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Fascism is a form of Socialism

innomen
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5/7/2010 9:32:13 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
It is commonly thought, incorrectly, that fascism is the extreme of conservatism, as socialism is the extreme of liberalism. If conservatism is about individuality, free market, personal responsibility, small government, i do not see how one could find fascism as a natural result of extreme conservatism. On the contrary; fascists nationalize banks first, then industry - far from a conservative decision. Fascists impose a large and powerful government, again not conservative. Fascists disregard personal and individual liberty in favor of the state's desire for control. What i see as a major differentiating factor between fascism and socialism is the nationalistic ferver that has existed in fascist governments. Musolini has been considered the father of fascism, but look into his background and he had been an ardent socialist/communist. Fascism is not unimpeded conservatism, but rather "national socialism" - where have i heard that before?
JBlake
Posts: 4,634
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5/7/2010 10:58:20 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
The Nazis based much of their rhetoric on tradition and traditional values. Conservatives are very much the same n this respect. They both tended toward social authoritarian as well.

Still, I don't really see a point in attempting to compare either ideology to Nazis. Are you trying to imply that liberals are as bad as the Nazi were?
innomen
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5/7/2010 11:03:41 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/7/2010 10:58:20 AM, JBlake wrote:
The Nazis based much of their rhetoric on tradition and traditional values. Conservatives are very much the same n this respect. They both tended toward social authoritarian as well.

Still, I don't really see a point in attempting to compare either ideology to Nazis. Are you trying to imply that liberals are as bad as the Nazi were?

More, that there is very little difference between Fascism and Socialism. Nazis based their traditional values in the realm of nationalism. The traditional values by most conservatives are less nationalistic and with less ferver - and also is not really doctrinal, but a fringe characteristic by some. The core ideology of Fascism is a nationalized economy, and a large intrusive government.
Cerebral_Narcissist
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5/7/2010 11:06:25 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
It almost seems to me that a better term for the Nazis would have been the National Socialists... oh wait a minute...
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
innomen
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5/7/2010 11:15:07 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/7/2010 11:06:25 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
It almost seems to me that a better term for the Nazis would have been the National Socialists... oh wait a minute...

It does doesn't it.
JBlake
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5/7/2010 11:26:53 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
Their economic system was more similar to corporatism than socialism. But if you wish to re-write history, be my guest. Please make your argument.

I will have to disagree with your analysis that nationalism is only held by a fringe minority of conservatives. I will agree that the Nazis took it to a further extreme. Which is why it is pointless to make these types of comparisons with Nazis. The goal is almost always to take a position, add a slippery slope, and make a caricature out of it.
JBlake
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5/7/2010 11:29:50 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
Additionally, the Nazi economic policy was rather successful. So your comparison isn't exactly an insult... Even if the comparison is not warranted.
innomen
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5/7/2010 11:32:05 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/7/2010 11:26:53 AM, JBlake wrote:
Their economic system was more similar to corporatism than socialism. But if you wish to re-write history, be my guest. Please make your argument.

I will have to disagree with your analysis that nationalism is only held by a fringe minority of conservatives. I will agree that the Nazis took it to a further extreme. Which is why it is pointless to make these types of comparisons with Nazis. The goal is almost always to take a position, add a slippery slope, and make a caricature out of it.

The first thing Hitler did was (well not really the first, but one of the first economic things) nationalize the banks, then he began to nationalize private industry. I really don't know what the difference is between nationalizing something, and socializing something. The term corporatist is broad if not vague in actual practical application.

I agree with you on the Nazi example...way over used, and often not understood. Musolini's Italy is a far better example, albeit short lived.
InsertNameHere
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5/7/2010 12:51:48 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Whoever made this thread clearly knows little about fascism. I recognize it as a difficult ideology to define, but it's in no way socialist. As most people know, socialism is based on equality, an aspect fascism lacks, particularly Nazism(since it has the nationalistic "Germans are superior" tendencies). Also, last time I checked, corporatism wasn't socialism.
GeoLaureate8
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5/7/2010 12:55:05 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Conservatives like to censor things, they are nationalistic to the core, they want to tell you what substances can and cant go in your body, they want everyone to have a gun, they want to tell you what to do with your uterus, they want a theocracy, and they like to invade other countries and kill people.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
Anarcho
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5/7/2010 1:08:37 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
This is just some crap saying "Big government=Socialist" .
InsertNameHere wrote: "If we evolved from apes then why are apes still around?

