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Big Business and Government

Reasoning
Posts: 4,456
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6/11/2010 8:53:07 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
There is a widespread perception that big government and big business are fundamentally at odds. Libertarians generally consider themselves to be to be defenders of the peaceful business interests against the violent coercion of the government. Those on the left see the same opposition but with opposite evaluations. They see the government as the defender of the people against the harmful business interests.

There are countless examples of this world view. Ayn Rand, though not a libertarian, even went so far as to call big business the most persecuted minority in America. Ha! For the most persecuted minority they sure do get a lot of subsidies and bailouts. This is vulgar libertarianism at its finest.

The truth of the matter is that big business and big government are co-conspirators, not enemies and though there may be factional struggles between competing factions of the ruling elite, they are still merely factional struggles among the ruling elite. See mainstream Democratic and Republican politicians.

Big business uses the government to impose tariffs on competing foreign business, give themselves tax breaks, subsidies and bailouts, directly restrict competition, enter wars to protect its interests, etc. All this at the expense of the common man and all this to prop up the ruling class and its business interests.

"Public Choice" economics has shown us that the government by its very nature is suited to disperse costs across the civilian population and concentrate benefits in the hands of the few, the elite, the rulers, the capitalists, the farmers that live in luxury off the labor of others.

Government is not the people's weapon to use against the exploiters, nay, it is he tool of exploitation itself. Government and big business are not foes that meet each other with enmity but secret lovers that are not terribly good at covering their tracks, if only you looked.
"What we really ought to ask the liberal, before we even begin addressing his agenda, is this: In what kind of society would he be a conservative?" - Joseph Sobran
Cody_Franklin
Posts: 9,483
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6/11/2010 9:10:22 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
I would say that it's a bit of both. There is a lot of favor-trading that goes on between government and businesses; however, that doesn't make them "secret lovers" as you claim to be. Whenever government favors are used to aid a business, other businesses (often "big" businesses) are harmed in the process. So, the question isn't whether government is an enemy or a friend to business. It's a question of which business the government is being friendly to, at which business's expense, and for how long.

By the way: when Rand argued that the businessman was a persecuted minority, it was because of a negative public sentiment towards businesses which resulted from the favor-trading which was (and still is) going on; though, the anti-trust laws (which gave government quite a bit of leverage over businesses in the favor-trading process) contribute a great deal to government persecution of business. Does "trust-busting" ring any bells with you?
Rob1Billion
Posts: 1,338
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6/11/2010 11:24:17 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
you cant get into offce without money. you cant get any money without business. any questions?
Master P is the end result of capitalism.
mongeese
Posts: 5,387
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6/12/2010 7:13:29 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/11/2010 11:24:17 PM, Rob1Billion wrote:
you cant get into offce without money. you cant get any money without business. any questions?

What about Alvin Greene?
Rob1Billion
Posts: 1,338
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6/12/2010 8:16:17 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
"Greene won the Democratic primary race against establishment candidate Vic Rawl[2] in June of 2010 with 58% of votes cast despite very limited campaigning and campaign spending, no website, and no yard signs."

Notice it said despite... Would you please explain to us why they used this word?

You are making probably the cardinal conservative fallacy. We have a system that favors the rich, heavily, and to deny this you will point out one extreme outlier as reasoning that "everyone has a chance" even though we really don't. It's similar to citing the one person who survived that recent plane crash (while the rest of the hundred or so passengers perished) and claiming that people have no problem surviving plane crashes as long as they succeed like that person did. People are conditioned from birth to agree with you, though, so I am really wasting my time writing this but whatever.
Master P is the end result of capitalism.
mongoose
Posts: 3,500
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6/12/2010 8:51:05 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/12/2010 8:16:17 AM, Rob1Billion wrote:
"Greene won the Democratic primary race against establishment candidate Vic Rawl[2] in June of 2010 with 58% of votes cast despite very limited campaigning and campaign spending, no website, and no yard signs."

Notice it said despite... Would you please explain to us why they used this word?

You are making probably the cardinal conservative fallacy. We have a system that favors the rich, heavily, and to deny this you will point out one extreme outlier as reasoning that "everyone has a chance" even though we really don't. It's similar to citing the one person who survived that recent plane crash (while the rest of the hundred or so passengers perished) and claiming that people have no problem surviving plane crashes as long as they succeed like that person did. People are conditioned from birth to agree with you, though, so I am really wasting my time writing this but whatever.

Unlikely: yes.
Impossible: no.
It is odd when one's capacity for compassion is measured not in what he is willing to do by his own time, effort, and property, but what he will force others to do with their own property instead.
Volkov
Posts: 9,765
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6/12/2010 8:23:04 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/12/2010 8:16:53 PM, FREEDO wrote:
Capitalism is just another form of government.

