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what are our Rights

Libertatis
Posts: 9
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2/5/2015 10:05:49 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
I find a lot of people don't understand what our rights are. People say we have a right to education, healthcare, food, shelter, and clothing, but I disagree with all of these. I would like to start a discussion on this topic.
Lupo
Posts: 90
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2/5/2015 10:50:50 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/5/2015 10:05:49 AM, Libertatis wrote:
I find a lot of people don't understand what our rights are. People say we have a right to education, healthcare, food, shelter, and clothing, but I disagree with all of these. I would like to start a discussion on this topic.

I consider rights things that no one can take away from you at any time, otherwise are government grants, like right to live, physical integrity, freedom of speech and etc.

These "rights" that you mentioned are only guaranteed through the efforts of others, or through taxation for example, and it's not fair to those who provide the effort or the money.
EndarkenedRationalist
Posts: 14,201
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2/5/2015 10:56:49 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
We have negative rights (freedom of speech and religion) and positive rights (police protection of self and property, educational, healthcare).
Lupo
Posts: 90
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2/5/2015 11:05:27 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/5/2015 10:56:49 AM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
We have negative rights (freedom of speech and religion) and positive rights (police protection of self and property, educational, healthcare).

Why freedom of speech is a negative right? or the right to believe in anything you want ? (since you don't impose to others.)
Josh_debate
Posts: 170
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2/5/2015 11:16:43 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/5/2015 10:56:49 AM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
We have negative rights (freedom of speech and religion) and positive rights (police protection of self and property, educational, healthcare).

i wouldn't say education and healthcare are rights
EndarkenedRationalist
Posts: 14,201
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2/5/2015 11:18:25 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/5/2015 11:05:27 AM, Lupo wrote:
At 2/5/2015 10:56:49 AM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
We have negative rights (freedom of speech and religion) and positive rights (police protection of self and property, educational, healthcare).

Why freedom of speech is a negative right? or the right to believe in anything you want ? (since you don't impose to others.)

Negative rights are rights to be free from interference. That includes freedom of speech.
EndarkenedRationalist
Posts: 14,201
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2/5/2015 11:18:42 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/5/2015 11:16:43 AM, Josh_debate wrote:
At 2/5/2015 10:56:49 AM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
We have negative rights (freedom of speech and religion) and positive rights (police protection of self and property, educational, healthcare).

i wouldn't say education and healthcare are rights

I would. Great discussion.
Josh_debate
Posts: 170
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2/5/2015 11:20:50 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/5/2015 11:18:42 AM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
At 2/5/2015 11:16:43 AM, Josh_debate wrote:
At 2/5/2015 10:56:49 AM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
We have negative rights (freedom of speech and religion) and positive rights (police protection of self and property, educational, healthcare).

i wouldn't say education and healthcare are rights

I would. Great discussion.

How is healthcare and education a right.
KhaosMage
Posts: 1,475
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2/5/2015 11:24:27 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/5/2015 10:50:50 AM, Lupo wrote:
At 2/5/2015 10:05:49 AM, Libertatis wrote:
I find a lot of people don't understand what our rights are. People say we have a right to education, healthcare, food, shelter, and clothing, but I disagree with all of these. I would like to start a discussion on this topic.

I consider rights things that no one can take away from you at any time, otherwise are government grants, like right to live, physical integrity, freedom of speech and etc.

I can kill you, thus taking away your right to life.
I don't think your definition works.

These "rights" that you mentioned are only guaranteed through the efforts of others, or through taxation for example, and it's not fair to those who provide the effort or the money.
KhaosMage
Posts: 1,475
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2/5/2015 11:25:51 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/5/2015 10:56:49 AM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
We have negative rights (freedom of speech and religion) and positive rights (police protection of self and property, educational, healthcare).

Do positive rights stem from negative rights?
How can one right trump another (since positive rights interfere with negative ones, but not vice versa)?
Lupo
Posts: 90
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2/5/2015 11:37:11 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/5/2015 11:18:25 AM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
At 2/5/2015 11:05:27 AM, Lupo wrote:
At 2/5/2015 10:56:49 AM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
We have negative rights (freedom of speech and religion) and positive rights (police protection of self and property, educational, healthcare).

