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The Gay Marriage Debate:

MsTambo
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12/29/2014 3:17:46 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
One of the strongest desires to talk about the GAY MARRIAGE DEBATE, is because I"m not finding much written on this subject from the conservative side being able to adequately defend their side. I"m mostly finding their main focus being SCRIPTURE, that is great for the one who knows God and understands God"s word, but for most, they don"t care what Gods word says, for to them "man wrote it", so who cares?...Thing is according to 2 Peter 1:21 and 2 Tim 3:16, God wrote it through man. So let"s attack this subject in a more objective way, covering all sides. (well, mainly the conservative side as I don"t have enough space or time) Again, I"m all about BALANCE and TRUTH. I"m going to start off with something I said to myself 25 years ago "..

I said in my heart and head"."IF HOMOSEXUALITY IS EVER CONDONED IN AMERICA WHAT"S NEXT?... THE PEDOPHILE CAN ALSO SAY HE TOO CAN"T HELP HIS FEELINGS OF LOVE".HE WAS BORN THAT WAY" and "LOVE IS ALL THAT MATTERS RIGHT?....my predication came TRUE 20 something years later"when the show "LAW and ORDER" in 2009 and 2010, they actually did 2 episodes that echoed exactly what I had predicted years prior, hence a very early understanding of a possible "SLIPPERY SLOPE""

Firstly, let me say something that is really important"THE CHURCH cannot mandate MORALITY to the world, only God can do that, and He does it individually through each person"s heart. The church is NOT called to JUDGE, but to LOVE!....This is what Jesus did"like I said before many times, as one DRAWS CLOSER TO GOD, it is the work of the Holy Spirit to do His work in changing their mind and heart to match His will and desire. My job is to help that person in whatever state they are in to draw closer to God, using firm boundaries, accountability, truth, acceptance, love, respect".NOT BY JUDGING and CONDEMNING THEM. But my LOVE FOR GOD should always supersede my love for man and his laws. Therefore while I think same sex couples should be treated with respect and should have certain rights that would be given to anyone else living together and from what I understand they are given many rights already, not like they have NONE...I understand many of the gay rights reasons for gay marriage and they make sense. Problem is they make it sound like it is something simple and harmless. They (principalities and evil forces EPH 6:12"not FLEASH and BLOOD) want everyone to believe the LIE. The TRUTH is if gay marriage passes, it will change our SOCIETY as we know it"below are 3 things to consider and is WHY I AM AGAINST GAY MARRIAGE".BUT NOT GAYS.

1) Like I said earlier, redefining MARRIAGE is a slippery slope to opening up doors for POLYGAMY, POLYAMORY, PEDOPHILES (all they have to is claim they can"t help being in love with children, they were born that way) people wanting to marry their car (google it) their dog or horse (google it) and God knows what else some pervert could come up with. Feelings should never dictate over common sense and the WHOLE OF SOCIETIES WELL BEING. Look at the big picture"please!...Think about it, who would have thought that one day it would be ok to KILL A BABY IN A MOTHERS WOMB? Come on, we all know we can JUSTIFY anything if we really want to and if it is preached enough we will believe it".hey, make it funny and now you got me.

2) God established 3 institutions"MARRIAGE"GOVERNMENT".THE CHURCH. The bible says, "WHAT GOD HAS JOINED TOGETHER LET NO MAN DEPART"Many see this only in marriage terms, but I see it to also mean"anything God has established including His word. God made man and woman in HIS IMAGE, both male and female He made them".and all the animals as well. He made them all to FIT PERFECTLY TOGETHER, not only physically but in other ways as well".it was the "FALL OF MAN"""that screwed it all up after that; to say otherwise is to SLAP a HOLY GOD IN HIS FACE".telling Him that He didn"t know what he was doing, that man knows better. Wow that is a pretty bold statement that will have judgmental consequences later"PRIDE the fall of Satan and mankind. Anyway, point being"God instituted marriage to be between a man and woman only. Read the book of Geneses for all the verses.

