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OMG I'm libertarian...

Blade-of-Truth
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2/4/2015 3:14:20 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
I'm a fiscal conservative, and social liberal. What am I? Is there a political party for me? How about a presidential hopeful that represents my views?

These were the questions in my mind tonight. Google came to the rescue and told me I was a libertarian. I honestly had no idea. Mostly because I don't think this far into politics... I mean, I watch political debates and keep up with international news, but I never got into the political party aspect of it all.

So, now what do I do? Who do I back in terms of presidential hopefuls?

Who are my fellow libertarians here?

Am I actually a libertarian? What exactly do they stand for?

I know Google could answer these questions too, but I want to talk to live people, not rely on searches.
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gingerbread-man
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2/4/2015 5:14:36 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/4/2015 3:14:20 AM, Blade-of-Truth wrote:
I'm a fiscal conservative, and social liberal. What am I? Is there a political party for me? How about a presidential hopeful that represents my views?

These were the questions in my mind tonight. Google came to the rescue and told me I was a libertarian. I honestly had no idea. Mostly because I don't think this far into politics... I mean, I watch political debates and keep up with international news, but I never got into the political party aspect of it all.

So, now what do I do? Who do I back in terms of presidential hopefuls?

Who are my fellow libertarians here?

Am I actually a libertarian? What exactly do they stand for?

I know Google could answer these questions too, but I want to talk to live people, not rely on searches.

I think you will find that Google got it wrong....It should have popped up with Presbyterian.
Not my gumdrop buttons!

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Welfare-Worker
Posts: 1,155
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2/4/2015 6:30:50 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/4/2015 3:14:20 AM, Blade-of-Truth wrote:
I'm a fiscal conservative, and social liberal. What am I? Is there a political party for me? How about a presidential hopeful that represents my views?

These were the questions in my mind tonight. Google came to the rescue and told me I was a libertarian. I honestly had no idea. Mostly because I don't think this far into politics... I mean, I watch political debates and keep up with international news, but I never got into the political party aspect of it all.

So, now what do I do? Who do I back in terms of presidential hopefuls?

Who are my fellow libertarians here?

Am I actually a libertarian? What exactly do they stand for?

I know Google could answer these questions too, but I want to talk to live people, not rely on searches.
If you are a Libertarian, terms like "fiscal conservative" and "social liberal" are relative, and may be misunderstood by hard line conservative Republicans.
I have been a card carrying (registered voter) Libertarian for well over 30 years.
There is a party platform you can google, I haven't looked t it for a few years, I am not a fanatic. There are few people who buy into the Republican or Democratic platform lock, stock and barrel. Deviation is not at unusual, regardless of affiliation.

I recognized a long time ago that R and D politicians are skunks and polecats. The similarities outweigh the differences.
Actual voters are a different issue, but I do not vote for voters, I vote for politicians.
That is an important distinction.

As a flower child of the 60's (you can call me a hippie if you want, it will not offend me, but there is a difference), we had certain political ambitions, that were considered 'liberal', and they have gotten lost by the wayside.
Others have gotten blown way out of proportion.
Others have remained.

So here is my version of Libertarian social liberal, that is consistent with my flower child ancestry:
Stay out of my rec room.
Stay out of my bedroom.
Stay out of my garden.
Stay out of my refrigerator.
Stay out of my garage.
Stay out of my spiritual beliefs.
Just stay the heck away from my home and property. (Liberals today say 'I need to keep you safe, let me inspect your everything.')
If I am not bothering you, don't bother me.
People should take care of people, neighbors take care of neighbors. (This has been perverted by Liberals, to 'The government should take care of people'.)

The need for government 'Welfare' should be limited to War veterans and their family. Maybe a few other, very limited instances, that I have NEVER seen examples of -in the current system - since 1977.
Social Security as one leg of a three legged retirement program is a good thing. it also protects unexpected widows and surviving children. It needs trimmed in some areas.

Fiscal conservative/liberal issues were not a big concern to the 'Flower Childs'.
We never wanted bigger government - we wanted bigger 'people' involvement.
We never wanted more taxing and spending. If anything, we thought government spending was too big (Harry Anslinger and J. Edgar Hoover come to mind)
We thought the Peace Corp was a good example of a government program and use of money. We also thought it was a better idea for improving the lives of people in Third World Countries, compared to open borders in our own country.