Why freedom of speech is a negative right? or the right to believe in anything you want ? (since you don't impose to others.)

Negative rights are rights to be free from interference. That includes freedom of speech.

I didn't know, thanks and sorry for my bad interpretation.
Lupo
Posts: 90
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2/5/2015 11:44:35 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/5/2015 11:24:27 AM, KhaosMage wrote:
At 2/5/2015 10:50:50 AM, Lupo wrote:
At 2/5/2015 10:05:49 AM, Libertatis wrote:
I find a lot of people don't understand what our rights are. People say we have a right to education, healthcare, food, shelter, and clothing, but I disagree with all of these. I would like to start a discussion on this topic.

I consider rights things that no one can take away from you at any time, otherwise are government grants, like right to live, physical integrity, freedom of speech and etc.

I can kill you, thus taking away your right to life.
I don't think your definition works.

When I said "no one can take away from you", I mean legally, the government can take your freedom when you commit a crime, or can take your shelter if you do not pay the rent.
But in countries without death penalty, nobody can take your life legally, is an inviolable right.
Chuz-Life
Posts: 1,789
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2/5/2015 12:50:32 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/5/2015 11:24:27 AM, KhaosMage wrote:
At 2/5/2015 10:50:50 AM, Lupo wrote:
At 2/5/2015 10:05:49 AM, Libertatis wrote:
I find a lot of people don't understand what our rights are. People say we have a right to education, healthcare, food, shelter, and clothing, but I disagree with all of these. I would like to start a discussion on this topic.

I consider rights things that no one can take away from you at any time, otherwise are government grants, like right to live, physical integrity, freedom of speech and etc.

I can kill you, thus taking away your right to life.
I don't think your definition works.


If you kill someone, you are not taking their right to their life away from them. You are violating it. And the violation is (in a way) proof that it still exists.
"Sooner or later, the Supreme Court of the Unites States is going to have explain how a 'child in the womb' is a person enough to be recognized as a MURDER victim under our fetal homicide laws but how they are not persons enough to qualify for any other Constitutional protections" ~ Chuz Life

http://www.debate.org...
EndarkenedRationalist
Posts: 14,201
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2/5/2015 2:26:53 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/5/2015 11:25:51 AM, KhaosMage wrote:
At 2/5/2015 10:56:49 AM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
We have negative rights (freedom of speech and religion) and positive rights (police protection of self and property, educational, healthcare).

Do positive rights stem from negative rights?

Not exactly. The right not to be subjected to an action and the right to be subjected to an action would share a root.

How can one right trump another (since positive rights interfere with negative ones, but not vice versa)?

According to conventional theory, negative rights trump positive rights because the greatest possible negative obligation (not to kill) has only one exception (self-defense) whereas positive rights require more complex ethics and justifications.
EndarkenedRationalist
Posts: 14,201
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2/5/2015 2:27:58 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/5/2015 11:20:50 AM, Josh_debate wrote:
At 2/5/2015 11:18:42 AM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
At 2/5/2015 11:16:43 AM, Josh_debate wrote:
At 2/5/2015 10:56:49 AM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
We have negative rights (freedom of speech and religion) and positive rights (police protection of self and property, educational, healthcare).

i wouldn't say education and healthcare are rights

I would. Great discussion.

How is healthcare and education a right.

You just need to expand your definition of rights to include positive rights (to right to be subjected to an action).
Josh_debate
Posts: 170
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2/5/2015 5:33:08 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/5/2015 2:27:58 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
At 2/5/2015 11:20:50 AM, Josh_debate wrote:
At 2/5/2015 11:18:42 AM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
At 2/5/2015 11:16:43 AM, Josh_debate wrote:
At 2/5/2015 10:56:49 AM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
We have negative rights (freedom of speech and religion) and positive rights (police protection of self and property, educational, healthcare).

i wouldn't say education and healthcare are rights

I would. Great discussion.

How is healthcare and education a right.

You just need to expand your definition of rights to include positive rights (to right to be subjected to an action).