3) Gay Marriage will affect RELIGIOUS FREEDOMS".Since I"m not really up on all that, but I do see how it could easily be another slippery slope of Government controlling what the church can say or do, if not lawsuits and other ramification will follow in the guise of HATE and DISCRIMINATION".OH, if only the STRAIGHT community knew how much INTOLERANCE and DISCRIMINATION is with the gay community"BI SEXUALS are actually hated, labeled, unfairly judged, and discriminated due to many misconceptions, anyway point being they FIGHT AMONG their own community and yet they act like they are different than the straight community or Christians. We are all human so no one is exempt from begin judged or judging others"it is what it is.

So putting JUDGING and HATE aside"What is in the best interest of maintaining that which is SACRED, God"s WORD, our SOCIETY, our CHILDREN'S future, separation of CHURCH and STATE???...that is what this all should boil down to.

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FaustianJustice
Posts: 6,221
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12/29/2014 11:43:17 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/29/2014 3:17:46 PM, MsTambo wrote:
One of the strongest desires to talk about the GAY MARRIAGE DEBATE, is because I"m not finding much written on this subject from the conservative side being able to adequately defend their side. I"m mostly finding their main focus being SCRIPTURE, that is great for the one who knows God and understands God"s word, but for most, they don"t care what Gods word says, for to them "man wrote it", so who cares?...Thing is according to 2 Peter 1:21 and 2 Tim 3:16, God wrote it through man. So let"s attack this subject in a more objective way, covering all sides. (well, mainly the conservative side as I don"t have enough space or time) Again, I"m all about BALANCE and TRUTH. I"m going to start off with something I said to myself 25 years ago "..

I said in my heart and head"."IF HOMOSEXUALITY IS EVER CONDONED IN AMERICA WHAT"S NEXT?... THE PEDOPHILE CAN ALSO SAY HE TOO CAN"T HELP HIS FEELINGS OF LOVE".HE WAS BORN THAT WAY" and "LOVE IS ALL THAT MATTERS RIGHT?....my predication came TRUE 20 something years later"when the show "LAW and ORDER" in 2009 and 2010, they actually did 2 episodes that echoed exactly what I had predicted years prior, hence a very early understanding of a possible "SLIPPERY SLOPE""

Firstly, let me say something that is really important"THE CHURCH cannot mandate MORALITY to the world, only God can do that, and He does it individually through each person"s heart. The church is NOT called to JUDGE, but to LOVE!....This is what Jesus did"like I said before many times, as one DRAWS CLOSER TO GOD, it is the work of the Holy Spirit to do His work in changing their mind and heart to match His will and desire. My job is to help that person in whatever state they are in to draw closer to God, using firm boundaries, accountability, truth, acceptance, love, respect".NOT BY JUDGING and CONDEMNING THEM. But my LOVE FOR GOD should always supersede my love for man and his laws. Therefore while I think same sex couples should be treated with respect and should have certain rights that would be given to anyone else living together and from what I understand they are given many rights already, not like they have NONE...I understand many of the gay rights reasons for gay marriage and they make sense. Problem is they make it sound like it is something simple and harmless. They (principalities and evil forces EPH 6:12"not FLEASH and BLOOD) want everyone to believe the LIE. The TRUTH is if gay marriage passes, it will change our SOCIETY as we know it"below are 3 things to consider and is WHY I AM AGAINST GAY MARRIAGE".BUT NOT GAYS.

1) Like I said earlier, redefining MARRIAGE is a slippery slope to opening up doors for POLYGAMY, POLYAMORY, PEDOPHILES (all they have to is claim they can"t help being in love with children, they were born that way) people wanting to marry their car (google it) their dog or horse (google it) and God knows what else some pervert could come up with. Feelings should never dictate over common sense and the WHOLE OF SOCIETIES WELL BEING. Look at the big picture"please!...Think about it, who would have thought that one day it would be ok to KILL A BABY IN A MOTHERS WOMB? Come on, we all know we can JUSTIFY anything if we really want to and if it is preached enough we will believe it".hey, make it funny and now you got me.

Why is marriage so ambiguous that it requires you to define it by who participates in it as opposed to what it is? Marriage, even by the loosest of definitions has been the joining of 2 different things, be it male, female, concept, or apparatus. In the case of people, it was by consent. As such, beyond poly-whatever I will not entertain pedophila and the like, some how the goal posts move to what is moral regarding homosexuality, that seems to be the only segway to such things.

