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I am willing to hear what pro;lifers have to

SitaraMusica
Posts: 1,060
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2/6/2015 7:41:44 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
I will not judge. Now is your chance to preach the prolife message. Why should I consider being pprolife? I am having doubts about my position.
Varrack
Posts: 2,411
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2/6/2015 7:48:53 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/6/2015 7:41:44 PM, SitaraMusica wrote:
I will not judge. Now is your chance to preach the prolife message. Why should I consider being pprolife? I am having doubts about my position.

You should be pro life because abortion is unfair to babies. It only takes into consideration the mother's mistake and unfairly punishes the baby. It doesn't matter if you believe that a fetus is a collection of cells or not, because everything that can have a life like ours does not deserve to be deprived of that right. Also, some abortion go wrong and end up killing the mother too. Some mothers get abortions because they don't want to look fat. The government will protect animal fetuses, but not human fetuses? Just doesn't make sense.
SitaraMusica
Posts: 1,060
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2/6/2015 7:54:06 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/6/2015 7:48:53 PM, Varrack wrote:
At 2/6/2015 7:41:44 PM, SitaraMusica wrote:
I will not judge. Now is your chance to preach the prolife message. Why should I consider being pprolife? I am having doubts about my position.

You should be pro life because abortion is unfair to babies. It only takes into consideration the mother's mistake and unfairly punishes the baby. It doesn't matter if you believe that a fetus is a collection of cells or not, because everything that can have a life like ours does not deserve to be deprived of that right. Also, some abortion go wrong and end up killing the mother too. Some mothers get abortions because they don't want to look fat. The government will protect animal fetuses, but not Fair enough. What if the mother has medical problems like life threatening stuff?human fetuses? Just doesn't make sense.
Jair enough. What if the moothers life is in dangerr?
Varrack
Posts: 2,411
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2/6/2015 7:56:11 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/6/2015 7:54:06 PM, SitaraMusica wrote:
At 2/6/2015 7:48:53 PM, Varrack wrote:
At 2/6/2015 7:41:44 PM, SitaraMusica wrote:
I will not judge. Now is your chance to preach the prolife message. Why should I consider being pprolife? I am having doubts about my position.

You should be pro life because abortion is unfair to babies. It only takes into consideration the mother's mistake and unfairly punishes the baby. It doesn't matter if you believe that a fetus is a collection of cells or not, because everything that can have a life like ours does not deserve to be deprived of that right. Also, some abortion go wrong and end up killing the mother too. Some mothers get abortions because they don't want to look fat. The government will protect animal fetuses, but not Fair enough. What if the mother has medical problems like life threatening stuff?human fetuses? Just doesn't make sense.
Jair enough. What if the moothers life is in dangerr?

Then yes, abortion should be allowed in that case. 2 lives are more important than one.
SitaraMusica
Posts: 1,060
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2/6/2015 8:03:43 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/6/2015 7:56:11 PM, Varrack wrote:
At 2/6/2015 7:54:06 PM, SitaraMusica wrote:
At 2/6/2015 7:48:53 PM, Varrack wrote:
At 2/6/2015 7:41:44 PM, SitaraMusica wrote:
I will not judge. Now is your chance to preach the prolife message. Why should I consider being pprolife? I am having doubts about my position.

You should be pro life because abortion is unfair to babies. It only takes into consideration the mother's mistake and unfairly punishes the baby. It doesn't matter if you believe that a fetus is a collection of cells or not, because everything that can have a life like ours does not deserve to be deprived of that right. Also, some abortion go wrong and end up killing the mother too. Some mothers get abortions because they don't want to look fat. The government will protect animal fetuses, but not Fair enough. What if the mother has medical problems like life threatening stuff?human fetuses? Just doesn't make sense.
Jair enough. What if the moothers life is in dangerr?

Then yes, abortion should be allowed in that case. 2 lives are more important than one.
Fair enough. I am afraid people will hate me for being prolife. :(
Vox_Veritas
Posts: 7,079
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2/6/2015 8:41:27 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/6/2015 7:41:44 PM, SitaraMusica wrote:
I will not judge. Now is your chance to preach the prolife message. Why should I consider being pprolife? I am having doubts about my position.

Do you believe that a fetus is not a human being entitled to the fundamental right to life that humans have, or do you believe that they are, but that they should be aborted anyway because you view the mother's interests to be of higher priority?
Call me Vox, the Resident Contrarian of debate.org.

The DDO Blog:
https://debatedotorg.wordpress.com...

#drinkthecoffeenotthekoolaid
SitaraMusica
Posts: 1,060
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2/6/2015 9:17:00 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/6/2015 8:41:27 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 2/6/2015 7:41:44 PM, SitaraMusica wrote:
I will not judge. Now is your chance to preach the prolife message. Why should I consider being pprolife? I am having doubts about my position.

Do you believe that a fetus is not a human being entitled to the fundamental right to life that humans have, or do you believe that they are, but that they should be aborted anyway because you view the mother's interests to be of higher priority?

I'm considering being prolife byut Im afraid of being wrong.
Vox_Veritas
Posts: 7,079
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2/6/2015 9:21:04 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/6/2015 9:17:00 PM, SitaraMusica wrote:
At 2/6/2015 8:41:27 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 2/6/2015 7:41:44 PM, SitaraMusica wrote:
I will not judge. Now is your chance to preach the prolife message. Why should I consider being pprolife? I am having doubts about my position.

