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Minarchism Vs. Panarchism

FREEDO
Posts: 21,057
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5/17/2010 4:11:39 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Both act like a business. You choose to pay for having the service or not. But in Minarchism there is only one choice to pick from because there is a monopoly on force, which is sustained by force.
Panarchism basically means you can choose your system without moving; there is no such thing as boarders.
Do not confuse Panarchism for Anarchism which is a specific form of Panarchism where hierarchies are abolished.

Discuss.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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5/17/2010 4:31:20 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Minarchy means minimal government, but its still government. I don't see how it's a business that you choose.

In Panarchism, that is the aspect I disagree with. The aspect of choosing your form of government for your own area. It's still government.

I prefer the definition provided by Mark Salter (one of the first Panarchists): "An inclusive, Universal system of governance in which all may participate meaningfully."

Holling proposed that Panarchy is the antithesis of hierarchy, and therefore, no one has authority over another. That's the form of Panarchy I agree with and it is superior to Minarchy.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
FREEDO
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5/17/2010 4:42:48 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/17/2010 4:31:20 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
Minarchy means minimal government, but its still government. I don't see how it's a business that you choose.

In Panarchism, that is the aspect I disagree with. The aspect of choosing your form of government for your own area. It's still government.

It's not really government when it's voluntary. Just an organization.

I prefer the definition provided by Mark Salter (one of the first Panarchists): "An inclusive, Universal system of governance in which all may participate meaningfully."

Holling proposed that Panarchy is the antithesis of hierarchy, and therefore, no one has authority over another. That's the form of Panarchy I agree with and it is superior to Minarchy.

No, that's Anarchism.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
wjmelements
Posts: 8,206
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5/17/2010 5:43:41 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Panarchism is more ethical in that it allows one to choose whether or not to be involved in a government at all. It doesn't work when one gains the ability to destroy the others and force its violent monopoly on society, but that happens under every system.
in the blink of an eye you finally see the light
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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5/18/2010 12:23:02 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/17/2010 4:42:48 PM, FREEDO wrote:
At 5/17/2010 4:31:20 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
Minarchy means minimal government, but its still government. I don't see how it's a business that you choose.

In Panarchism, that is the aspect I disagree with. The aspect of choosing your form of government for your own area. It's still government.

It's not really government when it's voluntary. Just an organization.

It doesn't even make sense. How does everyone get to choose a government? How large is a government jurisdiction and what if you live in the jurisdiction of a governmet you didn't choose?

I prefer the definition provided by Mark Salter (one of the first Panarchists): "An inclusive, Universal system of governance in which all may participate meaningfully."

Holling proposed that Panarchy is the antithesis of hierarchy, and therefore, no one has authority over another. That's the form of Panarchy I agree with and it is superior to Minarchy.

No, that's Anarchism.

Holling is one of the founders of Panarchism and defined it as such. So I think what he says is Panarchy is what it is.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
Volkov
Posts: 9,765
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5/18/2010 12:25:44 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/18/2010 12:23:02 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
Holling is one of the founders of Panarchism and defined it as such. So I think what he says is Panarchy is what it is.

Appeal to authority.

Had to point it out, sorry.
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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5/18/2010 12:31:44 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/18/2010 12:25:44 PM, Volkov wrote:
At 5/18/2010 12:23:02 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
Holling is one of the founders of Panarchism and defined it as such. So I think what he says is Panarchy is what it is.

Appeal to authority.

Had to point it out, sorry.

Wow. That's a new low for you Volkov. Intellectual foul. If someone creates an ideology, concept, or definition, it is what they say it is. You can't just come to him and say, "Holling, I know you coined the term and all, but I decided to officially declare Panarchy to mean compartmentalized fascism."
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
Volkov
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5/18/2010 12:39:22 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/18/2010 12:31:44 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
Wow. That's a new low for you Volkov. Intellectual foul. If someone creates an ideology, concept, or definition, it is what they say it is. You can't just come to him and say, "Holling, I know you coined the term and all, but I decided to officially declare Panarchy to mean compartmentalized fascism."

No, but to say that whatever Holling says is panarchy - what makes up the ideas, not the semantic definition - is what it is, and there's zero room for argument, is an appeal to authority. He might have had the strongest influence in creating it, but interpretations and ideas differ, and you can only say that the original creator/whatever said that this is what he thought it was and defined it as such - not that, he said it, so it must be true.
GeoLaureate8
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5/18/2010 1:01:06 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/18/2010 12:39:22 PM, Volkov wrote:
At 5/18/2010 12:31:44 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
Wow. That's a new low for you Volkov. Intellectual foul. If someone creates an ideology, concept, or definition, it is what they say it is. You can't just come to him and say, "Holling, I know you coined the term and all, but I decided to officially declare Panarchy to mean compartmentalized fascism."

No, but to say that whatever Holling says is panarchy - what makes up the ideas, not the semantic definition - is what it is, and there's zero room for argument, is an appeal to authority. He might have had the strongest influence in creating it, but interpretations and ideas differ, and you can only say that the original creator/whatever said that this is what he thought it was and defined it as such - not that, he said it, so it must be true.

I agree with all that, but you can't call my statement appeal to authority. Appeal to authority is when I appeal to an authority who does not specialize in the topic at hand. If you are debating someone and say "Youre wrong. Richard Dawkins says that not all biological life necessarily needs oxygen and carbon to survive." that's a valid argument. Would you exclaim "Appeal to authority" in this case?

