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Free Trade

mongoose
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5/2/2010 3:46:06 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Many are opposed to it, because it "destroys jobs" and "exploits children in other countries." This is rediculous. Most American businesses that hire people in foreign countries pay about two or three times as much as they would otherwise be able to find with other domesitc labor. They also tend to slowly add more jobs to their base in America.
It is odd when one's capacity for compassion is measured not in what he is willing to do by his own time, effort, and property, but what he will force others to do with their own property instead.
Volkov
Posts: 9,765
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5/2/2010 3:51:14 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Is that all?

There are also complaints about sending jobs overseas, ignoring human rights in favour of greedy capitalist fortunes, outsourcing dangerous jobs and products to people that are "worth less" than Westerners (I've heard that quite a few times in reference to asbestos production), etc.

It goes on for hours.
Reasoning
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5/2/2010 3:59:01 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/2/2010 3:46:06 PM, mongoose wrote:
This is rediculous.

You'd look more intelligent if you spelled "ridiculous" correctly.
"What we really ought to ask the liberal, before we even begin addressing his agenda, is this: In what kind of society would he be a conservative?" - Joseph Sobran
mongoose
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5/2/2010 4:03:14 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/2/2010 3:51:14 PM, Volkov wrote:
Is that all?

There are also complaints about sending jobs overseas, ignoring human rights in favour of greedy capitalist fortunes, outsourcing dangerous jobs and products to people that are "worth less" than Westerners (I've heard that quite a few times in reference to asbestos production), etc.

It goes on for hours.

The people aren't "worth less." They're just more willing to do that type of work. As long as the companies aren't forcing people to work there, all they're doing is providing more options for the poor people. The jobs sent overseas make goods cheaper and allows for Americans to do jobs we can do better. It's called comparative advantage.
It is odd when one's capacity for compassion is measured not in what he is willing to do by his own time, effort, and property, but what he will force others to do with their own property instead.
mongoose
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5/2/2010 4:04:08 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/2/2010 3:59:01 PM, Reasoning wrote:
At 5/2/2010 3:46:06 PM, mongoose wrote:
This is rediculous.

You'd look more intelligent if you spelled "ridiculous" correctly.

*facepalm*

Once I wrote an entire paragraph somewhere on grammar, and spelled it grammer every time. It was full of fail.
It is odd when one's capacity for compassion is measured not in what he is willing to do by his own time, effort, and property, but what he will force others to do with their own property instead.
Volkov
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5/2/2010 4:07:07 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/2/2010 4:03:14 PM, mongoose wrote:
The people aren't "worth less." They're just more willing to do that type of work. As long as the companies aren't forcing people to work there, all they're doing is providing more options for the poor people. The jobs sent overseas make goods cheaper and allows for Americans to do jobs we can do better. It's called comparative advantage.

Well, there's a difference between "willing to do the work" and really being ignorant of the danger presented, especially by something like asbestos production. The lack of proper safety training - not even the equipment but simply the training and knowledge of the danger that is present - is something that should be addressed in these sort of situations.

Otherwise, I agree.
mongeese
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5/2/2010 4:13:40 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/2/2010 3:51:14 PM, Volkov wrote:
Is that all?

There are also complaints about sending jobs overseas
Leaving Americans do do something else.
ignoring human rights in favour of greedy capitalist fortunes
Which human rights are ignored? Name them.
outsourcing dangerous jobs and products to people that are "worth less" than Westerners (I've heard that quite a few times in reference to asbestos production), etc.
As long as they're informed of the risk (they can probably smell the risk), no problems.
It goes on for hours.
Looked more like a minute.
Volkov
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5/2/2010 4:21:41 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/2/2010 4:13:40 PM, mongeese wrote:
Leaving Americans do do something else.

Like?

Which human rights are ignored? Name them.

I dunno, I'm not the one who says these things.

As long as they're informed of the risk (they can probably smell the risk), no problems.

