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The Red and Black Cafe

Reasoning
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6/7/2010 3:02:11 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
The Red and Black Cafe is a vegan, worker-owned, collectively managed cafe that caters to radicals such as anarchists and animal rights activists. It is affiliated with the IWW and is located in Portland, Oregon. (See video 1)

Recently, the Red and Black has been under fire for kicking a cop out of the cafe. (See video 2)

The collective stands by its decision and intends to do the same should this situation ever occur again.

What are your thoughts? Was it the right thing to do? Did they have the right to do it? Any other observations are also welcome, including thoughts on collective management.
"What we really ought to ask the liberal, before we even begin addressing his agenda, is this: In what kind of society would he be a conservative?" - Joseph Sobran
Volkov
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6/7/2010 3:08:14 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Bunch of freakin' hippies.

In seriousness, I can see why they would want to kick out the cop, but I don't think it was a good decision. It gives some unwanted attention, and doesn't give a good impression. If the cop just wanted a meal or a drink or whatever, came in peacefully, didn't do anything wrong, why kick her out? What kind of message are you trying to send - that only certain people can come in? That someone who maybe respects what you do, but is something you don't like, is now undesirable? It's silly.
Xer
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6/7/2010 3:21:07 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Wait. So it's A-OKAY to kick out a police officer from a restaurant for no reason whatsoever. BUT it's illegal to kick out a person of a different race from a restaurant?

On a side note, I'm surprised the cafe hasn't been shut down yet. The police don't take sh1t from anyone. I was expecting the owner to be tasered or something.
I-am-a-panda
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6/7/2010 3:37:21 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Seriously, why turn down prospective customers and improved relations with the people protecting you? He wasn't harming anyone, and was in fact striking up conversation with a woman who seems to be a regular. All I can s is that shop is screwed if they get robbed.

"Oh, there's an armed robbery at the red and black cafe...yeah, uh, we're washing our hair, and I'm sure there's some kittens stuck in some trees, so we'll get round to that"
Pizza. I have enormous respect for Pizza.
Ragnar_Rahl
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6/7/2010 3:45:28 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Was the cop pursuing someone who had initiated force and was being sheltered by the cafe? If not, it should be perfectly legal for these corporate ( or "collective") owners to kick customers they do not want out.

It may or may not be good tactics, as someone who is not in any way an ally of the IWW I have no reason to advis them on such tactics or think on them much.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
Reasoning
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6/7/2010 5:28:03 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/7/2010 3:21:07 PM, Nags wrote:
Wait. So it's A-OKAY to kick out a police officer from a restaurant for no reason whatsoever. BUT it's illegal to kick out a person of a different race from a restaurant?

I believe that is correct.

On a side note, I'm surprised the cafe hasn't been shut down yet. The police don't take sh1t from anyone. I was expecting the owner to be tasered or something.

There is no "owner". Everyone that works in the cafe is a worker-owner.
"What we really ought to ask the liberal, before we even begin addressing his agenda, is this: In what kind of society would he be a conservative?" - Joseph Sobran
Ragnar_Rahl
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6/7/2010 5:31:36 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/7/2010 5:28:03 PM, Reasoning wrote:

On a side note, I'm surprised the cafe hasn't been shut down yet. The police don't take sh1t from anyone. I was expecting the owner to be tasered or something.

There is no "owner". Everyone that works in the cafe is a worker-owner.
Do they democratically vote on every issue or just on a manager?
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
Reasoning
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6/7/2010 6:28:46 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/7/2010 5:31:36 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
Do they democratically vote on every issue or just on a manager?

I am unsure of the specifics, sorry.
"What we really ought to ask the liberal, before we even begin addressing his agenda, is this: In what kind of society would he be a conservative?" - Joseph Sobran
comoncents
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6/7/2010 6:35:30 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
It is their business. Why not let them kick him out, or ask nicely to leave.

All they did was stop cops and people that love cops from coming in. It could tank the business once word gets out. Let the market decide.
Rob1Billion
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6/7/2010 7:05:09 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Although it didn't look like he was about to say anything intelligent, the news station did a terrible job getting the manager's POV. Several minutes for one side and 6 seconds for the other? We don't even raise an eyebrow to this type of shotty journalism anymore; we just accept it.
Master P is the end result of capitalism.
mattrodstrom
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6/8/2010 7:49:00 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
I think it's ok.

