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My proposal for solving Illegal Immigration

Vox_Veritas
Posts: 7,074
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11/21/2014 4:02:39 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Look here:
http://www.ask.com...
As you can see, the United States provides money to Mexico. But how much of that money is assigned to Mexican immigration services? Not much.
I propose that our Government provide Mexico the sufficient amount money needed to run a proper immigration service, and the Mexican Government will do an overhaul of their immigration system to make it more efficient. If Mexico refuses this proposal, all aid to their government from the US Government will cease.
They don't lose anything from this deal, as they're using extra money that we're giving them to do this.
And of course, we would also monitor the money that we gave them. If the money is being used in a way that we don't like, the U.S. Government will confront the Mexican Government about it.

Of course, we would also spend money to overhaul our own immigration system to improve it.

After both sides of the immigration process have become decently efficient, we will build the Border Fence. All illegal immigrants inside the United States at this time will be given a sufficiently long amnesty period to complete their citizenship. All cases will be examined, and those with bad criminal records will be deported.
At the end of the amnesty period, those illegals who haven't completed their citizenship will be deported.

Through this process, immigration will be made easy and accessible to those who desire it (who aren't felons). And, the question of the illegals who are already here will be answered.

That is my proposal.
Call me Vox, the Resident Contrarian of debate.org.

The DDO Blog:
https://debatedotorg.wordpress.com...

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Khaos_Mage
Posts: 23,214
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11/21/2014 4:11:20 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
That may work, if you got the government out of the pockets (or is it cross-hairs) of the cartels and gangs.
Giving money to a corrupted government isn't going to fix anything.
My work here is, finally, done.
Vox_Veritas
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11/21/2014 4:16:41 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/21/2014 4:11:20 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
That may work, if you got the government out of the pockets (or is it cross-hairs) of the cartels and gangs.
Giving money to a corrupted government isn't going to fix anything.

Perhaps military intervention against the gangs first then?
Call me Vox, the Resident Contrarian of debate.org.

The DDO Blog:
https://debatedotorg.wordpress.com...

#drinkthecoffeenotthekoolaid
Khaos_Mage
Posts: 23,214
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11/21/2014 4:28:26 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/21/2014 4:16:41 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 11/21/2014 4:11:20 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
That may work, if you got the government out of the pockets (or is it cross-hairs) of the cartels and gangs.
Giving money to a corrupted government isn't going to fix anything.

Perhaps military intervention against the gangs first then?

Outside military force to attack gangs.....
not good for diplomacy, and if it happens again?
My work here is, finally, done.
ford_prefect
Posts: 4,139
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11/21/2014 7:12:07 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Immigration from Mexico will not stop as long as the country is so much poorer than the US.

Mexico will never stop being poor as long as the cartels are corrupting the governments.

The cartels will never stop corrupting the Mexican government as long as the US provides a strong demand for illegal drugs and a strong supply of military grade weaponry.

So it seems the American government can do two very easy things if it wants to drastically slow immigration from Mexico. Reduce our citizens demand for illegal drugs and reduce our supply of military grade weapons.

The question I would ask is, why do we want to reduce immigration? If you screen for drugs and weapons, and let anyone in who doesn't have those things, they are just more tax payers and workers/consumers to grow our economy.
dylancatlow
Posts: 12,245
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11/21/2014 7:59:38 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/21/2014 7:12:07 PM, ford_prefect wrote:

The question I would ask is, why do we want to reduce immigration? If you screen for drugs and weapons, and let anyone in who doesn't have those things, they are just more tax payers and workers/consumers to grow our economy.

Yes, because the average American pays more in taxes than s/he takes out. You do realize that our government spends like 1.5x as much money as it collects in taxes, right? More people does not mean a better economy. Just ask China (bad example, but still).
ford_prefect
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11/21/2014 8:16:35 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/21/2014 7:59:38 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 11/21/2014 7:12:07 PM, ford_prefect wrote:

The question I would ask is, why do we want to reduce immigration? If you screen for drugs and weapons, and let anyone in who doesn't have those things, they are just more tax payers and workers/consumers to grow our economy.