That's my point.

Looked more like a minute.

You should try to talk to a New Democrat here. It'll go on for hours, I'm tellin' ya.
Reasoning
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5/2/2010 4:32:43 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/2/2010 4:21:41 PM, Volkov wrote:
At 5/2/2010 4:13:40 PM, mongeese wrote:
Leaving Americans do do something else.

Like?

If I knew that central planning would be great!
"What we really ought to ask the liberal, before we even begin addressing his agenda, is this: In what kind of society would he be a conservative?" - Joseph Sobran
Zetsubou
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5/2/2010 4:35:57 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
I'm starting off as a Moderate (non AnarchistRevolutionary) Socialist, via the Fabian Roots.

Have you guys ever tried to think that some people are ignorant of their chains to the Capitalist system. It's your right to be stupid and exploited, ever thought that capitalism crates a society where one is forced to work just for monetary gain. As much as try and leave it they can't. Capitalism creates a work ethic, a cycle of enslavement created by the correct fear of falling into a state of poverty unemployment, your labour gives more power to the maser and he traps more people into the cycle.

This power is rooted in the free market.

I'm expecting a fallacy but I want to know what it is directly from you.
'sup DDO -- july 2013
Ragnar_Rahl
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5/2/2010 4:39:43 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
The problem, Zetsubou, is that YOUR DESIRE for money is the root cause of it, so it can't be called "force" (which is external to you). If you'd rather go without money (and its natural consequences) you are free not to work. Had you been alive and happy before the evil capiltalists came along and injected you with an "addiction to money serum," they would be guilty of force-- but they have never done anything of the sort. Material desires are yours alone.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
mongoose
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5/2/2010 4:41:47 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/2/2010 4:35:57 PM, Zetsubou wrote:
I'm starting off as a Moderate (non AnarchistRevolutionary) Socialist, via the Fabian Roots.

Have you guys ever tried to think that some people are ignorant of their chains to the Capitalist system. It's your right to be stupid and exploited, ever thought that capitalism crates a society where one is forced to work just for monetary gain. As much as try and leave it they can't. Capitalism creates a work ethic, a cycle of enslavement created by the correct fear of falling into a state of poverty unemployment, your labour gives more power to the maser and he traps more people into the cycle.

This power is rooted in the free market.

I'm expecting a fallacy but I want to know what it is directly from you.

Oh noez! A work ethic! How terrible! Would you rather people felt little or no incentive to work, and just took? People need motivation to work, and this is properly given through capitalism. Socialism provides no motivation. No matter how little you do, you are taken care of. If you work hard, you earn more and can move up in life. If these people in poor countires weren't "exploited" by these capitalist firms, then they'd be doing worse labor in worse conditions for little pay. Laws agianst child labor forced many children into prostitution. Is that what you want?
It is odd when one's capacity for compassion is measured not in what he is willing to do by his own time, effort, and property, but what he will force others to do with their own property instead.
Reasoning
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5/2/2010 4:42:01 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/2/2010 4:35:57 PM, Zetsubou wrote:
Have you guys ever tried to think that some people are ignorant of their chains to the Capitalist system.

Most are. It would be hard to maintain were this not the case.

It's your right to be stupid and exploited,

You have a right to be stupid. Exploitation is a hard word to define to have it mean anything, however.

ever thought that capitalism crates a society where one is forced to work just for monetary gain.

Well, it is the condition of nature that "in the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread". Of course, in capitalism the working class need to work more so that their surplus value can be used to feed the parasitic capitalist class.

This power is rooted in the free market.

This is a great and dangerous untruth.
"What we really ought to ask the liberal, before we even begin addressing his agenda, is this: In what kind of society would he be a conservative?" - Joseph Sobran
mongeese
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5/2/2010 4:45:04 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/2/2010 4:42:01 PM, Reasoning wrote:
Of course, in capitalism the working class need to work more so that their surplus value can be used to feed the parasitic capitalist class.