I don't think that you understand what a right is. All are rights are rights to actions, not to rewards from other people. The American rights impose no obligations on other people, merely the negative obligation to leave you alone. If your only way to afford something is to force others to pay for it, then its not a right.
EndarkenedRationalist
Posts: 14,201
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2/5/2015 6:27:44 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/5/2015 5:33:08 PM, Josh_debate wrote:
At 2/5/2015 2:27:58 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
At 2/5/2015 11:20:50 AM, Josh_debate wrote:
At 2/5/2015 11:18:42 AM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
At 2/5/2015 11:16:43 AM, Josh_debate wrote:
At 2/5/2015 10:56:49 AM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
We have negative rights (freedom of speech and religion) and positive rights (police protection of self and property, educational, healthcare).

i wouldn't say education and healthcare are rights

I would. Great discussion.

How is healthcare and education a right.

You just need to expand your definition of rights to include positive rights (to right to be subjected to an action).

I don't think that you understand what a right is. All are rights are rights to actions, not to rewards from other people. The American rights impose no obligations on other people, merely the negative obligation to leave you alone. If your only way to afford something is to force others to pay for it, then its not a right.

I don't think you understand the fact that negative rights are not the only rights in the world.
Josh_debate
Posts: 170
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2/5/2015 6:34:59 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/5/2015 6:27:44 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
At 2/5/2015 5:33:08 PM, Josh_debate wrote:
At 2/5/2015 2:27:58 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
At 2/5/2015 11:20:50 AM, Josh_debate wrote:
At 2/5/2015 11:18:42 AM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
At 2/5/2015 11:16:43 AM, Josh_debate wrote:
At 2/5/2015 10:56:49 AM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
We have negative rights (freedom of speech and religion) and positive rights (police protection of self and property, educational, healthcare).

i wouldn't say education and healthcare are rights

I would. Great discussion.

How is healthcare and education a right.

You just need to expand your definition of rights to include positive rights (to right to be subjected to an action).

I don't think that you understand what a right is. All are rights are rights to actions, not to rewards from other people. The American rights impose no obligations on other people, merely the negative obligation to leave you alone. If your only way to afford something is to force others to pay for it, then its not a right.

I don't think you understand the fact that negative rights are not the only rights in the world.

Elaborate
EndarkenedRationalist
Posts: 14,201
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2/5/2015 6:38:25 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/5/2015 6:34:59 PM, Josh_debate wrote:
At 2/5/2015 6:27:44 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
At 2/5/2015 5:33:08 PM, Josh_debate wrote:
At 2/5/2015 2:27:58 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
At 2/5/2015 11:20:50 AM, Josh_debate wrote:
At 2/5/2015 11:18:42 AM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
At 2/5/2015 11:16:43 AM, Josh_debate wrote:
At 2/5/2015 10:56:49 AM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
We have negative rights (freedom of speech and religion) and positive rights (police protection of self and property, educational, healthcare).

i wouldn't say education and healthcare are rights

I would. Great discussion.

How is healthcare and education a right.

You just need to expand your definition of rights to include positive rights (to right to be subjected to an action).

I don't think that you understand what a right is. All are rights are rights to actions, not to rewards from other people. The American rights impose no obligations on other people, merely the negative obligation to leave you alone. If your only way to afford something is to force others to pay for it, then its not a right.

I don't think you understand the fact that negative rights are not the only rights in the world.

Elaborate

Read the thread. I've literally talked about positive rights a multitude of times.
Josh_debate
Posts: 170
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2/5/2015 6:44:07 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/5/2015 6:38:25 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
At 2/5/2015 6:34:59 PM, Josh_debate wrote:
At 2/5/2015 6:27:44 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
At 2/5/2015 5:33:08 PM, Josh_debate wrote:
At 2/5/2015 2:27:58 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
At 2/5/2015 11:20:50 AM, Josh_debate wrote:
At 2/5/2015 11:18:42 AM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
At 2/5/2015 11:16:43 AM, Josh_debate wrote:
At 2/5/2015 10:56:49 AM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
We have negative rights (freedom of speech and religion) and positive rights (police protection of self and property, educational, healthcare).

i wouldn't say education and healthcare are rights

I would. Great discussion.

