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Right to suicide

innomen
Posts: 10,052
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5/19/2010 12:30:54 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Do people have the right to kill themselves? I have known people that have had family members that have killed themselves and it's a horrible thing in their lives. I have heard it referred to as a permanent solution to a temporary problem.

Having said that, i believe there is nothing more fundamentally owned than one's life, and if the decision is made to end it, it should not be illegal. I don't qualify that as an end of life issue, but rather an individual right left open ended. If a person is proven to be incompetent for some reason, then like other rights they may need to be removed, but the desire itself is not qualification for an incompetent judgment. There may need to be some age limit on it, as in other rights, and it may need not be deemed a "right", but rather not deemed as an illegal action either.
Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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5/19/2010 12:33:27 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Of course people have the right to kill themselves.

One of my very good friends and a close fraternity brother of mine (my frat's co-ed) committed suicide in November 2008 and it still haunts and upsets me (and others) very strongly to this day. But of course he had the right to make that decision, even if I disagree with it :(
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Volkov
Posts: 9,765
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5/19/2010 12:42:15 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/19/2010 12:35:43 PM, Nags wrote:
As long as they commit suicide on their property.

That seems like a rather arbitrary requirement. What if they can't leave a senior's home or hospital?
Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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5/19/2010 12:44:00 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/19/2010 12:35:43 PM, Nags wrote:
As long as they commit suicide on their property.

And if they don't? What are you gonna do about it? Sue them?
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Volkov
Posts: 9,765
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5/19/2010 12:44:32 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/19/2010 12:44:00 PM, theLwerd wrote:
And if they don't? What are you gonna do about it? Sue them?

Hehe.
Xer
Posts: 7,776
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5/19/2010 12:45:11 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/19/2010 12:42:15 PM, Volkov wrote:
That seems like a rather arbitrary requirement. What if they can't leave a senior's home or hospital?

Are you normally allowed to purposely splatter blood in a senior's home or hospital?
innomen
Posts: 10,052
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5/19/2010 12:45:56 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/19/2010 12:44:00 PM, theLwerd wrote:
At 5/19/2010 12:35:43 PM, Nags wrote:
As long as they commit suicide on their property.

And if they don't? What are you gonna do about it? Sue them?

Currently, I'm pretty sure if you are unsuccessful in your attempt, you are then put in a heavily restrictive "setting" until you are...well i dunno, happy?
Xer
Posts: 7,776
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5/19/2010 12:46:08 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/19/2010 12:44:00 PM, theLwerd wrote:
And if they don't? What are you gonna do about it? Sue them?

If they fail at their suicide, then yes. One may also attempt to stop the potential suicidee before the suicide happens.
Volkov
Posts: 9,765
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5/19/2010 12:47:43 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/19/2010 12:45:11 PM, Nags wrote:
Are you normally allowed to purposely splatter blood in a senior's home or hospital?

I think you're confusing messy, depressive suicide, with end-of-life decisions, which isn't like that at all.
Volkov
Posts: 9,765
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5/19/2010 12:47:59 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/19/2010 12:46:08 PM, Nags wrote:
If they fail at their suicide, then yes. One may also attempt to stop the potential suicidee before the suicide happens.

And if they succeed?
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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5/19/2010 12:49:32 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Yes, people can commit suicide if they want. And if they succeed, there's no way to punish them. I myself plan to commit suicide to avoid an excruciating death.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
Xer
Posts: 7,776
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5/19/2010 12:50:11 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/19/2010 12:47:43 PM, Volkov wrote:
I think you're confusing messy, depressive suicide, with end-of-life decisions, which isn't like that at all.

The thread title says "suicide," not euthanasia.

At 5/19/2010 12:47:59 PM, Volkov wrote:
And if they succeed?

Maybe I get to take their personal possessions, I dunno.
Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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5/19/2010 12:50:32 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Most people who commit suicide are young, and most young people don't own property. What about public property? Hmm. And besides, taking a failed suicide attempt and locking them up for it is criminal because it's using force and involuntary restraint against someone who did not infringe upon the rights of another. Only if the person was TRESPASSING on your property should you be able to go after them; even then the punishment of that type of enslavement isn't really just. Maybe a mandatory therapy session is in order, but I don't think they should be locked up permanently or indefinitely. ESPECIALLY if they are mentally ill, because that'd probably be torture for them. And it's hypocritical to say that one shouldn't be able to take their own life, but that you should be able to torture them.
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Volkov
Posts: 9,765
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5/19/2010 12:50:42 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/19/2010 12:49:32 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
Yes, people can commit suicide if they want. And if they succeed, there's no way to punish them. I myself plan to commit suicide to avoid an excruciating death.