This is semi-serious btw. It's something that seems strange to me. You'd think that entire species would cease to exist if other ones evolved from them."

Anarcho wrote: *facepalm*
innomen
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5/7/2010 1:16:25 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/7/2010 1:08:37 PM, Anarcho wrote:
This is just some crap saying "Big government=Socialist" .

How so? Have you seen a socialist government that had a small central government and strong locality governments?
InsertNameHere
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5/7/2010 1:19:53 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/7/2010 1:16:25 PM, innomen wrote:
At 5/7/2010 1:08:37 PM, Anarcho wrote:
This is just some crap saying "Big government=Socialist" .

How so? Have you seen a socialist government that had a small central government and strong locality governments?

Well personally I don't think there's any problem with big government, but big government doesn't automatically = socialism.
innomen
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5/7/2010 1:21:43 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/7/2010 12:55:05 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
Conservatives like to censor things, they are nationalistic to the core, they want to tell you what substances can and cant go in your body, they want everyone to have a gun, they want to tell you what to do with your uterus, they want a theocracy, and they like to invade other countries and kill people.

Silly thoughts typed out loud.
You think that there was a little bit of censorship going on in...well you can choose the Socialist country Soviet Union, Red China, North Korea, and now we can look at Hugo Chavez and what he is up to. Red China doesn't tell you what a woman can do with her uteris?

There are extremists on every front, however among conservatives (generally speaking) cooler heads prevail. However, on the socialist front, there would be no hesitation in the slightest to rearrange our economy to suit the agenda of those who know so very little about economy.
JBlake
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5/7/2010 1:22:12 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
I think he means that you were attempting to make the argument that all big governments are socialist. He is implying that he believes that this is not the case, presumably with Fascism as an example of a form of government that is "big government" and not socialist.
innomen
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5/7/2010 1:22:52 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/7/2010 1:19:53 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 5/7/2010 1:16:25 PM, innomen wrote:
At 5/7/2010 1:08:37 PM, Anarcho wrote:
This is just some crap saying "Big government=Socialist" .

How so? Have you seen a socialist government that had a small central government and strong locality governments?

Well personally I don't think there's any problem with big government, but big government doesn't automatically = socialism.

Big government = nothing good
innomen
Posts: 10,052
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5/7/2010 1:24:10 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/7/2010 1:22:12 PM, JBlake wrote:
I think he means that you were attempting to make the argument that all big governments are socialist. He is implying that he believes that this is not the case, presumably with Fascism as an example of a form of government that is "big government" and not socialist.

The entire point of this post is that fascism is the same as socialism. I cannot imagine a big government that doesn't embrace socialism.
InsertNameHere
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5/7/2010 1:26:20 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/7/2010 12:55:05 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
Conservatives like to censor things, they are nationalistic to the core, they want to tell you what substances can and cant go in your body, they want everyone to have a gun, they want to tell you what to do with your uterus, they want a theocracy, and they like to invade other countries and kill people.

Funny that I believe some things should be censored, certain substances shouldn't go into a person's body, and that women's access to abortions should be limited yet I'm not a conservative. Go figure. :/
InsertNameHere
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5/7/2010 1:27:34 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/7/2010 1:24:10 PM, innomen wrote:
At 5/7/2010 1:22:12 PM, JBlake wrote:
I think he means that you were attempting to make the argument that all big governments are socialist. He is implying that he believes that this is not the case, presumably with Fascism as an example of a form of government that is "big government" and not socialist.

The entire point of this post is that fascism is the same as socialism. I cannot imagine a big government that doesn't embrace socialism.

Well they can be. Fascist regimes, for example, are opposed to socialism. Also, many fascists tend to be social darwinists, a concept that doesn't sit well with socialists.
feverish
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5/7/2010 1:29:11 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/7/2010 1:24:10 PM, innomen wrote:


The entire point of this post is that fascism is the same as socialism. I cannot imagine a big government that doesn't embrace socialism.

