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Libertarians and government???

comoncents
Posts: 5,647
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6/5/2010 3:01:17 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Libertarians seem to hate big government and blames it for many faults that are happening today, but government does gets stuff right sometimes.

If government gets it right, 4 out of 10 times, is it not worth evaluating what government wants to do on a point by point bases instead of just writing off anything the government is involved with?
Xer
Posts: 7,776
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6/5/2010 3:06:50 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/5/2010 3:01:17 PM, comoncents wrote:
Libertarians seem to hate big government and blames it for many faults that are happening today, but government does gets stuff right sometimes.

Like what?

If government gets it right, 4 out of 10 times, is it not worth evaluating what government wants to do on a point by point bases instead of just writing off anything the government is involved with?

I can't even understand the question you're asking, but do you mind expounding on what the government gets right 4 out of 10 times?
comoncents
Posts: 5,647
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6/5/2010 3:15:21 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Some would think,

pubic roads
landing on the moon
civil rights
women rights
police
military
libraries
expand exploration to the west

I am sure there are more. I just cannot think of many; if you allow the liberal leaning ddo members a day or two, I am sure they can accommodate you or at least bring some topics up for debate.
Xer
Posts: 7,776
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6/5/2010 4:52:05 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/5/2010 3:15:21 PM, comoncents wrote:
pubic roads

Private roads are better. A monopoly (public roads) isn't something to brag about.

landing on the moon

So? A useless accomplishment if you ask me. Private companies are capable of reaching the moon as well.

civil rights
women rights

Everyone would have had equal rights if it weren't for the government in the first place. The government gave women and minorities limited rights to begin with.

police
military

These are a couple of the few things I moderately like that government does. Although they suck at it.

libraries

Private libraries are better.

expand exploration to the west

Private companies would and could have done this.
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
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6/5/2010 5:13:52 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/5/2010 3:01:17 PM, comoncents wrote:
is it not worth evaluating what government wants to do on a point by point bases
Certainly. Is it initiating force? If yes do not pass go do not collect 200 dollars go to ash heap of history immediately. Is it not? Then it is permissible, look further to decide whether it gets desired results as well.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
FREEDO
Posts: 21,057
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6/5/2010 7:25:16 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/5/2010 3:15:21 PM, comoncents wrote:
Some would think,

pubic roads
landing on the moon
civil rights
women rights
police
military
libraries
expand exploration to the west

I am sure there are more. I just cannot think of many; if you allow the liberal leaning ddo members a day or two, I am sure they can accommodate you or at least bring some topics up for debate.

Government is not needed for any of those things.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
Volkov
Posts: 9,765
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6/5/2010 8:05:27 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/5/2010 7:25:16 PM, FREEDO wrote:
Government is not needed for any of those things.

One would think "public roads" is something that needs the government to be apart of, since, you know, it's public.
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
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6/5/2010 8:29:14 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/5/2010 8:05:27 PM, Volkov wrote:
At 6/5/2010 7:25:16 PM, FREEDO wrote:
Government is not needed for any of those things.

One would think "public roads" is something that needs the government to be apart of, since, you know, it's public.

True enough. One drives on the road part though, not the public part.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
Reasoning
Posts: 4,456
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6/5/2010 9:19:41 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/5/2010 8:05:27 PM, Volkov wrote:
One would think "public roads" is something that needs the government to be apart of, since, you know, it's public.

One would think wrongly.
"What we really ought to ask the liberal, before we even begin addressing his agenda, is this: In what kind of society would he be a conservative?" - Joseph Sobran
Rob1Billion
Posts: 1,338
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6/5/2010 10:14:22 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Nags: the sh11 you say never ceases to amaze me. putting a man on the moon was a useless endeavor. the space program returns between $6 to $20 for each $1 spent on it, in returns on the innovations made from space technology. in a way, reaching out into space is the most significant thing humanity can accomplish. besides, the way its looking, you are going to get your wish: space travel is poised to becoming 100% commercial in the future, while nasa concentrates on deep space.
Master P is the end result of capitalism.
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
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6/5/2010 10:17:02 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/5/2010 9:19:41 PM, Reasoning wrote:
At 6/5/2010 8:05:27 PM, Volkov wrote:
One would think "public roads" is something that needs the government to be apart of, since, you know, it's public.

One would think wrongly.

Who else can steal enough money for a road from the entire public?

The entire public sure isn't gonna volunteer.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
comoncents
Posts: 5,647
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6/5/2010 10:30:21 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Is there anything that you liberals can come up with. Come on. What do you like about government. You guys love/like government so they have to have done something right. WHAT!
I-am-a-panda
Posts: 15,380
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6/6/2010 3:04:08 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/5/2010 4:52:05 PM, Nags wrote:
At 6/5/2010 3:15:21 PM, comoncents wrote:
pubic roads

Private roads are better. A monopoly (public roads) isn't something to brag about.