Yes, because the average American pays more in taxes than s/he takes out. You do realize that our government spends like 1.5x as much money as it collects in taxes, right? More people does not mean a better economy. Just ask China (bad example, but still).

The fact that the government spends more than it collects in taxes doesn't mean adding tax paying workers will not help. For example, recently the military operations in the middle east contributed heavily to increasing our governments budget, but this cost was not dependent on the size of our population. Also, tax reform is always a possibility.

The reason we need more taxpayers right now is because of demographics. Baby boomers are retiring in mass numbers. Systems like Medicare and social security are going to have to be adjusted by increasing tax rates and lowering benefits. It would be nice if we could offset a lot of this by adding more workers to the tax base
dylancatlow
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11/21/2014 8:25:59 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/21/2014 8:16:35 PM, ford_prefect wrote:
At 11/21/2014 7:59:38 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 11/21/2014 7:12:07 PM, ford_prefect wrote:

The question I would ask is, why do we want to reduce immigration? If you screen for drugs and weapons, and let anyone in who doesn't have those things, they are just more tax payers and workers/consumers to grow our economy.

Yes, because the average American pays more in taxes than s/he takes out. You do realize that our government spends like 1.5x as much money as it collects in taxes, right? More people does not mean a better economy. Just ask China (bad example, but still).

The fact that the government spends more than it collects in taxes doesn't mean adding tax paying workers will not help. For example, recently the military operations in the middle east contributed heavily to increasing our governments budget, but this cost was not dependent on the size of our population. Also, tax reform is always a possibility.

The reason we need more taxpayers right now is because of demographics. Baby boomers are retiring in mass numbers. Systems like Medicare and social security are going to have to be adjusted by increasing tax rates and lowering benefits. It would be nice if we could offset a lot of this by adding more workers to the tax base

The idea that letting millions of unskilled/uneducated migrants into our country would be a net economic benefit is preposterous. I wouldn't be surprised if they took out four times what they paid in taxes.
ford_prefect
Posts: 4,139
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11/21/2014 8:35:50 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/21/2014 8:25:59 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 11/21/2014 8:16:35 PM, ford_prefect wrote:
At 11/21/2014 7:59:38 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 11/21/2014 7:12:07 PM, ford_prefect wrote:

The question I would ask is, why do we want to reduce immigration? If you screen for drugs and weapons, and let anyone in who doesn't have those things, they are just more tax payers and workers/consumers to grow our economy.

Yes, because the average American pays more in taxes than s/he takes out. You do realize that our government spends like 1.5x as much money as it collects in taxes, right? More people does not mean a better economy. Just ask China (bad example, but still).

The fact that the government spends more than it collects in taxes doesn't mean adding tax paying workers will not help. For example, recently the military operations in the middle east contributed heavily to increasing our governments budget, but this cost was not dependent on the size of our population. Also, tax reform is always a possibility.

The reason we need more taxpayers right now is because of demographics. Baby boomers are retiring in mass numbers. Systems like Medicare and social security are going to have to be adjusted by increasing tax rates and lowering benefits. It would be nice if we could offset a lot of this by adding more workers to the tax base

The idea that letting millions of unskilled/uneducated migrants into our country would be a net economic benefit is preposterous. I wouldn't be surprised if they took out four times what they paid in taxes.

