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Join the Palestinian Support Demo

brian_eggleston
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6/2/2010 4:23:02 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
Emergency National Demonstration Saturday 5th June

END THE SIEGE OF GAZA

FREEDOM FOR PALESTINE

The world has looked on aghast as more and more details emerge of the violent attack by the Israeli Government on the unarmed flotilla of boats carrying essential medical supplies to the besieged people of Gaza. Tens of people have been killed and or injured.

Those who survived the brutal attack have been illegally imprisoned, without access to legal representatives.

To show our outrage at the brutal and illegal actions of the Israeli Government, Palestinian Support Campaign along with CND, Stop the War, British Muslim Initiative and Viva Palestina have called an emergency demonstration on Saturday 5th June.

The march will start from Downing Street at 1.30 pm and head to the Israeli Embassy in Kensington where there will be a rally.

We are asking all members and supporters to come to this demonstration and show the Israeli Government that the people of UK will not tolerate their brutality any longer.

http://palestinecampaign.org...

If you would like to join me on this demonstration, please feel free to PM me.
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brian_eggleston
Posts: 3,347
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6/2/2010 7:23:21 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/2/2010 7:04:23 AM, feverish wrote:
I'm much too busy/lazy/selfish/hypocritical to attend but you have my support Brian.

Have a great day!

Thank you!
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Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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6/2/2010 9:30:12 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
I would but I can't!
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
brian_eggleston
Posts: 3,347
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6/2/2010 10:11:58 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/2/2010 9:30:12 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
I would but I can't!

That's a pity, both of you.

In an effort to change your minds, if you want to get involved in a bit of action no doubt there will be a counter-demonstration from militant Zionists and other pro-Israel extremists who will be intent on causing trouble.

It usually kicks off when they spit and shout "terrorists" at the passing protesters - many of whom will actually be pacifists from CND and Stop the War Coalition.

Naturally, most people are outraged at being referred to as a terrorist and react accordingly.

Sadly, the predominantly right-wing media in this country usually only covers the pro-Palestinian protesters' response, so look out for headlines such as:

TERROR SUPPORTERS LASH OUT AT JEWS IN FRENZY OF ANTI-SEMITISM

and

MUSLIM FUNDAMENTALIST MARCHERS HURL VERBAL ABUSE AT JEWISH ONLOOKERS
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mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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6/2/2010 10:17:55 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
Brian what do you think of this vid?

I mean I agree that the Palestinians should have better access to aid and whatnot... and that the Israeli control grip is far too strong...

but from how this appears they didn't go in their with the intent to kill people at all...

but rather went to lengths to avoid it.

This dude gets beat with a metal rod several times and stabbed all without turning his rifle on the guys.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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6/2/2010 10:21:40 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
watch the guy who lands he immediately gets hit with a pole, and then when the cam pans around he gets hit another couple times and stabbed HARD
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
brian_eggleston
Posts: 3,347
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6/2/2010 10:24:38 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
They were illegally boarded in international waters.

You cannot say the aid workers had no right to resist - they did because the Israeli Navy undertook an act of piracy - albeit state-sponsored.

What you are saying, in effect Matt, is that if an armed man breaks into your house at night you have no right to defend yourself.
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mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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6/2/2010 10:30:36 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
Supposedly they had stated their intentions to run the blockade...

I think it was kind of a political set-up.

there was an Israeli (palestinian) Politician lady on-board.

They knew they weren't gonna be allowed in but decided to do it anyways... It would seem for Political activism..

it seems to me to have been set up.

now I'd say that's fine. make a video of the dudes coming to control your aid ship and have the politician lady make a stink.

But don't go and Begin Violence by stabbing the dudes who you're purposefully baiting in... THAT'S asking to get shot.

Also I heard that it was international waters... but I also heard that the Israelis were operating under a certain international law. (I really don't know the law)

But either way stabbing dudes who are cowering beneath blows and trying to run away... Aint cool.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
Volkov
Posts: 9,765
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6/2/2010 10:50:39 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
@ matt,

Of course it was a political set up, but not in the way you're thinking; the entire point of the flotilla was to gather support for more humanitarian aid going to Gaza by braving the Israeli blockade. I'm sure they were aware they would get stopped but I don't think there was any plan to do this.