And if the "parasitic capitalist class" didn't hire these people, they wouldn't have the equipment and facilities to do such work efficiently in the first place. Try out-competing a loom with a needle and thread. Or a computer and printer with a pen and paper.
mongoose
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5/2/2010 4:46:20 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Does anybody else ever watch "Stossel?"
It is odd when one's capacity for compassion is measured not in what he is willing to do by his own time, effort, and property, but what he will force others to do with their own property instead.
Zetsubou
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5/2/2010 4:48:16 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/2/2010 4:39:43 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
The problem, Zetsubou, is that YOUR DESIRE for money is the root cause of it, so it can't be called "force" (which is external to you). If you'd rather go without money (and its natural consequences) you are free not to work. Had you been alive and happy before the evil capiltalists came along and injected you with an "addiction to money serum," they would be guilty of force-- but they have never done anything of the sort. Material desires are yours alone.

All humans have always had Material desires. Before the need for advanced economics people wouldn't need this reason to make webs of trade. The humanity of Material desires is leads us to wants. Capitalism is the base off peoples "whats". Not always but almost always leading into the exploitation and abuse of these human "whats".
'sup DDO -- july 2013
mongoose
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5/2/2010 4:52:27 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/2/2010 4:48:16 PM, Zetsubou wrote:
At 5/2/2010 4:39:43 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
The problem, Zetsubou, is that YOUR DESIRE for money is the root cause of it, so it can't be called "force" (which is external to you). If you'd rather go without money (and its natural consequences) you are free not to work. Had you been alive and happy before the evil capiltalists came along and injected you with an "addiction to money serum," they would be guilty of force-- but they have never done anything of the sort. Material desires are yours alone.

All humans have always had Material desires. Before the need for advanced economics people wouldn't need this reason to make webs of trade. The humanity of Material desires is leads us to wants. Capitalism is the base off peoples "whats". Not always but almost always leading into the exploitation and abuse of these human "whats".

What are these "whats" you speak of?
It is odd when one's capacity for compassion is measured not in what he is willing to do by his own time, effort, and property, but what he will force others to do with their own property instead.
Zetsubou
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5/2/2010 4:54:37 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/2/2010 4:48:16 PM, Zetsubou wrote:
At 5/2/2010 4:39:43 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
The problem, Zetsubou, is that YOUR DESIRE for money is the root cause of it, so it can't be called "force" (which is external to you). If you'd rather go without money (and its natural consequences) you are free not to work. Had you been alive and happy before the evil capiltalists came along and injected you with an "addiction to money serum," they would be guilty of force-- but they have never done anything of the sort. Material desires are yours alone.

All humans have always had Material desires. Before the need for advanced economics people didn't need this reason to make webs of trade. The humanity of Material desires is what leads us to "wants". Capitalism is the base off peoples "whats". Not always but almost always leading into the exploitation and abuse of these human "whats".
Grammar Edits.

If you want something the owner will make it harder and harder to reach, a goal that is only achievable should the Capital class deem it so, man in naturally individualistic capitalism is manipulation of another to achieve your goal.
'sup DDO -- july 2013
mongeese
Posts: 5,387
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5/2/2010 5:07:31 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/2/2010 4:48:16 PM, Zetsubou wrote:
At 5/2/2010 4:39:43 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
The problem, Zetsubou, is that YOUR DESIRE for money is the root cause of it, so it can't be called "force" (which is external to you). If you'd rather go without money (and its natural consequences) you are free not to work. Had you been alive and happy before the evil capiltalists came along and injected you with an "addiction to money serum," they would be guilty of force-- but they have never done anything of the sort. Material desires are yours alone.

All humans have always had Material desires. Before the need for advanced economics people wouldn't need this reason to make webs of trade.

