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majority rules

badger
Posts: 11,793
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7/4/2010 7:40:05 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
i've seen many of you speak out against majority rule, and i'd like if one of you was to explain why to me, because i just don't get it.
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belle
Posts: 4,113
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7/4/2010 7:47:28 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
if the majority decides to enslave you for no good reason i think you'll understand.
evidently i only come to ddo to avoid doing homework...
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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7/4/2010 7:47:41 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/4/2010 7:40:05 PM, badger wrote:
i've seen many of you speak out against majority rule, and i'd like if one of you was to explain why to me, because i just don't get it.

Majority rule is akin to mob rule, the people are often uninformed, fickle etc and so may make rash decisions. If America had majority rule it might have nuked Saudi Arabia in the wake of 9-11, immediately regretted it and hoped for a slightly less stupid Government to to do slightly less stupid things.

If we had majority rule in the UK the death sentence would be repealed or restored on a week by week basis.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
badger
Posts: 11,793
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7/4/2010 7:56:55 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/4/2010 7:47:28 PM, belle wrote:
if the majority decides to enslave you for no good reason i think you'll understand.

nah, i get you already. 'twas a fairly stupid question.
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badger
Posts: 11,793
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7/4/2010 8:01:54 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
majority kinda does rule anyway, through those elected to run the state looking to be reelected. i suppose there are constitutions and things like that preventing this people from completely fvcking things up, but why do we need the middleman?
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Strikeeagle84015
Posts: 867
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7/4/2010 9:06:52 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/4/2010 8:01:54 PM, badger wrote:
majority kinda does rule anyway, through those elected to run the state looking to be reelected. i suppose there are constitutions and things like that preventing this people from completely fvcking things up, but why do we need the middleman?

Well that is the problem with America is that it was never intended to be that way and politicians were supposed to do what is right regardless of what the public thought of them, nowadays we don't need the middle man, although we should
: At 8/17/2010 7:17:56 AM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
: Hey dawg, i herd you like evangelical trolls so we put a bible thumper in yo bible thumper so you can troll while you troll!

Arguing with an atheist about God is very similar to arguing with a blind man about what the Sistine Chapel looks like
Marilyn Poe

Strikeeagle wrote
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Rob1Billion
Posts: 1,338
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7/5/2010 10:12:37 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/4/2010 7:47:28 PM, belle wrote:
if the majority decides to enslave you for no good reason i think you'll understand.

This is incredibly simplistic. The few can enslave you as well; who cares?
Master P is the end result of capitalism.
Cody_Franklin
Posts: 9,483
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7/5/2010 10:14:40 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/5/2010 10:12:37 AM, Rob1Billion wrote:
At 7/4/2010 7:47:28 PM, belle wrote:
if the majority decides to enslave you for no good reason i think you'll understand.

This is incredibly simplistic. The few can enslave you as well; who cares?

It's easier to say you're being enslaved for the common good than because "my friends and I need some extra cash and labor."
Rob1Billion
Posts: 1,338
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7/5/2010 10:19:21 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
Can you guys give specific (hypothetical is OK) examples of ways in which the majority would enslave or otherwise oppress a minority?

Doesn't it seem a little odd that you guys are saying that minorities will be enslaved when, in real life, we have Republicans who are complaining that minorities get too much power? Affirmative action, for example, is an example of society seeing injustice for a minority and acting to remedy it (whether or no you believe this is effective/justified is irrelevant). If the mob likes to oppress minorities, why does our country still give so much money to minorities in order to give them a step up?

When the people are liberated effectively, mob rule will be just. If the mob is itself oppressed, they will propagate that oppression to the minority. But the only way for true justice is for everyone to be able to participate. There is no other way.
Master P is the end result of capitalism.
Cody_Franklin
Posts: 9,483
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7/5/2010 10:31:03 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/5/2010 10:19:21 AM, Rob1Billion wrote:
Can you guys give specific (hypothetical is OK) examples of ways in which the majority would enslave or otherwise oppress a minority?

Doesn't it seem a little odd that you guys are saying that minorities will be enslaved when, in real life, we have Republicans who are complaining that minorities get too much power?

And yet, the Republicans aren't in power, are they?

Affirmative action, for example, is an example of society seeing injustice for a minority and acting to remedy it (whether or no you believe this is effective/justified is irrelevant). If the mob likes to oppress minorities, why does our country still give so much money to minorities in order to give them a step up?

