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Why Does Anarchism Fail?

GeoLaureate8
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5/6/2010 4:54:02 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Cerebral says Anarchism always fails.

Also, is Socialism compatible with Anarchism?
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
Puck
Posts: 6,457
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5/6/2010 4:58:15 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/6/2010 4:54:02 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
Cerebral says Anarchism always fails.

Yes he does. See, problem of jurisdiction and legal precedence.

Also, is Socialism compatible with Anarchism?

http://en.wikipedia.org...
http://en.wikipedia.org...
FREEDO
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5/6/2010 4:59:20 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/6/2010 4:54:02 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
Also, is Socialism compatible with Anarchism?

Anarchism MUST have socialism. Anarchism is the abolition of ALL hierarchy, which includes the Capitalist hierarchy.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
Puck
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5/6/2010 5:04:35 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
All hierarchy? So no parents then? :P

No head of <whatever armed force you think is necessary>? No guy making executive decisions anywhere at all in any capacity? What is your currency?
GeoLaureate8
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5/6/2010 5:05:04 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Ah, ok. Reminds me of Noam Chomsky. I didn't fully understand what he meant by Anarcho-Syndicalism.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
FREEDO
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5/6/2010 5:10:15 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/6/2010 5:04:35 PM, Puck wrote:
All hierarchy? So no parents then? :P

No head of <whatever armed force you think is necessary>? No guy making executive decisions anywhere at all in any capacity? What is your currency?

When I say "ALL", it is obviously with the assumption that I am talking about humans so animals would not have the same rights, and applies to young children as well because that have not in entirety obtained complete humanhood.

All communal, economic, and militia decisions are made through democratic action with each person having an equal vote. And this is not dictatorship of the majority because taking place in the commune is voluntary.

Money would be issued by banks like they are in a true free-market.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
FREEDO
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5/6/2010 5:12:16 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/6/2010 5:09:22 PM, Puck wrote:
I'm happy to debate you on whatever model of anarchy you currently advocate, Freedo.

It's funny, I was going to do that awhile ago with an Anarcho-Capitalist but right before the debate I convinced him to my side.

I would prefer to do it with an Anarcho-Capitalist.

Which, mind you, the more correct term for them should be Panarcho-Capitalist.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
GeoLaureate8
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5/6/2010 5:18:13 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/6/2010 5:10:15 PM, FREEDO wrote:
At 5/6/2010 5:04:35 PM, Puck wrote:
All hierarchy? So no parents then? :P

No head of <whatever armed force you think is necessary>? No guy making executive decisions anywhere at all in any capacity? What is your currency?

When I say "ALL", it is obviously with the assumption that I am talking about humans so animals would not have the same rights, and applies to young children as well because that have not in entirety obtained complete humanhood.

All communal, economic, and militia decisions are made through democratic action with each person having an equal vote. And this is not dictatorship of the majority because taking place in the commune is voluntary.

Militia should be abolished in an Anarchist society. The military and police are the primary forces of our enslavement. Without them, the elites have no power.

Money would be issued by banks like they are in a true free-market.

The monetary system must also be abolished. It is another driving force behind our enslavement.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
Puck
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5/6/2010 5:27:05 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/6/2010 5:10:15 PM, FREEDO wrote:
At 5/6/2010 5:04:35 PM, Puck wrote:
All hierarchy? So no parents then? :P

No head of <whatever armed force you think is necessary>? No guy making executive decisions anywhere at all in any capacity? What is your currency?

When I say "ALL", it is obviously with the assumption that I am talking about humans so animals would not have the same rights, and applies to young children as well because that have not in entirety obtained complete humanhood.

Rights = age 12? 14? 18? Huh?

All communal, economic, and militia decisions are made through democratic action with each person having an equal vote.

Soooooo it's a democracy. I thought you said no hierarchy. :P Who enacts all these voted upon 'things'? Ya do realise that a vote for *everything* you want to accomplish every single time basically makes your system static right?

And this is not dictatorship of the majority because taking place in the commune is voluntary.

Sure, no less fail, but sure.

Money would be issued by banks like they are in a true free-market.

Backed by what? What constitutes as money? What if one bank considers X money, when Y doesn't? What is the value of X vs Y vs Z vs A vs B types of currency? How do I do business with someone if I only have 1-2 types of currency? What if my boss only pays X currency but Z currency is what I need? And so on. Saying 'banks will do it' isn't really an answer. Money isn't what is automatically issued from a bank.
Puck
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5/6/2010 5:28:12 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/6/2010 5:12:16 PM, FREEDO wrote:
At 5/6/2010 5:09:22 PM, Puck wrote:
I'm happy to debate you on whatever model of anarchy you currently advocate, Freedo.