Actually, bartering through webs of trade is capitalism.
Xer
Posts: 7,776
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5/2/2010 5:24:59 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/2/2010 5:06:32 PM, mongeese wrote:
At 5/2/2010 4:46:20 PM, mongoose wrote:
Does anybody else ever watch "Stossel?"

*raises hand*

*ooh oooh me too*
Reasoning
Posts: 4,456
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5/2/2010 5:30:05 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/2/2010 5:07:31 PM, mongeese wrote:
Actually, bartering through webs of trade is capitalism.

It isn't capitalism without capitalists.
"What we really ought to ask the liberal, before we even begin addressing his agenda, is this: In what kind of society would he be a conservative?" - Joseph Sobran
Reasoning
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5/2/2010 5:31:14 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/2/2010 4:45:04 PM, mongeese wrote:
And if the "parasitic capitalist class" didn't hire these people, they wouldn't have the equipment and facilities to do such work efficiently in the first place. Try out-competing a loom with a needle and thread. Or a computer and printer with a pen and paper.

If the capitalists hadn't appropriated the means of production to themselves then the working man wouldn't need to beg them for a job.
"What we really ought to ask the liberal, before we even begin addressing his agenda, is this: In what kind of society would he be a conservative?" - Joseph Sobran
mongeese
Posts: 5,387
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5/2/2010 5:51:29 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/2/2010 5:31:14 PM, Reasoning wrote:
At 5/2/2010 4:45:04 PM, mongeese wrote:
And if the "parasitic capitalist class" didn't hire these people, they wouldn't have the equipment and facilities to do such work efficiently in the first place. Try out-competing a loom with a needle and thread. Or a computer and printer with a pen and paper.

If the capitalists hadn't appropriated the means of production to themselves

They don't just "appropriate" it. They seek it out, buy it, and then set up a factory. This has proven over history to be more efficient than the workers trying to seek out new technologies themselves.

then the working man wouldn't need to beg them for a job.

The working man would instead continue to pick his cotton by hand, instead of cleaning it with a cotton gin.

Tell me, in your idealistic society, how would the cotton gin be invented, how would Microsoft be invented, and how would space travel eventually be invented?
mongeese
Posts: 5,387
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5/2/2010 5:52:25 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/2/2010 5:30:05 PM, Reasoning wrote:
At 5/2/2010 5:07:31 PM, mongeese wrote:
Actually, bartering through webs of trade is capitalism.

It isn't capitalism without capitalists.

But everybody is a capitalist, in that everybody owns their own private property, in the bartering system.
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
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5/2/2010 6:56:21 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/2/2010 4:48:16 PM, Zetsubou wrote:
At 5/2/2010 4:39:43 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
The problem, Zetsubou, is that YOUR DESIRE for money is the root cause of it, so it can't be called "force" (which is external to you). If you'd rather go without money (and its natural consequences) you are free not to work. Had you been alive and happy before the evil capiltalists came along and injected you with an "addiction to money serum," they would be guilty of force-- but they have never done anything of the sort. Material desires are yours alone.

All humans have always had Material desires. Before the need for advanced economics people wouldn't need this reason to make webs of trade.
No, it's not a lack of need, it's a lack of ABILITY.

The humanity of Material desires is leads us to wants. Capitalism is the base off peoples "whats".
So in other words you're praising capitalism if you mean wants.

Not always but almost always leading into the exploitation and abuse of these human "whats".
The point of economics is to exploit things to advantage. The alternative is to lie down and die.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
Zetsubou
Posts: 4,933
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5/3/2010 1:51:10 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/2/2010 6:56:21 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
At 5/2/2010 4:48:16 PM, Zetsubou wrote:
At 5/2/2010 4:39:43 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
The problem, Zetsubou, is that YOUR DESIRE for money is the root cause of it, so it can't be called "force" (which is external to you). If you'd rather go without money (and its natural consequences) you are free not to work. Had you been alive and happy before the evil capiltalists came along and injected you with an "addiction to money serum," they would be guilty of force-- but they have never done anything of the sort. Material desires are yours alone.

