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Death Penalty and Abortion

ford_prefect
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1/6/2015 8:56:35 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
How is it that most people are pro life in one case but pro death in the other? Either human life deserves to be protected or it doesn't. Can anyone who supports killing one group but not the other explain this inconsistency?
KhaosMage
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1/6/2015 9:03:42 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/6/2015 8:56:35 PM, ford_prefect wrote:
How is it that most people are pro life in one case but pro death in the other? Either human life deserves to be protected or it doesn't. Can anyone who supports killing one group but not the other explain this inconsistency?

The distinction is usually the fetus is innocent, while the inmate is not.
thett3
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1/6/2015 9:07:32 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
False dichotomy. Opposing abortion doesn't mean you have to think that human life is always worth protecting, it just means you oppose taking it in that case for whatever reason and support taking it in the other.

I don't understand how anyone could *possibly* confuse the two issues, anyway.
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: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
thett3
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1/6/2015 9:08:03 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/6/2015 9:07:32 PM, thett3 wrote:
False dichotomy. Opposing abortion doesn't mean you have to think that human life is always worth protecting, it just means you oppose taking it in that case for whatever reason and support taking it in the other.

I don't understand how anyone could *possibly* confuse the two issues, anyway.

The false dichotomy being "either human life is worth protecting or it isn't". You know better.
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"Don't quote me, ever." -Max

"My name is max. I'm not a big fan of slacks"- Max rapping

"Walmart should have the opportunity to bribe a politician to it's agenda" -Max

"Thett, you're really good at convincing people you're a decent person"-tulle

"You fit the character of Regina George quite nicely"- Sam

: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
ford_prefect
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1/6/2015 9:13:14 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/6/2015 9:03:42 PM, KhaosMage wrote:
At 1/6/2015 8:56:35 PM, ford_prefect wrote:
How is it that most people are pro life in one case but pro death in the other? Either human life deserves to be protected or it doesn't. Can anyone who supports killing one group but not the other explain this inconsistency?

The distinction is usually the fetus is innocent, while the inmate is not.

That might be true, if it weren't for the fact that the justice system isn't infallible. Many inmates who are executed did not actually commit the crimes they were accused of. So is it ok to ignore these innocent victims? Either innocent human life is worthy of protection or it isn't.
ford_prefect
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1/6/2015 9:17:33 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/6/2015 9:07:32 PM, thett3 wrote:
False dichotomy. Opposing abortion doesn't mean you have to think that human life is always worth protecting, it just means you oppose taking it in that case for whatever reason and support taking it in the other.

I don't understand how anyone could *possibly* confuse the two issues, anyway.

So can you give me a reason for why anyone would oppose abortion other than "we should not kill people?"

Most abortion opponents believe in the sanctity of human life
thett3
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1/6/2015 9:18:26 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/6/2015 9:13:14 PM, ford_prefect wrote:
At 1/6/2015 9:03:42 PM, KhaosMage wrote:
At 1/6/2015 8:56:35 PM, ford_prefect wrote:
How is it that most people are pro life in one case but pro death in the other? Either human life deserves to be protected or it doesn't. Can anyone who supports killing one group but not the other explain this inconsistency?

The distinction is usually the fetus is innocent, while the inmate is not.

That might be true, if it weren't for the fact that the justice system isn't infallible. Many inmates who are executed did not actually commit the crimes they were accused of. So is it ok to ignore these innocent victims? Either innocent human life is worthy of protection or it isn't.

Dumb. Opposing the death penalty because it might lead to innocents being executed is a noble position--but most people who support the death penalty don't say: "screw innocent life, yee haw!". They just think that certain crimes forfeit the criminals right to life, or that the benefits outweigh the costs, or whatever. People support/oppose policies for different reasons. What you're doing is throwing a blanket over all death penalty supporters and all abortion opponents and saying that the positions are contradictory if they believe in them for the reasons you say. The problem is, most don't.

You're confusing very different lines of reasoning.
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: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
thett3
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1/6/2015 9:20:50 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/6/2015 9:17:33 PM, ford_prefect wrote:
At 1/6/2015 9:07:32 PM, thett3 wrote:
False dichotomy. Opposing abortion doesn't mean you have to think that human life is always worth protecting, it just means you oppose taking it in that case for whatever reason and support taking it in the other.