Do you believe that a fetus is not a human being entitled to the fundamental right to life that humans have, or do you believe that they are, but that they should be aborted anyway because you view the mother's interests to be of higher priority?

I'm considering being prolife byut Im afraid of being wrong.

If society is wrong about Pro-life, it'd mean that millions of women were unnecessarily oppressed. If society is wrong about Pro-Choice, then millions of human beings were slaughtered (higher than the number of people exterminated during the Holocaust). It's your choice.
Call me Vox, the Resident Contrarian of debate.org.

The DDO Blog:
https://debatedotorg.wordpress.com...

#drinkthecoffeenotthekoolaid
Varrack
Posts: 2,411
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2/6/2015 9:21:57 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/6/2015 8:03:43 PM, SitaraMusica wrote:
At 2/6/2015 7:56:11 PM, Varrack wrote:
At 2/6/2015 7:54:06 PM, SitaraMusica wrote:
At 2/6/2015 7:48:53 PM, Varrack wrote:
At 2/6/2015 7:41:44 PM, SitaraMusica wrote:
I will not judge. Now is your chance to preach the prolife message. Why should I consider being pprolife? I am having doubts about my position.

You should be pro life because abortion is unfair to babies. It only takes into consideration the mother's mistake and unfairly punishes the baby. It doesn't matter if you believe that a fetus is a collection of cells or not, because everything that can have a life like ours does not deserve to be deprived of that right. Also, some abortion go wrong and end up killing the mother too. Some mothers get abortions because they don't want to look fat. The government will protect animal fetuses, but not Fair enough. What if the mother has medical problems like life threatening stuff?human fetuses? Just doesn't make sense.
Jair enough. What if the moothers life is in dangerr?

Then yes, abortion should be allowed in that case. 2 lives are more important than one.
Fair enough. I am afraid people will hate me for being prolife. :(

People will hate you for being pro choice, lol. There are always people like that. The trick is to not worry about them, because you simply can't please everyone no matter what you believe. I'm sure some people may not like me too but it doesn't bother me.
Illegalcombatant
Posts: 4,008
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2/6/2015 10:41:19 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/6/2015 9:17:00 PM, SitaraMusica wrote:
At 2/6/2015 8:41:27 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 2/6/2015 7:41:44 PM, SitaraMusica wrote:
I will not judge. Now is your chance to preach the prolife message. Why should I consider being pprolife? I am having doubts about my position.

Do you believe that a fetus is not a human being entitled to the fundamental right to life that humans have, or do you believe that they are, but that they should be aborted anyway because you view the mother's interests to be of higher priority?

I'm considering being prolife byut Im afraid of being wrong.

But what exactly do you have in mind ?

The most common thing I see under the Pro life is that from the moment of conception a woman has no choice whether to continue a pregnancy, that is to say they want it to be illegal.

You could be pro life in the sense that you don't believe that abortion should be done BUT that lack of choice of abortion should not be forced upon a woman by law.

You could also be a pro life/pro choice position that a woman should have the legal right of abortion where x,y,z but shouldn't in where a,bc.

I think the most common pro life position I encounter that being that a woman should not have any choice in continuing in a pregnancy cause from the moment of conception the organism is a "person" with full rights of personhood that override any rights of the woman is well..................bullsh*t.
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
Dilara
Posts: 661
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2/8/2015 8:36:25 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Everyone deserves a chance. I used to be pro choice. Than I learned rebecca keeslings story. Her mother tried to abort her but because she was conceived before roe v wade there was not legal way for her mom to do this. Her mom was forced to have her. Now rebecca is a wonderful women who enjoys life. Should she have had her life taken from her because of her mothers social life? Could you tell rebecca that if you had your way before 1973 that she would have been aborted and wouldn't be here today? I asked my self these questions. When i answered no to both of them i decided to become pro life. Everyone deserves a chance and your right to have a chance at life overrides any women's social life. Silent scream is a film that shows an abortion through ultra sound. I is narrated by the late Bernard nathanson who used to be an abortion doctor and killed 70,000 unborn people. The child in the film squirms away from the abortion instruments before being sucked away. No child should to through this pain because of the mothers social life.
Dilara
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2/8/2015 8:40:05 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/6/2015 10:41:19 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
At 2/6/2015 9:17:00 PM, SitaraMusica wrote:
At 2/6/2015 8:41:27 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 2/6/2015 7:41:44 PM, SitaraMusica wrote:
I will not judge. Now is your chance to preach the prolife message. Why should I consider being pprolife? I am having doubts about my position.

Do you believe that a fetus is not a human being entitled to the fundamental right to life that humans have, or do you believe that they are, but that they should be aborted anyway because you view the mother's interests to be of higher priority?

I'm considering being prolife byut Im afraid of being wrong.

But what exactly do you have in mind ?

The most common thing I see under the Pro life is that from the moment of conception a woman has no choice whether to continue a pregnancy, that is to say they want it to be illegal.

You could be pro life in the sense that you don't believe that abortion should be done BUT that lack of choice of abortion should not be forced upon a woman by law.

You could also be a pro life/pro choice position that a woman should have the legal right of abortion where x,y,z but shouldn't in where a,bc.