The cop may've just been normally going about their civilian life... BUT in so doing they're still a cop. IF they see something illegal they still can pull out their badge and make an arrest... write it up.. w/e

NOW lets say that the owners of the establishment don't care if people smoke cigarrettes inside... or even Marijuana..... They could get in big trouble if a cop were to notice that

Further... I know in NYC at least the police have a long (and also recent) history of trying to infiltrate seemingly anarchist groups and goad them into doing/saying stuff that might get them arrested.

I can kind of see why such a place wouldn't want cops on their property without a warrant.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
mattrodstrom
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6/8/2010 7:56:07 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/8/2010 7:49:00 AM, mattrodstrom wrote:
Further... I know in NYC at least the police have a long (and also recent) history of trying to infiltrate seemingly anarchist groups and goad them into doing/saying stuff that might get them arrested.

http://www.nytimes.com...
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
Reasoning
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6/8/2010 2:17:22 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Apparently all the workers are co-managers, Ragnar. What this means in practice, I don't know.

"Quick rundown for those who don't know: the Red and Black Cafe is a worker-owned collective. This means that all workers are co-managers and co-owners of the business. And since we've been open for nearly a decade, we'd say we're doing pretty well. Also, this just in: Haterade tastes delightful when chased with dutch brothers coffee." - Red and Black Facebook Fan Page
"What we really ought to ask the liberal, before we even begin addressing his agenda, is this: In what kind of society would he be a conservative?" - Joseph Sobran
Danielle
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6/8/2010 2:23:05 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/7/2010 3:21:07 PM, Nags wrote:
Wait. So it's A-OKAY to kick out a police officer from a restaurant for no reason whatsoever. BUT it's illegal to kick out a person of a different race from a restaurant?

Yes. A lot of people aren't protected under the Civil Rights Act (I'm not saying they should be -- just pointing it out). I can get kicked out of a restaurant for being a lesbian. The ONLY things it adheres to is discrimination based on race, ethnicity gender or religion. This just goes to show you that our laws are stupid considering sex and gender are different; I can be masculine (in terms of gender identity) but be female in terms of sex. The laws can't even define things properly let alone try to mandate "fairness." One can be kicked out for being a Republican, for wearing a shirt the owner doesn't like, etc.

On a side note, I'm surprised the cafe hasn't been shut down yet. The police don't take sh1t from anyone. I was expecting the owner to be tasered or something.

Ew, po po.
President of DDO
TombLikeBomb
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6/8/2010 7:19:32 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/7/2010 7:05:09 PM, Rob1Billion wrote:
Although it didn't look like he was about to say anything intelligent, the news station did a terrible job getting the manager's POV. Several minutes for one side and 6 seconds for the other? We don't even raise an eyebrow to this type of shotty journalism anymore; we just accept it.

Forgive me for nitpicking, but the intelligence comment seems random. Perhaps you're used to outright genius, but he at least stated a non-trivial truth, which is more than can be said about the other interviewees. The cop couldn't even keep a straight face as he tried the segregation bit, and the other customer's a human being was humiliated begs the world's smallest violin. That human being is paid to humiliate human beings, not merely by declining their business, forcing them to choose between any of the myriad cafes that segregate only indirectly (in their pricing), but by arresting them for breaking the law, little of which anarchists respect and, it being the law of a capitalist state, even less of which collectivist anarchists respect.
From the time of the progressive era with the rise of public schooling through the post-WWII period, capital invaded the time workers had liberated from waged work and shaped it for purposes of social control. Perhaps the most obvious moment of this colonization was the re-incarceration in schools of the young (who were expelled from the factories by child labor laws) such that what might have been free time was structured to convert their life energies into labor power.
Reasoning
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6/8/2010 7:22:32 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/8/2010 7:19:32 PM, TombLikeBomb wrote:
Forgive me for nitpicking, but the intelligence comment seems random. Perhaps you're used to outright genius, but he at least stated a non-trivial truth, which is more than can be said about the other interviewees. The cop couldn't even keep a straight face as he tried the segregation bit, and the other customer's a human being was humiliated begs the world's smallest violin. That human being is paid to humiliate human beings, not merely by declining their business, forcing them to choose between any of the myriad cafes that segregate only indirectly (in their pricing), but by arresting them for breaking the law, little of which anarchists respect and, it being the law of a capitalist state, even less of which collectivist anarchists respect.