Out of curiosity, exactly which excruciating death do you plan on coming to?
Xer
Posts: 7,776
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5/19/2010 12:51:24 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/19/2010 12:50:42 PM, Volkov wrote:
At 5/19/2010 12:49:32 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
Yes, people can commit suicide if they want. And if they succeed, there's no way to punish them. I myself plan to commit suicide to avoid an excruciating death.

Out of curiosity, exactly which excruciating death do you plan on coming to?

Lol. I was thinking the same thing. Planning on committing suicide is weird in of itself.
Volkov
Posts: 9,765
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5/19/2010 12:51:26 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/19/2010 12:50:11 PM, Nags wrote:
The thread title says "suicide," not euthanasia.

Same thing, you know. Assisted suicide is still suicide.

Maybe I get to take their personal possessions, I dunno.

Ahuh.
InsertNameHere
Posts: 15,699
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5/19/2010 12:51:34 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
I always thought it was funny that suicide is illegal. You can't exactly punish somebody when they're dead. ;) Anyway, with that said, I don't see the problem. I wouldn't recommend suicide as it's a terrible thing, but so what if somebody wants to be foolish and take their own life? There should be support in place for them firstly though. As for euthanasia, I hate to see people suffer... :(
innomen
Posts: 10,052
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5/19/2010 12:54:00 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/19/2010 12:49:32 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
Yes, people can commit suicide if they want. And if they succeed, there's no way to punish them. I myself plan to commit suicide to avoid an excruciating death.

Easy to say when you're young and healthy. My father said that, and in the end he fought to stay alive every day that he was able.
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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5/19/2010 12:54:50 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
I am morally against this, but I will address this from a scientific view.

When people want to kill themselves, we should find out why. How many happy people wish to kill themselves? How many mentally-stable people wish to kill themselves? We should know the answers to these questions. If a person is facing hard times and only wishes to end his life because he has lost hope, while in reality he can easily regain hope, then why should he kill himself instead of getting treated? Unfortunately, we cannot punish dead people, but if someone attempts to commit suicide, we should not let him try again, but treat him. Is it not better to save a possibly valuable and maybe an actual happy person, who has just lost hope due to a weakness? I think we should.

The problem, however, is that there are easy ways of killing oneself, and we cannot do anything to one who has ended his life. I think we should make it illegal just to show that we as humans, as governments, as a civilization, find it wrong and discourage it. This will hopefully make some people think twice before ending their lives.
Xer
Posts: 7,776
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5/19/2010 12:54:57 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/19/2010 12:51:26 PM, Volkov wrote:
At 5/19/2010 12:50:11 PM, Nags wrote:
The thread title says "suicide," not euthanasia.

Same thing, you know. Assisted suicide is still suicide.

Obviously. I thought it was clear suicide was the topic of conversation, not euthanasia or assisted suicide.
Volkov
Posts: 9,765
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5/19/2010 12:55:10 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
As for my actual opinions on the subject... it's kind of hard to really decide, in my opinion. Suicide, assisted or not, isn't something that's exactly a positive thing. Morally I don't think anyone really wants to give acceptance to someone offing themselves. However, realistically, there isn't much you can do, or that you should do, outside of maybe psychiatric help and personal intervention. I don't think you can "legalize" suicide, nor can you criminalize it. And to make suicide a right brings it into those murky legal waters which doesn't really do anything worthwhile.
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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5/19/2010 12:55:25 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/19/2010 12:51:34 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
I always thought it was funny that suicide is illegal. You can't exactly punish somebody when they're dead. ;) Anyway, with that said, I don't see the problem. I wouldn't recommend suicide as it's a terrible thing, but so what if somebody wants to be foolish and take their own life?

You answered your own question. If you know that a person is making a foolish decision, you should care to stop them because they don't know what they're doing.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
Xer
Posts: 7,776
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5/19/2010 12:57:39 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/19/2010 12:50:32 PM, theLwerd wrote:
Most people who commit suicide are young, and most young people don't own property.