I think the most common pro life position I encounter that being that a woman should not have any choice in continuing in a pregnancy cause from the moment of conception the organism is a "person" with full rights of personhood that override any rights of the woman is well..................bullsh*t.
You think ones life is less important than a girls social status? Read my post about silent scream and rebecca keesling.
The 12 week old fetus in the movie silent scream fight the abortion instruments before being killed. Do your really support putting a baby through that?
Chuz-Life
Posts: 1,789
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2/8/2015 9:19:23 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/6/2015 9:21:04 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 2/6/2015 9:17:00 PM, SitaraMusica wrote:
At 2/6/2015 8:41:27 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 2/6/2015 7:41:44 PM, SitaraMusica wrote:
I will not judge. Now is your chance to preach the prolife message. Why should I consider being pprolife? I am having doubts about my position.

Do you believe that a fetus is not a human being entitled to the fundamental right to life that humans have, or do you believe that they are, but that they should be aborted anyway because you view the mother's interests to be of higher priority?

I'm considering being prolife byut Im afraid of being wrong.

If society is wrong about Pro-life, it'd mean that millions of women were unnecessarily oppressed. If society is wrong about Pro-Choice, then millions of human beings were slaughtered (higher than the number of people exterminated during the Holocaust). It's your choice.

This! ^^^
"Sooner or later, the Supreme Court of the Unites States is going to have explain how a 'child in the womb' is a person enough to be recognized as a MURDER victim under our fetal homicide laws but how they are not persons enough to qualify for any other Constitutional protections" ~ Chuz Life

http://www.debate.org...
Illegalcombatant
Posts: 4,008
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2/8/2015 10:05:51 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/8/2015 8:40:05 PM, Dilara wrote:
At 2/6/2015 10:41:19 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
At 2/6/2015 9:17:00 PM, SitaraMusica wrote:
At 2/6/2015 8:41:27 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 2/6/2015 7:41:44 PM, SitaraMusica wrote:
I will not judge. Now is your chance to preach the prolife message. Why should I consider being pprolife? I am having doubts about my position.

Do you believe that a fetus is not a human being entitled to the fundamental right to life that humans have, or do you believe that they are, but that they should be aborted anyway because you view the mother's interests to be of higher priority?

I'm considering being prolife byut Im afraid of being wrong.

But what exactly do you have in mind ?

The most common thing I see under the Pro life is that from the moment of conception a woman has no choice whether to continue a pregnancy, that is to say they want it to be illegal.

You could be pro life in the sense that you don't believe that abortion should be done BUT that lack of choice of abortion should not be forced upon a woman by law.

You could also be a pro life/pro choice position that a woman should have the legal right of abortion where x,y,z but shouldn't in where a,bc.

I think the most common pro life position I encounter that being that a woman should not have any choice in continuing in a pregnancy cause from the moment of conception the organism is a "person" with full rights of personhood that override any rights of the woman is well..................bullsh*t.

You think ones life is less important than a girls social status? Read my post about silent scream and rebecca keesling.

No that is not my line of thinking.

My main objection is how most people in the "pro life" crowed think it is justifiable to FORCE a woman to continue a pregnancy from the moment of conception.

On what justification to they seek to impose this ? cause from the moment of conception a "person" exists who has "rights' rights which if in conflict with a womans bodily autonomy over ride those.

The various intellectual moves you have to make to try and make that work I call bullsh*t on.

The 12 week old fetus in the movie silent scream fight the abortion instruments before being killed. Do your really support putting a baby through that?

No I don't. But with that said where does this admission it get you ? that from the moment of conception woman have no choice to continue with the pregnancy ? nope.
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
ChrisL
Posts: 136
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2/8/2015 10:26:25 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/6/2015 7:56:11 PM, Varrack wrote:
At 2/6/2015 7:54:06 PM, SitaraMusica wrote:
At 2/6/2015 7:48:53 PM, Varrack wrote:
At 2/6/2015 7:41:44 PM, SitaraMusica wrote:
I will not judge. Now is your chance to preach the prolife message. Why should I consider being pprolife? I am having doubts about my position.

You should be pro life because abortion is unfair to babies. It only takes into consideration the mother's mistake and unfairly punishes the baby. It doesn't matter if you believe that a fetus is a collection of cells or not, because everything that can have a life like ours does not deserve to be deprived of that right. Also, some abortion go wrong and end up killing the mother too. Some mothers get abortions because they don't want to look fat. The government will protect animal fetuses, but not Fair enough. What if the mother has medical problems like life threatening stuff?human fetuses? Just doesn't make sense.
Jair enough. What if the moothers life is in dangerr?

Then yes, abortion should be allowed in that case. 2 lives are more important than one.

I agree with everything you said accept this one line. The mother's life doesn't hold more value than the child's. Doctors have an obligation to attempt to save both lives. The value of that child does not deminish when the health risk of the mother increases. By agreeing to allow abortions in these types of situations, you concede the pro choice argument. You are basically saying the mother's life is more valueable than the child's.
Chuz-Life
Posts: 1,789
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2/8/2015 10:52:58 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/8/2015 10:26:25 PM, ChrisL wrote:
At 2/6/2015 7:56:11 PM, Varrack wrote:
At 2/6/2015 7:54:06 PM, SitaraMusica wrote:
At 2/6/2015 7:48:53 PM, Varrack wrote:
At 2/6/2015 7:41:44 PM, SitaraMusica wrote:
I will not judge. Now is your chance to preach the prolife message. Why should I consider being pprolife? I am having doubts about my position.