2) God established 3 institutions"MARRIAGE"GOVERNMENT".THE CHURCH. The bible says, "WHAT GOD HAS JOINED TOGETHER LET NO MAN DEPART"Many see this only in marriage terms, but I see it to also mean"anything God has established including His word. God made man and woman in HIS IMAGE, both male and female He made them".and all the animals as well. He made them all to FIT PERFECTLY TOGETHER, not only physically but in other ways as well".it was the "FALL OF MAN"""that screwed it all up after that; to say otherwise is to SLAP a HOLY GOD IN HIS FACE".telling Him that He didn"t know what he was doing, that man knows better. Wow that is a pretty bold statement that will have judgmental consequences later"PRIDE the fall of Satan and mankind. Anyway, point being"God instituted marriage to be between a man and woman only. Read the book of Geneses for all the verses.

And God doesn't exist. Or is a Christian theocracy your basis for society? I missed that in the Constitution. Should some one not believe your holy book and Pancreator be the origin of the universe, are they allowed to wed? Should they be wed, do you recognize it?

3) Gay Marriage will affect RELIGIOUS FREEDOMS".Since I"m not really up on all that, but I do see how it could easily be another slippery slope of Government controlling what the church can say or do, if not lawsuits and other ramification will follow in the guise of HATE and DISCRIMINATION".OH, if only the STRAIGHT community knew how much INTOLERANCE and DISCRIMINATION is with the gay community"BI SEXUALS are actually hated, labeled, unfairly judged, and discriminated due to many misconceptions, anyway point being they FIGHT AMONG their own community and yet they act like they are different than the straight community or Christians. We are all human so no one is exempt from begin judged or judging others"it is what it is.

You have it backwards: its religious tyranny that is keeping gays from being married. Thus far, that has been the only reasonable origin for marriage discrimination as is.

So putting JUDGING and HATE aside"What is in the best interest of maintaining that which is SACRED, God"s WORD, our SOCIETY, our CHILDREN'S future, separation of CHURCH and STATE???...that is what this all should boil down to.

You don't seem to understand what is being argued for. A church can marry whom ever they want, and it not be state recognized. That is the common denominator, not the church. A church can NOT marry whomever they want, but if the state recognizes it, its valid across the US, and holds certain benefit that a specifically church ceremony does not. If a church doesn't want to participate in the marriage of a woman and a woman, frankly, I don't care. The reasons for such are their cheese, they can describe smell, and are wholly irrelevant to getting hitched by the clerk of the court down town.
Here we have an advocate for Islamic arranged marriages demonstrating that children can consent to sex.
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IEnglishman
Posts: 148
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12/30/2014 12:53:45 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
LordGrae seems to think there are no reasonable arguments against gay marriage that don't resolve around the Bible. But actually there are. Marriage in legal terms refers to a contract between a man and a woman, retract that and anybody can get contracts between anybody at any time, essentially. This way you legalize polygamy, child marriage, etc, it has all knds of harmful implications.
Bulproof admits he's a troll http://www.debate.org... (see post 16). Do not feed.
IEnglishman
Posts: 148
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12/30/2014 12:55:27 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/30/2014 12:53:45 AM, IEnglishman wrote:
LordGrae seems to think there are no reasonable arguments against gay marriage that don't resolve around the Bible. But actually there are. Marriage in legal terms refers to a contract between a man and a woman, retract that and anybody can get contracts between anybody at any time, essentially. This way you legalize polygamy, child marriage, etc, it has all knds of harmful implications.

Should have addressed MsTambo. You guys have similarly sized forum avatars and I assumed it was that other guy who posted the OP.
Bulproof admits he's a troll http://www.debate.org... (see post 16). Do not feed.
MsTambo
Posts: 202
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12/30/2014 12:14:47 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
HOW SHOULD A CHRISTIAN TREAT THE HOMOSEXUAL?
Firstly, let me start off with defining what "SIN" is. Sin is an old archery term that was used when someone "Missed the Mark" missed the bull"s eye. They fell short. Well, guess what, God is the Bull"s Eye and we all have "sinned" and "missed the mark"we have all fallen short."".(Rom 3:23)"I don"t care what your sin is, in God"s eyes, sin is sin, is sin, because He is perfect, (Matt 5:28) therefore no one measures up! Not the person who has stolen $1.00, to the person who has murdered, and the homosexual. In God"s eyes, it is the fact that one has stolen what isn"t his, one has taken a life that wasn"t his to take, and one has exchanged the natural for the unnatural. They have ALL violated "WHO GOD IS!" We are all guilty before a Holy God, unless we have been FORGIVEN ALL OUR SINS by God through FAITH in what Jesus did on the cross" (Eph 8:9-10.) Once saved all our sins are forgiven even the homosexual, even though they may struggle with sin like everyone does. (Col 2:13-14) Doesn"t matter what man"s views are either way, if they do not line up with God"s word and WHO HE IS, they are wrong. As Christians we are under the New Testament, under grace, (Rom 6) not the law, so I ask".."What Would Jesus Do?"