How is healthcare and education a right.

You just need to expand your definition of rights to include positive rights (to right to be subjected to an action).

I don't think that you understand what a right is. All are rights are rights to actions, not to rewards from other people. The American rights impose no obligations on other people, merely the negative obligation to leave you alone. If your only way to afford something is to force others to pay for it, then its not a right.

I don't think you understand the fact that negative rights are not the only rights in the world.

Elaborate

Read the thread. I've literally talked about positive rights a multitude of times.

The only thing that doesn't make sense is where you get education and health care are a rights. All rights are rights to actions.
EndarkenedRationalist
Posts: 14,201
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2/5/2015 6:46:48 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/5/2015 6:44:07 PM, Josh_debate wrote:
At 2/5/2015 6:38:25 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
At 2/5/2015 6:34:59 PM, Josh_debate wrote:
At 2/5/2015 6:27:44 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
At 2/5/2015 5:33:08 PM, Josh_debate wrote:
At 2/5/2015 2:27:58 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
At 2/5/2015 11:20:50 AM, Josh_debate wrote:
At 2/5/2015 11:18:42 AM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
At 2/5/2015 11:16:43 AM, Josh_debate wrote:
At 2/5/2015 10:56:49 AM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
We have negative rights (freedom of speech and religion) and positive rights (police protection of self and property, educational, healthcare).

i wouldn't say education and healthcare are rights

I would. Great discussion.

How is healthcare and education a right.

You just need to expand your definition of rights to include positive rights (to right to be subjected to an action).

I don't think that you understand what a right is. All are rights are rights to actions, not to rewards from other people. The American rights impose no obligations on other people, merely the negative obligation to leave you alone. If your only way to afford something is to force others to pay for it, then its not a right.

I don't think you understand the fact that negative rights are not the only rights in the world.

Elaborate

Read the thread. I've literally talked about positive rights a multitude of times.

The only thing that doesn't make sense is where you get education and health care are a rights. All rights are rights to actions.

Negative rights are rights to inaction. Or, rather, they oblige inaction. Free speech - the right not to have your speech interfered with. Positive rights oblige action - the right to have police come save you during a robbery.
Josh_debate
Posts: 170
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2/5/2015 6:50:43 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/5/2015 6:46:48 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
At 2/5/2015 6:44:07 PM, Josh_debate wrote:
At 2/5/2015 6:38:25 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
At 2/5/2015 6:34:59 PM, Josh_debate wrote:
At 2/5/2015 6:27:44 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
At 2/5/2015 5:33:08 PM, Josh_debate wrote:
At 2/5/2015 2:27:58 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
At 2/5/2015 11:20:50 AM, Josh_debate wrote:
At 2/5/2015 11:18:42 AM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
At 2/5/2015 11:16:43 AM, Josh_debate wrote:
At 2/5/2015 10:56:49 AM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
We have negative rights (freedom of speech and religion) and positive rights (police protection of self and property, educational, healthcare).

i wouldn't say education and healthcare are rights

I would. Great discussion.

How is healthcare and education a right.

You just need to expand your definition of rights to include positive rights (to right to be subjected to an action).

I don't think that you understand what a right is. All are rights are rights to actions, not to rewards from other people. The American rights impose no obligations on other people, merely the negative obligation to leave you alone. If your only way to afford something is to force others to pay for it, then its not a right.

I don't think you understand the fact that negative rights are not the only rights in the world.

Elaborate

Read the thread. I've literally talked about positive rights a multitude of times.

The only thing that doesn't make sense is where you get education and health care are a rights. All rights are rights to actions.

Negative rights are rights to inaction. Or, rather, they oblige inaction. Free speech - the right not to have your speech interfered with. Positive rights oblige action - the right to have police come save you during a robbery.