You should be pro life because abortion is unfair to babies. It only takes into consideration the mother's mistake and unfairly punishes the baby. It doesn't matter if you believe that a fetus is a collection of cells or not, because everything that can have a life like ours does not deserve to be deprived of that right. Also, some abortion go wrong and end up killing the mother too. Some mothers get abortions because they don't want to look fat. The government will protect animal fetuses, but not Fair enough. What if the mother has medical problems like life threatening stuff?human fetuses? Just doesn't make sense.
Jair enough. What if the moothers life is in dangerr?

Then yes, abortion should be allowed in that case. 2 lives are more important than one.

I agree with everything you said accept this one line. The mother's life doesn't hold more value than the child's. Doctors have an obligation to attempt to save both lives. The value of that child does not deminish when the health risk of the mother increases. By agreeing to allow abortions in these types of situations, you concede the pro choice argument. You are basically saying the mother's life is more valueable than the child's.

I agree with you about doctors and the expectation that they should do everything they CAN do to save both lives. . . However! Sometimes it's a matter of biology and it has nothing to do with the way we value the lives. If a pregnant woman dies early in her pregnancy, it;s almost certain that the child will die with her. So, in those extreme (rare) cases where the doctors can not save both. . . shouldn't they at least save the one that they can?
"Sooner or later, the Supreme Court of the Unites States is going to have explain how a 'child in the womb' is a person enough to be recognized as a MURDER victim under our fetal homicide laws but how they are not persons enough to qualify for any other Constitutional protections" ~ Chuz Life

http://www.debate.org...
ChrisL
Posts: 136
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2/8/2015 11:33:53 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/8/2015 10:52:58 PM, Chuz-Life wrote:
At 2/8/2015 10:26:25 PM, ChrisL wrote:
At 2/6/2015 7:56:11 PM, Varrack wrote:
At 2/6/2015 7:54:06 PM, SitaraMusica wrote:
At 2/6/2015 7:48:53 PM, Varrack wrote:
At 2/6/2015 7:41:44 PM, SitaraMusica wrote:
I will not judge. Now is your chance to preach the prolife message. Why should I consider being pprolife? I am having doubts about my position.

You should be pro life because abortion is unfair to babies. It only takes into consideration the mother's mistake and unfairly punishes the baby. It doesn't matter if you believe that a fetus is a collection of cells or not, because everything that can have a life like ours does not deserve to be deprived of that right. Also, some abortion go wrong and end up killing the mother too. Some mothers get abortions because they don't want to look fat. The government will protect animal fetuses, but not Fair enough. What if the mother has medical problems like life threatening stuff?human fetuses? Just doesn't make sense.
Jair enough. What if the moothers life is in dangerr?

Then yes, abortion should be allowed in that case. 2 lives are more important than one.

I agree with everything you said accept this one line. The mother's life doesn't hold more value than the child's. Doctors have an obligation to attempt to save both lives. The value of that child does not deminish when the health risk of the mother increases. By agreeing to allow abortions in these types of situations, you concede the pro choice argument. You are basically saying the mother's life is more valueable than the child's.

I agree with you about doctors and the expectation that they should do everything they CAN do to save both lives. . . However! Sometimes it's a matter of biology and it has nothing to do with the way we value the lives. If a pregnant woman dies early in her pregnancy, it;s almost certain that the child will die with her. So, in those extreme (rare) cases where the doctors can not save both. . . shouldn't they at least save the one that they can?

Think about your question Chuz-life. If you truly consider the child to be a valued life how could you put any exception on abortion. Would you kill a 1 year old life to save his/hers mothers's life? How about a 6 year old? You've gotta remain consistent. Otherwise, you damage the basis for your entier pro-life argument.
Chuz-Life
Posts: 1,789
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2/9/2015 12:00:57 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/8/2015 11:33:53 PM, ChrisL wrote:
At 2/8/2015 10:52:58 PM, Chuz-Life wrote:
At 2/8/2015 10:26:25 PM, ChrisL wrote:
At 2/6/2015 7:56:11 PM, Varrack wrote:
At 2/6/2015 7:54:06 PM, SitaraMusica wrote:
At 2/6/2015 7:48:53 PM, Varrack wrote:
At 2/6/2015 7:41:44 PM, SitaraMusica wrote:
I will not judge. Now is your chance to preach the prolife message. Why should I consider being pprolife? I am having doubts about my position.

You should be pro life because abortion is unfair to babies. It only takes into consideration the mother's mistake and unfairly punishes the baby. It doesn't matter if you believe that a fetus is a collection of cells or not, because everything that can have a life like ours does not deserve to be deprived of that right. Also, some abortion go wrong and end up killing the mother too. Some mothers get abortions because they don't want to look fat. The government will protect animal fetuses, but not Fair enough. What if the mother has medical problems like life threatening stuff?human fetuses? Just doesn't make sense.
Jair enough. What if the moothers life is in dangerr?

Then yes, abortion should be allowed in that case. 2 lives are more important than one.

I agree with everything you said accept this one line. The mother's life doesn't hold more value than the child's. Doctors have an obligation to attempt to save both lives. The value of that child does not deminish when the health risk of the mother increases. By agreeing to allow abortions in these types of situations, you concede the pro choice argument. You are basically saying the mother's life is more valueable than the child's.

