the more moderate Chicago School, unfortunately, if not the Marxian; the Austrian School is usually ignored by the mainstream).
in the blink of an eye you finally see the light
Rezzealaux
Posts: 2,251
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/2/2010 11:51:58 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/2/2010 12:23:06 AM, Zetsubou wrote:
Can Capitalism adapt without America?

It's called the ~black market~.
: If you weren't new here, you'd know not to feed me such attention. This is like an orgasm in my brain right now. *hehe, my name is in a title, hehe* (http://www.debate.org...)

Just in case I get into some BS with FREEDO again about how he's NOT a narcissist.

"The law is there to destroy evil under the constitutional government."
So... what's there to destroy evil inside of and above the constitutional government?
Rezzealaux
Posts: 2,251
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/2/2010 11:56:16 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/2/2010 11:51:58 AM, Rezzealaux wrote:
At 5/2/2010 12:23:06 AM, Zetsubou wrote:
Can Capitalism adapt without America?

It's called the ~black market~.

I remember reading this once, though I can't remember from where exactly, that in Russia, sometime after the Commies got into pow- or perhaps it was England and things were getting overregulated? Whatever, it's the incentive structure that matters. So things were getting really heavily regulated in a country right, and pretty much everyone was turning to the black market just for daily sustenance, even some government officials. But the lines and fines marched on, and guess what happened? Everyone used the black market, and it became *the* market. Nobody gave a sh!t about the laws when it came to trading, buying, and selling. ANARCHY IN THE STREETS! I think they eventually got rid of the old laws when they wanted to start regulating the market again.

But that's probably what will happen.
: If you weren't new here, you'd know not to feed me such attention. This is like an orgasm in my brain right now. *hehe, my name is in a title, hehe* (http://www.debate.org...)

Just in case I get into some BS with FREEDO again about how he's NOT a narcissist.

"The law is there to destroy evil under the constitutional government."
So... what's there to destroy evil inside of and above the constitutional government?
Volkov
Posts: 9,765
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/2/2010 12:16:43 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/2/2010 11:56:16 AM, Rezzealaux wrote:
I remember reading this once, though I can't remember from where exactly, that in Russia, sometime after the Commies got into pow- or perhaps it was England and things were getting overregulated? Whatever, it's the incentive structure that matters. So things were getting really heavily regulated in a country right, and pretty much everyone was turning to the black market just for daily sustenance, even some government officials. But the lines and fines marched on, and guess what happened? Everyone used the black market, and it became *the* market. Nobody gave a sh!t about the laws when it came to trading, buying, and selling. ANARCHY IN THE STREETS! I think they eventually got rid of the old laws when they wanted to start regulating the market again.

But that's probably what will happen.

I've never, ever heard of this happening in Russia. The UK I'm less sure about. But it's never happened in Russia as far as I know. It'd be pretty much impossible for it to.
Xer
Posts: 7,776
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/2/2010 12:26:04 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/2/2010 12:16:43 PM, Volkov wrote:
At 5/2/2010 11:56:16 AM, Rezzealaux wrote:
I remember reading this once, though I can't remember from where exactly, that in Russia, sometime after the Commies got into pow- or perhaps it was England and things were getting overregulated? Whatever, it's the incentive structure that matters. So things were getting really heavily regulated in a country right, and pretty much everyone was turning to the black market just for daily sustenance, even some government officials. But the lines and fines marched on, and guess what happened? Everyone used the black market, and it became *the* market. Nobody gave a sh!t about the laws when it came to trading, buying, and selling. ANARCHY IN THE STREETS! I think they eventually got rid of the old laws when they wanted to start regulating the market again.

But that's probably what will happen.

I've never, ever heard of this happening in Russia. The UK I'm less sure about. But it's never happened in Russia as far as I know. It'd be pretty much impossible for it to.

It happened in Russia, I'm sure. The article below proves it. I read or heard of this somewhere else though, not sure if it was a book, article, or video.

http://econlog.econlib.org...

---

And yes, Keynesianism sucks.
Volkov
Posts: 9,765
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/2/2010 12:38:32 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/2/2010 12:26:04 PM, Nags wrote:
It happened in Russia, I'm sure. The article below proves it. I read or heard of this somewhere else though, not sure if it was a book, article, or video.

http://econlog.econlib.org...

That article doesn't prove it - it just states it.
Xer
Posts: 7,776
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/2/2010 12:40:22 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/2/2010 12:38:32 PM, Volkov wrote:
That article doesn't prove it - it just states it.

Ok. I thought this was common knowledge. Russia's black market was practically bigger than its official economy.
http://www.cdi.org...
Volkov
Posts: 9,765
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/2/2010 12:48:31 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/2/2010 12:40:22 PM, Nags wrote:
Ok. I thought this was common knowledge. Russia's black market was practically bigger than its official economy.
http://www.cdi.org...

If anything these arguments just show that a lack of proper government checks and balances spurns on the creation of black markets, which is something I don't disagree with. Corrupt and inefficient governments breed things like this, especially in certain countries where demand is high but production and availability is low. That's a no brainer.

However, I don't think this is what Rezz was talking about. He said that right after the Communists took over this market started growing; well, I have some doubts about that. Russia and the former USSR for most of its life had strong production and a very tightly wound system of control over production, distribution and availability. When production failed, yes, it got loads worse. During the Civil War, when neither the official government, nor the soviets, could truly direct and push production, the only source of food came out of the village communes which more often than not would charge ridiculously high prices. In fact, half the loss of production came from communes withholding their product until the government paid more.