Anyways, the question of blame is hard to assign here. The flotilla members had a right to reject what was an illegal Israeli invasion into their ships, and legally that's pretty indisputable (unless of course the flotilla ships invited the Israelis on board) thing. But from my perspective of the many videos out there, the Israeli soldiers, as matt said, don't appear to have gone on board with the intent to kill. The members of the flotilla themselves started attacking, and the soldiers did have a right to defend themselves. The second any weapon was raised they had a right.

But either way, this is a huge debacle that makes everyone look bad. Israeli will rightly get scolded, but people will rethink their support for this kind of stupidity from those that call themselves "humanitarians" again.
brian_eggleston
Posts: 3,347
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6/2/2010 10:50:42 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
I agree violence is always regrettable and if the aid workers had gone quietly there would have been no deaths.

However, that does not excuse the Israeli's actions.

What they did was totally illegal, although they justified it by comparing it to the Allies sinking German warships in international waters during WWII.

Personally I find this disgusting. My grandfather was a merchant sea captain during the war and was sunk several times by the German navy whilst bringing supplies from America across the Atlantic. That's what the Allies were fighting against.

A merchant ship from Turkey carrying food and medicines to Gaza was absolutely no threat whatsoever to Israeli shipping.

Shame on the Israeli government for trying to justify this appalling action in this way.

It was sea captains like my grandfather that supplied the Russian troops and thus enabled them to free Jews from the concentration camps. What an insult to their memories.
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InsertNameHere
Posts: 15,699
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6/2/2010 11:13:26 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
Considering they found weapons aboard the ships I somehow had trouble trusting their intentions. One could easily say that they were trying to ship weapons to Hamas. Regardless, the aid still got to Gaza and Israel let it through so I suppose it couldn't have been that bad. I know Israel likely would have not let it through if it was just a bunch of weapons.
feverish
Posts: 2,716
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6/2/2010 11:21:56 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/2/2010 11:13:26 AM, InsertNameHere wrote:
Considering they found weapons aboard the ships I somehow had trouble trusting their intentions. One could easily say that they were trying to ship weapons to Hamas. Regardless, the aid still got to Gaza and Israel let it through so I suppose it couldn't have been that bad. I know Israel likely would have not let it through if it was just a bunch of weapons.

Here are some pictures of the "weapons" recovered from the ship.
http://idfspokesperson.com...

Bear in mind that these images come from the Israel Defence Force themselves and consist of the kind of arsenal you would get from raiding a couple of domestic kitchens and a tool shed.
InsertNameHere
Posts: 15,699
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6/2/2010 11:29:48 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/2/2010 11:21:56 AM, feverish wrote:
At 6/2/2010 11:13:26 AM, InsertNameHere wrote:
Considering they found weapons aboard the ships I somehow had trouble trusting their intentions. One could easily say that they were trying to ship weapons to Hamas. Regardless, the aid still got to Gaza and Israel let it through so I suppose it couldn't have been that bad. I know Israel likely would have not let it through if it was just a bunch of weapons.

Here are some pictures of the "weapons" recovered from the ship.
http://idfspokesperson.com...

Bear in mind that these images come from the Israel Defence Force themselves and consist of the kind of arsenal you would get from raiding a couple of domestic kitchens and a tool shed.

Yea, I have seen that and naturally those kinds of things would get Israel on alert, but they still allowed the aid to get to Gaza so like I said it couldn't have been that bad. They were likely just kitchen knives for the Gazans to use.
feverish
Posts: 2,716
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6/2/2010 11:45:47 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/2/2010 11:29:48 AM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 6/2/2010 11:21:56 AM, feverish wrote:
At 6/2/2010 11:13:26 AM, InsertNameHere wrote:
Considering they found weapons aboard the ships I somehow had trouble trusting their intentions. One could easily say that they were trying to ship weapons to Hamas. Regardless, the aid still got to Gaza and Israel let it through so I suppose it couldn't have been that bad. I know Israel likely would have not let it through if it was just a bunch of weapons.

Here are some pictures of the "weapons" recovered from the ship.
http://idfspokesperson.com...

Bear in mind that these images come from the Israel Defence Force themselves and consist of the kind of arsenal you would get from raiding a couple of domestic kitchens and a tool shed.

Yea, I have seen that and naturally those kinds of things would get Israel on alert, but they still allowed the aid to get to Gaza so like I said it couldn't have been that bad. They were likely just kitchen knives for the Gazans to use.