I agree with you about doctors and the expectation that they should do everything they CAN do to save both lives. . . However! Sometimes it's a matter of biology and it has nothing to do with the way we value the lives. If a pregnant woman dies early in her pregnancy, it;s almost certain that the child will die with her. So, in those extreme (rare) cases where the doctors can not save both. . . shouldn't they at least save the one that they can?

Think about your question Chuz-life.

I've done more than think about it. I was nearly forced into making that decision when my wife's body was rejecting our daughters body.

If you truly consider the child to be a valued life how could you put any exception on abortion.

I don't base my views on the "value" of anyone so justifications are not based on that. My premise is simple. It is Constitutionally based and it is sound. All persons have an equal right to their life and to the protections of our laws. All killings of persons are homicides. Most homicides can not be justified and so they are murders / criminal. Some homicides can be justified as acts of self defense.

Would you kill a 1 year old life to save his/hers mothers's life?

I can't imagine a case where that would ever be necessary but I can't completely rule it out either.

How about a 6 year old?

See above.

You've gotta remain consistent. Otherwise, you damage the basis for your entier pro-life argument.

Okay, 1) I am anti-abortion and I don't consider myself to be "pro-life." Pro-lifers tend to think all lives are sacred and that killing another person can never be justified. I support the death penalty and the use of deadly force when and where it can be Constitutionally justified.

In fact, if I could find Constitutional justification for voluntary / elective abortions. . . whether an abortion kills a child or not. . . I would not oppose it. But I can not find such justification in the vast majority of abortions.
"Sooner or later, the Supreme Court of the Unites States is going to have explain how a 'child in the womb' is a person enough to be recognized as a MURDER victim under our fetal homicide laws but how they are not persons enough to qualify for any other Constitutional protections" ~ Chuz Life

http://www.debate.org...
ChrisL
Posts: 136
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2/9/2015 1:14:34 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/9/2015 12:00:57 AM, Chuz-Life wrote:
At 2/8/2015 11:33:53 PM, ChrisL wrote:
At 2/8/2015 10:52:58 PM, Chuz-Life wrote:
At 2/8/2015 10:26:25 PM, ChrisL wrote:
At 2/6/2015 7:56:11 PM, Varrack wrote:
At 2/6/2015 7:54:06 PM, SitaraMusica wrote:
At 2/6/2015 7:48:53 PM, Varrack wrote:
At 2/6/2015 7:41:44 PM, SitaraMusica wrote:
I will not judge. Now is your chance to preach the prolife message. Why should I consider being pprolife? I am having doubts about my position.

You should be pro life because abortion is unfair to babies. It only takes into consideration the mother's mistake and unfairly punishes the baby. It doesn't matter if you believe that a fetus is a collection of cells or not, because everything that can have a life like ours does not deserve to be deprived of that right. Also, some abortion go wrong and end up killing the mother too. Some mothers get abortions because they don't want to look fat. The government will protect animal fetuses, but not Fair enough. What if the mother has medical problems like life threatening stuff?human fetuses? Just doesn't make sense.
Jair enough. What if the moothers life is in dangerr?

Then yes, abortion should be allowed in that case. 2 lives are more important than one.

I agree with everything you said accept this one line. The mother's life doesn't hold more value than the child's. Doctors have an obligation to attempt to save both lives. The value of that child does not deminish when the health risk of the mother increases. By agreeing to allow abortions in these types of situations, you concede the pro choice argument. You are basically saying the mother's life is more valueable than the child's.

I agree with you about doctors and the expectation that they should do everything they CAN do to save both lives. . . However! Sometimes it's a matter of biology and it has nothing to do with the way we value the lives. If a pregnant woman dies early in her pregnancy, it;s almost certain that the child will die with her. So, in those extreme (rare) cases where the doctors can not save both. . . shouldn't they at least save the one that they can?

Think about your question Chuz-life.

I've done more than think about it. I was nearly forced into making that decision when my wife's body was rejecting our daughters body.

Well with all sincerity I want to say that I am pleased to know it work out well for the both of them. I also want to preface everything I say in this conversation by saying that I intend on offending no one. I see this is an issue that hits home with you and I don't want to seem insensitive. I care about all parties involved in these situations. The ramifications of my positions may be offensive to some, but that is not a reflection on me, it is just the nature of every view on this morally heavy topic.

If you truly consider the child to be a valued life how could you put any exception on abortion.

I don't base my views on the "value" of anyone so justifications are not based on that. My premise is simple. It is Constitutionally based and it is sound. All persons have an equal right to their life and to the protections of our laws.

And this is a where we different. Interestingly enough, we have the same conclusion but we get their in different ways. The problem with the way you get to your conclusion is that it is subjective. There is no real objective basis for your position. To base your position in the constitution is only begging the question. Who says the constitution is right? How could anyone know it is right? When we are talking about life and death, we need to have more than mere human conjecture. This is the hole in the argument for all who are for abortion. But if you ground your position in a subjective source, you find yourself in the same hole.

All killings of persons are homicides.

This is not true. A homicide is by definition an unlawful killing. It is another word for murder. A killing becomes a murder of it is unlawful. Otherwise it's just a killing.

Most homicides can not be justified and so they are murders / criminal. Some homicides can be justified as acts of self defense.

Would you kill a 1 year old life to save his/hers mothers's life?

I can't imagine a case where that would ever be necessary but I can't completely rule it out either.

How about a 6 year old?

See above.