The true freedom fighter opposes both.

That doesn't make much sense, in all honesty.

Besides, I dunno anyone outside of statist socialists which follow your idea of "freedom."
FREEDO
Posts: 21,057
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6/12/2010 8:26:00 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/12/2010 8:23:04 PM, Volkov wrote:
At 6/12/2010 8:16:53 PM, FREEDO wrote:
Capitalism is just another form of government.

The true freedom fighter opposes both.

That doesn't make much sense, in all honesty.

Besides, I dunno anyone outside of statist socialists which follow your idea of "freedom."

There's other here besides me. Reasoning for one.
And I have over one thousand of them as friends on facebook.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
InsertNameHere
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6/12/2010 8:27:42 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/12/2010 8:26:00 PM, FREEDO wrote:
At 6/12/2010 8:23:04 PM, Volkov wrote:
At 6/12/2010 8:16:53 PM, FREEDO wrote:
Capitalism is just another form of government.

The true freedom fighter opposes both.

That doesn't make much sense, in all honesty.

Besides, I dunno anyone outside of statist socialists which follow your idea of "freedom."

There's other here besides me. Reasoning for one.
And I have over one thousand of them as friends on facebook.

Well I wouldn't say Reasoning is your average Libertarian Socialist. Also, it's quite common to be Anti-Capitalist and Anti-Statist. Freedo's position isn't unique.
Volkov
Posts: 9,765
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6/12/2010 8:32:49 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/12/2010 8:26:00 PM, FREEDO wrote:
There's other here besides me. Reasoning for one.

Yeah... Reasoning isn't a good example.

And I have over one thousand of them as friends on facebook.

Oh great. You're going to invite your Facebook friends. I'm so very scared of people you probably end up adding without even paying attention.
FREEDO
Posts: 21,057
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6/12/2010 8:33:56 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/12/2010 8:32:49 PM, Volkov wrote:
At 6/12/2010 8:26:00 PM, FREEDO wrote:
There's other here besides me. Reasoning for one.

Yeah... Reasoning isn't a good example.

Reasoning is a perfect example.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
Volkov
Posts: 9,765
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6/12/2010 8:37:12 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/12/2010 8:33:56 PM, FREEDO wrote:
Reasoning is a perfect example.

He combines his Lockean rights with Austrian economics and socialism, is an anarchistic, anti-hierarchial, devout Catholic, and doesn't get out too much.

Yeah, great example. Nothing like a smattering of every goddamn philosophy in the world to get your point across.
FREEDO
Posts: 21,057
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6/12/2010 8:38:49 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/12/2010 8:37:12 PM, Volkov wrote:
At 6/12/2010 8:33:56 PM, FREEDO wrote:
Reasoning is a perfect example.

He combines his Lockean rights with Austrian economics and socialism, is an anarchistic, anti-hierarchial, devout Catholic, and doesn't get out too much.

Yeah, great example. Nothing like a smattering of every goddamn philosophy in the world to get your point across.

We are both Free-Market Socialists. And where did you here he was Catholic?
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
Xer
Posts: 7,776
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6/12/2010 8:38:53 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/12/2010 8:37:12 PM, Volkov wrote:
At 6/12/2010 8:33:56 PM, FREEDO wrote:
Reasoning is a perfect example.

He combines his Lockean rights with Austrian economics and socialism, is an anarchistic, anti-hierarchial, devout Catholic, and doesn't get out too much.

Yeah, great example. Nothing like a smattering of every goddamn philosophy in the world to get your point across.

Lmao.
Volkov
Posts: 9,765
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6/12/2010 8:40:49 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/12/2010 8:38:49 PM, FREEDO wrote:
We are both Free-Market Socialists.

Your definitions of "free market" is nothing but socialism dressed up in libertarian rhetoric.

And where did you here he was Catholic?

He's mentioned it a couple times. Or, at the very least, he has been involved in Catholicism in the past.
FREEDO
Posts: 21,057
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6/12/2010 8:45:08 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/12/2010 8:40:49 PM, Volkov wrote:
At 6/12/2010 8:38:49 PM, FREEDO wrote:

And where did you here he was Catholic?

He's mentioned it a couple times. Or, at the very least, he has been involved in Catholicism in the past.

I'm pretty sure he isn't now. We chat on AIM and from what I recall he agrees with me when I go on anti-religious rants. That may just be passiveness though.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
InsertNameHere
Posts: 15,699
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6/12/2010 8:47:38 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/12/2010 8:45:08 PM, FREEDO wrote:
At 6/12/2010 8:40:49 PM, Volkov wrote:
At 6/12/2010 8:38:49 PM, FREEDO wrote:

And where did you here he was Catholic?

He's mentioned it a couple times. Or, at the very least, he has been involved in Catholicism in the past.