I don't understand how anyone could *possibly* confuse the two issues, anyway.

So can you give me a reason for why anyone would oppose abortion other than "we should not kill people?"

Most abortion opponents believe in the sanctity of human life

They consider the fetus to be a human. An innocent little baby. Are you seriously saying you can't understand why someone would view what they believe is an innocent child differently from, say, a serial killer?

I don't see you arguing that opposing kidnapping but being in favor of arresting suspects is contradictory, because it isn't. Physical similarities in actions (both die) has nothing to do with ethical similarity.
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"Don't quote me, ever." -Max

"My name is max. I'm not a big fan of slacks"- Max rapping

"Walmart should have the opportunity to bribe a politician to it's agenda" -Max

"Thett, you're really good at convincing people you're a decent person"-tulle

"You fit the character of Regina George quite nicely"- Sam

: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
thett3
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1/6/2015 9:27:42 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/6/2015 9:20:50 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 1/6/2015 9:17:33 PM, ford_prefect wrote:
At 1/6/2015 9:07:32 PM, thett3 wrote:
False dichotomy. Opposing abortion doesn't mean you have to think that human life is always worth protecting, it just means you oppose taking it in that case for whatever reason and support taking it in the other.

I don't understand how anyone could *possibly* confuse the two issues, anyway.

So can you give me a reason for why anyone would oppose abortion other than "we should not kill people?"

Most abortion opponents believe in the sanctity of human life

They consider the fetus to be a human. An innocent little baby. Are you seriously saying you can't understand why someone would view what they believe is an innocent child differently from, say, a serial killer?

I don't see you arguing that opposing kidnapping but being in favor of arresting suspects is contradictory, because it isn't. Physical similarities in actions (both die) has nothing to do with ethical similarity.

Like here's a reason to oppose abortion other than "we should not kill people": "we should not kill people who are not murderers and rapists" or something. Most people don't hold so strongly to the position that human life should always be protected in every case, no matter what, period. Things like capital punishment, killing in warfare, abortion, and euthanasia are issues for precisely the reason that we each have different boundaries on when we believe life should be protected.
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"Don't quote me, ever." -Max

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"Thett, you're really good at convincing people you're a decent person"-tulle

"You fit the character of Regina George quite nicely"- Sam

: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
ford_prefect
Posts: 4,138
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1/6/2015 9:27:42 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/6/2015 9:18:26 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 1/6/2015 9:13:14 PM, ford_prefect wrote:
At 1/6/2015 9:03:42 PM, KhaosMage wrote:
At 1/6/2015 8:56:35 PM, ford_prefect wrote:
How is it that most people are pro life in one case but pro death in the other? Either human life deserves to be protected or it doesn't. Can anyone who supports killing one group but not the other explain this inconsistency?

The distinction is usually the fetus is innocent, while the inmate is not.

That might be true, if it weren't for the fact that the justice system isn't infallible. Many inmates who are executed did not actually commit the crimes they were accused of. So is it ok to ignore these innocent victims? Either innocent human life is worthy of protection or it isn't.

Dumb. Opposing the death penalty because it might lead to innocents being executed is a noble position--but most people who support the death penalty don't say: "screw innocent life, yee haw!". They just think that certain crimes forfeit the criminals right to life, or that the benefits outweigh the costs, or whatever. People support/oppose policies for different reasons. What you're doing is throwing a blanket over all death penalty supporters and all abortion opponents and saying that the positions are contradictory if they believe in them for the reasons you say. The problem is, most don't.

Actually, if one supports the death penalty, that is exactly what one is saying. One either believes that our judicial system is infallible and can never sentence an innocent person to death, or one knows that it will happen to many people, but one simply doesnt care. If that isn't a "screw you" to innocent life, I don't know what is. If you know of any abortion opponents who have a reason other than "protecting innocent lives" then please direct them to this thread. I have yet to see any.

You're confusing very different lines of reasoning.