Your obviously seeking to be consistent at this point which I can respect to a degree. But this is all pointing back to a subjective basis. Even if you can prove that aborting a fetus or killing a 6 year old is constitutional, it doesn't mean it's right. It only means it's constitutional. I, personally, an interested on truth. That's what my aim is here.


You've gotta remain consistent. Otherwise, you damage the basis for your entier pro-life argument.

Okay, 1) I am anti-abortion and I don't consider myself to be "pro-life." Pro-lifers tend to think all lives are sacred and that killing another person can never be justified.

I agree with you all the way up to the last thing you mentioned. This is because you are using killing and murder interchangeably when they have to different meanings. I personally believe that a "killing" can be justified. A murder cannot be.

I support the death penalty and the use of deadly force when and where it can be Constitutionally justified.

I agree and will go a step further. I support those things where they can be morally justified.

In fact, if I could find Constitutional justification for voluntary / elective abortions. . . whether an abortion kills a child or not. . . I would not oppose it. But I can not find such justification in the vast majority of abortions.

Once again this points to the lack of foundation for your convictions on this subject(and pretty much ever other one as well).

Quick question

If the constitution became obsolete over night, where would you derive your ethics from?
Chuz-Life
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2/9/2015 1:54:15 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/9/2015 1:14:34 AM, ChrisL wrote:
At 2/9/2015 12:00:57 AM, Chuz-Life wrote:

Well with all sincerity I want to say that I am pleased to know it work out well for the both of them.

Thank You.

I also want to preface everything I say in this conversation by saying that I intend on offending no one. I see this is an issue that hits home with you and I don't want to seem insensitive. I care about all parties involved in these situations. The ramifications of my positions may be offensive to some, but that is not a reflection on me, it is just the nature of every view on this morally heavy topic.

I understand completely.

If you truly consider the child to be a valued life how could you put any exception on abortion.

I don't base my views on the "value" of anyone so justifications are not based on that. My premise is simple. It is Constitutionally based and it is sound. All persons have an equal right to their life and to the protections of our laws.

And this is a where we different. Interestingly enough, we have the same conclusion but we get their in different ways. The problem with the way you get to your conclusion is that it is subjective. There is no real objective basis for your position. To base your position in the constitution is only begging the question. Who says the constitution is right?

Right or wrong, our Constitution is the supreme law of the land (U.S.) I see no reason to conclude that it has it wrong though. What can anyone have against the idea of equal rights and "equal" protections?

How could anyone know it is right?

See above.

When we are talking about life and death, we need to have more than mere human conjecture.

I agree.

This is the hole in the argument for all who are for abortion. But if you ground your position in a subjective source, you find yourself in the same hole.


I don't agree with your claim that it is subjective.

All killings of persons are homicides.

This is not true. A homicide is by definition an unlawful killing.
It is another word for murder. A killing becomes a murder of it is unlawful. Otherwise it's just a killing.


I'm sorry but you not only have that wrong, you are also contradicting yourself.

"To begin with, not all homicides are crimes. Homicides include all killings of humans. Many homicides, such as murder and manslaughter, violate criminal laws. Others, such as a killing committed in justified self-defense, are not criminal. Illegal killings range from manslaughter to murder, with multiple degrees of each representing the gravity of the crime." - See more at: http://criminal.findlaw.com...

Most homicides can not be justified and so they are murders / criminal. Some homicides can be justified as acts of self defense.

Would you kill a 1 year old life to save his/hers mothers's life?

I can't imagine a case where that would ever be necessary but I can't completely rule it out either.

How about a 6 year old?

See above.

Your obviously seeking to be consistent at this point which I can respect to a degree. But this is all pointing back to a subjective basis. Even if you can prove that aborting a fetus or killing a 6 year old is constitutional, it doesn't mean it's right.

Morally speaking, I might agree with you. However, our laws are not written to enforce "morality" onto the people - though they do almost always have a moral aspect or component.

It only means it's constitutional. I, personally, an interested on truth. That's what my aim is here.

Okay, well the truth / reality is that some killings can be legally, constitutionally and maybe even morally "justified."


You've gotta remain consistent. Otherwise, you damage the basis for your entier pro-life argument.

Okay, 1) I am anti-abortion and I don't consider myself to be "pro-life." Pro-lifers tend to think all lives are sacred and that killing another person can never be justified.

I agree with you all the way up to the last thing you mentioned. This is because you are using killing and murder interchangeably when they have to different meanings.

<face desk> you just said earlier that they are the same.

I personally believe that a "killing" can be justified. A murder cannot be.

Same here.

I support the death penalty and the use of deadly force when and where it can be Constitutionally justified.

Same here.

I agree and will go a step further. I support those things where they can be morally justified.

Ditto

In fact, if I could find Constitutional justification for voluntary / elective abortions. . . whether an abortion kills a child or not. . . I would not oppose it. But I can not find such justification in the vast majority of abortions.

Once again this points to the lack of foundation for your convictions on this subject(and pretty much ever other one as well).

I understand that when it comes from a "moral" perspective. However, the Constitution (not the Bible) is the supreme law of our land and when you take on a more Constitutional / legal perspective. . . You'll see that I have a very solid foundation for my views.

Quick question

Sure.

If the constitution became obsolete over night, where would you derive your ethics from?

That's a fair question, I suppose but I don't see that ever happening. If we had no Constitution, we would have nothing to support our laws as they are now based on Constitutional principles too. We would pretty much have total anarchy and I'm sure I would be more concerned about survival and defending myself and my family than I would be about the ethics involved.

