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Democracy and Capitalism

Rob1Billion
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6/14/2010 10:50:10 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
Are capitalism and democracy adequately reconcilable? There are many problems with capitalism that intercept the liberties granted by a democratic form of government.

1) Campaign financing - because of our advertising-rich culture (which is down-right sick in many ways), voting is legally steered by paid ads that "inform" us about candidates. Being rich has pretty much become the prime prerequisite for running for office. In essence, the same people who we need the most protection against, in order to "check" and "balance" the power (i.e., wealth) in this country, are the ones who are providing that protection. It's a classic case of putting the fox in charge of the hen-house.

Without capitalism, we would probably come up with some other sort of contest to select candidates, allowing a whole lot of people to participate in the beginning and whittling them down throughout the process. Imagine a day where an ordinary man or woman could be elected to office based solely on their character strengths and personal integrity, as opposed to our current system where it is pretty much based on how much personal wealth you have mixed with how much private-sector financial backing you can obtain by promising businesses you will make them more money after you are elected.

2) Democracy is left at the door when we enter work every day. Our day-jobs are basically "private monarchies" which do not respect our basic civil liberties. We are told to sit down, shut up, and in many ways enslaved by our employers. Many jobs that we are forced to do are completely unnecessary, and created only to give "purchasing power" to the populace. Without purchasing power we have no "right" to any type of good or service and will therefore be subjected to the worst type of conditions that a person can endure. There is no reason to believe that we all couldn't maintain our current standard of living while cutting the amount of jobs that are required to sustain it in half.

Without capitalism (i.e., currency) we could eliminate many of the jobs we are forced to participate in. Near-complete elimination of the human element in the agricultural, industrial, and service sectors could be achieved very easily, which would free up tens of millions of jobs that we are forced to endure in the current system that really produce no wealth (but are justified by their mere existence because someone decided to spend their dollar on it). Automation and high-quality products that are not meant to disintegrate quickly could (alone) accomplish this goal. Going to work can be a thing of honor/respect, privilege, and a means of self-betterment instead of the current system in which it is a thing of massive stress, subjugation, and obligation.

3) Class stratification - Democracy is the best form of government, because it lets everyone participate. However, democracy's effectiveness decreases exponentially as less and less people participate in the process. Currently, about 50% of the populace in the US votes during pres. elections, with much, much less in other types of elections. Democracy is NOT working at this point in time. If we want to increase the efficiency of our governmental system, we need to get people to the polls to vote. Our lackluster participation in the electoral system in this country is pathetic and is a direct result of our economic system. Our hierarchy of needs is being compromised at a basic level, obstructing us from being able to concentrate on more abstract concerns. In essence, the ones who need to vote the most don't vote at all and, again, the ones who we need protection from the most are doing most of the voting.

Happy debating!!
Master P is the end result of capitalism.
FREEDO
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6/14/2010 3:05:38 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Capitalism, the ultimate elitism. Democracy, decentralizing power, taking it out of the hands of the elite and into the hands of the people.

One will have to die for the other to entirely succeed.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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6/14/2010 3:13:49 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
It doesn't matter if it's Capitalism, Democracy, Communism, of any other ideology, it will always be a Plutocratic Kleptocracy of Aristocrats that always rule using these systems of exploitation.

And even if we had true Democracy, it would be tyranny of the majority and mindless collectivism. If we had true Capitalism, it would just lead the way into corporatist elitism.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
Rob1Billion
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6/14/2010 3:16:43 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/14/2010 3:05:38 PM, FREEDO wrote:
Capitalism, the ultimate elitism. Democracy, decentralizing power, taking it out of the hands of the elite and into the hands of the people.

One will have to die for the other to entirely succeed.

Amen brother Freedo.
Master P is the end result of capitalism.
Rob1Billion
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6/14/2010 3:28:08 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/14/2010 3:13:49 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
It doesn't matter if it's Capitalism, Democracy, Communism, of any other ideology, it will always be a Plutocratic Kleptocracy of Aristocrats that always rule using these systems of exploitation.

So how do we defeat these rich bastards? I believe democracy (in a different form than our own) is the answer, we just have to make it true democracy and not this psuedo money-centered political system we have now. The fact that we are a republic really isn't even that big of a deal; its the economics that are at fault.

And even if we had true Democracy, it would be tyranny of the majority and mindless collectivism. If we had true Capitalism, it would just lead the way into corporatist elitism.

