Total Posts:95|Showing Posts:1-30|Last Page
Jump to topic:

Democracy???

comoncents
Posts: 5,647
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/12/2010 9:40:55 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Having read old writings I am finding myself questioning "democracy"

Reading Kant and Plato you can see that it was seen as a bad form of government.

Now, people love the thought of democracy.

Who here loves democracy?
Why?

It was the death-knell of Athens, as Plato himself noted.

......................................................................................................................
"Democracy," he said, "passes into despotism."

He called democracy "a charming form of government, full of variety and disorder, and dispensing a sort of equality to equals and unequals alike. We know her well. ... In what manner does tyranny arise? – that it has democratic origins is evident. ... And does not tyranny spring from democracy in the same manner as democracy from oligarchy?"

-Plato
(Our founding fathers did not seem to keen on it either.)
comoncents
Posts: 5,647
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/12/2010 9:48:04 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/12/2010 9:43:58 PM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
At 5/12/2010 9:40:55 PM, comoncents wrote:
Having read old writings I am finding myself questioning "democracy"

Reading Kant and Plato you can see that it was seen as a bad form of government.

Well, Plato and Kant were f*cking retarded. Especially Kant.

Case closed.

Your funny.
What do you really think about democracy. They make great points against it.
It has been credited to the fall of Athens.
comoncents
Posts: 5,647
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/12/2010 9:49:20 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/12/2010 9:44:05 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
Ok, which form of governance would you want if not democracy?

Well, I currently enjoy a constitutional republic?

(even thought the constitutional part is not being upheld at the moment)
InsertNameHere
Posts: 15,699
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/12/2010 9:50:16 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/12/2010 9:49:20 PM, comoncents wrote:
At 5/12/2010 9:44:05 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
Ok, which form of governance would you want if not democracy?

Well, I currently enjoy a constitutional republic?

(even thought the constitutional part is not being upheld at the moment)

You do realize Constitutional Republics are Democratic, right? I thought you were dissatisfied with democracy? :P
Volkov
Posts: 9,765
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/12/2010 9:51:21 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/12/2010 9:48:04 PM, comoncents wrote:
It has been credited to the fall of Athens.

That's like saying fascism has been credited to the fall of Nazi Germany. Sure, if you want a vague explanation like that; but the fact is that there are many different reasons for the collapse of any state of any ideology.
comoncents
Posts: 5,647
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/12/2010 9:53:08 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/12/2010 9:50:16 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 5/12/2010 9:49:20 PM, comoncents wrote:
At 5/12/2010 9:44:05 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
Ok, which form of governance would you want if not democracy?

Well, I currently enjoy a constitutional republic?

(even thought the constitutional part is not being upheld at the moment)

You do realize Constitutional Republics are Democratic, right?

No.
They are two totally different things.

I thought you were dissatisfied with democracy? :P
InsertNameHere
Posts: 15,699
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/12/2010 9:54:30 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/12/2010 9:53:08 PM, comoncents wrote:
At 5/12/2010 9:50:16 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 5/12/2010 9:49:20 PM, comoncents wrote:
At 5/12/2010 9:44:05 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
Ok, which form of governance would you want if not democracy?

Well, I currently enjoy a constitutional republic?

(even thought the constitutional part is not being upheld at the moment)

You do realize Constitutional Republics are Democratic, right?

No.
They are two totally different things.

No, democracy is electing your leaders? That's generally done in constitutional republics.
Volkov
Posts: 9,765
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/12/2010 9:54:46 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/12/2010 9:53:08 PM, comoncents wrote:
No.
They are two totally different things.

Comon, your "constitutional republic" is nothing but a way to organize a system of governance still based on democratic values.

Do people still get the vote? Are representatives still sent to the capital? Is at least one branch of the government elected?
comoncents
Posts: 5,647
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/12/2010 10:00:57 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/12/2010 9:54:46 PM, Volkov wrote:
At 5/12/2010 9:53:08 PM, comoncents wrote:
No.
They are two totally different things.

Comon, your "constitutional republic" is nothing but a way to organize a system of governance still based on democratic values.


Explain?

Do people still get the vote?

Do the majority run the country?

Are representatives still sent to the capital?

That is a republic.

Is at least one branch of the government elected?

That would be a republic.