Some would say that homosexuality is NOT a sin, because some people are just born that way. There are a few verses in the NT, that say it is because it is UNNATURAL"(Rom 1:26-17, list many sins and 1 Cor 6:9) Going back to the first sentence in this paragraph, I would have to say from my study and observation that could be just one component. No sin or bent is due to only one factor, there could be many. And right here is where both sides have a few misunderstandings. In some ways each view is right and I will do my best to try and break each down and find a median of the HEART! For it is always the HEART that matters to God, is it not? (Matt 22:27-29) "God and Others. I will need to break this topic down into some basics for a better understanding. I will start with why homosexuality or the ACT of it is sin, and not the thoughts per say, or we are all doomed! I could go much deeper, but for time sake and space, I will summarize. The bible is very clear that all sexual sin is wrong, Fornication-Adultery-Bestiality-Homosexuality-Incest-Plural relationships-Pedophilia, etc. The main reason, a reason that only I seem to have come up with is, "That the act (not feelings""You can"t keep a bird from flying over your head, but you can keep him from building a nest there") goes against "WHO" God is and how He made us"He made us both male and female, like Him (Gen 1:27) To say that same sex union is "normal or natural" is to "SLAP" Almighty God in His face and say He was wrong in His creation, that man knows better. WOW!

God"s commandments are for OUR BEST, not to hurt us. In many areas of our lives we have choices to do what is going to be best for us, those around us and to God, or we choose not to and suffer the consequences. Do I believe all homosexuals choose the lifestyle they are in? No, I believe there are many reasons why one ends up being attracted to the same sex. And they go back to four of the five factors. 1) THEIR SIN NATURE, (choice)"2) OTHERS SIN NATURE (many have been bullied, experimented, or molested as children, or women who have had abusive men)"3) A FALLEN WORLD (hormones or predisposition, they are usually melancholy in temperament, sensitive) 4) EVIL FORCES, (There are always evil forces at work when it comes to doing opposite of God"s will, homosexuality one of them"the lifestyle is rarely a happy one, it is a LIE!)
Our goal as Christians isn"t to judge the homosexual, but to help them like we would anyone else struggling with sin get back to the # 5th factor, being in GOD"S WILL. Let God, do the judging and the work, we are to be the tools, and the catalyst for change. This would be true for anyone struggling with any temptation. Of course, I could write a whole book on this subject that would explain more deeply why homosexuality is a sin, and how a professing Christian can reconcile this "STRUGGLE" in their life and still be God honoring"I believe the process for change or acceptance (may just have to remain pure) would be the same way for any struggle anyone would have.