At a certain level, there is no such thing as a "tyranny of the majority." Democracy is supposed to oppress the minority - the minority of the wealthy and the powerful. As far as our other laws are concerned, increasing participation in the voting process will smooth out all the rough edges.
Master P is the end result of capitalism.
Korashk
Posts: 4,597
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6/14/2010 3:29:18 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/14/2010 3:16:28 PM, FREEDO wrote:
Geo, Democracy doesn't have to be authoritarian.

"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on what's for dinner."
- Benjamin Franklin
When large numbers of otherwise-law abiding people break specific laws en masse, it's usually a fault that lies with the law. - Unknown
FREEDO
Posts: 21,057
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6/14/2010 3:35:44 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/14/2010 3:29:18 PM, Korashk wrote:
At 6/14/2010 3:16:28 PM, FREEDO wrote:
Geo, Democracy doesn't have to be authoritarian.

"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on what's for dinner."
- Benjamin Franklin

"A witty saying means nothing"
~Voltaire
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
RoyLatham
Posts: 4,488
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6/14/2010 3:36:22 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Working for someone else is completely voluntary. You can choose to start your own business and set your own work rules. All you have to do is please your customers, who in turn voluntarily choose your company. this is completely fair.

I fair that the people who are interested enough in voting get toolkit the government. If you have no idea what is going on, you shouldn't vote. If anything, the voting requirements should be raised, not lowered -- how about requiring that you name the governor and the two Senators from your state?

People who feel strongly about an issue get to spend their money publicizing what they believe. The alternative is to require that the flat earth get equal time with round earth theory. Spending money on something does not guarantee agreement. Ultra-rich Ross Perot ran for president and lost. George Soros dumps megabucks into Leftist causes, and that has not guaranteed success. It's fair that people get to spend money as they wish, because any other system ends up with an elite controlling your money.
Rob1Billion
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6/14/2010 3:42:16 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/14/2010 3:29:18 PM, Korashk wrote:
At 6/14/2010 3:16:28 PM, FREEDO wrote:
Geo, Democracy doesn't have to be authoritarian.

"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on what's for dinner."
- Benjamin Franklin

A catchy phrase, but can you give examples of it in today's society?
Master P is the end result of capitalism.
FREEDO
Posts: 21,057
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6/14/2010 3:48:41 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/14/2010 3:36:22 PM, RoyLatham wrote:
Working for someone else is completely voluntary. You can choose to start your own business and set your own work rules. All you have to do is please your customers, who in turn voluntarily choose your company. this is completely fair.

You call do my orders or you get fired and starve freedom? Or fair? Tis laughable if it wasn't so disgusting.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
Korashk
Posts: 4,597
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6/14/2010 3:49:54 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/14/2010 3:42:16 PM, Rob1Billion wrote:
At 6/14/2010 3:29:18 PM, Korashk wrote:
At 6/14/2010 3:16:28 PM, FREEDO wrote:
Geo, Democracy doesn't have to be authoritarian.

"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on what's for dinner."
- Benjamin Franklin

A catchy phrase, but can you give examples of it in today's society?

Prostitution, gay marriage, drugs, buying and selling human organs.
When large numbers of otherwise-law abiding people break specific laws en masse, it's usually a fault that lies with the law. - Unknown
Korashk
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6/14/2010 3:51:26 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/14/2010 3:48:41 PM, FREEDO wrote:
At 6/14/2010 3:36:22 PM, RoyLatham wrote:
Working for someone else is completely voluntary. You can choose to start your own business and set your own work rules. All you have to do is please your customers, who in turn voluntarily choose your company. this is completely fair.

You call do my orders or you get fired and starve freedom? Or fair? Tis laughable if it wasn't so disgusting.


Who gave you the job in the first place?
When large numbers of otherwise-law abiding people break specific laws en masse, it's usually a fault that lies with the law. - Unknown
FREEDO
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6/14/2010 3:52:44 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/14/2010 3:49:54 PM, Korashk wrote:
At 6/14/2010 3:42:16 PM, Rob1Billion wrote:
At 6/14/2010 3:29:18 PM, Korashk wrote:
At 6/14/2010 3:16:28 PM, FREEDO wrote:
Geo, Democracy doesn't have to be authoritarian.

"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on what's for dinner."
- Benjamin Franklin

A catchy phrase, but can you give examples of it in today's society?