That said, I do consider myself to an ethical person. The source of which would be my parents and grandparents, religion and a general satisfaction of doing "good."
"Sooner or later, the Supreme Court of the Unites States is going to have explain how a 'child in the womb' is a person enough to be recognized as a MURDER victim under our fetal homicide laws but how they are not persons enough to qualify for any other Constitutional protections" ~ Chuz Life

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Dilara
Posts: 661
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2/9/2015 5:23:56 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/8/2015 10:05:51 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
At 2/8/2015 8:40:05 PM, Dilara wrote:
At 2/6/2015 10:41:19 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
At 2/6/2015 9:17:00 PM, SitaraMusica wrote:
At 2/6/2015 8:41:27 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 2/6/2015 7:41:44 PM, SitaraMusica wrote:
I will not judge. Now is your chance to preach the prolife message. Why should I consider being pprolife? I am having doubts about my position.

Do you believe that a fetus is not a human being entitled to the fundamental right to life that humans have, or do you believe that they are, but that they should be aborted anyway because you view the mother's interests to be of higher priority?

I'm considering being prolife byut Im afraid of being wrong.

But what exactly do you have in mind ?

The most common thing I see under the Pro life is that from the moment of conception a woman has no choice whether to continue a pregnancy, that is to say they want it to be illegal.

You could be pro life in the sense that you don't believe that abortion should be done BUT that lack of choice of abortion should not be forced upon a woman by law.

You could also be a pro life/pro choice position that a woman should have the legal right of abortion where x,y,z but shouldn't in where a,bc.

I think the most common pro life position I encounter that being that a woman should not have any choice in continuing in a pregnancy cause from the moment of conception the organism is a "person" with full rights of personhood that override any rights of the woman is well..................bullsh*t.

You think ones life is less important than a girls social status? Read my post about silent scream and rebecca keesling.

No that is not my line of thinking.

My main objection is how most people in the "pro life" crowed think it is justifiable to FORCE a woman to continue a pregnancy from the moment of conception.

On what justification to they seek to impose this ? cause from the moment of conception a "person" exists who has "rights' rights which if in conflict with a womans bodily autonomy over ride those.

The various intellectual moves you have to make to try and make that work I call bullsh*t on.


The 12 week old fetus in the movie silent scream fight the abortion instruments before being killed. Do your really support putting a baby through that?

No I don't. But with that said where does this admission it get you ? that from the moment of conception woman have no choice to continue with the pregnancy ? nope.
Watch silent scream and read about rebecca keesling. I used to be pro choice until I did those things.
Illegalcombatant
Posts: 4,008
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2/9/2015 5:31:53 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/9/2015 5:23:56 PM, Dilara wrote:
At 2/8/2015 10:05:51 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
At 2/8/2015 8:40:05 PM, Dilara wrote:
At 2/6/2015 10:41:19 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
At 2/6/2015 9:17:00 PM, SitaraMusica wrote:
At 2/6/2015 8:41:27 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 2/6/2015 7:41:44 PM, SitaraMusica wrote:
I will not judge. Now is your chance to preach the prolife message. Why should I consider being pprolife? I am having doubts about my position.

Do you believe that a fetus is not a human being entitled to the fundamental right to life that humans have, or do you believe that they are, but that they should be aborted anyway because you view the mother's interests to be of higher priority?

I'm considering being prolife byut Im afraid of being wrong.

But what exactly do you have in mind ?

The most common thing I see under the Pro life is that from the moment of conception a woman has no choice whether to continue a pregnancy, that is to say they want it to be illegal.

You could be pro life in the sense that you don't believe that abortion should be done BUT that lack of choice of abortion should not be forced upon a woman by law.

You could also be a pro life/pro choice position that a woman should have the legal right of abortion where x,y,z but shouldn't in where a,bc.

I think the most common pro life position I encounter that being that a woman should not have any choice in continuing in a pregnancy cause from the moment of conception the organism is a "person" with full rights of personhood that override any rights of the woman is well..................bullsh*t.

You think ones life is less important than a girls social status? Read my post about silent scream and rebecca keesling.

No that is not my line of thinking.

My main objection is how most people in the "pro life" crowed think it is justifiable to FORCE a woman to continue a pregnancy from the moment of conception.

On what justification to they seek to impose this ? cause from the moment of conception a "person" exists who has "rights' rights which if in conflict with a womans bodily autonomy over ride those.

The various intellectual moves you have to make to try and make that work I call bullsh*t on.


The 12 week old fetus in the movie silent scream fight the abortion instruments before being killed. Do your really support putting a baby through that?

No I don't. But with that said where does this admission it get you ? that from the moment of conception woman have no choice to continue with the pregnancy ? nope.
Watch silent scream and read about rebecca keesling. I used to be pro choice until I did those things.

Again for the sake of argument let's ban abortion from 12 weeks on or 10 or what ever.

Remember my main objection here is how from the moment of conception most "pro life" want women forced to continue with pregnancy and the various moves you have to make to justify this I call bullsh*t on.
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
Such
Posts: 1,110
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2/9/2015 5:41:31 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/6/2015 7:41:44 PM, SitaraMusica wrote:
I will not judge. Now is your chance to preach the prolife message. Why should I consider being pprolife? I am having doubts about my position.

In real existence, separate of our beliefs or perspectives or attachments or predilections, a child is conceived in a woman's body only, and therefore, women should determine the parameters by which a child is conceived.