I think the church has a huge misunderstanding of how it is suppose to deal with "SIN" among their members (not visitors) for one; the church NO LONGER applies church discipline, (Matt 18 and 1 Cor 5) so right there you have NO ACCOUNTABILITY. The church today is one extreme or the other (more liberal/worldly than ever before) they see no middle ground. The bible is clear that sin needs to be dealt with and believe me, I"m all for that and I preach about ACCOUNTABILITY. But accountability without "Love/Agape and Restoration, is like a parent who beats their child all because of their "behavior" never taking into consideration the steps it takes to GUIDE that child through the process of LEARNING proper SELF DISCIPLINE and CORRECT BEHAVIOR, get it? GROWTH IS A PROCESS. What is the goal of one who would DISOWN their own child or even a wayward Christian brother or sister? Don"t get me wrong, I understand the bible verses such as Matt 18 and 1 Cor 5. when it comes to church discipline. But I"m not talking about a person who is blatantly living in sin (sins fitting into the category of all NT sins that are listed, even GOSSIP) with no regard to those around them or their God, they do not see that a "little leaven ruins the whole loaf," that "one bad apple soars the whole barrel""(if only those same chapters applied other places as well!) Accountability is given for the benefit of the WHOLE BODY (I believe when it comes to an unsaved person, we should never hold them to the same standard"we can vote for laws, but not force individuals to have our same principles) Accountability keeps the church/the body "Pure" and "Holy". So my stance is that before the church "Picks and Chooses" which sins are greater than another, they better go back to the only 2 verses in the New Testament (we are under GRACE not the LAW now) that even hint to homosexuality and see if their sin isn"t mentioned besides it? Jesus told those who condemned the woman caught in adultery (John 8:1-11"still want to know what happened to the man?) they were not able to judge her now, only He could do that," He then told the woman to "go and sin no more" Think about it, homosexuality is a subject that even Jesus never mentioned, yet He did mention many of the other sins and then some. Jesus/God always judged the HEART, (1 Sam 16:7) not the outward. And is why He was always upset with the PHARISEES. (Matt 23) Jesus came to bring RECONCILIATION through His death, burial and resurrection"(Col 1:20) He came to reconcile man to God, and man to each other. If that was Jesus"s goal , should that not be ours? While the legalist doesn"t understand compassion and empathy, the liberal doesn"t understand the concept of "TOUGH LOVE" "The legalist doesn"t understand that "Tough Love" should always be administered with the goal of restoration in mind, doing so in Agape love. And the liberal doesn"t understand the need for tough love, so they do not continue to enable. There needs to be a "Balance."
MsTambo
Posts: 202
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12/30/2014 12:15:30 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
EXAMPLE: As a Christian mother who loves both her son"s and loves God and His ways, I would hope that if one of my boys or God forbid both came to me one day and told me they were gay, I would "Do The Right Thing". I do believe doing the right thing, isn"t going to be popular in either extreme views. but it is the way for restoration. If one of them is not a believer, then I cannot expect them to act godly, if they don"t even have God IN them. How can I expect them to have the POWER TO OVERCOME SIN in their lives, when I have the power in me and I still struggle with sin?

If they are a professing believer and they desire to go God"s way, and they are sincerely seeking and doing their best, then I just need to be there for them and guide them the best that have I allowed God to work in me. I need to help them up that scale to holiness that I talk about, regarding God"s will for their life and how to be truly happy, not gay"..Satan"s will -0"""100 God"s will. The closer one gets in their walk with God, and the more they are FILLED WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT, the closer their desires now become His desires; they will no longer feel the need to sin against Him. GAL 5:16..."THIS I SAY THEN, WALK IN THE SPIRIT, AND YE SHALL NOT FULFIL THE LUST OF THE FLESH""That is God"s work, not ours. Remember we are the "Clay/Tools" (Rom 9) that He uses to help others, not by judging, but by doing. Let God do the work, let Him be the judge. Now, here is the other side.

ENABLING, not good. For there to be healthy relationships, there must not be any enabling! Meaning, that if a professing Christian is living in habitual sin and still attends church regularly or is a member and acts like nothing is wrong (not one who just has thoughts) who still refuses to see their sin the way God does, in Matt 18 and 1 Cor 5, after being confronted, then "Church Discipline" is to be applied. But the "Church building" the meeting place has different standards than is to be expected to be found on the outside, that is for society and the Government to have the same standards that God does, but it doesn't (a whole other topic) When dealing with a non attending "gay Christian" and an unbeliever gay person, we cannot expect the same standards. I mean we can exile one from the family for living in sin/homosexuality, but what does that teach anyone and where does one draw the line on sin?...Your drunken uncle, family members living together, a gossiping aunt? It would be nice if we lived in a moral society, but nowhere in the bible is the world called to a Godly standard, only believers are. For a believer to treat a homosexual family member, coworker, friend, acquaintance, outside the church, using church discipline and harshly chastising them and exiling them, isn"t acting biblically. For even Jesus said, "Be in the world, but not of it, (John 17:15-16) Common sense dictates that it would be ridiculous, if not impossible to distant ourselves away from all those living in blatant sin against God, including ourselves...He, He"Remember, to God all sin is wrong and no one"s sin is worse or better than anyone else"s. So obviously God would want you and I to be a "LIGHT in a DARK world" (Matt 5:14) even if one of our children, family member, or even friends, comes "out of the closet" to us. If they cross your boundaries in anyway, then yes that would be a "no,no!", and may result in cause for a disconnect, but to judge them solely on their struggle and confusion and not their HEART, and how God see"s them, God forbid! If this family member is a professing Christian the same principles that are applied to help draw a struggling homosexual or any sinner in the church back to God, is to be applied here"Pretty simple if you ask me. As far as protecting, nieces and nephews and other innocent ears and eyes, look around you, are they not subject to enough of people sinning in all kinds of ways in everything they VIEW?...What they are not going to see is, LOVING and MATURE CHRISTIANS doing the right thing and helping those who are "IN" sin, finding a way to get OUT!