A democracy is different.
We have some democratic traditions but it is by no means a democracy.
Cody_Franklin
Posts: 9,484
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/12/2010 10:01:59 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/12/2010 9:48:04 PM, comoncents wrote:
At 5/12/2010 9:43:58 PM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
At 5/12/2010 9:40:55 PM, comoncents wrote:
Having read old writings I am finding myself questioning "democracy"

Reading Kant and Plato you can see that it was seen as a bad form of government.

Well, Plato and Kant were f*cking retarded. Especially Kant.

Case closed.

Your funny.

I'm dead serious.

What do you really think about democracy.

That depends. As long as the government stays out of the economy, and sticks to policing, military-ing, and maintaining a court system, I'm just fine. If the majority seeks to deprive me of any of my rights, for any reason, in any capacity, for any length of time, then democracy can go f*ck itself.

They make great points against it.

They make great points against their own philosophy; though, that's usually by accident.

It has been credited to the fall of Athens.

What has been credited? By whom? And why?
comoncents
Posts: 5,647
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/12/2010 10:03:02 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/12/2010 9:54:30 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 5/12/2010 9:53:08 PM, comoncents wrote:
At 5/12/2010 9:50:16 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 5/12/2010 9:49:20 PM, comoncents wrote:
At 5/12/2010 9:44:05 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
Ok, which form of governance would you want if not democracy?

Well, I currently enjoy a constitutional republic?

(even thought the constitutional part is not being upheld at the moment)

You do realize Constitutional Republics are Democratic, right?

No.
They are two totally different things.

No, democracy is electing your leaders?

No, a republic is electing your leaders.
A democracy is the majority are the leader.

Two different things.

One has checks and balances the other is completely run by the majority.

That's generally done in constitutional republics.

Yes. That is what makes them republics and not democracies.
Volkov
Posts: 9,765
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/12/2010 10:03:17 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/12/2010 10:00:57 PM, comoncents wrote:
Explain?

I really don't know what to explain here.

Do the majority run the country?

Yes.

That is a republic.

That's called a representative democracy.

That would be a republic.

A democracy is different.
We have some democratic traditions but it is by no means a democracy.

If you're getting into pure technical terms, then yes... but no one cares about the pure technical terms. Your "constitutional republic" is nothing but a system based on democratic traditions. Ergo, it's pretty much a democracy, or at least falls under the umbrella term.
InsertNameHere
Posts: 15,699
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/12/2010 10:04:28 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/12/2010 10:03:02 PM, comoncents wrote:

No, a republic is electing your leaders.
A democracy is the majority are the leader.

I think you're confusing Direct Democracy and Representative Democracy.
Volkov
Posts: 9,765
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/12/2010 10:06:11 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/12/2010 10:04:28 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
I think you're confusing Direct Democracy and Representative Democracy.

Indeed he is.

Comon, do you know the difference?
comoncents
Posts: 5,647
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/12/2010 10:06:37 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/12/2010 10:03:17 PM, Volkov wrote:
At 5/12/2010 10:00:57 PM, comoncents wrote:
Explain?

I really don't know what to explain here.

Do the majority run the country?

Yes.


No they don't.

That is a republic.

That's called a representative democracy.


No. It is deeper.

"The term republic may have many different meanings. It normally means a state with an elected or otherwise non-monarchical head of state, such as the Islamic Republic of Iran or Republic of Korea. Sometimes in the US it is used similar to liberal democracy. For example, "the United States relies on representative democracy, but its system of government is much more complex than that. It is not a simple representative democracy, but a constitutional republic in which majority rule is tempered."[2]."

That would be a republic.

A democracy is different.
We have some democratic traditions but it is by no means a democracy.

If you're getting into pure technical terms, then yes... but no one cares about the pure technical terms. Your "constitutional republic" is nothing but a system based on democratic traditions. Ergo, it's pretty much a democracy, or at least falls under the umbrella term.

No democracy is different.
Danielle
Posts: 21,330
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/12/2010 10:08:04 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/12/2010 9:43:58 PM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
Well, Plato and Kant were f*cking retarded. Especially Kant.

Not so. Both had their really dumb@ss moments but they were not completely full of sh!t. What in particular about Kant do you find so terrible?
President of DDO
comoncents
Posts: 5,647
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/12/2010 10:11:12 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Just to clear up the confusion some have.

Democracy-"rule of the people", 1 a : government by the people; especially : rule of the majority b : a government in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised by them directly or indirectly through a system of representation usually involving periodically held free elections, the common people especially when constituting the source of political authority.