All humans have always had Material desires. Before the need for advanced economics people wouldn't need this reason to make webs of trade.
No, it's not a lack of need, it's a lack of ABILITY.
Accepted. The ability to rob other people in the best way possible.

The humanity of Material desires is leads us to wants. Capitalism is the base off peoples "whats".
So in other words you're praising capitalism if you mean wants.
*What the fk was I saying...*


Not always but almost always leading into the exploitation and abuse of these human "whats".
The point of economics is to exploit things to advantage. The alternative is to lie down and die.
So the bourgeoisie are allowed to "exploit people to advantage".

Sorry, but I can't enslave or manipulate my fellow man without a second thought.
'sup DDO -- july 2013
mongoose
Posts: 3,500
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5/3/2010 1:56:30 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/3/2010 1:51:10 PM, Zetsubou wrote:
At 5/2/2010 6:56:21 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
At 5/2/2010 4:48:16 PM, Zetsubou wrote:
At 5/2/2010 4:39:43 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
The problem, Zetsubou, is that YOUR DESIRE for money is the root cause of it, so it can't be called "force" (which is external to you). If you'd rather go without money (and its natural consequences) you are free not to work. Had you been alive and happy before the evil capiltalists came along and injected you with an "addiction to money serum," they would be guilty of force-- but they have never done anything of the sort. Material desires are yours alone.

All humans have always had Material desires. Before the need for advanced economics people wouldn't need this reason to make webs of trade.
No, it's not a lack of need, it's a lack of ABILITY.
Accepted. The ability to rob other people in the best way possible.

The humanity of Material desires is leads us to wants. Capitalism is the base off peoples "whats".
So in other words you're praising capitalism if you mean wants.
*What the fk was I saying...*


Not always but almost always leading into the exploitation and abuse of these human "whats".
The point of economics is to exploit things to advantage. The alternative is to lie down and die.
So the bourgeoisie are allowed to "exploit people to advantage".

Sorry, but I can't enslave or manipulate my fellow man without a second thought.

So you're never going to offer people jobs? Because people tend to like being offered jobs.
It is odd when one's capacity for compassion is measured not in what he is willing to do by his own time, effort, and property, but what he will force others to do with their own property instead.
Zetsubou
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5/3/2010 1:59:41 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/3/2010 1:56:30 PM, mongoose wrote:
At 5/3/2010 1:51:10 PM, Zetsubou wrote:
At 5/2/2010 6:56:21 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
At 5/2/2010 4:48:16 PM, Zetsubou wrote:
At 5/2/2010 4:39:43 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
The problem, Zetsubou, is that YOUR DESIRE for money is the root cause of it, so it can't be called "force" (which is external to you). If you'd rather go without money (and its natural consequences) you are free not to work. Had you been alive and happy before the evil capiltalists came along and injected you with an "addiction to money serum," they would be guilty of force-- but they have never done anything of the sort. Material desires are yours alone.

All humans have always had Material desires. Before the need for advanced economics people wouldn't need this reason to make webs of trade.
No, it's not a lack of need, it's a lack of ABILITY.
Accepted. The ability to rob other people in the best way possible.

The humanity of Material desires is leads us to wants. Capitalism is the base off peoples "whats".
So in other words you're praising capitalism if you mean wants.
*What the fk was I saying...*


Not always but almost always leading into the exploitation and abuse of these human "whats".
The point of economics is to exploit things to advantage. The alternative is to lie down and die.
So the bourgeoisie are allowed to "exploit people to advantage".

Sorry, but I can't enslave or manipulate my fellow man without a second thought.

So you're never going to offer people jobs? Because people tend to like being offered jobs.

You're going to have to make that connection clearer. I don't see how "enslaving or manipulating" my fellow man = offering people jobs.
'sup DDO -- july 2013