We wanted the government off our backs, so we could make the world a better place.
We did not see it as any sort of cure.
It was 'the enemy'.
That certainly implies smaller government, and fiscal Conservatism.
'implies', heck it SCREAMS smaller government.

The children of those who wanted to legalize pot, want to outlaw tobacco, pot, burning leaves, driving cars, motorcycles, and the list grows, with no end in sight.
The Freedom loving Flower Children have been replace by the Nanny State Extraordinaire, and I for one am not happy about it.

A vote for a Libertarian is a vote against the establishment, and that is as flower child as you can get.
Wylted
Posts: 21,167
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2/4/2015 6:36:05 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/4/2015 3:14:20 AM, Blade-of-Truth wrote:
I'm a fiscal conservative, and social liberal. What am I? Is there a political party for me? How about a presidential hopeful that represents my views?

Rand Paul

These were the questions in my mind tonight. Google came to the rescue and told me I was a libertarian. I honestly had no idea. Mostly because I don't think this far into politics... I mean, I watch political debates and keep up with international news, but I never got into the political party aspect of it all.

So, now what do I do? Who do I back in terms of presidential hopefuls?

You vote for the most libertarian republican candidate and when they lose, you still vote republican. That's what I do anyway.

Who are my fellow libertarians here?

Hi

Am I actually a libertarian? What exactly do they stand for?

You are. Social freedom and economic freedom which is what you indicated. Republicans are just for economic freedom and Democrats are just for social freedoms.

I know Google could answer these questions too, but I want to talk to live people, not rely on searches.

Google is God.
Chang29
Posts: 732
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2/4/2015 7:18:16 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
It is all a libertarian plot to take over the world, and ...... leave you alone!
A free market anti-capitalist

If it can be de-centralized, it will be de-centralized.
Blade-of-Truth
Posts: 5,020
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2/4/2015 11:07:59 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/4/2015 5:14:36 AM, gingerbread-man wrote:
At 2/4/2015 3:14:20 AM, Blade-of-Truth wrote:
I'm a fiscal conservative, and social liberal. What am I? Is there a political party for me? How about a presidential hopeful that represents my views?

These were the questions in my mind tonight. Google came to the rescue and told me I was a libertarian. I honestly had no idea. Mostly because I don't think this far into politics... I mean, I watch political debates and keep up with international news, but I never got into the political party aspect of it all.

So, now what do I do? Who do I back in terms of presidential hopefuls?

Who are my fellow libertarians here?

Am I actually a libertarian? What exactly do they stand for?

I know Google could answer these questions too, but I want to talk to live people, not rely on searches.

I think you will find that Google got it wrong....It should have popped up with Presbyterian.

What does religion have to do with it? I went to a Presbyterian church one time and found it to be extremely boring.
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Blade-of-Truth
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2/4/2015 11:08:34 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/4/2015 4:12:41 AM, 18Karl wrote:
OMG read alot of Herbert Spencer.

Any work in particular? Or just everything he's ever written?
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Blade-of-Truth
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2/4/2015 11:47:05 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/4/2015 6:30:50 AM, Welfare-Worker wrote:
At 2/4/2015 3:14:20 AM, Blade-of-Truth wrote:
I'm a fiscal conservative, and social liberal. What am I? Is there a political party for me? How about a presidential hopeful that represents my views?

These were the questions in my mind tonight. Google came to the rescue and told me I was a libertarian. I honestly had no idea. Mostly because I don't think this far into politics... I mean, I watch political debates and keep up with international news, but I never got into the political party aspect of it all.

So, now what do I do? Who do I back in terms of presidential hopefuls?

Who are my fellow libertarians here?

Am I actually a libertarian? What exactly do they stand for?

I know Google could answer these questions too, but I want to talk to live people, not rely on searches.
If you are a Libertarian, terms like "fiscal conservative" and "social liberal" are relative, and may be misunderstood by hard line conservative Republicans.
I have been a card carrying (registered voter) Libertarian for well over 30 years.

I think I'm registered independent. I'm not sure because I didn't vote for the past two elections. I just couldn't support Obama, and in the last election I didn't support Romney either, in my opinion they can both go suck it and neither were getting my vote.