Studies have shown that in recent years, immigration has been a net benefit to the US economy. They have also estimated that undocumented immigrants as a whole are net contributors to the federal budget. Sorry to break it to you but you are wrong.
EndarkenedRationalist
Posts: 14,201
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11/21/2014 8:43:11 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Actually, the fastest way you could solve illegal immigration is by having the US go into a depression. Immigration did slack off after 2008.
dylancatlow
Posts: 12,245
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11/21/2014 8:43:27 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/21/2014 8:35:50 PM, ford_prefect wrote:
At 11/21/2014 8:25:59 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 11/21/2014 8:16:35 PM, ford_prefect wrote:
At 11/21/2014 7:59:38 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 11/21/2014 7:12:07 PM, ford_prefect wrote:

The question I would ask is, why do we want to reduce immigration? If you screen for drugs and weapons, and let anyone in who doesn't have those things, they are just more tax payers and workers/consumers to grow our economy.

Yes, because the average American pays more in taxes than s/he takes out. You do realize that our government spends like 1.5x as much money as it collects in taxes, right? More people does not mean a better economy. Just ask China (bad example, but still).

The fact that the government spends more than it collects in taxes doesn't mean adding tax paying workers will not help. For example, recently the military operations in the middle east contributed heavily to increasing our governments budget, but this cost was not dependent on the size of our population. Also, tax reform is always a possibility.

The reason we need more taxpayers right now is because of demographics. Baby boomers are retiring in mass numbers. Systems like Medicare and social security are going to have to be adjusted by increasing tax rates and lowering benefits. It would be nice if we could offset a lot of this by adding more workers to the tax base

The idea that letting millions of unskilled/uneducated migrants into our country would be a net economic benefit is preposterous. I wouldn't be surprised if they took out four times what they paid in taxes.

Studies have shown that in recent years, immigration has been a net benefit to the US economy. They have also estimated that undocumented immigrants as a whole are net contributors to the federal budget. Sorry to break it to you but you are wrong.

Studies are often wrong or misleading, and used to support preconceived opinions. Would you care to cite such a study?
dylancatlow
Posts: 12,245
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11/21/2014 8:50:34 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
It's funny that some people think the mere existence of a study which supports their stance qualifies as undeniable proof. A study is not magic. It's just someone's interpretation of data. You can find a study which concludes just about anything.
Dissonant_Harmony
Posts: 14
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11/21/2014 9:11:14 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
I propose that our Government provide Mexico the sufficient amount money needed to run a proper immigration service, and the Mexican Government will do an overhaul of their immigration system to make it more efficient. If Mexico refuses this proposal, all aid to their government from the US Government will cease.:

So you want to give Mexico money to help keep Mexicans in Mexico, even though they are incentivized to let them come across the border to not only be someone else's problem, but also to send back to Mexico U.S. dollars? I'm sure they'll totally honor that!

They don't lose anything from this deal, as they're using extra money that we're giving them to do this.:

You're right, they don't lose anything from that. The problem is, we do.

And of course, we would also monitor the money that we gave them. If the money is being used in a way that we don't like, the U.S. Government will confront the Mexican Government about it.:

And how would you go about monitoring that?

After both sides of the immigration process have become decently efficient, we will build the Border Fence.:

First of all, to build a "fence" that can't be undermined easily would require a construction project about as impressive as the Great Wall of China. We're talking billions upon billions of dollars. Secondly, you have to man the walls which will cost additional funding.

At the end of the amnesty period, those illegals who haven't completed their citizenship will be deported.:

You make it seem so easy to find them. The majority of illegal immigrants are people who overstay their visa's, which mean they are documented and still go undetected for many years.

That is my proposal.:

It's rather elementary and nothing that hasn't been proposed in vain before.
dylancatlow
Posts: 12,245
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11/21/2014 9:12:53 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/21/2014 8:35:50 PM, ford_prefect wrote:
At 11/21/2014 8:25:59 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 11/21/2014 8:16:35 PM, ford_prefect wrote:
At 11/21/2014 7:59:38 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 11/21/2014 7:12:07 PM, ford_prefect wrote:

The question I would ask is, why do we want to reduce immigration? If you screen for drugs and weapons, and let anyone in who doesn't have those things, they are just more tax payers and workers/consumers to grow our economy.