It's funny, I was going to do that awhile ago with an Anarcho-Capitalist but right before the debate I convinced him to my side.

I would prefer to do it with an Anarcho-Capitalist.

Which, mind you, the more correct term for them should be Panarcho-Capitalist.

Wasn't aware there were any here.
Puck
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5/6/2010 5:30:07 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/6/2010 5:18:13 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:

The monetary system must also be abolished. It is another driving force behind our enslavement.

Whose? Not mine that's for sure. Want to live in utopia dream land, be my guest and join Freedo's sign up register. Abolished however, you achieve ... very little at all ...
GeoLaureate8
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5/6/2010 5:39:06 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/6/2010 5:10:15 PM, FREEDO wrote:

All communal, economic, and militia decisions are made through democratic action with each person having an equal vote. And this is not dictatorship of the majority because taking place in the commune is voluntary.

Btw, this is just another democratic failure. You say that its not just a dictatorship of the majority because its voluntary, however, what if someone is affected by military orders voluntarily voted on to kill you?
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
Puck
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5/6/2010 5:40:50 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/6/2010 5:39:06 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 5/6/2010 5:10:15 PM, FREEDO wrote:

All communal, economic, and militia decisions are made through democratic action with each person having an equal vote. And this is not dictatorship of the majority because taking place in the commune is voluntary.

Btw, this is just another democratic failure. You say that its not just a dictatorship of the majority because its voluntary, however, what if someone is affected by military orders voluntarily voted on to kill you?

Then tough cookies, because I have his signature right here when he signed up for this ... :D
mongeese
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5/6/2010 5:42:11 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
FREEDO, if there is no government, then who's going to stop one man from hiring another man to be his secretary? How would you abolish hierarchy if the people see hierarchy as the most efficient system?
wjmelements
Posts: 8,206
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5/6/2010 5:46:07 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/6/2010 4:59:20 PM, FREEDO wrote:
Anarchism MUST have socialism. Anarchism is the abolition of ALL hierarchy, which includes the Capitalist hierarchy.

http://en.wikipedia.org...

And your definition is unsourced.
in the blink of an eye you finally see the light
Reasoning
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5/6/2010 5:47:22 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/6/2010 5:10:15 PM, FREEDO wrote:
When I say "ALL", it is obviously with the assumption that I am talking about humans so animals would not have the same rights, and applies to young children as well because that have not in entirety obtained complete humanhood.

Ageist.
"What we really ought to ask the liberal, before we even begin addressing his agenda, is this: In what kind of society would he be a conservative?" - Joseph Sobran
wjmelements
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5/6/2010 5:47:30 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/6/2010 5:12:16 PM, FREEDO wrote:
Which, mind you, the more correct term for them should be Panarcho-Capitalist.

Both terms are accurate for there is no 'state' under A-Cap.
in the blink of an eye you finally see the light
Reasoning
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5/6/2010 5:47:45 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/6/2010 5:18:13 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
Militia should be abolished in an Anarchist society. The military and police are the primary forces of our enslavement. Without them, the elites have no power.

I'm impressed.
"What we really ought to ask the liberal, before we even begin addressing his agenda, is this: In what kind of society would he be a conservative?" - Joseph Sobran
GeoLaureate8
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5/6/2010 5:49:59 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/6/2010 5:30:07 PM, Puck wrote:
At 5/6/2010 5:18:13 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:

The monetary system must also be abolished. It is another driving force behind our enslavement.

Whose? Not mine that's for sure. Want to live in utopia dream land, be my guest and join Freedo's sign up register. Abolished however, you achieve ... very little at all ...

I am forced to rely upon money to survive and I am restricted by money from attaining goods and I can be thrown in jail for not paying money to a certain institution.

Btw, I don't want a utopian society, I want all authority abolished. See my signature.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
wjmelements
Posts: 8,206
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5/6/2010 5:56:17 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/6/2010 5:42:11 PM, mongeese wrote:
FREEDO, if there is no government, then who's going to stop one man from hiring another man to be his secretary? How would you abolish hierarchy if the people see hierarchy as the most efficient system?

A man is not a slave and would never subject himself to being one. You fail to see, mongeese, that the market is not a voluntary system, but a violent one. All this disappears when we execute the capitalists. No one would voluntarily subject themselves to hire, silly. Especially when they can free-load off of the sudden abundance of communes. The only reason these communes don't exist on a grand scale, by the way, is the force the capitalists have used on us for centuries. It certainly has nothing to do with efficiency or the lack of incentive to contribute.
in the blink of an eye you finally see the light
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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5/6/2010 6:03:57 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/6/2010 4:59:20 PM, FREEDO wrote:
At 5/6/2010 4:54:02 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
Also, is Socialism compatible with Anarchism?