Then you lack imagination. What definition of socialism are you even referring to?
JBlake
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5/7/2010 1:30:15 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/7/2010 1:24:10 PM, innomen wrote:
At 5/7/2010 1:22:12 PM, JBlake wrote:
I think he means that you were attempting to make the argument that all big governments are socialist. He is implying that he believes that this is not the case, presumably with Fascism as an example of a form of government that is "big government" and not socialist.

The entire point of this post is that fascism is the same as socialism. I cannot imagine a big government that doesn't embrace socialism.

Mussolini's Fascist Italy is an example of big government that was not socialist. His policies are known as corporatism. By that I mean that he created a board for corporations to sit on and control the economy. This is not socialism.
http://en.wikipedia.org...

Again, don't think you should really be using Fascism as an example as to why socialism is bad. If you assume that fascism=socialism (which I do not, but I will grant for this point), then socialism can be quite successful. The economic policy of Fascist Italy and (especially) Nazi Germany was quite successful. They were both, of course very different policies. However, they were both very successful. Germany came out of the Great Depression much faster than the rest of the world.
JBlake
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5/7/2010 1:31:23 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/7/2010 1:29:11 PM, feverish wrote:
At 5/7/2010 1:24:10 PM, innomen wrote:


The entire point of this post is that fascism is the same as socialism. I cannot imagine a big government that doesn't embrace socialism.

Then you lack imagination. What definition of socialism are you even referring to?

I am assuming by the arguments he has made so far that he is using socialism broadly to mean government intervention or control of the economy.
Volkov
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5/7/2010 1:31:28 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
I don't see how fascism is a form of socialism... socialism is an economic theory, not a social one. They aren't subsets of one another.
InsertNameHere
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5/7/2010 1:32:10 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/7/2010 1:30:15 PM, JBlake wrote:
Germany came out of the Great Depression much faster than the rest of the world.

Which is one of the reasons as to why I would say Hitler was a great leader, minus the slaughter of millions of people and causing a world war of course. ^^
Reasoning
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5/7/2010 1:32:58 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/7/2010 1:31:28 PM, Volkov wrote:
socialism is an economic theory

"Socialism is a political philosophy..."[1]

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org...
"What we really ought to ask the liberal, before we even begin addressing his agenda, is this: In what kind of society would he be a conservative?" - Joseph Sobran
JBlake
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5/7/2010 1:34:20 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/7/2010 1:30:15 PM, JBlake wrote:
Again, don't think you should really be using Fascism as an example as to why socialism is bad. If you assume that fascism=socialism (which I do not, but I will grant for this point), then socialism can be quite successful. The economic policy of Fascist Italy and (especially) Nazi Germany was quite successful. They were both, of course very different policies. However, they were both very successful. Germany came out of the Great Depression much faster than the rest of the world.

Both Fascist governments took a country with a struggling economy and rose to a world power in a very short time.
innomen
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5/7/2010 1:46:35 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/7/2010 1:34:20 PM, JBlake wrote:
At 5/7/2010 1:30:15 PM, JBlake wrote:
Again, don't think you should really be using Fascism as an example as to why socialism is bad. If you assume that fascism=socialism (which I do not, but I will grant for this point), then socialism can be quite successful. The economic policy of Fascist Italy and (especially) Nazi Germany was quite successful. They were both, of course very different policies. However, they were both very successful. Germany came out of the Great Depression much faster than the rest of the world.

Both Fascist governments took a country with a struggling economy and rose to a world power in a very short time.

It is not a sustainable system of government, or economy. Even if it is, at what cost? Even if it works, is it what you would choose? Any government that is big enough to give you what you want is big enough to take what you have. The Chinese have probably the most sustainable socialism in the history of the world, and they now have a sort of hybrid of a philosophical and social version of socialism, but have employed capitalism as a fuel. In any case, would you choose that society in which to live?
Volkov
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5/7/2010 1:48:08 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/7/2010 1:32:58 PM, Reasoning wrote:
"Socialism is a political philosophy..."[1]

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org...

"Socialism is a political philosophy..... that encompasses various theories of economic organization based on either public or direct worker ownership and administration of the means of production and allocation of resources."

Try quoting the entire sentence next time.