Yes, because the average American pays more in taxes than s/he takes out. You do realize that our government spends like 1.5x as much money as it collects in taxes, right? More people does not mean a better economy. Just ask China (bad example, but still).

The fact that the government spends more than it collects in taxes doesn't mean adding tax paying workers will not help. For example, recently the military operations in the middle east contributed heavily to increasing our governments budget, but this cost was not dependent on the size of our population. Also, tax reform is always a possibility.

The reason we need more taxpayers right now is because of demographics. Baby boomers are retiring in mass numbers. Systems like Medicare and social security are going to have to be adjusted by increasing tax rates and lowering benefits. It would be nice if we could offset a lot of this by adding more workers to the tax base

The idea that letting millions of unskilled/uneducated migrants into our country would be a net economic benefit is preposterous. I wouldn't be surprised if they took out four times what they paid in taxes.

Studies have shown that in recent years, immigration has been a net benefit to the US economy. They have also estimated that undocumented immigrants as a whole are net contributors to the federal budget. Sorry to break it to you but you are wrong.

Just for some perspective:

To begin with, half of Americans pay no federal income taxes.
More than 60 percent of immigrants are on welfare.
dylancatlow
Posts: 12,245
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11/21/2014 9:23:34 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
That's not to say I am against all immigration. Chinese and Indian immigrants, for example, are two of the highest earning groups in the whole country, and have very low crime rates. Hispanic immigrants are a different story.
dylancatlow
Posts: 12,245
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11/21/2014 9:33:19 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/21/2014 8:35:50 PM, ford_prefect wrote:
At 11/21/2014 8:25:59 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 11/21/2014 8:16:35 PM, ford_prefect wrote:
At 11/21/2014 7:59:38 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 11/21/2014 7:12:07 PM, ford_prefect wrote:

The question I would ask is, why do we want to reduce immigration? If you screen for drugs and weapons, and let anyone in who doesn't have those things, they are just more tax payers and workers/consumers to grow our economy.

Yes, because the average American pays more in taxes than s/he takes out. You do realize that our government spends like 1.5x as much money as it collects in taxes, right? More people does not mean a better economy. Just ask China (bad example, but still).

The fact that the government spends more than it collects in taxes doesn't mean adding tax paying workers will not help. For example, recently the military operations in the middle east contributed heavily to increasing our governments budget, but this cost was not dependent on the size of our population. Also, tax reform is always a possibility.

The reason we need more taxpayers right now is because of demographics. Baby boomers are retiring in mass numbers. Systems like Medicare and social security are going to have to be adjusted by increasing tax rates and lowering benefits. It would be nice if we could offset a lot of this by adding more workers to the tax base

The idea that letting millions of unskilled/uneducated migrants into our country would be a net economic benefit is preposterous. I wouldn't be surprised if they took out four times what they paid in taxes.

Studies have shown that in recent years, immigration has been a net benefit to the US economy. They have also estimated that undocumented immigrants as a whole are net contributors to the federal budget. Sorry to break it to you but you are wrong.

Btw, what do they mean by "net benefit"? Do they mean a rise in GDP, because if they do that's totally misleading.
ford_prefect
Posts: 4,139
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11/21/2014 10:59:38 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/21/2014 9:23:34 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
That's not to say I am against all immigration. Chinese and Indian immigrants, for example, are two of the highest earning groups in the whole country, and have very low crime rates. Hispanic immigrants are a different story.

Wow, its a good thing I saw this post before I replied to the others. I had a huge post ready to be typed up, but after I saw this... there's no point in wasting my time talking to a racist. Racists are some of the stupidest people alive. Good day.
dylancatlow
Posts: 12,245
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11/22/2014 1:42:53 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/21/2014 10:59:38 PM, ford_prefect wrote:
At 11/21/2014 9:23:34 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
That's not to say I am against all immigration. Chinese and Indian immigrants, for example, are two of the highest earning groups in the whole country, and have very low crime rates. Hispanic immigrants are a different story.