No, people who are against one and in favor of the other are being inconsistent. The only exception is if somebody is pro abortion and against death penalty, but doesn't believe that fetuses are human lives. While I disagree with that belief, if you accept that premise then they are at least consistent.
ford_prefect
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1/6/2015 9:32:06 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/6/2015 9:20:50 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 1/6/2015 9:17:33 PM, ford_prefect wrote:
At 1/6/2015 9:07:32 PM, thett3 wrote:
False dichotomy. Opposing abortion doesn't mean you have to think that human life is always worth protecting, it just means you oppose taking it in that case for whatever reason and support taking it in the other.

I don't understand how anyone could *possibly* confuse the two issues, anyway.

So can you give me a reason for why anyone would oppose abortion other than "we should not kill people?"

Most abortion opponents believe in the sanctity of human life

They consider the fetus to be a human. An innocent little baby. Are you seriously saying you can't understand why someone would view what they believe is an innocent child differently from, say, a serial killer?

I don't see you arguing that opposing kidnapping but being in favor of arresting suspects is contradictory, because it isn't. Physical similarities in actions (both die) has nothing to do with ethical similarity.

Bad analogy: Kidnapping/arrest is reversible, meaning you can be set free at any time if you are discovered to be innocent. Execution on the other hand is not reversible.
thett3
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1/6/2015 9:34:34 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/6/2015 9:32:06 PM, ford_prefect wrote:
At 1/6/2015 9:20:50 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 1/6/2015 9:17:33 PM, ford_prefect wrote:
At 1/6/2015 9:07:32 PM, thett3 wrote:
False dichotomy. Opposing abortion doesn't mean you have to think that human life is always worth protecting, it just means you oppose taking it in that case for whatever reason and support taking it in the other.

I don't understand how anyone could *possibly* confuse the two issues, anyway.

So can you give me a reason for why anyone would oppose abortion other than "we should not kill people?"

Most abortion opponents believe in the sanctity of human life

They consider the fetus to be a human. An innocent little baby. Are you seriously saying you can't understand why someone would view what they believe is an innocent child differently from, say, a serial killer?

I don't see you arguing that opposing kidnapping but being in favor of arresting suspects is contradictory, because it isn't. Physical similarities in actions (both die) has nothing to do with ethical similarity.

Bad analogy: Kidnapping/arrest is reversible, meaning you can be set free at any time if you are discovered to be innocent. Execution on the other hand is not reversible.

Umm...what? It's a good analogy because it captures the essence of what you're arguing. You're saying that the two positions are contradictory because they both have the same physical result, death. Kidnapping and arrest have the same physical result. The fact that one is reversible has nothing to do with your logic....
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"Don't quote me, ever." -Max

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"Thett, you're really good at convincing people you're a decent person"-tulle

"You fit the character of Regina George quite nicely"- Sam

: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
thett3
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1/6/2015 9:37:51 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
@Ford. Put your argument to the test
http://www.debate.org...
DDO Vice President

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"Don't quote me, ever." -Max

"My name is max. I'm not a big fan of slacks"- Max rapping

"Walmart should have the opportunity to bribe a politician to it's agenda" -Max

"Thett, you're really good at convincing people you're a decent person"-tulle

"You fit the character of Regina George quite nicely"- Sam

: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
ford_prefect
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1/6/2015 9:39:29 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/6/2015 9:27:42 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 1/6/2015 9:20:50 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 1/6/2015 9:17:33 PM, ford_prefect wrote:
At 1/6/2015 9:07:32 PM, thett3 wrote:
False dichotomy. Opposing abortion doesn't mean you have to think that human life is always worth protecting, it just means you oppose taking it in that case for whatever reason and support taking it in the other.

I don't understand how anyone could *possibly* confuse the two issues, anyway.

So can you give me a reason for why anyone would oppose abortion other than "we should not kill people?"

Most abortion opponents believe in the sanctity of human life

They consider the fetus to be a human. An innocent little baby. Are you seriously saying you can't understand why someone would view what they believe is an innocent child differently from, say, a serial killer?

I don't see you arguing that opposing kidnapping but being in favor of arresting suspects is contradictory, because it isn't. Physical similarities in actions (both die) has nothing to do with ethical similarity.