Republic- : a government having a chief of state who is not a monarch and who in modern times is usually a president (2) : a political unit (as a nation) having such a form of government b (1) : a government in which supreme power resides in a body of citizens entitled to vote and is exercised by elected officers and representatives responsible to them and governing according to law (2) : a political unit (as a nation) having such a form of government c : a usually specified republican government of a political unit <the French Fourth Republic>
2 : a body of persons freely engaged in a specified activity

Also,

Democracy:

Invloves the government ruling and making laws for the "greater good" of all people, they may abolish personal rights in doing so.

Democracy is government by and for the people. They may or may not be republics--that is, government limited by constitution or charter.

The tricky part of "democracy" is defining "the people" and then deciding what counts as "by the people" and what counts as "for the people." In a sense, that could be considered the content of democratic practice.

Republic:
Involves the government using and abiding by the constitution heavily. Personal rights are respected and cannot be taken away. This helps to avoid tyranny and mobocracy (the majority makes laws and governs by passion, prejudice, or impulse, without restraint or regard to consequences).
Republics are the common and "standard" type of governments found today, not democracies, despite what many people (who may not know the definition of either) think.
Just as democracies may or may not be republics, republics may or may not be democracies.

The difference between Democracy and Republic:

Democracy and Republic are two forms of government which are distinguished by their treatment of the Minority, and the Individual, by the Majority.
In a Democracy, the Majority has unlimited power over the Minority. This system of government does not provide a legal safeguard of the rights of the Individual and the Minority. It has been referred to as "Majority over Man".
In a Republic, the Majority is Limited and constrained by a written Constitution which protects the rights of the Individual and the Minority. The purpose of a Republic form of government is to control the Majority and to protect the God-given, inalienable rights and liberty of the Individual.
The United States of America is founded as a Republic under the Constitution.
comoncents
Posts: 5,647
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/12/2010 10:12:10 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/12/2010 10:04:28 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 5/12/2010 10:03:02 PM, comoncents wrote:

No, a republic is electing your leaders.
A democracy is the majority are the leader.

I think you're confusing Direct Democracy and Representative Democracy.

No I am talking about democracy vs republic.

No term in front. Just as it is.
comoncents
Posts: 5,647
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/12/2010 10:12:34 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/12/2010 10:06:11 PM, Volkov wrote:
At 5/12/2010 10:04:28 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
I think you're confusing Direct Democracy and Representative Democracy.

Indeed he is.

Comon, do you know the difference?

Yes.
Volkov
Posts: 9,765
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/12/2010 10:12:59 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/12/2010 10:08:35 PM, Volkov wrote:
Comon, do you know the difference between direct democracy and representative democracy?

I'll take that as a "no."
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/12/2010 10:15:33 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch." - Benjamin Franklin
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
comoncents
Posts: 5,647
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/12/2010 10:15:54 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/12/2010 10:08:04 PM, theLwerd wrote:
At 5/12/2010 9:43:58 PM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
Well, Plato and Kant were f*cking retarded. Especially Kant.

Not so. Both had their really dumb@ss moments but they were not completely full of sh!t. What in particular about Kant do you find so terrible?

Well some parts of perpetual peace.
But the parts I am thinking of he explains them to be "not important where you stand" on the topics as long as the major goal is in mind.

Like, "not having a standing army"
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/12/2010 10:16:41 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
"Everyone votes for a dictator." - (The Prisoner)

.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
comoncents
Posts: 5,647
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/12/2010 10:16:52 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/12/2010 10:15:33 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch." - Benjamin Franklin

Thats why he made sure we are not a democracy but a republic.
Volkov
Posts: 9,765
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/12/2010 10:17:19 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/12/2010 10:16:52 PM, comoncents wrote:
Thats why he made sure we are not a democracy but a republic.

Oh Lord...
comoncents
Posts: 5,647
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/12/2010 10:23:19 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/12/2010 10:13:20 PM, Volkov wrote:
At 5/12/2010 10:12:34 PM, comoncents wrote:
Yes.

What's the difference.

I have told you the difference in democracy and republic.

But as for what you propose.

Direct democracy is all citizens coming together to make the decisions for the whole.

Representative democracy is closer to a republic but lacks the force of checks and balances. It is elected officials making decisions that directly represent the people.

But I am not putting anything in front of my word "democracy" so I expect you to take the definition of the actual word.

Like if I say democracy=despotism, I do not expect you to have me explain the difference between despotism and soft despotism.

I write what I write so you can take the definition of the word not transform the word with adding to the front of it.