I know that, but what I'm saying doesn't make sense is how you bring healthcare and education into it. You are not entitled to these things
EndarkenedRationalist
Posts: 14,201
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2/5/2015 6:53:18 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/5/2015 6:50:43 PM, Josh_debate wrote:
At 2/5/2015 6:46:48 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
At 2/5/2015 6:44:07 PM, Josh_debate wrote:
At 2/5/2015 6:38:25 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
At 2/5/2015 6:34:59 PM, Josh_debate wrote:
At 2/5/2015 6:27:44 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
At 2/5/2015 5:33:08 PM, Josh_debate wrote:
At 2/5/2015 2:27:58 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
At 2/5/2015 11:20:50 AM, Josh_debate wrote:
At 2/5/2015 11:18:42 AM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
At 2/5/2015 11:16:43 AM, Josh_debate wrote:
At 2/5/2015 10:56:49 AM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
We have negative rights (freedom of speech and religion) and positive rights (police protection of self and property, educational, healthcare).

i wouldn't say education and healthcare are rights

I would. Great discussion.

How is healthcare and education a right.

You just need to expand your definition of rights to include positive rights (to right to be subjected to an action).

I don't think that you understand what a right is. All are rights are rights to actions, not to rewards from other people. The American rights impose no obligations on other people, merely the negative obligation to leave you alone. If your only way to afford something is to force others to pay for it, then its not a right.

I don't think you understand the fact that negative rights are not the only rights in the world.

Elaborate

Read the thread. I've literally talked about positive rights a multitude of times.

The only thing that doesn't make sense is where you get education and health care are a rights. All rights are rights to actions.

Negative rights are rights to inaction. Or, rather, they oblige inaction. Free speech - the right not to have your speech interfered with. Positive rights oblige action - the right to have police come save you during a robbery.

I know that, but what I'm saying doesn't make sense is how you bring healthcare and education into it. You are not entitled to these things

That's your opinion. I disagree with it. As a socialist, I believe everyone should be entitled to education (at least through high school) and healthcare. Both are essential to life in the developed world.
Josh_debate
Posts: 170
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2/5/2015 6:59:26 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/5/2015 6:53:18 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
At 2/5/2015 6:50:43 PM, Josh_debate wrote:
At 2/5/2015 6:46:48 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
At 2/5/2015 6:44:07 PM, Josh_debate wrote:
At 2/5/2015 6:38:25 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
At 2/5/2015 6:34:59 PM, Josh_debate wrote:
At 2/5/2015 6:27:44 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
At 2/5/2015 5:33:08 PM, Josh_debate wrote:
At 2/5/2015 2:27:58 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
At 2/5/2015 11:20:50 AM, Josh_debate wrote:
At 2/5/2015 11:18:42 AM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
At 2/5/2015 11:16:43 AM, Josh_debate wrote:
At 2/5/2015 10:56:49 AM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
We have negative rights (freedom of speech and religion) and positive rights (police protection of self and property, educational, healthcare).

i wouldn't say education and healthcare are rights

I would. Great discussion.

How is healthcare and education a right.

You just need to expand your definition of rights to include positive rights (to right to be subjected to an action).

I don't think that you understand what a right is. All are rights are rights to actions, not to rewards from other people. The American rights impose no obligations on other people, merely the negative obligation to leave you alone. If your only way to afford something is to force others to pay for it, then its not a right.

I don't think you understand the fact that negative rights are not the only rights in the world.

Elaborate

Read the thread. I've literally talked about positive rights a multitude of times.

The only thing that doesn't make sense is where you get education and health care are a rights. All rights are rights to actions.

Negative rights are rights to inaction. Or, rather, they oblige inaction. Free speech - the right not to have your speech interfered with. Positive rights oblige action - the right to have police come save you during a robbery.

I know that, but what I'm saying doesn't make sense is how you bring healthcare and education into it. You are not entitled to these things

That's your opinion. I disagree with it. As a socialist, I believe everyone should be entitled to education (at least through high school) and healthcare. Both are essential to life in the developed world.