Like here's a reason to oppose abortion other than "we should not kill people": "we should not kill people who are not murderers and rapists"

That sounds like something one of the people who doesn't believe that our judicial system is capable of messing up would say. There are many cases of innocent "murderers" and "rapists" who swung or fried despite their innocence. 100% accuracy is impossible to achieve, so the only way to save these lives is to eliminate the death penalty. Now, if these people believe that losing innocent human lives is an acceptable trade off for something abstract like "justice" or "deterrence" then that's their opinion, but it puts them on the same level as the pro abortion crowd who thinks its ok to abort innocent fetuses in the name of abstract things like "reproductive rights"
thett3
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1/6/2015 9:44:42 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/6/2015 9:39:29 PM, ford_prefect wrote:
At 1/6/2015 9:27:42 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 1/6/2015 9:20:50 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 1/6/2015 9:17:33 PM, ford_prefect wrote:
At 1/6/2015 9:07:32 PM, thett3 wrote:
False dichotomy. Opposing abortion doesn't mean you have to think that human life is always worth protecting, it just means you oppose taking it in that case for whatever reason and support taking it in the other.

I don't understand how anyone could *possibly* confuse the two issues, anyway.

So can you give me a reason for why anyone would oppose abortion other than "we should not kill people?"

Most abortion opponents believe in the sanctity of human life

They consider the fetus to be a human. An innocent little baby. Are you seriously saying you can't understand why someone would view what they believe is an innocent child differently from, say, a serial killer?

I don't see you arguing that opposing kidnapping but being in favor of arresting suspects is contradictory, because it isn't. Physical similarities in actions (both die) has nothing to do with ethical similarity.

Like here's a reason to oppose abortion other than "we should not kill people": "we should not kill people who are not murderers and rapists"

That sounds like something one of the people who doesn't believe that our judicial system is capable of messing up would say. There are many cases of innocent "murderers" and "rapists" who swung or fried despite their innocence. 100% accuracy is impossible to achieve, so the only way to save these lives is to eliminate the death penalty. Now, if these people believe that losing innocent human lives is an acceptable trade off for something abstract like "justice" or "deterrence" then that's their opinion, but it puts them on the same level as the pro abortion crowd who thinks its ok to abort innocent fetuses in the name of abstract things like "reproductive rights"

Lol exactly. They have different values which causes them to see the issues in a different light. The pro abortion crowd thinks that reproductive rights outweighs the loss of innocent life--or they don't believe fetuses are life, or a host of other reasons--people hold positions for different reasons--the pro death penalty crowd thinks that more innocent life is saved by the death penalty, or justice is worth it, or whatever.

Your argument is basically that either you value human life, or innocent life, or you don't. Period. Either you support protecting it in every single case no matter what the cost, or you don't support it at all. Period. That just isn't the case. People have different sliding scales on what they're willing to trade off to support other goals.

They could also be ignorant and believe that the justice system really is infallible. That would be a dumb position, but not logically inconsistent even if they did support protectinginnocentlifenomatterwhatalways100%ofthetime.
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"Don't quote me, ever." -Max

"My name is max. I'm not a big fan of slacks"- Max rapping

"Walmart should have the opportunity to bribe a politician to it's agenda" -Max

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: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
ford_prefect
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1/6/2015 9:56:41 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/6/2015 9:44:42 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 1/6/2015 9:39:29 PM, ford_prefect wrote:
At 1/6/2015 9:27:42 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 1/6/2015 9:20:50 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 1/6/2015 9:17:33 PM, ford_prefect wrote:
At 1/6/2015 9:07:32 PM, thett3 wrote:
False dichotomy. Opposing abortion doesn't mean you have to think that human life is always worth protecting, it just means you oppose taking it in that case for whatever reason and support taking it in the other.

I don't understand how anyone could *possibly* confuse the two issues, anyway.

So can you give me a reason for why anyone would oppose abortion other than "we should not kill people?"

Most abortion opponents believe in the sanctity of human life

They consider the fetus to be a human. An innocent little baby. Are you seriously saying you can't understand why someone would view what they believe is an innocent child differently from, say, a serial killer?

I don't see you arguing that opposing kidnapping but being in favor of arresting suspects is contradictory, because it isn't. Physical similarities in actions (both die) has nothing to do with ethical similarity.