Because it's overcompensating.

When the people are liberated effectively, mob rule will be just. If the mob is itself oppressed, they will propagate that oppression to the minority. But the only way for true justice is for everyone to be able to participate. There is no other way.

Well, given that "effective liberation" entails that the government has no other power but police, courts, and military (and is therefore violating no rights, since it isn't using force against any individual), I can't say that the majority would have any power to violate rights at that point. In that form, I'm perfectly okay with majority rule.
Cody_Franklin
Posts: 9,483
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7/5/2010 10:33:54 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/5/2010 10:19:21 AM, Rob1Billion wrote:
Can you guys give specific (hypothetical is OK) examples of ways in which the majority would enslave or otherwise oppress a minority?

Almost forgot to respond to this. Let's say that there are more poor and middle-class people (which, incidentally, there are). They come up with a plan to tax the rich more so that they can pump more money into Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, Welfare, and the like. Insert the title of any entitlement you like, and the example remains the same. There's some oppression right there.

There was also that whole "slavery" thing a couple hundred years ago.

I can provide more if you so wish.
Strikeeagle84015
Posts: 867
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7/5/2010 10:42:13 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/5/2010 10:19:21 AM, Rob1Billion wrote:
Can you guys give specific (hypothetical is OK) examples of ways in which the majority would enslave or otherwise oppress a minority?

Make laws that punish anyone that doesn't believe the same way as the minority
: At 8/17/2010 7:17:56 AM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
: Hey dawg, i herd you like evangelical trolls so we put a bible thumper in yo bible thumper so you can troll while you troll!

Arguing with an atheist about God is very similar to arguing with a blind man about what the Sistine Chapel looks like
Marilyn Poe

Strikeeagle wrote
The only way I will stop believing in God is if he appeared before me and told me that he did not exist.
Kinesis
Posts: 3,667
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7/5/2010 10:56:07 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/5/2010 10:42:13 AM, Strikeeagle84015 wrote:
At 7/5/2010 10:19:21 AM, Rob1Billion wrote:
Can you guys give specific (hypothetical is OK) examples of ways in which the majority would enslave or otherwise oppress a minority?

Make laws that punish anyone that doesn't believe the same way as the minority

Very specific.
brian_eggleston
Posts: 3,347
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7/5/2010 11:02:58 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
Have I missed something?

Don't those of us who live democracies live under majority rule? Whoever gets the majority of votes wins the election, right?

Unless you mean majority rule in the sense that every bill put before the parliament (or equivalent lower chamber) is voted on in a referendum?

That would mean we'd have to visit the polling station on an almost hourly basis!
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belle
Posts: 4,113
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7/5/2010 11:14:37 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/5/2010 10:36:15 AM, Kinesis wrote:
What's the alternative?

limits on majority rule in order to prevent abuses of power. i mean, yeah, democracy is awesome compared to most other systems of political organization, but that doesn't make it an unconditional good. just like the danger of unconditional power in the hands of a king can lead to a tyrannical despot, unconditional power in the hands of the majority can lead to a tyranny of the majority.

you want another example, look at eugenics in the early 1900s.

i can't speak for anyone else, but all i have been trying to point out is that democracy and tyranny are not mutually exclusive
evidently i only come to ddo to avoid doing homework...
Sam_Lowry
Posts: 367
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7/5/2010 2:33:00 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/5/2010 11:02:58 AM, brian_eggleston wrote:
Have I missed something?

Don't those of us who live democracies live under majority rule? Whoever gets the majority of votes wins the election, right?

Unless you mean majority rule in the sense that every bill put before the parliament (or equivalent lower chamber) is voted on in a referendum?

That would mean we'd have to visit the polling station on an almost hourly basis!

In a constitutional republic, there are certain things/rights that cannot be put up for a simple vote. More than half of the (US) population is in favor of a flag burning ban, but nothing can be done without going through the process of adding a constitutional amendment, which requires more than the majority. Also, some 60-85% of the population are in favor of legalizing medical marijuana, but the government has been completely unsympathetic to anything of the sort, including medical testing and research.
badger
Posts: 11,793
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7/5/2010 5:26:25 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/5/2010 11:02:58 AM, brian_eggleston wrote:
That would mean we'd have to visit the polling station on an almost hourly basis!

my idea's a terrible one cosa that. i'm sure there are a lot more reasons too, but it's better than being taken for a ride by the fvcks we give charge to.
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