I agree that we can debate about the implications of Panarchy, but if a founder of Panarchy defines it as the antithesis of all hierarchy, then Freedo can't say "no." Well, he can, but his statement will hold no ground.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
Korashk
Posts: 4,597
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5/18/2010 1:02:02 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Volkov's got you. Geo, you're the last person I'd expect to make an appeal to authority.
When large numbers of otherwise-law abiding people break specific laws en masse, it's usually a fault that lies with the law. - Unknown
Volkov
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5/18/2010 1:06:37 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/18/2010 1:01:06 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
I agree with all that, but you can't call my statement appeal to authority. Appeal to authority is when I appeal to an authority who does not specialize in the topic at hand.

Whoa, hold on there. An appeal to authority does include that, yes, but it's not the sole basis for it. An appeal to authority is simply claiming something to be true on the idea that this person is an expert, therefore they're right about it. That's why relying on Holling, despite his position as "founder" of Panarchism, is an appeal to authority.

Or, to switch out the Wikipedia phrase: "If Holling said it was so, it is so."

I agree that we can debate about the implications of Panarchy, but if a founder of Panarchy defines it as the antithesis of all hierarchy, then Freedo can't say "no." Well, he can, but his statement will hold no ground.

I agree that it can't hold any ground, at least not without expounding on why it's just "no."
Korashk
Posts: 4,597
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5/18/2010 1:11:31 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
"Youre wrong. Richard Dawkins says that not all biological life necessarily needs oxygen and carbon to survive." that's a valid argument. Would you exclaim "Appeal to authority" in this case?

That is an appeal to authority, not a valid argument.
When large numbers of otherwise-law abiding people break specific laws en masse, it's usually a fault that lies with the law. - Unknown
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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5/18/2010 1:23:12 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
You guys all fail horribly at formal and informal logic!

"Since we cannot have expert knowledge of many subjects, we often rely on the judgments of those who do. There is no fallacy involved in simply arguing that the assertion made by an authority is true." - Wikipedia
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
Volkov
Posts: 9,765
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5/18/2010 1:26:00 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/18/2010 1:23:12 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
You guys all fail horribly at formal and informal logic!

"Since we cannot have expert knowledge of many subjects, we often rely on the judgments of those who do. There is no fallacy involved in simply arguing that the assertion made by an authority is true." - Wikipedia

No, there is no fallacy involved in saying that the assertion by an authority is true, or at the very evidence showing of truth or fact. No one disputes that.

But if you say, Holling said this so it's right, that's a little different.
Korashk
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5/18/2010 1:32:22 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/18/2010 1:23:12 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
You guys all fail horribly at formal and informal logic!

"Since we cannot have expert knowledge of many subjects, we often rely on the judgments of those who do. There is no fallacy involved in simply arguing that the assertion made by an authority is true." - Wikipedia

Ahh, that makes more sense. Honestly though, why not just cite some research instead of saying that some guy said it. We're using the internet, while you may not be an expert you have direct access to the information that made them experts.
When large numbers of otherwise-law abiding people break specific laws en masse, it's usually a fault that lies with the law. - Unknown
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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5/18/2010 1:45:58 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/18/2010 1:32:22 PM, Korashk wrote:
At 5/18/2010 1:23:12 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
You guys all fail horribly at formal and informal logic!

"Since we cannot have expert knowledge of many subjects, we often rely on the judgments of those who do. There is no fallacy involved in simply arguing that the assertion made by an authority is true." - Wikipedia

Ahh, that makes more sense. Honestly though, why not just cite some research instead of saying that some guy said it. We're using the internet, while you may not be an expert you have direct access to the information that made them experts.

Typing on my iPod. Can't post links, sorry. At least not right now.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
Korashk
Posts: 4,597
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5/18/2010 1:49:27 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
The correct term is "won't." You can.
When large numbers of otherwise-law abiding people break specific laws en masse, it's usually a fault that lies with the law. - Unknown
GeoLaureate8
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5/18/2010 1:53:26 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/18/2010 1:49:27 PM, Korashk wrote:
The correct term is "won't." You can.

Actually, my iPod is not capable of creating hyperlinks. I could tediously type out the web address of a source, but you wouldn't be able to click it because it wouldn't create a hyperlink.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
Korashk
Posts: 4,597
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5/18/2010 1:55:24 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/18/2010 1:53:26 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 5/18/2010 1:49:27 PM, Korashk wrote:
The correct term is "won't." You can.

Actually, my iPod is not capable of creating hyperlinks. I could tediously type out the web address of a source, but you wouldn't be able to click it because it wouldn't create a hyperlink.

Internet + iPod means iPod Touch, iPhone, or iPad. Am I correct?
When large numbers of otherwise-law abiding people break specific laws en masse, it's usually a fault that lies with the law. - Unknown
Korashk
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5/18/2010 4:09:16 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Whatever, it's been a while. If you're on one of those three mobile devices you can just copy/paste the link address into the text entry boxes on this website. The "http://" automatically makes the following text into a link. See:

htts://nothing.lol...
When large numbers of otherwise-law abiding people break specific laws en masse, it's usually a fault that lies with the law. - Unknown
Korashk
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5/18/2010 4:20:59 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/18/2010 12:25:44 PM, Volkov wrote:
At 5/18/2010 12:23:02 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
Holling is one of the founders of Panarchism and defined it as such. So I think what he says is Panarchy is what it is.

Appeal to authority.

Had to point it out, sorry.

This topic died right hurr ^^
When large numbers of otherwise-law abiding people break specific laws en masse, it's usually a fault that lies with the law. - Unknown
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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5/18/2010 4:58:04 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/18/2010 4:15:23 PM, FREEDO wrote:
Anyway, lets get back to the subject.

You didnt respond to my post addressing the topic.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
wjmelements
Posts: 8,206
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5/20/2010 7:07:39 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/18/2010 4:58:04 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 5/18/2010 4:15:23 PM, FREEDO wrote:
Anyway, lets get back to the subject.

You didnt respond to my post addressing the topic.

Or mine.
in the blink of an eye you finally see the light