Wow, its a good thing I saw this post before I replied to the others. I had a huge post ready to be typed up, but after I saw this... there's no point in wasting my time talking to a racist. Racists are some of the stupidest people alive. Good day.

Are you suggesting that the statistics aren't with me on this? Because I can assure you they are. If I'm a racist for being able to think critically on this issue, then I guess I'm a racist. Facts remain facts.
dylancatlow
Posts: 12,245
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11/22/2014 1:50:37 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
I guess I'm a racist by most standards, given that I believe group differences exist. However, that's very inexact, since most racists don't treat people on an individual basis, which I always try to do. I guess I'm what Steven Pinker calls a "race realist".
dylancatlow
Posts: 12,245
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11/22/2014 2:17:47 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/21/2014 10:59:38 PM, ford_prefect wrote:
At 11/21/2014 9:23:34 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
That's not to say I am against all immigration. Chinese and Indian immigrants, for example, are two of the highest earning groups in the whole country, and have very low crime rates. Hispanic immigrants are a different story.

Wow, its a good thing I saw this post before I replied to the others. I had a huge post ready to be typed up, but after I saw this... there's no point in wasting my time talking to a racist. Racists are some of the stupidest people alive. Good day.

So, are you going to put your money where your mouth is, or are you content with your little hissy fit?
Wocambs
Posts: 1,505
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11/22/2014 6:33:29 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/21/2014 9:23:34 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
That's not to say I am against all immigration. Chinese and Indian immigrants, for example, are two of the highest earning groups in the whole country, and have very low crime rates. Hispanic immigrants are a different story.

Yes, we like the Chinese. They are a meek and obedient people...

To begin with, half of Americans pay no federal income taxes.
More than 60 percent of immigrants are on welfare.

But, can you successfully identify whose fault this is?

The idea that letting millions of unskilled/uneducated migrants into our country would be a net economic benefit is preposterous

If you have more people, the natural corollary appears to be that more work gets done, unless these people are all crippled. That is actually how reality works. How bizarre ideas about economics work is a completely different matter.
Greyparrot
Posts: 14,294
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11/22/2014 8:57:03 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/22/2014 1:50:37 AM, dylancatlow wrote:
I guess I'm a racist by most standards, given that I believe group differences exist. However, that's very inexact, since most racists don't treat people on an individual basis, which I always try to do. I guess I'm what Steven Pinker calls a "race realist".

Comparing cultures is racist. Didn't you get the memo?
Greyparrot
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11/22/2014 9:06:16 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/21/2014 10:59:38 PM, ford_prefect wrote:
At 11/21/2014 9:23:34 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
That's not to say I am against all immigration. Chinese and Indian immigrants, for example, are two of the highest earning groups in the whole country, and have very low crime rates. Hispanic immigrants are a different story.

Wow, its a good thing I saw this post before I replied to the others. I had a huge post ready to be typed up, but after I saw this... there's no point in wasting my time talking to a racist. Racists are some of the stupidest people alive. Good day.

Wow, It's a good thing I saw you post this. I now know you are a race card chucker and not worth the most basic consideration of a source of intellectual debate.
Vox_Veritas
Posts: 7,074
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11/22/2014 10:19:32 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/22/2014 9:56:39 AM, Greyparrot wrote:
http://memegenerator.net...

YOU WICKED RACIST! nac
Call me Vox, the Resident Contrarian of debate.org.

The DDO Blog:
https://debatedotorg.wordpress.com...

#drinkthecoffeenotthekoolaid
ford_prefect
Posts: 4,139
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11/22/2014 11:03:24 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/22/2014 2:17:47 AM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 11/21/2014 10:59:38 PM, ford_prefect wrote:
At 11/21/2014 9:23:34 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
That's not to say I am against all immigration. Chinese and Indian immigrants, for example, are two of the highest earning groups in the whole country, and have very low crime rates. Hispanic immigrants are a different story.