There is a party platform you can google, I haven't looked t it for a few years, I am not a fanatic. There are few people who buy into the Republican or Democratic platform lock, stock and barrel. Deviation is not at unusual, regardless of affiliation.

That's what it was for me my whole life. I found that sometimes I liked democratic principles and other times I liked republican principles, it really depended on the policy they were placing them on. That's why I never knew what I was, because I ended up agreeing with both sides on different things and sometimes I disagreed with both sides.

I recognized a long time ago that R and D politicians are skunks and polecats. The similarities outweigh the differences.

It's two faces for the same body. I'd agree with you in that respect.

Actual voters are a different issue, but I do not vote for voters, I vote for politicians.
That is an important distinction.

As a flower child of the 60's (you can call me a hippie if you want, it will not offend me, but there is a difference), we had certain political ambitions, that were considered 'liberal', and they have gotten lost by the wayside.
Others have gotten blown way out of proportion.
Others have remained.

So here is my version of Libertarian social liberal, that is consistent with my flower child ancestry:
Stay out of my rec room.
Stay out of my bedroom.
Stay out of my garden.
Stay out of my refrigerator.
Stay out of my garage.
Stay out of my spiritual beliefs.
Just stay the heck away from my home and property. (Liberals today say 'I need to keep you safe, let me inspect your everything.')

I can agree with some of those sentiments.

If I am not bothering you, don't bother me.
People should take care of people, neighbors take care of neighbors. (This has been perverted by Liberals, to 'The government should take care of people'.)

I agree with this for the most part as well. We've lost that neighborly touch. I doubt many people even know the full names of their neighbors.

The need for government 'Welfare' should be limited to War veterans and their family. Maybe a few other, very limited instances, that I have NEVER seen examples of -in the current system - since 1977.

I believe we need stricter standards for welfare, and more efficient means of exposing welfare fraud. Lazy people piss me off.

Social Security as one leg of a three legged retirement program is a good thing. it also protects unexpected widows and surviving children. It needs trimmed in some areas.

I hate social security. Everyone knows that my generation won't see a dime of it, yet I'm still paying into it. It's some bvllshit.

Fiscal conservative/liberal issues were not a big concern to the 'Flower Childs'.
We never wanted bigger government - we wanted bigger 'people' involvement.
We never wanted more taxing and spending. If anything, we thought government spending was too big (Harry Anslinger and J. Edgar Hoover come to mind)
We thought the Peace Corp was a good example of a government program and use of money. We also thought it was a better idea for improving the lives of people in Third World Countries, compared to open borders in our own country.

We wanted the government off our backs, so we could make the world a better place.
We did not see it as any sort of cure.
It was 'the enemy'.
That certainly implies smaller government, and fiscal Conservatism.
'implies', heck it SCREAMS smaller government.

The children of those who wanted to legalize pot, want to outlaw tobacco, pot, burning leaves, driving cars, motorcycles, and the list grows, with no end in sight.
The Freedom loving Flower Children have been replace by the Nanny State Extraordinaire, and I for one am not happy about it.

A vote for a Libertarian is a vote against the establishment, and that is as flower child as you can get.

I mean, I'm not 100% against the establishment, but I'm more against it than I am supportive of it.
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Blade-of-Truth
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2/4/2015 11:50:23 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/4/2015 6:36:05 AM, Wylted wrote:
At 2/4/2015 3:14:20 AM, Blade-of-Truth wrote:
I'm a fiscal conservative, and social liberal. What am I? Is there a political party for me? How about a presidential hopeful that represents my views?

Rand Paul

Really? I'm kinda happy you said that because I actually really do like him and would vote for him in a heartbeat should he ever run for office. I'm happy to know that as a libertarian he's my guy, because he was my guy before I came to this realization.

These were the questions in my mind tonight. Google came to the rescue and told me I was a libertarian. I honestly had no idea. Mostly because I don't think this far into politics... I mean, I watch political debates and keep up with international news, but I never got into the political party aspect of it all.

So, now what do I do? Who do I back in terms of presidential hopefuls?

You vote for the most libertarian republican candidate and when they lose, you still vote republican. That's what I do anyway.

For awhile I thought I was a tea party guy but realized that I wasn't. I can see how voting for the most libertarian republican would be my best bet though.