As i said your rights are rights to action. They cant impose obligations on other people, merely the negative obligation to leave you alone. You do not have a right to education or healthcare, they must be pursed.
EndarkenedRationalist
Posts: 14,201
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2/5/2015 7:01:17 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/5/2015 6:59:26 PM, Josh_debate wrote:
At 2/5/2015 6:53:18 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
At 2/5/2015 6:50:43 PM, Josh_debate wrote:
At 2/5/2015 6:46:48 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
At 2/5/2015 6:44:07 PM, Josh_debate wrote:
At 2/5/2015 6:38:25 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
At 2/5/2015 6:34:59 PM, Josh_debate wrote:
At 2/5/2015 6:27:44 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
At 2/5/2015 5:33:08 PM, Josh_debate wrote:
At 2/5/2015 2:27:58 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
At 2/5/2015 11:20:50 AM, Josh_debate wrote:
At 2/5/2015 11:18:42 AM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
At 2/5/2015 11:16:43 AM, Josh_debate wrote:
At 2/5/2015 10:56:49 AM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
We have negative rights (freedom of speech and religion) and positive rights (police protection of self and property, educational, healthcare).

i wouldn't say education and healthcare are rights

I would. Great discussion.

How is healthcare and education a right.

You just need to expand your definition of rights to include positive rights (to right to be subjected to an action).

I don't think that you understand what a right is. All are rights are rights to actions, not to rewards from other people. The American rights impose no obligations on other people, merely the negative obligation to leave you alone. If your only way to afford something is to force others to pay for it, then its not a right.

I don't think you understand the fact that negative rights are not the only rights in the world.

Elaborate

Read the thread. I've literally talked about positive rights a multitude of times.

The only thing that doesn't make sense is where you get education and health care are a rights. All rights are rights to actions.

Negative rights are rights to inaction. Or, rather, they oblige inaction. Free speech - the right not to have your speech interfered with. Positive rights oblige action - the right to have police come save you during a robbery.

I know that, but what I'm saying doesn't make sense is how you bring healthcare and education into it. You are not entitled to these things

That's your opinion. I disagree with it. As a socialist, I believe everyone should be entitled to education (at least through high school) and healthcare. Both are essential to life in the developed world.

As i said your rights are rights to action. They cant impose obligations on other people, merely the negative obligation to leave you alone. You do not have a right to education or healthcare, they must be pursed.

Yes. You can impose obligations on people. Exactly. Next?
Chang29
Posts: 732
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2/5/2015 7:01:54 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Where are the utilitarians and Theory of Justice people justifying the overall good of society outweighs violation of individual rights?
A free market anti-capitalist

If it can be de-centralized, it will be de-centralized.
Josh_debate
Posts: 170
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2/5/2015 7:04:32 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/5/2015 7:01:17 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
At 2/5/2015 6:59:26 PM, Josh_debate wrote:
At 2/5/2015 6:53:18 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
At 2/5/2015 6:50:43 PM, Josh_debate wrote:
At 2/5/2015 6:46:48 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
At 2/5/2015 6:44:07 PM, Josh_debate wrote:
At 2/5/2015 6:38:25 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
At 2/5/2015 6:34:59 PM, Josh_debate wrote:
At 2/5/2015 6:27:44 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
At 2/5/2015 5:33:08 PM, Josh_debate wrote:
At 2/5/2015 2:27:58 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
At 2/5/2015 11:20:50 AM, Josh_debate wrote:
At 2/5/2015 11:18:42 AM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
At 2/5/2015 11:16:43 AM, Josh_debate wrote:
At 2/5/2015 10:56:49 AM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
We have negative rights (freedom of speech and religion) and positive rights (police protection of self and property, educational, healthcare).

i wouldn't say education and healthcare are rights

I would. Great discussion.

How is healthcare and education a right.

You just need to expand your definition of rights to include positive rights (to right to be subjected to an action).

I don't think that you understand what a right is. All are rights are rights to actions, not to rewards from other people. The American rights impose no obligations on other people, merely the negative obligation to leave you alone. If your only way to afford something is to force others to pay for it, then its not a right.

I don't think you understand the fact that negative rights are not the only rights in the world.

Elaborate

Read the thread. I've literally talked about positive rights a multitude of times.

The only thing that doesn't make sense is where you get education and health care are a rights. All rights are rights to actions.

Negative rights are rights to inaction. Or, rather, they oblige inaction. Free speech - the right not to have your speech interfered with. Positive rights oblige action - the right to have police come save you during a robbery.

I know that, but what I'm saying doesn't make sense is how you bring healthcare and education into it. You are not entitled to these things

That's your opinion. I disagree with it. As a socialist, I believe everyone should be entitled to education (at least through high school) and healthcare. Both are essential to life in the developed world.