This man speaks truth.
"What we really ought to ask the liberal, before we even begin addressing his agenda, is this: In what kind of society would he be a conservative?" - Joseph Sobran
Rob1Billion
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6/8/2010 8:10:10 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/8/2010 7:19:32 PM, TombLikeBomb wrote:
At 6/7/2010 7:05:09 PM, Rob1Billion wrote:
Although it didn't look like he was about to say anything intelligent, the news station did a terrible job getting the manager's POV. Several minutes for one side and 6 seconds for the other? We don't even raise an eyebrow to this type of shotty journalism anymore; we just accept it.

Forgive me for nitpicking, but the intelligence comment seems random. Perhaps you're used to outright genius

You're probably right, I think I was tuning more into how he was saying it more than what he was saying (he was apprehensive during the entire 2.5 seconds of interview time they gave him which is probably not even his fault), and yeah I was hoping he was going to floor me with some cool reason why he hates cops other than just citing racial profiling which is kind of passe and uninteresting... But we do have a real problem with racism in the US; more whites use crack cocaine than blacks in this country (probably not per cap, admittedly) yet more blacks (13x as much) are sent to the pen for it.

I don't take my anger out on the police for this though, I take it out on the politicians. If a policeman is vigorous in his efforts to adhere to drug policy and harasses casual users then yeah, I have no problem with him telling the cop to get the Fvck out of the establishment. At least he's judging him on his actions. But to randomly go up to a person because he is wearing a uniform is pretty messed up to me; that cop could have (for all he knows) been someone who does not racially profile. That cop could have had a black wife, for all he knows. His actions are the epitome of hypocrisy; he used prejudice against a person while accusing him of being prejudice.

If he was given more than a few seconds of air-time, perhaps he would have had comments about seeing that cop around town or something which would change this. We don't know what else he said though, which means its hard to judge anyone in this matter because we have not really heard both sides. It's obvious that the p.o.'d people came to the news station who, before interviewing the owner, had already decided how this story was going to be spun. And yeah the cop had a certain cockiness to him as well which means I am critical of everyone in this piece!

Questionably relevant, but interesting: http://www.msnbc.msn.com...
Master P is the end result of capitalism.
TombLikeBomb
Posts: 639
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6/8/2010 9:18:14 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/8/2010 8:10:10 PM, Rob1Billion wrote:
At 6/8/2010 7:19:32 PM, TombLikeBomb wrote:
At 6/7/2010 7:05:09 PM, Rob1Billion wrote:
Although it didn't look like he was about to say anything intelligent, the news station did a terrible job getting the manager's POV. Several minutes for one side and 6 seconds for the other? We don't even raise an eyebrow to this type of shotty journalism anymore; we just accept it.

Forgive me for nitpicking, but the intelligence comment seems random. Perhaps you're used to outright genius

You're probably right, I think I was tuning more into how he was saying it more than what he was saying (he was apprehensive during the entire 2.5 seconds of interview time they gave him which is probably not even his fault), and yeah I was hoping he was going to floor me with some cool reason why he hates cops other than just citing racial profiling which is kind of passe and uninteresting... But we do have a real problem with racism in the US; more whites use crack cocaine than blacks in this country (probably not per cap, admittedly) yet more blacks (13x as much) are sent to the pen for it.

It sounded like he said "persecuting houseless people", whose equation with racial profiling would itself be an instance of racial profiling.

I don't take my anger out on the police for this though, I take it out on the politicians. If a policeman is vigorous in his efforts to adhere to drug policy and harasses casual users then yeah, I have no problem with him telling the cop to get the Fvck out of the establishment. At least he's judging him on his actions. But to randomly go up to a person because he is wearing a uniform is pretty messed up to me; that cop could have (for all he knows) been someone who does not racially profile. That cop could have had a black wife, for all he knows. His actions are the epitome of hypocrisy; he used prejudice against a person while accusing him of being prejudice.

It would have been hypocritical to have been prejudicial in accusing him of prejudice per se, but it wouldn't have been hypocritical to have been non-racially prejudicial in accusing him of racial prejudice. The color of the cop's uniform is the result of his consenting to enforce the politicians' policies with a minimum vigor that happens to be dangerous to activist anarchists and their associates. Had he broken that contract in a way inconsistent with normal police corruption, he would've lost his job, likely wouldn't have entered the cafe, and in any case wouldn't have been a victim of prejudice.

Thanks for the link, btw, it was interesting.
From the time of the progressive era with the rise of public schooling through the post-WWII period, capital invaded the time workers had liberated from waged work and shaped it for purposes of social control. Perhaps the most obvious moment of this colonization was the re-incarceration in schools of the young (who were expelled from the factories by child labor laws) such that what might have been free time was structured to convert their life energies into labor power.