Seriously? The militant arm of Hamas and other Palestinian resistance groups are fighting against one of the best equipped armies in the world. They use RPGs, automatic rifles and powerful explosives strapped to their body, not wooden sticks, screwdrivers and the kind of 4 inch kitchen knives I let my little girl use to chop up vegetables.

This stash can not be considered as "smuggled weapons" for terrorist groups, it's stuff you could probably find on most large ocean going ships.
InsertNameHere
Posts: 15,699
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6/2/2010 11:53:57 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/2/2010 11:45:47 AM, feverish wrote:
At 6/2/2010 11:29:48 AM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 6/2/2010 11:21:56 AM, feverish wrote:
At 6/2/2010 11:13:26 AM, InsertNameHere wrote:
Considering they found weapons aboard the ships I somehow had trouble trusting their intentions. One could easily say that they were trying to ship weapons to Hamas. Regardless, the aid still got to Gaza and Israel let it through so I suppose it couldn't have been that bad. I know Israel likely would have not let it through if it was just a bunch of weapons.

Here are some pictures of the "weapons" recovered from the ship.
http://idfspokesperson.com...

Bear in mind that these images come from the Israel Defence Force themselves and consist of the kind of arsenal you would get from raiding a couple of domestic kitchens and a tool shed.

Yea, I have seen that and naturally those kinds of things would get Israel on alert, but they still allowed the aid to get to Gaza so like I said it couldn't have been that bad. They were likely just kitchen knives for the Gazans to use.

Seriously? The militant arm of Hamas and other Palestinian resistance groups are fighting against one of the best equipped armies in the world. They use RPGs, automatic rifles and powerful explosives strapped to their body, not wooden sticks, screwdrivers and the kind of 4 inch kitchen knives I let my little girl use to chop up vegetables.

This stash can not be considered as "smuggled weapons" for terrorist groups, it's stuff you could probably find on most large ocean going ships.

I have seen both sides, having at one point been very Pro-Palestine myself and I can guarantee that Israel is the least of their problems. Hamas is the real oppressor, promoting a nationalist Islamic supremacist agenda. Yes, Israel is doing some things I don't necessarily agree with, but when Hamas is trying to completely destroy them I can have some sympathy for the way that they act. Also, many of the deaths caused by the IDF are unintentional. People are going to die in conflict. It's a fact.
vivalayeo
Posts: 142
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6/5/2010 8:43:20 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/2/2010 10:24:38 AM, brian_eggleston wrote:
They were illegally boarded in international waters.

You cannot say the aid workers had no right to resist - they did because the Israeli Navy undertook an act of piracy - albeit state-sponsored.

What you are saying, in effect Matt, is that if an armed man breaks into your house at night you have no right to defend yourself.

Haha! I love it when people spurt out this stuff and don't even realise what they are saying. Priceless!

Firstly, what the Israeli's did was perfectly legal. Tell you what pal, look up Maritime Law and you will see that a country has the right to board/capture/destroy any ship that has the intention of or does breach a naval blockade. They denied Israeli compromises and were adamant that they were going to break the blockade. The Israeli's actions are legitimate on legal grounds.

On moral grounds it hard to distinguish what happened on deck, but yes, 9 people were killed. A tragedy. However, why were there no other casualities on the other ships? Because the activist's complied with Israeli demands. The activist's that acted violently against the Israeli Commando's brought it unfortunately, upon themselves, and you can't dispute that.

Also this wasn't an act of Piracy because the Israeli's moved the good's on, like they said they would. Pirate usually hold ship's for ransom (which the IDF didn't) steal the cargo (which the IDF didn't) hold prisoner's for ransom (which the IDF didn't) kill people who offer no resistance (which the IDF didn't) board the ship on rope swings waving sword's and shouting 'Yarr' (which the IDF didn't). So you can see, that your piracy claim is ludacris. Although to be fair, people spurted that stuff out on the new's, I guess you just like reiterating everything the BBC tell you.

Also in the UK it is illegal to defend yourself in your own home (stupid right?) but by the same comparison if the police want into your home because they believe you have a stash of drug's and you offer violent resistance and wrestle a gun of them, or threaten them with knives or bat's likelyhood is your going to be shot by them lol.

So eh, do your research pal before you spurt out crap like that again

P.S. Why would activist's want to defend themselve's against a legitmate army? Isn't getting the goods to Gaza more important than their own pride? Hmmm publicity stunt :o!