Company A owns road A. Company B owns road B. However, road A intersects with road B, but technically Company A owns the intersection, disallowing road B drivers from using the intersection.

Oh, got to love the free market.


landing on the moon

So? A useless accomplishment if you ask me. Private companies are capable of reaching the moon as well.

See what Rob1Billion said. Also, private companies wouldn't be able to gain the capital to do so.


civil rights
women rights

Everyone would have had equal rights if it weren't for the government in the first place. The government gave women and minorities limited rights to begin with.

Actually, society suppressed minorities more than the government did. Even when equality laws were put in place minorities were still discriminated against. So saying an absence of government would solve this is actually false.


police
military

These are a couple of the few things I moderately like that government does. Although they suck at it.

Meh, more -less agreed.


libraries

Private libraries are better.

But unavailable to the majority, and thus cannot be educated. This is why public libraries pwn.


expand exploration to the west

Private companies would and could have done this.

Meh, debatable. Don't know enough about American history though.
Pizza. I have enormous respect for Pizza.
I-am-a-panda
Posts: 15,380
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6/6/2010 3:05:12 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/5/2010 10:30:21 PM, comoncents wrote:
Is there anything that you liberals can come up with. Come on. What do you like about government. You guys love/like government so they have to have done something right. WHAT!

Public transport.
Pizza. I have enormous respect for Pizza.
Xer
Posts: 7,776
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6/6/2010 10:37:35 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/5/2010 10:14:22 PM, Rob1Billion wrote:
Nags: the sh11 you say never ceases to amaze me. putting a man on the moon was a useless endeavor. the space program returns between $6 to $20 for each $1 spent on it

Source? Regardless, if the space program is so profitable, as you claim, then it should be able to exist as a private corporation.

in returns on the innovations made from space technology. in a way, reaching out into space is the most significant thing humanity can accomplish. besides, the way its looking, you are going to get your wish: space travel is poised to becoming 100% commercial in the future, while nasa concentrates on deep space.

..yawn.. Nothing to refute here.
Xer
Posts: 7,776
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6/6/2010 10:42:45 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/6/2010 3:04:08 AM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
Company A owns road A. Company B owns road B. However, road A intersects with road B, but technically Company A owns the intersection, disallowing road B drivers from using the intersection.

Oh, got to love the free market.

Company A loses money. Company A ceases to exist. Oh, got to love the free market.

See what Rob1Billion said.

I refuted Rob.

Also, private companies wouldn't be able to gain the capital to do so.

A bunch of private space tourism companies already exist. And fyi, private companies don't jump into endeavors of which they can not fund. Because, oh I dunno, there is no profit.

Actually, society suppressed minorities more than the government did.

False.

Even when equality laws were put in place minorities were still discriminated against. So saying an absence of government would solve this is actually false.

Discrimination is solved by the free market. I posted this on Freeman's profile before:

Let's assume Person X owns a house. Person X can choose to allow white people in his/her house, and Person X can also choose to not allow black people in his/her house. Pretty simple, right? Houses are private property, just like businesses. Imagine is the government forced Person X to allow black people in his/her house. You would then see that government regulations on racism is nonsensical. Owners of houses (private property) are free to discriminate, owners of businesses (private property) should be allowed to do the same.

Businesses should be allowed to be racist, but the free market will crush them. If some businesses don't allow minorities to do business with them, then those businesses will fail, or at least seriously suffer. Other businesses, who are not racist, will pick up these minority consumers, and will pick up the economic rewards.

If some businesses refuse to hire minorities, then those businesses will fail, or at least seriously suffer. Other businesses, who are not racist, will hire these minority employees, and will pick up the financial rewards.

Let's assume for a second that the the majority of the consumers of a store are white and racist, but the owner of the store is not racist. These white consumers would refuse to shop at this store if blacks are employed or allowed to shop at this store, so the owner is basically forced to not employ or allow minorities to shop at the store. In this case, the consumers will pay the racist fee. The owner will be forced to raise prices, and these white consumers will pay more for the same products they would otherwise receive for a lesser price.

Government institutionalized racism (ie. Jim Crow Laws) are government laws. Libertarians are opposed to this government sponsored racism. Libertarians are also opposed to governments telling private property who and who not to sell to. Government is the problem, not the cure.

Meh, more -less agreed.

K.

But unavailable to the majority, and thus cannot be educated. This is why public libraries pwn.

Rolls Royces and personal jets are also unavailable to the majority. Should the government provide public Rolls Royces and personal jets?

Meh, debatable. Don't know enough about American history though.