Prostitution, gay marriage, drugs, buying and selling human organs.

These are issues with one's person. Economics needs democracy or we will(and do) have wide-spread exploitation.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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6/14/2010 3:52:46 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/14/2010 3:35:44 PM, FREEDO wrote:
At 6/14/2010 3:29:18 PM, Korashk wrote:
At 6/14/2010 3:16:28 PM, FREEDO wrote:
Geo, Democracy doesn't have to be authoritarian.

"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on what's for dinner."
- Benjamin Franklin

"A witty saying means nothing"
~Voltaire

*Facepalm*
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
FREEDO
Posts: 21,057
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6/14/2010 3:54:02 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/14/2010 3:51:26 PM, Korashk wrote:
At 6/14/2010 3:48:41 PM, FREEDO wrote:
At 6/14/2010 3:36:22 PM, RoyLatham wrote:
Working for someone else is completely voluntary. You can choose to start your own business and set your own work rules. All you have to do is please your customers, who in turn voluntarily choose your company. this is completely fair.

You call do my orders or you get fired and starve freedom? Or fair? Tis laughable if it wasn't so disgusting.


Who gave you the job in the first place?

Gave? Who does the job?!
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
FREEDO
Posts: 21,057
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6/14/2010 3:55:19 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/14/2010 3:52:46 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 6/14/2010 3:35:44 PM, FREEDO wrote:
At 6/14/2010 3:29:18 PM, Korashk wrote:
At 6/14/2010 3:16:28 PM, FREEDO wrote:
Geo, Democracy doesn't have to be authoritarian.

"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on what's for dinner."
- Benjamin Franklin

"A witty saying means nothing"
~Voltaire

*Facepalm*

Geo, Democracy does not have to be authoritarian! The quote fails.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
Korashk
Posts: 4,597
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6/14/2010 3:59:04 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/14/2010 3:55:19 PM, FREEDO wrote:
At 6/14/2010 3:52:46 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 6/14/2010 3:35:44 PM, FREEDO wrote:
At 6/14/2010 3:29:18 PM, Korashk wrote:
At 6/14/2010 3:16:28 PM, FREEDO wrote:
Geo, Democracy doesn't have to be authoritarian.

"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on what's for dinner."
- Benjamin Franklin

"A witty saying means nothing"
~Voltaire

*Facepalm*

Geo, Democracy does not have to be authoritarian! The quote fails.

Think of it this way. In a democratic society you have 1/300,000,000 of a oice in what you are allowed to do. To express that as a percentage your voice when it comes to things you are able to do counts for .0000000033% of the decision.
When large numbers of otherwise-law abiding people break specific laws en masse, it's usually a fault that lies with the law. - Unknown
FREEDO
Posts: 21,057
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6/14/2010 4:01:52 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/14/2010 3:59:04 PM, Korashk wrote:
At 6/14/2010 3:55:19 PM, FREEDO wrote:
At 6/14/2010 3:52:46 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 6/14/2010 3:35:44 PM, FREEDO wrote:
At 6/14/2010 3:29:18 PM, Korashk wrote:
At 6/14/2010 3:16:28 PM, FREEDO wrote:
Geo, Democracy doesn't have to be authoritarian.

"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on what's for dinner."
- Benjamin Franklin

"A witty saying means nothing"
~Voltaire

*Facepalm*

Geo, Democracy does not have to be authoritarian! The quote fails.

Think of it this way. In a democratic society you have 1/300,000,000 of a oice in what you are allowed to do. To express that as a percentage your voice when it comes to things you are able to do counts for .0000000033% of the decision.

I'm also for localization.

You see democracy as taking away personal choice.

I see it as expanding it by abolishing hierarchy. Decentralizing power.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
Rob1Billion
Posts: 1,338
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6/14/2010 4:02:22 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Working for someone else is completely voluntary.

Not really... If you choose not to work at a designated spot of employement then you will be impovershed and stricken from society. I don't see a real "choice" here, when property owners still hold all the cards.

You can choose to start your own business and set your own work rules.

Most people do not have this opportunity. Also, most people are not interested in being entrepreneurs. I'll give you the assumption, for now, that successful entrepreneurs find thee playing field quite "fair."

All you have to do is please your customers, who in turn voluntarily choose your company. this is completely fair.

Your definition of fair is flawed. People with more wealth have more advantages. This is the complete opposite of fair.