Who are my fellow libertarians here?

Hi

Wassup :)

Am I actually a libertarian? What exactly do they stand for?

You are. Social freedom and economic freedom which is what you indicated. Republicans are just for economic freedom and Democrats are just for social freedoms.

Yup. Okay, I'm going to update my profile now.

I know Google could answer these questions too, but I want to talk to live people, not rely on searches.

Google is God.

Agreed 100%
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gingerbread-man
Posts: 301
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2/4/2015 2:30:26 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/4/2015 11:07:59 AM, Blade-of-Truth wrote:
At 2/4/2015 5:14:36 AM, gingerbread-man wrote:
At 2/4/2015 3:14:20 AM, Blade-of-Truth wrote:
I'm a fiscal conservative, and social liberal. What am I? Is there a political party for me? How about a presidential hopeful that represents my views?

These were the questions in my mind tonight. Google came to the rescue and told me I was a libertarian. I honestly had no idea. Mostly because I don't think this far into politics... I mean, I watch political debates and keep up with international news, but I never got into the political party aspect of it all.

So, now what do I do? Who do I back in terms of presidential hopefuls?

Who are my fellow libertarians here?

Am I actually a libertarian? What exactly do they stand for?

I know Google could answer these questions too, but I want to talk to live people, not rely on searches.

I think you will find that Google got it wrong....It should have popped up with Presbyterian.

What does religion have to do with it? I went to a Presbyterian church one time and found it to be extremely boring.

Pressy's also tend to be conservative (hence the boring service), with a social leaning...and most importantly it ryhmes ;o)
Not my gumdrop buttons!

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18Karl
Posts: 351
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2/4/2015 5:17:00 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/4/2015 11:08:34 AM, Blade-of-Truth wrote:
At 2/4/2015 4:12:41 AM, 18Karl wrote:
OMG read alot of Herbert Spencer.

Any work in particular? Or just everything he's ever written?

Social Statics. He has some interesting comments there about the State.
praise the lord Chin Chin
Fly
Posts: 2,042
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2/4/2015 11:14:07 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Fiscal conservative/social liberal is a pretty vague and incomplete notion of what libertarianism is.

"Fiscal conservative" really just means that one doesn't spend more than one gets in revenue. Anti-credit/anti-debt in other words. But it has become an umbrella term for low taxes in the Republican Party. Note that the GOP spends into debt as much as anyone-- it is the low taxation that is the fundamental principle of "fiscal conservatism" for them. Deregulation/lassez faire capitalism are also under that umbrella.

But libertarians want much more than that, in that they want much less government than that. They subscribe to a pre Civil War model of federal government involvement. If it isn't specifically enumerated in the US Constitution, the federal government has no authority to do it. Libertarians would probably go even one step further and eliminate the US Postal Service. They believe in minimal oversight of commerce, to the point where many believe that even fraud should be legal and taken care of by pure market forces. They disagree with the existence of the federal reserve system. See: Austrian school of economics.

Libertarians believe in privatization of most things that we have just taken for granted are a government function-- roads, highways, education, welfare, public transit, etc.

One important aspect of the ideology that has not been mentioned yet is foreign policy. Libertarians believe in pretty strict non-interventionalism, to the point of not even doling out foreign aid. They also believe in rolling back the military, spending less on it, pulling out of foreign countries, and keeping strictly a defensive force for the US alone.

So, true libertarianism is much more than merely taking what one feels is the best of both parties at present. That is why we will never see it put into practice...
"You don't have a right to be a jerk."
--Religion Forum's hypocrite extraordinaire serving up lulz
Blade-of-Truth
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2/5/2015 12:03:11 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/4/2015 2:30:26 PM, gingerbread-man wrote:
At 2/4/2015 11:07:59 AM, Blade-of-Truth wrote:
At 2/4/2015 5:14:36 AM, gingerbread-man wrote:
At 2/4/2015 3:14:20 AM, Blade-of-Truth wrote:
I'm a fiscal conservative, and social liberal. What am I? Is there a political party for me? How about a presidential hopeful that represents my views?

These were the questions in my mind tonight. Google came to the rescue and told me I was a libertarian. I honestly had no idea. Mostly because I don't think this far into politics... I mean, I watch political debates and keep up with international news, but I never got into the political party aspect of it all.