Wow, its a good thing I saw this post before I replied to the others. I had a huge post ready to be typed up, but after I saw this... there's no point in wasting my time talking to a racist. Racists are some of the stupidest people alive. Good day.

So, are you going to put your money where your mouth is, or are you content with your little hissy fit?

Like I said, no point in wasting my time showing you the research and explaining the economics behind this if you are one of those people who thinks immigrants are good or bad depending on their ethnicity. I'm gonna take a wild guess here and say that you also don't have a problem with white police or neighborhood vigilantes shooting unarmed people in "self-defense", so long as they're black.

You can keep your preconceived notions. I'm not wasting my time talking to you
ford_prefect
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11/22/2014 11:06:32 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/22/2014 9:56:39 AM, Greyparrot wrote:
http://memegenerator.net...

Minorities have a race card. White people have the race deck. I bet that makes you so upset. Back in the good old days, it was ok to openly say and do racist stuff and nobody would say a thing. Now, people play the race card and call you out on it!!! Oh no! Dont worry, you'll live.
Greyparrot
Posts: 14,294
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11/22/2014 11:21:27 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/22/2014 11:06:32 AM, ford_prefect wrote:
At 11/22/2014 9:56:39 AM, Greyparrot wrote:
http://memegenerator.net...

Minorities have a race card. White people have the race deck. I bet that makes you so upset. Back in the good old days, it was ok to openly say and do racist stuff and nobody would say a thing. Now, people play the race card and call you out on it!!! Oh no! Dont worry, you'll live.

Doesn't make me upset. It makes you a race baiter.
dylancatlow
Posts: 12,245
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11/22/2014 12:06:30 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/22/2014 6:33:29 AM, Wocambs wrote:
At 11/21/2014 9:23:34 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
That's not to say I am against all immigration. Chinese and Indian immigrants, for example, are two of the highest earning groups in the whole country, and have very low crime rates. Hispanic immigrants are a different story.

Yes, we like the Chinese. They are a meek and obedient people...

To begin with, half of Americans pay no federal income taxes.
More than 60 percent of immigrants are on welfare.

But, can you successfully identify whose fault this is?


It doesn't really matter whose fault it is, unless it will change, which I don't think it will.

The idea that letting millions of unskilled/uneducated migrants into our country would be a net economic benefit is preposterous

If you have more people, the natural corollary appears to be that more work gets done, unless these people are all crippled. That is actually how reality works. How bizarre ideas about economics work is a completely different matter.

More work gets done overall? Who cares? China's GDP is more than 20x that of Sweden, and yet no one would claim China is doing better economically than Sweden. That's not how we judge economic benefit...at all.
dylancatlow
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11/22/2014 12:12:53 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/22/2014 11:03:24 AM, ford_prefect wrote:
At 11/22/2014 2:17:47 AM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 11/21/2014 10:59:38 PM, ford_prefect wrote:
At 11/21/2014 9:23:34 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
That's not to say I am against all immigration. Chinese and Indian immigrants, for example, are two of the highest earning groups in the whole country, and have very low crime rates. Hispanic immigrants are a different story.

Wow, its a good thing I saw this post before I replied to the others. I had a huge post ready to be typed up, but after I saw this... there's no point in wasting my time talking to a racist. Racists are some of the stupidest people alive. Good day.

So, are you going to put your money where your mouth is, or are you content with your little hissy fit?

Like I said, no point in wasting my time showing you the research and explaining the economics behind this if you are one of those people who thinks immigrants are good or bad depending on their ethnicity. I'm gonna take a wild guess here and say that you also don't have a problem with white police or neighborhood vigilantes shooting unarmed people in "self-defense", so long as they're black.

You can keep your preconceived notions. I'm not wasting my time talking to you

I think, on the average, Chinese immigrants are better than Hispanic immigrants, yes. I think this because that's what the statistics suggest, so it's not "a preconceived notion", unlike your notion that my stance can't possibly be justified.