I fair that the people who are interested enough in voting get toolkit the government. If you have no idea what is going on, you shouldn't vote. If anything, the voting requirements should be raised, not lowered -- how about requiring that you name the governor and the two Senators from your state?

I personally don't think that smarter people, with smarter votes, lead to smarter laws. First off, even a smart person with a lack of information is prone to make the wrong choice. The only way for all the information to be presented is for everyone to participate. If a certain law is incredibly unjust or inequitable, it will be voted against. If it still gets passed, its inequities will be more obvious and it will be more likely to be struck down in the days that follow.

People who feel strongly about an issue get to spend their money publicizing what they believe. The alternative is to require that the flat earth get equal time with round earth theory. Spending money on something does not guarantee agreement. Ultra-rich Ross Perot ran for president and lost. George Soros dumps megabucks into Leftist causes, and that has not guaranteed success. It's fair that people get to spend money as they wish, because any other system ends up with an elite controlling your money.

There are rich people who have failed to get elected, can you believe it? It's almost hard to fathom, considering how much of our politics is linked to dollars.

A few exceptions do little to hide the overwhelmingly obvious trend of money in politics. Furthermore, your example of Ross Perot pits him against two very rich, powerful individuals: The President of the US and a Governor of Arkansas. Just because Perot may have technically had more money than these 2 fellows does little to make your point. After all, I'm talking about defending common folk, not defending *just* the governors and past Presidents who were only half-way rich.

Regarding your flat v round earth comment, I will need you to elaborate.
Master P is the end result of capitalism.
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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6/14/2010 4:02:31 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/14/2010 3:55:19 PM, FREEDO wrote:
At 6/14/2010 3:52:46 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 6/14/2010 3:35:44 PM, FREEDO wrote:
At 6/14/2010 3:29:18 PM, Korashk wrote:
At 6/14/2010 3:16:28 PM, FREEDO wrote:
Geo, Democracy doesn't have to be authoritarian.

"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on what's for dinner."
- Benjamin Franklin

"A witty saying means nothing"
~Voltaire

*Facepalm*

Geo, Democracy does not have to be authoritarian! The quote fails.

No, it was your use of the Voltaire quote that fails.

Many times quotes are not just witting sayings. They can prove a point, strike a thought, make a subtle argument.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
Rob1Billion
Posts: 1,338
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6/14/2010 4:05:11 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/14/2010 4:02:31 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 6/14/2010 3:55:19 PM, FREEDO wrote:
At 6/14/2010 3:52:46 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 6/14/2010 3:35:44 PM, FREEDO wrote:
At 6/14/2010 3:29:18 PM, Korashk wrote:
At 6/14/2010 3:16:28 PM, FREEDO wrote:
Geo, Democracy doesn't have to be authoritarian.

"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on what's for dinner."
- Benjamin Franklin

"A witty saying means nothing"
~Voltaire

*Facepalm*

Geo, Democracy does not have to be authoritarian! The quote fails.

No, it was your use of the Voltaire quote that fails.

Many times quotes are not just witting sayings. They can prove a point, strike a thought, make a subtle argument.

And many times they are pure rhetoric, and give you a faulty perspective on an issue. Take any conservative one-liner, for example.
Master P is the end result of capitalism.
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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6/14/2010 4:05:22 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
And yes, Democracy is authoritarian because other people who are not me are deciding the laws that dictate my life.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
FREEDO
Posts: 21,057
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6/14/2010 4:08:53 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/14/2010 4:05:22 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
And yes, Democracy is authoritarian because other people who are not me are deciding the laws that dictate my life.

Simply not true.
As you know, I'm an Anarchist.
If a democracy is entered into by voluntary contract that it is in no way authoritarian.
What is authoritarian is the alternative; hierarchy.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
Rob1Billion
Posts: 1,338
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6/14/2010 4:10:48 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/14/2010 3:49:54 PM, Korashk wrote:
At 6/14/2010 3:42:16 PM, Rob1Billion wrote:
At 6/14/2010 3:29:18 PM, Korashk wrote:
At 6/14/2010 3:16:28 PM, FREEDO wrote:
Geo, Democracy doesn't have to be authoritarian.

"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on what's for dinner."
- Benjamin Franklin

A catchy phrase, but can you give examples of it in today's society?

Prostitution, gay marriage, drugs, buying and selling human organs.