As i said your rights are rights to action. They cant impose obligations on other people, merely the negative obligation to leave you alone. You do not have a right to education or healthcare, they must be pursed.

Yes. You can impose obligations on people. Exactly. Next?

Imposing obligation on others would be violating there rights.
EndarkenedRationalist
Posts: 14,201
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2/5/2015 7:09:15 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/5/2015 7:04:32 PM, Josh_debate wrote:
At 2/5/2015 7:01:17 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
At 2/5/2015 6:59:26 PM, Josh_debate wrote:
At 2/5/2015 6:53:18 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
At 2/5/2015 6:50:43 PM, Josh_debate wrote:
At 2/5/2015 6:46:48 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
At 2/5/2015 6:44:07 PM, Josh_debate wrote:
At 2/5/2015 6:38:25 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
At 2/5/2015 6:34:59 PM, Josh_debate wrote:
At 2/5/2015 6:27:44 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
At 2/5/2015 5:33:08 PM, Josh_debate wrote:
At 2/5/2015 2:27:58 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
At 2/5/2015 11:20:50 AM, Josh_debate wrote:
At 2/5/2015 11:18:42 AM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
At 2/5/2015 11:16:43 AM, Josh_debate wrote:
At 2/5/2015 10:56:49 AM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
We have negative rights (freedom of speech and religion) and positive rights (police protection of self and property, educational, healthcare).

i wouldn't say education and healthcare are rights

I would. Great discussion.

How is healthcare and education a right.

You just need to expand your definition of rights to include positive rights (to right to be subjected to an action).

I don't think that you understand what a right is. All are rights are rights to actions, not to rewards from other people. The American rights impose no obligations on other people, merely the negative obligation to leave you alone. If your only way to afford something is to force others to pay for it, then its not a right.

I don't think you understand the fact that negative rights are not the only rights in the world.

Elaborate

Read the thread. I've literally talked about positive rights a multitude of times.

The only thing that doesn't make sense is where you get education and health care are a rights. All rights are rights to actions.

Negative rights are rights to inaction. Or, rather, they oblige inaction. Free speech - the right not to have your speech interfered with. Positive rights oblige action - the right to have police come save you during a robbery.

I know that, but what I'm saying doesn't make sense is how you bring healthcare and education into it. You are not entitled to these things

That's your opinion. I disagree with it. As a socialist, I believe everyone should be entitled to education (at least through high school) and healthcare. Both are essential to life in the developed world.

As i said your rights are rights to action. They cant impose obligations on other people, merely the negative obligation to leave you alone. You do not have a right to education or healthcare, they must be pursed.

Yes. You can impose obligations on people. Exactly. Next?

Imposing obligation on others would be violating there rights.

Not necessarily, and even if it does, their right to inaction is not as great as your right to healthcare.
Josh_debate
Posts: 170
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2/5/2015 7:15:30 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/5/2015 7:09:15 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
At 2/5/2015 7:04:32 PM, Josh_debate wrote:
At 2/5/2015 7:01:17 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
At 2/5/2015 6:59:26 PM, Josh_debate wrote:
At 2/5/2015 6:53:18 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
At 2/5/2015 6:50:43 PM, Josh_debate wrote:
At 2/5/2015 6:46:48 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
At 2/5/2015 6:44:07 PM, Josh_debate wrote:
At 2/5/2015 6:38:25 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
At 2/5/2015 6:34:59 PM, Josh_debate wrote:
At 2/5/2015 6:27:44 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
At 2/5/2015 5:33:08 PM, Josh_debate wrote:
At 2/5/2015 2:27:58 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
At 2/5/2015 11:20:50 AM, Josh_debate wrote:
At 2/5/2015 11:18:42 AM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
At 2/5/2015 11:16:43 AM, Josh_debate wrote:
At 2/5/2015 10:56:49 AM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
We have negative rights (freedom of speech and religion) and positive rights (police protection of self and property, educational, healthcare).

i wouldn't say education and healthcare are rights

I would. Great discussion.

How is healthcare and education a right.