I'm pretty sure he isn't now. We chat on AIM and from what I recall he agrees with me when I go on anti-religious rants. That may just be passiveness though.

He could have been raised Catholic, but has since then stopped practicing. I have a friend like that. She was brought up Catholic and although she's not practicing she still identifies as such.
Volkov
Posts: 9,765
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6/12/2010 9:32:08 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/12/2010 8:49:21 PM, Nags wrote:
I'm pretty sure he's still Catholic. I remember him defending the Pope/RCC to death a few months ago.

Agreed.

Which I always found amusing. How does an anarchist who hates hierarchy claim adherence to Catholicism, or even God? It seems a little contradictory.
studentathletechristian8
Posts: 5,810
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6/12/2010 9:33:02 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/12/2010 9:32:08 PM, Volkov wrote:
At 6/12/2010 8:49:21 PM, Nags wrote:
I'm pretty sure he's still Catholic. I remember him defending the Pope/RCC to death a few months ago.

Agreed.

Which I always found amusing. How does an anarchist who hates hierarchy claim adherence to Catholicism, or even God? It seems a little contradictory.

This is my dilemma.
FREEDO
Posts: 21,057
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6/12/2010 9:41:05 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/12/2010 9:33:02 PM, studentathletechristian8 wrote:
At 6/12/2010 9:32:08 PM, Volkov wrote:
At 6/12/2010 8:49:21 PM, Nags wrote:
I'm pretty sure he's still Catholic. I remember him defending the Pope/RCC to death a few months ago.

Agreed.

Which I always found amusing. How does an anarchist who hates hierarchy claim adherence to Catholicism, or even God? It seems a little contradictory.

This is my dilemma.

It definitely is contradictory. Religion is the most oppressive tyranny of all.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
studentathletechristian8
Posts: 5,810
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6/12/2010 9:42:50 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/12/2010 9:41:05 PM, FREEDO wrote:
At 6/12/2010 9:33:02 PM, studentathletechristian8 wrote:
At 6/12/2010 9:32:08 PM, Volkov wrote:
At 6/12/2010 8:49:21 PM, Nags wrote:
I'm pretty sure he's still Catholic. I remember him defending the Pope/RCC to death a few months ago.

Agreed.

Which I always found amusing. How does an anarchist who hates hierarchy claim adherence to Catholicism, or even God? It seems a little contradictory.

This is my dilemma.

It definitely is contradictory. Religion is the most oppressive tyranny of all.

Do you guys think I can get out of Church tomorrow by exercising my First Amendment rights? Are those applicable to the whole kid-parental situation?
Volkov
Posts: 9,765
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6/12/2010 9:45:00 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/12/2010 9:42:50 PM, studentathletechristian8 wrote:
Do you guys think I can get out of Church tomorrow by exercising my First Amendment rights? Are those applicable to the whole kid-parental situation?

No. I think you'd probably be laughed at, in all honesty. Parents are like that.

You could just say "I dun wanna go." Say you've got work to do. Or you don't believe in that junk anymore.
InsertNameHere
Posts: 15,699
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6/12/2010 9:46:25 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/12/2010 9:42:50 PM, studentathletechristian8 wrote:
At 6/12/2010 9:41:05 PM, FREEDO wrote:
At 6/12/2010 9:33:02 PM, studentathletechristian8 wrote:
At 6/12/2010 9:32:08 PM, Volkov wrote:
At 6/12/2010 8:49:21 PM, Nags wrote:
I'm pretty sure he's still Catholic. I remember him defending the Pope/RCC to death a few months ago.

Agreed.

Which I always found amusing. How does an anarchist who hates hierarchy claim adherence to Catholicism, or even God? It seems a little contradictory.

This is my dilemma.

It definitely is contradictory. Religion is the most oppressive tyranny of all.

Do you guys think I can get out of Church tomorrow by exercising my First Amendment rights? Are those applicable to the whole kid-parental situation?

Just don't announce that you're an atheist otherwise this will happen. :)
studentathletechristian8
Posts: 5,810
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6/12/2010 9:47:52 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/12/2010 9:45:00 PM, Volkov wrote:
At 6/12/2010 9:42:50 PM, studentathletechristian8 wrote:
Do you guys think I can get out of Church tomorrow by exercising my First Amendment rights? Are those applicable to the whole kid-parental situation?

No. I think you'd probably be laughed at, in all honesty. Parents are like that.

That's what I figured.

You could just say "I dun wanna go."

I've done that. I think she's gonna' force me to go until I'm out of high school. I'm just sick of it. I'm wasting so much time there; they don't do anything productive at Church. I"ll try harder tomorrow.

Say you've got work to do.
Summer; they'd say I could work later.

Or you don't believe in that junk anymore.
My mother is a fervent Christian. It gets really tight when I merely talk about Christianity with her.