Laws for all of these things are being molded every day. California is making huge progress towards medical marijuana, and politicians and activists are joining the cause every day. Drug laws are my most passionate endeavor, and although I am frustrated with the current state of them I still have faith for the people to prevail.

Gay rights are stronger than ever, and there is soon to be a butch dyke on the Supreme Court. I heard she is going to start wearing a spiked collar during the proceedings... As far as the other issues, your point is taken, but we have good reasons for the laws that are there. They are not senselessly unfair, and most people agree that prostitution, drugs, and organ selling is less harmful if outlawed. What is the alternative? Even with democracy, we still need to have rules...
Master P is the end result of capitalism.
Korashk
Posts: 4,597
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6/14/2010 4:11:20 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/14/2010 3:54:02 PM, FREEDO wrote:
At 6/14/2010 3:51:26 PM, Korashk wrote:
At 6/14/2010 3:48:41 PM, FREEDO wrote:
At 6/14/2010 3:36:22 PM, RoyLatham wrote:
Working for someone else is completely voluntary. You can choose to start your own business and set your own work rules. All you have to do is please your customers, who in turn voluntarily choose your company. this is completely fair.

You call do my orders or you get fired and starve freedom? Or fair? Tis laughable if it wasn't so disgusting.


Who gave you the job in the first place?

Gave? Who does the job?!

The answer is your employer, you're forgetting that without him/her your job wouldn't exist. Being hired to do the work meant jack squat, it doesn't give you any vioce in staying employed because you did nothing to make the job available.
When large numbers of otherwise-law abiding people break specific laws en masse, it's usually a fault that lies with the law. - Unknown
Rob1Billion
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6/14/2010 4:13:04 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/14/2010 4:05:22 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
And yes, Democracy is authoritarian because other people who are not me are deciding the laws that dictate my life.

But you have just as much a say as anyone else. We depend on each other, Geo, whether we like it or not in many aspects of our life, and politics/laws is no exception. If your cause is just, you will not be alone in fighting for it.
Master P is the end result of capitalism.
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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6/14/2010 4:14:52 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/14/2010 4:08:53 PM, FREEDO wrote:
At 6/14/2010 4:05:22 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
And yes, Democracy is authoritarian because other people who are not me are deciding the laws that dictate my life.

Simply not true.
As you know, I'm an Anarchist.
If a democracy is entered into by voluntary contract that it is in no way authoritarian.

So a Democratic government can put forth all these laws, and simply because I didn't volunteer to be a part of it, I can live lawlessly and break all the laws set by the voluntary government?

What is authoritarian is the alternative; hierarchy.

What? How is hierarchy the alternative of Democracy? As you can see, there is a hierarchy between me and the current Democratic leaders who were elected.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
FREEDO
Posts: 21,057
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6/14/2010 4:16:16 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/14/2010 4:11:20 PM, Korashk wrote:
At 6/14/2010 3:54:02 PM, FREEDO wrote:
At 6/14/2010 3:51:26 PM, Korashk wrote:
At 6/14/2010 3:48:41 PM, FREEDO wrote:
At 6/14/2010 3:36:22 PM, RoyLatham wrote:
Working for someone else is completely voluntary. You can choose to start your own business and set your own work rules. All you have to do is please your customers, who in turn voluntarily choose your company. this is completely fair.

You call do my orders or you get fired and starve freedom? Or fair? Tis laughable if it wasn't so disgusting.


Who gave you the job in the first place?

Gave? Who does the job?!

The answer is your employer, you're forgetting that without him/her your job wouldn't exist. Being hired to do the work meant jack squat, it doesn't give you any vioce in staying employed because you did nothing to make the job available.

You miss that it doesn't have to be that way. The worker can be the sustainer and provider of their own job. Worker-self-management.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
Korashk
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6/14/2010 4:16:18 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/14/2010 4:13:04 PM, Rob1Billion wrote:
At 6/14/2010 4:05:22 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
And yes, Democracy is authoritarian because other people who are not me are deciding the laws that dictate my life.

But you have just as much a say as anyone else. We depend on each other, Geo, whether we like it or not in many aspects of our life, and politics/laws is no exception. If your cause is just, you will not be alone in fighting for it.

If you have any control over what I do in a consensual setting then that it amount is infinitely larger than it should be.
When large numbers of otherwise-law abiding people break specific laws en masse, it's usually a fault that lies with the law. - Unknown