You just need to expand your definition of rights to include positive rights (to right to be subjected to an action).

I don't think that you understand what a right is. All are rights are rights to actions, not to rewards from other people. The American rights impose no obligations on other people, merely the negative obligation to leave you alone. If your only way to afford something is to force others to pay for it, then its not a right.

I don't think you understand the fact that negative rights are not the only rights in the world.

Elaborate

Read the thread. I've literally talked about positive rights a multitude of times.

The only thing that doesn't make sense is where you get education and health care are a rights. All rights are rights to actions.

Negative rights are rights to inaction. Or, rather, they oblige inaction. Free speech - the right not to have your speech interfered with. Positive rights oblige action - the right to have police come save you during a robbery.

I know that, but what I'm saying doesn't make sense is how you bring healthcare and education into it. You are not entitled to these things

That's your opinion. I disagree with it. As a socialist, I believe everyone should be entitled to education (at least through high school) and healthcare. Both are essential to life in the developed world.

As i said your rights are rights to action. They cant impose obligations on other people, merely the negative obligation to leave you alone. You do not have a right to education or healthcare, they must be pursed.

Yes. You can impose obligations on people. Exactly. Next?

Imposing obligation on others would be violating there rights.

Not necessarily, and even if it does, their right to inaction is not as great as your right to healthcare.

So if I'm a teacher you should be aloud to violate my right to liberty by forcing me to teach you.
EndarkenedRationalist
Posts: 14,201
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2/5/2015 7:16:44 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/5/2015 7:15:30 PM, Josh_debate wrote:
At 2/5/2015 7:09:15 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
At 2/5/2015 7:04:32 PM, Josh_debate wrote:
At 2/5/2015 7:01:17 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
At 2/5/2015 6:59:26 PM, Josh_debate wrote:
At 2/5/2015 6:53:18 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
At 2/5/2015 6:50:43 PM, Josh_debate wrote:
At 2/5/2015 6:46:48 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
At 2/5/2015 6:44:07 PM, Josh_debate wrote:
At 2/5/2015 6:38:25 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
At 2/5/2015 6:34:59 PM, Josh_debate wrote:
At 2/5/2015 6:27:44 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
At 2/5/2015 5:33:08 PM, Josh_debate wrote:
At 2/5/2015 2:27:58 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
At 2/5/2015 11:20:50 AM, Josh_debate wrote:
At 2/5/2015 11:18:42 AM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
At 2/5/2015 11:16:43 AM, Josh_debate wrote:
At 2/5/2015 10:56:49 AM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
We have negative rights (freedom of speech and religion) and positive rights (police protection of self and property, educational, healthcare).

i wouldn't say education and healthcare are rights

I would. Great discussion.

How is healthcare and education a right.

You just need to expand your definition of rights to include positive rights (to right to be subjected to an action).

I don't think that you understand what a right is. All are rights are rights to actions, not to rewards from other people. The American rights impose no obligations on other people, merely the negative obligation to leave you alone. If your only way to afford something is to force others to pay for it, then its not a right.

I don't think you understand the fact that negative rights are not the only rights in the world.

Elaborate

Read the thread. I've literally talked about positive rights a multitude of times.

The only thing that doesn't make sense is where you get education and health care are a rights. All rights are rights to actions.

Negative rights are rights to inaction. Or, rather, they oblige inaction. Free speech - the right not to have your speech interfered with. Positive rights oblige action - the right to have police come save you during a robbery.

I know that, but what I'm saying doesn't make sense is how you bring healthcare and education into it. You are not entitled to these things

That's your opinion. I disagree with it. As a socialist, I believe everyone should be entitled to education (at least through high school) and healthcare. Both are essential to life in the developed world.

As i said your rights are rights to action. They cant impose obligations on other people, merely the negative obligation to leave you alone. You do not have a right to education or healthcare, they must be pursed.

Yes. You can impose obligations on people. Exactly. Next?

Imposing obligation on others would be violating there rights.

Not necessarily, and even if it does, their right to inaction is not as great as your right to healthcare.

So if I'm a teacher you should be aloud to violate my right to liberty by forcing me to teach you.

Yes