Like here's a reason to oppose abortion other than "we should not kill people": "we should not kill people who are not murderers and rapists"

That sounds like something one of the people who doesn't believe that our judicial system is capable of messing up would say. There are many cases of innocent "murderers" and "rapists" who swung or fried despite their innocence. 100% accuracy is impossible to achieve, so the only way to save these lives is to eliminate the death penalty. Now, if these people believe that losing innocent human lives is an acceptable trade off for something abstract like "justice" or "deterrence" then that's their opinion, but it puts them on the same level as the pro abortion crowd who thinks its ok to abort innocent fetuses in the name of abstract things like "reproductive rights"


Lol exactly. They have different values which causes them to see the issues in a different light. The pro abortion crowd thinks that reproductive rights outweighs the loss of innocent life--or they don't believe fetuses are life, or a host of other reasons--people hold positions for different reasons--the pro death penalty crowd thinks that more innocent life is saved by the death penalty, or justice is worth it, or whatever.

I already explained that believing fetuses are not human life is the only consistent way out of this, so yes. As for saving lives, studies have shown that capital punishment is not an effective deterrent, so that argument doesn't work.

Your argument is basically that either you value human life, or innocent life, or you don't. Period. Either you support protecting it in every single case no matter what the cost, or you don't support it at all. Period. That just isn't the case. People have different sliding scales on what they're willing to trade off to support other goals.

They could also be ignorant and believe that the justice system really is infallible. That would be a dumb position, but not logically inconsistent even if they did support protectinginnocentlifenomatterwhatalways100%ofthetime.

Right, so I guess I should have phrased my OP slightly differently. Most abortion opponents cite the sanctity of human life as their reason for opposing abortion. Therefore, it is logically inconsistent to also favor the death penalty, once you prove to them that the justice system is not infallible and that capital punishment doesn't act as a deterrent.
thett3
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1/6/2015 9:59:52 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/6/2015 9:56:41 PM, ford_prefect wrote:
At 1/6/2015 9:44:42 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 1/6/2015 9:39:29 PM, ford_prefect wrote:
At 1/6/2015 9:27:42 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 1/6/2015 9:20:50 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 1/6/2015 9:17:33 PM, ford_prefect wrote:
At 1/6/2015 9:07:32 PM, thett3 wrote:
False dichotomy. Opposing abortion doesn't mean you have to think that human life is always worth protecting, it just means you oppose taking it in that case for whatever reason and support taking it in the other.

I don't understand how anyone could *possibly* confuse the two issues, anyway.

So can you give me a reason for why anyone would oppose abortion other than "we should not kill people?"

Most abortion opponents believe in the sanctity of human life

They consider the fetus to be a human. An innocent little baby. Are you seriously saying you can't understand why someone would view what they believe is an innocent child differently from, say, a serial killer?

I don't see you arguing that opposing kidnapping but being in favor of arresting suspects is contradictory, because it isn't. Physical similarities in actions (both die) has nothing to do with ethical similarity.

Like here's a reason to oppose abortion other than "we should not kill people": "we should not kill people who are not murderers and rapists"

That sounds like something one of the people who doesn't believe that our judicial system is capable of messing up would say. There are many cases of innocent "murderers" and "rapists" who swung or fried despite their innocence. 100% accuracy is impossible to achieve, so the only way to save these lives is to eliminate the death penalty. Now, if these people believe that losing innocent human lives is an acceptable trade off for something abstract like "justice" or "deterrence" then that's their opinion, but it puts them on the same level as the pro abortion crowd who thinks its ok to abort innocent fetuses in the name of abstract things like "reproductive rights"


Lol exactly. They have different values which causes them to see the issues in a different light. The pro abortion crowd thinks that reproductive rights outweighs the loss of innocent life--or they don't believe fetuses are life, or a host of other reasons--people hold positions for different reasons--the pro death penalty crowd thinks that more innocent life is saved by the death penalty, or justice is worth it, or whatever.

I already explained that believing fetuses are not human life is the only consistent way out of this, so yes. As for saving lives, studies have shown that capital punishment is not an effective deterrent, so that argument doesn't work.

People don't have to agree with you that it's ineffective at saving innocent lives. You also ignored my argument about other values--the only value in question isn't innocent life. People put different stock in different values and are willing to make different trade offs. It really is that simple.

Your argument is basically that either you value human life, or innocent life, or you don't. Period. Either you support protecting it in every single case no matter what the cost, or you don't support it at all. Period. That just isn't the case. People have different sliding scales on what they're willing to trade off to support other goals.