So, now what do I do? Who do I back in terms of presidential hopefuls?

Who are my fellow libertarians here?

Am I actually a libertarian? What exactly do they stand for?

I know Google could answer these questions too, but I want to talk to live people, not rely on searches.

I think you will find that Google got it wrong....It should have popped up with Presbyterian.

What does religion have to do with it? I went to a Presbyterian church one time and found it to be extremely boring.

Pressy's also tend to be conservative (hence the boring service), with a social leaning...and most importantly it ryhmes ;o)

Oh okay, lol, got it
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Blade-of-Truth
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2/5/2015 12:05:14 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/4/2015 5:17:00 PM, 18Karl wrote:
At 2/4/2015 11:08:34 AM, Blade-of-Truth wrote:
At 2/4/2015 4:12:41 AM, 18Karl wrote:
OMG read alot of Herbert Spencer.

Any work in particular? Or just everything he's ever written?

Social Statics. He has some interesting comments there about the State.

Okay, I'll see if I can find a .pdf file of it online. If not, I'll check out my local library.
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18Karl
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2/5/2015 2:06:53 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/5/2015 12:05:14 AM, Blade-of-Truth wrote:
At 2/4/2015 5:17:00 PM, 18Karl wrote:
At 2/4/2015 11:08:34 AM, Blade-of-Truth wrote:
At 2/4/2015 4:12:41 AM, 18Karl wrote:
OMG read alot of Herbert Spencer.

Any work in particular? Or just everything he's ever written?

Social Statics. He has some interesting comments there about the State.

Okay, I'll see if I can find a .pdf file of it online. If not, I'll check out my local library.

http://oll.libertyfund.org...
praise the lord Chin Chin
Welfare-Worker
Posts: 1,155
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2/5/2015 2:14:23 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/4/2015 11:14:07 PM, Fly wrote:
Fiscal conservative/social liberal is a pretty vague and incomplete notion of what libertarianism is.

"Fiscal conservative" really just means that one doesn't spend more than one gets in revenue. Anti-credit/anti-debt in other words. But it has become an umbrella term for low taxes in the Republican Party. Note that the GOP spends into debt as much as anyone-- it is the low taxation that is the fundamental principle of "fiscal conservatism" for them. Deregulation/lassez faire capitalism are also under that umbrella.

But libertarians want much more than that, in that they want much less government than that. They subscribe to a pre Civil War model of federal government involvement. If it isn't specifically enumerated in the US Constitution, the federal government has no authority to do it. Libertarians would probably go even one step further and eliminate the US Postal Service. They believe in minimal oversight of commerce, to the point where many believe that even fraud should be legal and taken care of by pure market forces. They disagree with the existence of the federal reserve system. See: Austrian school of economics.

Libertarians believe in privatization of most things that we have just taken for granted are a government function-- roads, highways, education, welfare, public transit, etc.

One important aspect of the ideology that has not been mentioned yet is foreign policy. Libertarians believe in pretty strict non-interventionalism, to the point of not even doling out foreign aid. They also believe in rolling back the military, spending less on it, pulling out of foreign countries, and keeping strictly a defensive force for the US alone.

So, true libertarianism is much more than merely taking what one feels is the best of both parties at present. That is why we will never see it put into practice...

Can you provide anything to show that the Libertarian party wants to privatize roads and highways, which would include bridges?
The constitution requires 'postal roads' to deliver mail - what do you think is the party position on that?
http://www.ronpaulforums.com...
Fly
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2/5/2015 6:52:14 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/5/2015 2:14:23 AM, Welfare-Worker wrote:
At 2/4/2015 11:14:07 PM, Fly wrote:
Fiscal conservative/social liberal is a pretty vague and incomplete notion of what libertarianism is.

"Fiscal conservative" really just means that one doesn't spend more than one gets in revenue. Anti-credit/anti-debt in other words. But it has become an umbrella term for low taxes in the Republican Party. Note that the GOP spends into debt as much as anyone-- it is the low taxation that is the fundamental principle of "fiscal conservatism" for them. Deregulation/lassez faire capitalism are also under that umbrella.