K.
wjmelements
Posts: 8,206
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6/6/2010 3:40:12 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/5/2010 10:14:22 PM, Rob1Billion wrote:
the space program returns between $6 to $20 for each $1 spent on it, in returns on the innovations made from space technology. in a way, reaching out into space is the most significant thing humanity can accomplish. besides, the way its looking, you are going to get your wish:

Then turn NASA into a private corporation that you can invest in. Profits++;

space travel is poised to becoming 100% commercial in the future, while nasa concentrates on deep space.

Deep space exploration is virtually useless at the moment. We can't even keep a man in space for a year without permanent disabilities. First thing is first.
in the blink of an eye you finally see the light
Reasoning
Posts: 4,456
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6/6/2010 3:49:26 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/5/2010 10:17:02 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
Who else can steal enough money for a road from the entire public?

The entire public sure isn't gonna volunteer.

Public: Maintained for or used by the people or community.[1]

[1] http://www.thefreedictionary.com...
"What we really ought to ask the liberal, before we even begin addressing his agenda, is this: In what kind of society would he be a conservative?" - Joseph Sobran
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
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6/6/2010 4:06:03 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/6/2010 3:49:26 PM, Reasoning wrote:
At 6/5/2010 10:17:02 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
Who else can steal enough money for a road from the entire public?

The entire public sure isn't gonna volunteer.

Public: Maintained for or used by the people or community.[1]

[1] http://www.thefreedictionary.com...
And you intend to get the community (not some constituent parts of them, the entire community) to do that how without a government?
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
Rob1Billion
Posts: 1,338
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6/6/2010 5:10:14 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/6/2010 3:40:12 PM, wjmelements wrote:
At 6/5/2010 10:14:22 PM, Rob1Billion wrote:
the space program returns between $6 to $20 for each $1 spent on it, in returns on the innovations made from space technology. in a way, reaching out into space is the most significant thing humanity can accomplish. besides, the way its looking, you are going to get your wish:

Then turn NASA into a private corporation that you can invest in. Profits++;

Profits will mangle the missions from the inside out... I'd rather have people that are looking for advancing our knowledge of space running NASA rather than scumbag profiteers. Businessmen and politicians should be kept the hell away from NASA.

space travel is poised to becoming 100% commercial in the future, while nasa concentrates on deep space.

Deep space exploration is virtually useless at the moment. We can't even keep a man in space for a year without permanent disabilities. First thing is first.

I wouldn't wait when genetic engineering and robotics are making the strides forward they are. We can bring the universe to us easier than bringing us to the universe.
Master P is the end result of capitalism.
Sam_Lowry
Posts: 367
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6/7/2010 12:30:59 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/6/2010 5:10:14 PM, Rob1Billion wrote:

Profits will mangle the missions from the inside out... I'd rather have people that are looking for advancing our knowledge of space running NASA rather than scumbag profiteers. Businessmen and politicians should be kept the hell away from NASA.

Please stop defending NASA. I'm all for government investing in technology, but NASA is one of the worst examples you could possibly cite.

http://gnews.com...
Rob1Billion
Posts: 1,338
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6/7/2010 10:55:40 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/7/2010 12:30:59 AM, Sam_Lowry wrote:
At 6/6/2010 5:10:14 PM, Rob1Billion wrote:

Profits will mangle the missions from the inside out... I'd rather have people that are looking for advancing our knowledge of space running NASA rather than scumbag profiteers. Businessmen and politicians should be kept the hell away from NASA.


Please stop defending NASA. I'm all for government investing in technology, but NASA is one of the worst examples you could possibly cite.

http://gnews.com...

We're talking about the space program...
Master P is the end result of capitalism.
mongeese
Posts: 5,387
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6/7/2010 11:53:44 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/6/2010 5:10:14 PM, Rob1Billion wrote:
At 6/6/2010 3:40:12 PM, wjmelements wrote:
At 6/5/2010 10:14:22 PM, Rob1Billion wrote:
the space program returns between $6 to $20 for each $1 spent on it, in returns on the innovations made from space technology. in a way, reaching out into space is the most significant thing humanity can accomplish. besides, the way its looking, you are going to get your wish:

Then turn NASA into a private corporation that you can invest in. Profits++;

Profits will mangle the missions from the inside out... I'd rather have people that are looking for advancing our knowledge of space running NASA rather than scumbag profiteers. Businessmen and politicians should be kept the hell away from NASA.

Ah, but with neither businessmen nor politicians, where does the funding of NASA come from?

space travel is poised to becoming 100% commercial in the future, while nasa concentrates on deep space.

Deep space exploration is virtually useless at the moment. We can't even keep a man in space for a year without permanent disabilities. First thing is first.

I wouldn't wait when genetic engineering and robotics are making the strides forward they are. We can bring the universe to us easier than bringing us to the universe.

Then spend what you want on deep-space exploration. Why should we be dragged in with you?