They could also be ignorant and believe that the justice system really is infallible. That would be a dumb position, but not logically inconsistent even if they did support protectinginnocentlifenomatterwhatalways100%ofthetime.

Right, so I guess I should have phrased my OP slightly differently. Most abortion opponents cite the sanctity of human life as their reason for opposing abortion. Therefore, it is logically inconsistent to also favor the death penalty, once you prove to them that the justice system is not infallible and that capital punishment doesn't act as a deterrent.

Believing that human life is sacred doesn't mean that you believe it must be protected in every case, Ford. I don't know how many times I have to say this. Are you going to debate, or no? If you aren't willing to debate, I have better things to do.
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"Don't quote me, ever." -Max

"My name is max. I'm not a big fan of slacks"- Max rapping

"Walmart should have the opportunity to bribe a politician to it's agenda" -Max

"Thett, you're really good at convincing people you're a decent person"-tulle

"You fit the character of Regina George quite nicely"- Sam

: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
ford_prefect
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1/6/2015 10:00:43 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/6/2015 9:37:51 PM, thett3 wrote:
@Ford. Put your argument to the test
http://www.debate.org...

I appreciate the invite, but I have to respectfully decline. I dont actually do serious debates on this site. Mafia and forums are the life for me! You did raise some valid points about the way I phrased the OP, but I still stand by the general idea, which is that if you believe in the sanctity of innocent life (which most abortion opponents do) then you are being hypocritical if you support the death penalty.
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1/6/2015 10:01:52 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/6/2015 10:00:43 PM, ford_prefect wrote:
At 1/6/2015 9:37:51 PM, thett3 wrote:
@Ford. Put your argument to the test
http://www.debate.org...

I appreciate the invite, but I have to respectfully decline. I dont actually do serious debates on this site. Mafia and forums are the life for me! You did raise some valid points about the way I phrased the OP, but I still stand by the general idea, which is that if you believe in the sanctity of innocent life (which most abortion opponents do) then you are being hypocritical if you support the death penalty.

Fair enough. sorry for being a dickk. I was angry about other things and kinda took it out on you.
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: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
ford_prefect
Posts: 4,138
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1/6/2015 10:07:33 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/6/2015 10:01:52 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 1/6/2015 10:00:43 PM, ford_prefect wrote:
At 1/6/2015 9:37:51 PM, thett3 wrote:
@Ford. Put your argument to the test
http://www.debate.org...

I appreciate the invite, but I have to respectfully decline. I dont actually do serious debates on this site. Mafia and forums are the life for me! You did raise some valid points about the way I phrased the OP, but I still stand by the general idea, which is that if you believe in the sanctity of innocent life (which most abortion opponents do) then you are being hypocritical if you support the death penalty.

Fair enough. sorry for being a dickk. I was angry about other things and kinda took it out on you.

Not at all, I didn't take anything the wrong way, and I hope you don't think I was impolite either. I understand where some of your points are coming from even if I dont agree with everything 100%.
DanT
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1/6/2015 11:25:39 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/6/2015 8:56:35 PM, ford_prefect wrote:
How is it that most people are pro life in one case but pro death in the other? Either human life deserves to be protected or it doesn't. Can anyone who supports killing one group but not the other explain this inconsistency?

How can people who are pro choice support killing unborn children but be against killing convicted criminals?

There is a stark difference between killing someone who has committed a crime and someone who has not had a chance to live.
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
ford_prefect
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1/6/2015 11:52:11 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/6/2015 11:25:39 PM, DanT wrote:
At 1/6/2015 8:56:35 PM, ford_prefect wrote:
How is it that most people are pro life in one case but pro death in the other? Either human life deserves to be protected or it doesn't. Can anyone who supports killing one group but not the other explain this inconsistency?

How can people who are pro choice support killing unborn children but be against killing convicted criminals?

There is a stark difference between killing someone who has committed a crime and someone who has not had a chance to live.