Granted, that isn't necessarily pro life or pro choice, but it does remove both you and I from its determination, as it should be.
Dilara
Posts: 661
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2/9/2015 6:23:49 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/9/2015 5:31:53 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
At 2/9/2015 5:23:56 PM, Dilara wrote:
At 2/8/2015 10:05:51 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
At 2/8/2015 8:40:05 PM, Dilara wrote:
At 2/6/2015 10:41:19 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
At 2/6/2015 9:17:00 PM, SitaraMusica wrote:
At 2/6/2015 8:41:27 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 2/6/2015 7:41:44 PM, SitaraMusica wrote:
I will not judge. Now is your chance to preach the prolife message. Why should I consider being pprolife? I am having doubts about my position.

Do you believe that a fetus is not a human being entitled to the fundamental right to life that humans have, or do you believe that they are, but that they should be aborted anyway because you view the mother's interests to be of higher priority?

I'm considering being prolife byut Im afraid of being wrong.

But what exactly do you have in mind ?

The most common thing I see under the Pro life is that from the moment of conception a woman has no choice whether to continue a pregnancy, that is to say they want it to be illegal.

You could be pro life in the sense that you don't believe that abortion should be done BUT that lack of choice of abortion should not be forced upon a woman by law.

You could also be a pro life/pro choice position that a woman should have the legal right of abortion where x,y,z but shouldn't in where a,bc.

I think the most common pro life position I encounter that being that a woman should not have any choice in continuing in a pregnancy cause from the moment of conception the organism is a "person" with full rights of personhood that override any rights of the woman is well..................bullsh*t.

You think ones life is less important than a girls social status? Read my post about silent scream and rebecca keesling.

No that is not my line of thinking.

My main objection is how most people in the "pro life" crowed think it is justifiable to FORCE a woman to continue a pregnancy from the moment of conception.

On what justification to they seek to impose this ? cause from the moment of conception a "person" exists who has "rights' rights which if in conflict with a womans bodily autonomy over ride those.

The various intellectual moves you have to make to try and make that work I call bullsh*t on.


The 12 week old fetus in the movie silent scream fight the abortion instruments before being killed. Do your really support putting a baby through that?

No I don't. But with that said where does this admission it get you ? that from the moment of conception woman have no choice to continue with the pregnancy ? nope.
Watch silent scream and read about rebecca keesling. I used to be pro choice until I did those things.

Again for the sake of argument let's ban abortion from 12 weeks on or 10 or what ever.

Remember my main objection here is how from the moment of conception most "pro life" want women forced to continue with pregnancy and the various moves you have to make to justify this I call bullsh*t on.
Banned after 12 weeks sounds good to me.
Illegalcombatant
Posts: 4,008
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2/9/2015 6:24:51 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/9/2015 6:23:49 PM, Dilara wrote:
At 2/9/2015 5:31:53 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
At 2/9/2015 5:23:56 PM, Dilara wrote:
At 2/8/2015 10:05:51 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
At 2/8/2015 8:40:05 PM, Dilara wrote:
At 2/6/2015 10:41:19 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
At 2/6/2015 9:17:00 PM, SitaraMusica wrote:
At 2/6/2015 8:41:27 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 2/6/2015 7:41:44 PM, SitaraMusica wrote:
I will not judge. Now is your chance to preach the prolife message. Why should I consider being pprolife? I am having doubts about my position.

Do you believe that a fetus is not a human being entitled to the fundamental right to life that humans have, or do you believe that they are, but that they should be aborted anyway because you view the mother's interests to be of higher priority?

I'm considering being prolife byut Im afraid of being wrong.

But what exactly do you have in mind ?

The most common thing I see under the Pro life is that from the moment of conception a woman has no choice whether to continue a pregnancy, that is to say they want it to be illegal.

You could be pro life in the sense that you don't believe that abortion should be done BUT that lack of choice of abortion should not be forced upon a woman by law.

You could also be a pro life/pro choice position that a woman should have the legal right of abortion where x,y,z but shouldn't in where a,bc.

I think the most common pro life position I encounter that being that a woman should not have any choice in continuing in a pregnancy cause from the moment of conception the organism is a "person" with full rights of personhood that override any rights of the woman is well..................bullsh*t.

You think ones life is less important than a girls social status? Read my post about silent scream and rebecca keesling.

No that is not my line of thinking.

My main objection is how most people in the "pro life" crowed think it is justifiable to FORCE a woman to continue a pregnancy from the moment of conception.

On what justification to they seek to impose this ? cause from the moment of conception a "person" exists who has "rights' rights which if in conflict with a womans bodily autonomy over ride those.

The various intellectual moves you have to make to try and make that work I call bullsh*t on.


The 12 week old fetus in the movie silent scream fight the abortion instruments before being killed. Do your really support putting a baby through that?

No I don't. But with that said where does this admission it get you ? that from the moment of conception woman have no choice to continue with the pregnancy ? nope.
Watch silent scream and read about rebecca keesling. I used to be pro choice until I did those things.

Again for the sake of argument let's ban abortion from 12 weeks on or 10 or what ever.

Remember my main objection here is how from the moment of conception most "pro life" want women forced to continue with pregnancy and the various moves you have to make to justify this I call bullsh*t on.
Banned after 12 weeks sounds good to me.

And what about before those 12 weeks ? does the woman get a choice ?
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12