Anarchism MUST have socialism. Anarchism is the abolition of ALL hierarchy, which includes the Capitalist hierarchy.

How can a classless society be enforced without a government? Who's going to be there to stop someone from reaching a higher class and exploiting the lower class?
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
comoncents
Posts: 5,647
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5/6/2010 6:14:58 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/6/2010 4:54:02 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
Cerebral says Anarchism always fails.


I think it does.
AoC were close to Anarchism and it failed.
J.Kenyon
Posts: 4,194
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5/6/2010 6:20:43 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/6/2010 5:49:59 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
I am forced to rely upon money to survive and I am restricted by money from attaining goods and I can be thrown in jail for not paying money to a certain institution.

Btw, I don't want a utopian society, I want all authority abolished. See my signature.

Do you advocate abolishing legal tender laws which force us to use worthless paper as "money" or do you want force everyone to go back to the barter system? If it's the former, then good man. If it's the latter, you're a retard.

At 5/6/2010 5:10:15 PM, FREEDO wrote:
All communal, economic, and militia decisions are made through democratic action with each person having an equal vote. And this is not dictatorship of the majority because taking place in the commune is voluntary.

Sounds efficient.

Why would anyone voluntarily choose to allow everyone else to make their decisions for them? I wouldn't.

Money would be issued by banks like they are in a true free-market.

False. Money in a laissez-faire system is a commodity (or commodities) chosen by market forces as a medium of exchange because it possesses certain qualities such as universal desirability, high unit value, fungibility, durability, utility, and relative scarcity.
Puck
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5/6/2010 6:28:38 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/6/2010 5:49:59 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:

I am forced to rely upon money to survive and I am restricted by money from attaining goods

Yeah crazy. People should just produce stuff so you can take it from them freely.

and I can be thrown in jail for not paying money to a certain institution.

That's taxes, not money per se. Taxes are not a requisite for money.


Btw, I don't want a utopian society, I want all authority abolished. See my signature.

So ... utopian idealism. :P
GeoLaureate8
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5/6/2010 6:39:52 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/6/2010 6:20:43 PM, J.Kenyon wrote:
At 5/6/2010 5:49:59 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
I am forced to rely upon money to survive and I am restricted by money from attaining goods and I can be thrown in jail for not paying money to a certain institution.

Btw, I don't want a utopian society, I want all authority abolished. See my signature.

Do you advocate abolishing legal tender laws which force us to use worthless paper as "money" or do you want force everyone to go back to the barter system? If it's the former, then good man. If it's the latter, you're a retard.

Neither. Money doesn't exist and we should stop pretending that it does.

I advocate a resource-based economy to replace the current monetary system. There is no need to horde resources and then ration them unevenly. There's an overabundance of resources that need not be treated scarcely.

http://en.wikipedia.org...
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
Reasoning
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5/6/2010 6:59:08 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/6/2010 6:14:58 PM, comoncents wrote:
AoC were close to Anarchism and it failed.

Lol.
"What we really ought to ask the liberal, before we even begin addressing his agenda, is this: In what kind of society would he be a conservative?" - Joseph Sobran
Xer
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5/6/2010 7:02:23 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/6/2010 6:59:08 PM, Reasoning wrote:
At 5/6/2010 6:14:58 PM, comoncents wrote:
AoC were close to Anarchism and it failed.

Lol.

I thought the same thing.
Cody_Franklin
Posts: 9,484
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5/6/2010 7:17:06 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/6/2010 6:39:52 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 5/6/2010 6:20:43 PM, J.Kenyon wrote:
At 5/6/2010 5:49:59 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
I am forced to rely upon money to survive and I am restricted by money from attaining goods and I can be thrown in jail for not paying money to a certain institution.

Btw, I don't want a utopian society, I want all authority abolished. See my signature.

Do you advocate abolishing legal tender laws which force us to use worthless paper as "money" or do you want force everyone to go back to the barter system? If it's the former, then good man. If it's the latter, you're a retard.

Neither. Money doesn't exist and we should stop pretending that it does.

I advocate a resource-based economy to replace the current monetary system. There is no need to horde resources and then ration them unevenly. There's an overabundance of resources that need not be treated scarcely.

http://en.wikipedia.org...

First of all, you're treating "resources" as something that exists independent of its producers. Are you aware that people actually have to put work into the production and processing of "resources", and that they expect to profit beyond having their basic needs filled?

Second of all, let's say that you eliminate the money system, even passing up gold as a reliable, finite-in-quantity means of exchange. How exactly do you achieve any kind of trade beyond the crudeness of a barter system?