Are you aware that many people are executed despite not having committed a crime? Until the judicial system can reach 100% accuracy, supporting the death penalty means supporting the death of innocent people. Do unborn children deserve life more than the falsely convicted?
KhaosMage
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1/7/2015 8:09:16 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/6/2015 9:13:14 PM, ford_prefect wrote:
At 1/6/2015 9:03:42 PM, KhaosMage wrote:
At 1/6/2015 8:56:35 PM, ford_prefect wrote:
How is it that most people are pro life in one case but pro death in the other? Either human life deserves to be protected or it doesn't. Can anyone who supports killing one group but not the other explain this inconsistency?

The distinction is usually the fetus is innocent, while the inmate is not.

That might be true, if it weren't for the fact that the justice system isn't infallible. Many inmates who are executed did not actually commit the crimes they were accused of. So is it ok to ignore these innocent victims? Either innocent human life is worthy of protection or it isn't.

The execution (pun intended) of a principle does not speak to its merit as a principle.
Just because the legal system may be flawed does not speak to the over-arching dichotomy you bring up.
A guilty man deserves death because he is not innocent, while a fetus is guilty of nothing. That is the distinction they make.

So, your counter-argument should be that all life is precious (which would be countered with "except those that do not believe that), and not "but sometimes innocents die".
ford_prefect
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1/7/2015 9:39:52 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/7/2015 8:09:16 AM, KhaosMage wrote:
At 1/6/2015 9:13:14 PM, ford_prefect wrote:
At 1/6/2015 9:03:42 PM, KhaosMage wrote:
At 1/6/2015 8:56:35 PM, ford_prefect wrote:
How is it that most people are pro life in one case but pro death in the other? Either human life deserves to be protected or it doesn't. Can anyone who supports killing one group but not the other explain this inconsistency?

The distinction is usually the fetus is innocent, while the inmate is not.

That might be true, if it weren't for the fact that the justice system isn't infallible. Many inmates who are executed did not actually commit the crimes they were accused of. So is it ok to ignore these innocent victims? Either innocent human life is worthy of protection or it isn't.

The execution (pun intended) of a principle does not speak to its merit as a principle.
Just because the legal system may be flawed does not speak to the over-arching dichotomy you bring up.
A guilty man deserves death because he is not innocent, while a fetus is guilty of nothing. That is the distinction they make.

From a philosophical standpoint, perhaps. However from a practical point of view, you have to realize that no justice system will ever be perfect. The assumption that the guilty man is, in fact, guilty, simply cannot be made in good conscience. Therefore, advocating an irreversible punishment like death means implicitly accepting the fact that innocent lives will be lost. This is the same reason that people oppose abortion, because they don't want innocent lives to be lost. Now, if you are saying that you do value innocent lives, but not so much that you would let that get in the way of killing guilty people, then you are at least being consistent. However, the Pro-Life crowd generally believes that human life is sacred. Sacred implies that it is the highest value, and that nothing should come before it. Perhaps some believe the concept of justice is more sacred than life, but I have yet to meet anyone who openly admits it. Certainly I am not aware of any branch of Christianity that teaches justice is more important than life.

So, your counter-argument should be that all life is precious (which would be countered with "except those that do not believe that), and not "but sometimes innocents die".

I still don't see the difference between the right of an unborn child to life, and the right of a wrongly convicted death row inmate to live. If you believe one should live, why not the other?
KhaosMage
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1/7/2015 10:05:27 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/7/2015 9:39:52 AM, ford_prefect wrote:
At 1/7/2015 8:09:16 AM, KhaosMage wrote:
At 1/6/2015 9:13:14 PM, ford_prefect wrote:
At 1/6/2015 9:03:42 PM, KhaosMage wrote:
At 1/6/2015 8:56:35 PM, ford_prefect wrote:
How is it that most people are pro life in one case but pro death in the other? Either human life deserves to be protected or it doesn't. Can anyone who supports killing one group but not the other explain this inconsistency?

The distinction is usually the fetus is innocent, while the inmate is not.

That might be true, if it weren't for the fact that the justice system isn't infallible. Many inmates who are executed did not actually commit the crimes they were accused of. So is it ok to ignore these innocent victims? Either innocent human life is worthy of protection or it isn't.

The execution (pun intended) of a principle does not speak to its merit as a principle.
Just because the legal system may be flawed does not speak to the over-arching dichotomy you bring up.
A guilty man deserves death because he is not innocent, while a fetus is guilty of nothing. That is the distinction they make.