So? Not owning property means not having the ability to do what one wants on that private property. Being young doesn't change that.

What about public property? Hmm.

Grr. Public property. Grrrr.

And besides, taking a failed suicide attempt and locking them up for it is criminal because it's using force and involuntary restraint against someone who did not infringe upon the rights of another.

Correct. As long as the person is on private property.

Only if the person was TRESPASSING on your property should you be able to go after them; even then the punishment of that type of enslavement isn't really just. Maybe a mandatory therapy session is in order, but I don't think they should be locked up permanently or indefinitely.

20+ years would be a just punishment. Go kill yourself in jail.

ESPECIALLY if they are mentally ill, because that'd probably be torture for them. And it's hypocritical to say that one shouldn't be able to take their own life, but that you should be able to torture them.

I don't see the hypocrisy. Not allowing one to kill themselves on your property and also torturing that same person isn't hypocritical. It's a punishment.
innomen
Posts: 10,052
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5/19/2010 12:57:41 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/19/2010 12:55:10 PM, Volkov wrote:
As for my actual opinions on the subject... it's kind of hard to really decide, in my opinion. Suicide, assisted or not, isn't something that's exactly a positive thing. Morally I don't think anyone really wants to give acceptance to someone offing themselves. However, realistically, there isn't much you can do, or that you should do, outside of maybe psychiatric help and personal intervention. I don't think you can "legalize" suicide, nor can you criminalize it. And to make suicide a right brings it into those murky legal waters which doesn't really do anything worthwhile.

Are you locked up in Canada for an attempt? Is it illegal in Canada?
InsertNameHere
Posts: 15,699
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5/19/2010 12:58:00 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/19/2010 12:55:25 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 5/19/2010 12:51:34 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
I always thought it was funny that suicide is illegal. You can't exactly punish somebody when they're dead. ;) Anyway, with that said, I don't see the problem. I wouldn't recommend suicide as it's a terrible thing, but so what if somebody wants to be foolish and take their own life?

You answered your own question. If you know that a person is making a foolish decision, you should care to stop them because they don't know what they're doing.

Yea. Those people should be getting support instead of killing themselves. Suicide is the easy way out and obviously you don't get a second chance.
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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5/19/2010 12:59:26 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/19/2010 12:50:42 PM, Volkov wrote:
At 5/19/2010 12:49:32 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
Yes, people can commit suicide if they want. And if they succeed, there's no way to punish them. I myself plan to commit suicide to avoid an excruciating death.

Out of curiosity, exactly which excruciating death do you plan on coming to?

Being old and frail with a failing heart, sitting in a hospital with doctors poking organs.

I prefer to consume a cyanide pill or something of that sort to avoid the unnecessary stuff.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
innomen
Posts: 10,052
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5/19/2010 1:01:16 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/19/2010 12:59:26 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 5/19/2010 12:50:42 PM, Volkov wrote:
At 5/19/2010 12:49:32 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
Yes, people can commit suicide if they want. And if they succeed, there's no way to punish them. I myself plan to commit suicide to avoid an excruciating death.

Out of curiosity, exactly which excruciating death do you plan on coming to?

Being old and frail with a failing heart, sitting in a hospital with doctors poking organs.

I prefer to consume a cyanide pill or something of that sort to avoid the unnecessary stuff.

You'll never do that. But you should hang onto this little quote of yours for future reference.
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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5/19/2010 1:02:03 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/19/2010 12:59:26 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 5/19/2010 12:50:42 PM, Volkov wrote:
At 5/19/2010 12:49:32 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
Yes, people can commit suicide if they want. And if they succeed, there's no way to punish them. I myself plan to commit suicide to avoid an excruciating death.

Out of curiosity, exactly which excruciating death do you plan on coming to?

Being old and frail with a failing heart, sitting in a hospital with doctors poking organs.

I prefer to consume a cyanide pill or something of that sort to avoid the unnecessary stuff.

I'd be prepared to endure quite a bit of suffering, but there are limits, so this has crossed my mind. I certainly would not tolerate my children looking after me for many years of illness, sacrificing their lives for one that was at it's twlight.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.