But libertarians want much more than that, in that they want much less government than that. They subscribe to a pre Civil War model of federal government involvement. If it isn't specifically enumerated in the US Constitution, the federal government has no authority to do it. Libertarians would probably go even one step further and eliminate the US Postal Service. They believe in minimal oversight of commerce, to the point where many believe that even fraud should be legal and taken care of by pure market forces. They disagree with the existence of the federal reserve system. See: Austrian school of economics.

Libertarians believe in privatization of most things that we have just taken for granted are a government function-- roads, highways, education, welfare, public transit, etc.

One important aspect of the ideology that has not been mentioned yet is foreign policy. Libertarians believe in pretty strict non-interventionalism, to the point of not even doling out foreign aid. They also believe in rolling back the military, spending less on it, pulling out of foreign countries, and keeping strictly a defensive force for the US alone.

So, true libertarianism is much more than merely taking what one feels is the best of both parties at present. That is why we will never see it put into practice...

Can you provide anything to show that the Libertarian party wants to privatize roads and highways, which would include bridges?
The constitution requires 'postal roads' to deliver mail - what do you think is the party position on that?
http://www.ronpaulforums.com...

I wasn't describing the Libertarian Party per se; I was attempting to describe general libertarian ideology-- hard to encapsulate in a few paragraphs what could easily take an entire book or two.

Here is but one example of what I was referring to:

https://libertarianmoney.wordpress.com...
"You don't have a right to be a jerk."
--Religion Forum's hypocrite extraordinaire serving up lulz
Welfare-Worker
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2/6/2015 6:53:16 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/5/2015 6:52:14 PM, Fly wrote:
At 2/5/2015 2:14:23 AM, Welfare-Worker wrote:
At 2/4/2015 11:14:07 PM, Fly wrote:
Fiscal conservative/social liberal is a pretty vague and incomplete notion of what libertarianism is.

"Fiscal conservative" really just means that one doesn't spend more than one gets in revenue. Anti-credit/anti-debt in other words. But it has become an umbrella term for low taxes in the Republican Party. Note that the GOP spends into debt as much as anyone-- it is the low taxation that is the fundamental principle of "fiscal conservatism" for them. Deregulation/lassez faire capitalism are also under that umbrella.

But libertarians want much more than that, in that they want much less government than that. They subscribe to a pre Civil War model of federal government involvement. If it isn't specifically enumerated in the US Constitution, the federal government has no authority to do it. Libertarians would probably go even one step further and eliminate the US Postal Service. They believe in minimal oversight of commerce, to the point where many believe that even fraud should be legal and taken care of by pure market forces. They disagree with the existence of the federal reserve system. See: Austrian school of economics.

Libertarians believe in privatization of most things that we have just taken for granted are a government function-- roads, highways, education, welfare, public transit, etc.

One important aspect of the ideology that has not been mentioned yet is foreign policy. Libertarians believe in pretty strict non-interventionalism, to the point of not even doling out foreign aid. They also believe in rolling back the military, spending less on it, pulling out of foreign countries, and keeping strictly a defensive force for the US alone.

So, true libertarianism is much more than merely taking what one feels is the best of both parties at present. That is why we will never see it put into practice...

Can you provide anything to show that the Libertarian party wants to privatize roads and highways, which would include bridges?
The constitution requires 'postal roads' to deliver mail - what do you think is the party position on that?
http://www.ronpaulforums.com...

I wasn't describing the Libertarian Party per se; I was attempting to describe general libertarian ideology-- hard to encapsulate in a few paragraphs what could easily take an entire book or two.

Here is but one example of what I was referring to:

https://libertarianmoney.wordpress.com...

On Roads and the 'official' Libertarian position is not clear.
Your reference dos not mention postal roads, which are in the constitution.
It ignores that issues completely.
Also the issue of Libertarians supporting limited military, and what good is a military if they cannot get from here to there.
I believe the party is more pragmatic than some would believe.

~ ~
On another note, correcting my statement on immigration
Immigrants' Rights: Argues that borders should be open but surveilled--everyone who does not pose a threat to public health or national security should be allowed to enter the country legally. Would eliminate all federal benefits to undocumented immigrants.
http://civilliberty.about.com...

Maybe not as pragmatic as I would like.
It is going to be government workers doing the surveillance.