From a philosophical standpoint, perhaps. However from a practical point of view, you have to realize that no justice system will ever be perfect. The assumption that the guilty man is, in fact, guilty, simply cannot be made in good conscience. Therefore, advocating an irreversible punishment like death means implicitly accepting the fact that innocent lives will be lost. This is the same reason that people oppose abortion, because they don't want innocent lives to be lost. Now, if you are saying that you do value innocent lives, but not so much that you would let that get in the way of killing guilty people, then you are at least being consistent. However, the Pro-Life crowd generally believes that human life is sacred. Sacred implies that it is the highest value, and that nothing should come before it. Perhaps some believe the concept of justice is more sacred than life, but I have yet to meet anyone who openly admits it. Certainly I am not aware of any branch of Christianity that teaches justice is more important than life.

So, your counter-argument should be that all life is precious (which would be countered with "except those that do not believe that), and not "but sometimes innocents die".

I still don't see the difference between the right of an unborn child to life, and the right of a wrongly convicted death row inmate to live. If you believe one should live, why not the other?

The death penalty assumes that guilty people are put to death. When someone asks if you are pro-death penalty, they do not respond, yeah, I don't care if they are innocent or not. It is assumed.

So, the dichotomy you asked:
Is protecting a fetus contradictory to electrocuting a man who admitted to killing five people, raping them, and the whole act is caught on film, with absolutely no doubt as to his guilt?

The dichotomy you seem to have wanted to ask:
Is protecting a fetus contradictory to supporting the death penalty in a system where innocents are wrongfully executed?

The latter dichotomy is not about principles of life and their consistency as much as they are faults in the justice system.
Bennett91
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1/7/2015 10:25:20 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/6/2015 9:03:42 PM, KhaosMage wrote:
At 1/6/2015 8:56:35 PM, ford_prefect wrote:
How is it that most people are pro life in one case but pro death in the other? Either human life deserves to be protected or it doesn't. Can anyone who supports killing one group but not the other explain this inconsistency?

The distinction is usually the fetus is innocent, while the inmate is not.

All life is sacred, except ...
KhaosMage
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1/7/2015 10:26:40 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/7/2015 10:25:20 AM, Bennett91 wrote:
At 1/6/2015 9:03:42 PM, KhaosMage wrote:
At 1/6/2015 8:56:35 PM, ford_prefect wrote:
How is it that most people are pro life in one case but pro death in the other? Either human life deserves to be protected or it doesn't. Can anyone who supports killing one group but not the other explain this inconsistency?

The distinction is usually the fetus is innocent, while the inmate is not.

All life is sacred, except ...

those who defy its sanctity.
Bennett91
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1/7/2015 10:27:47 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/6/2015 8:56:35 PM, ford_prefect wrote:
How is it that most people are pro life in one case but pro death in the other? Either human life deserves to be protected or it doesn't. Can anyone who supports killing one group but not the other explain this inconsistency?

I don't think we can judge these 2 issues as needing symmetry of opinion. They are 2 diff issues in 2 diff contexts.
KhaosMage
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1/7/2015 10:30:54 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/6/2015 8:56:35 PM, ford_prefect wrote:
How is it that most people are pro life in one case but pro death in the other? Either human life deserves to be protected or it doesn't. Can anyone who supports killing one group but not the other explain this inconsistency?

Why don't you take this one step farther, then, and ask how pro-lifers reconcile killing the man who is holding their family hostage?
ford_prefect
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1/7/2015 10:31:32 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 1/7/2015 10:27:47 AM, Bennett91 wrote:
At 1/6/2015 8:56:35 PM, ford_prefect wrote:
How is it that most people are pro life in one case but pro death in the other? Either human life deserves to be protected or it doesn't. Can anyone who supports killing one group but not the other explain this inconsistency?

I don't think we can judge these 2 issues as needing symmetry of opinion. They are 2 diff issues in 2 diff contexts.

Many people who oppose one or the other do so because they claim to believe in the sanctity of human life. I am pointing out that if you truly believe it is wrong to kill innocent unborn children, you should also believe it is wrong to kill innocent people who are wrongly convicted. Or does God only think one type of human life is sacred? By going through a trial and losing, even if you didn't commit the crime, you somehow forfeit your life's sacred status?