Think I will stop here, like I said, I could write a whole book on this subject.
MsTambo
Posts: 202
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12/30/2014 12:17:25 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
GOD ESTABLISHED MARRIAGE...THE CHURCH...GOVERNMENT

" The family illustrates the unity of God (Genesis 2:24; Deuteronomy 6:4)

" Human government illustrates the judgment of God (Romans 13:1,2)

" The church illustrates the love of God (Ephesians 5:22-27)

The family was the first human institution God created. Through the family God illustrates visibly the relationships which exist in the Godhead and the relationship which exists between Christ and His church. Through the family God sought to bring into proper relationship the world with Himself. He created all of the heavens and earth and the things in them that they might prepare the way for and sustain the crown of His creation " humanity.

" How the family began " Genesis 2:18-25

" Three essentials for a Christian home " Deuteronomy 6:4-9

" The role of the wife " 1 Peter 3:1-6

" The role of the husband " Col. 3:19

" The role of children " Proverbs 1:8

" The role of parents " Ephesians 6:4

" The prescription for rearing children " Proverbs 22:6

God"s purpose in human government is that it serve as both a custodian and an enforcer of His eternal law. It has been correctly noted that alll the thousands of good and practical laws passed hundreds of legislative bodies and rulers throughout history are in reality only amplifications of the Ten Commandments.

" The origin of human government " Genesis 9:5

" The function of human government " Romans 13:1-4

" Our responsibility to human government " 1 Peter 2:13

The church, illustrating God"s love for us, is the fourth institution through which God works. The universal church (which is the Body of Christ)\ Col 1:18) comprises all believers since the institution of the church.

" The meaning of the word church " Acts 7:38

" The origin of the church " Matthew 16:18

" The purpose of the church " Ephesians 3:21; Ephesians 4:11-32

" The offices of the church " 1 Timothy 3:1-13

" The relationship of the church to Christ - Ephesians 5:25-29
FaustianJustice
Posts: 6,221
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12/30/2014 11:06:08 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/30/2014 12:53:45 AM, IEnglishman wrote:
LordGrae seems to think there are no reasonable arguments against gay marriage that don't resolve around the Bible. But actually there are. Marriage in legal terms refers to a contract between a man and a woman, retract that and anybody can get contracts between anybody at any time, essentially. This way you legalize polygamy, child marriage, etc, it has all knds of harmful implications.

People can already form contracts between anybody at any time.

Children can't commit to a contract, and polygamy would require its own contracts alon with a seperate one with the state for benefit amongst all parties to prevent fraud.
Here we have an advocate for Islamic arranged marriages demonstrating that children can consent to sex.
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gomergcc
Posts: 60
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12/31/2014 6:52:07 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Typical nonsense arguments that basically say,"Agree with me or the world will end." FYI the correct term is polyamorous.
Fagot
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1/27/2015 6:10:22 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
all people have the rights to get marriage. the bibel do not say anything about two men or two women can get married. They can't have children, does that not mean that they should not have the right to get married
ELDRITCH
Posts: 17
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1/27/2015 11:23:46 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
If god wants to stop gay marriage he can run for office or become a judge on the supreme court and do it himself.
Bennett91
Posts: 4,226
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1/27/2015 12:13:24 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
No need to necro post folks, Tambo hasn't been on for a week and hopefully she'll never return. I mean seriously, she used a TV show to confirm her beliefs, you can't argue with a person like that.