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I'm having doubts about abortion.

Vox_Veritas
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2/7/2015 8:37:10 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/7/2015 7:24:19 PM, SitaraMusica wrote:
I am willing to hear both sides.

What happened to the other thread?
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airmax1227
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2/7/2015 8:54:08 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/7/2015 7:24:19 PM, SitaraMusica wrote:
I am willing to hear both sides.

http://abortion.procon.org...

Pro

Reproductive choice empowers women by giving them control over their own bodies

Personhood begins after a fetus becomes "viable" (able to survive outside the womb) or after birth, not at conception

Access to legal, professionally-performed abortions reduces maternal injury and death caused by unsafe, illegal abortions

Women who are denied abortions are more likely to become unemployed, to be on public welfare, to be below the poverty line, and to become victims of domestic violence

Reproductive choice protects women from financial disadvantage

A baby should not come into the world unwanted

Con


Abortion is murder

Life begins at conception, so unborn babies are human beings with a right to life

Fetuses feel pain during the abortion procedure

Abortion is the killing of a human being, which defies the word of God

Abortions cause psychological damage

Women should not be able to use abortion as a form of contraception

Abortion may lead to future medical problems for the mother

....

Or you can dismiss all of these arguments. You seem to be on the fence about the issue, since I believe I've seen you change your position several times, so its not necessary for you to take an all or nothing approach either way.

You can be Con on abortion, like I am, but recognize that most borderline moral decisions are best left up to the individual and not the government. In this case, anything aside from late term abortions is generally viewed as a moral gray area in our society, and so while not ideal, seems necessary to allow some leeway.

I respect both points of view and understand them both (so I don't generally argue abortion issues), and am not really passionate one way or another aside from the belief described above (being that moral gray areas need to be left up to individuals).

I think Pro-life people are well intentioned, as I believe are pro-choice people. It's not an easy side to take, so I respect the fact that you've had difficulty deciding on an ultimate position to take.
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SitaraMusica
Posts: 1,060
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2/7/2015 9:01:35 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/7/2015 8:54:08 PM, airmax1227 wrote:
At 2/7/2015 7:24:19 PM, SitaraMusica wrote:
I am willing to hear both sides.

http://abortion.procon.org...

Pro

Reproductive choice empowers women by giving them control over their own bodies

Personhood begins after a fetus becomes "viable" (able to survive outside the womb) or after birth, not at conception

Access to legal, professionally-performed abortions reduces maternal injury and death caused by unsafe, illegal abortions

Women who are denied abortions are more likely to become unemployed, to be on public welfare, to be below the poverty line, and to become victims of domestic violence

Reproductive choice protects women from financial disadvantage

A baby should not come into the world unwanted

Con


Abortion is murder

Life begins at conception, so unborn babies are human beings with a right to life

Fetuses feel pain during the abortion procedure

Abortion is the killing of a human being, which defies the word of God

Abortions cause psychological damage

Women should not be able to use abortion as a form of contraception

Abortion may lead to future medical problems for the mother

....

Or you can dismiss all of these arguments. You seem to be on the fence about the issue, since I believe I've seen you change your position several times, so its not necessary for you to take an all or nothing approach either way.

You can be Con on abortion, like I am, but recognize that most borderline moral decisions are best left up to the individual and not the government. In this case, anything aside from late term abortions is generally viewed as a moral gray area in our society, and so while not ideal, seems necessary to allow some leeway.

I respect both points of view and understand them both (so I don't generally argue abortion issues), and am not really passionate one way or another aside from the belief described above (being that moral gray areas need to be left up to individuals).

I think Pro-life people are well intentioned, as I believe are pro-choice people. It's not an easy side to take, so I respect the fact that you've had difficulty deciding on an ultimate position to take.

Thank you.
Varrack
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2/7/2015 9:04:06 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/7/2015 8:40:48 PM, SitaraMusica wrote:
Nothing that I know of. I'm just having doubts. I watched a scare movie on abortion.

I've seen a video of an ultrasound abortion. The baby's flesh is ripped apart by the prod, the body parts are scattered around the womb, and the head is crushed while its contents spill out.

Not something I want to support.
Maikuru
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2/7/2015 9:17:13 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/7/2015 9:04:06 PM, Varrack wrote:
At 2/7/2015 8:40:48 PM, SitaraMusica wrote:
Nothing that I know of. I'm just having doubts. I watched a scare movie on abortion.

I've seen a video of an ultrasound abortion. The baby's flesh is ripped apart by the prod, the body parts are scattered around the womb, and the head is crushed while its contents spill out.

Not something I want to support.

They tried to get me to watch a video about how burgers are made. Nice try, losers!
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Chuz-Life
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2/7/2015 9:55:19 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
This: https://www.youtube.com...
"Sooner or later, the Supreme Court of the Unites States is going to have explain how a 'child in the womb' is a person enough to be recognized as a MURDER victim under our fetal homicide laws but how they are not persons enough to qualify for any other Constitutional protections" ~ Chuz Life

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Chuz-Life
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2/7/2015 10:16:30 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/7/2015 8:54:08 PM, airmax1227 wrote:
At 2/7/2015 7:24:19 PM, SitaraMusica wrote:
I am willing to hear both sides.


Your's was a good start Airmax, but I have to tweak it a little.

Con

Abortion is murder

^^^ This


Life begins at conception, so prenatal human beings are persons with a Constitutional right to their life

^^^ Fixed

Fetuses feel pain during the abortion procedure

I never understood that one. Though it is rare, there are people who can not feel pain at all. They are still 'persons' though and they are entitled to the protections of our laws.

Abortion is the killing of a human being, which defies the word of God

Maybe true, maybe not. It's a non starter though because the First Amendment does not allow for abortions to be banned - based on religious dogma alone. In my experience, the use of religion in an abortion debate only prolongs the debate or derails it entirely.

Abortions cause psychological damage

I've witnessed this myself.

Women should not be able to use abortion as a form of contraception

LOL. I know that's a position that some hold but "contraception" is a means to prevent conception from taking place. So, by the time you have an abortion - it's days, weeks or even months too late to call it a "form of contraception."

Abortion may lead to future medical problems for the mother

Also true.

I would add that all of the things that legalized abortion was intended to improve for society still exists today. In fact, abortion and the pro-abortion mindset may even be making things worse. Unwed motherhood, child abuse, neglect, welfare dependency. . . etc.

I would also add to the list of Cons - the fact that abortion on demand actually provides a reward of sorts for predatory / dead beat men who use the legality and availability of abortion to victimize women and as an excuse to shirk any responsibilities they might have had for the children they 'father' (sic).

They knock a woman up - try to force her to abort if they can and then leave her alone to deal with the mess. Move on to the next girl and do the same thing again. Legalized abortion is nothing more than a way to avoid ever having to face child support.
"Sooner or later, the Supreme Court of the Unites States is going to have explain how a 'child in the womb' is a person enough to be recognized as a MURDER victim under our fetal homicide laws but how they are not persons enough to qualify for any other Constitutional protections" ~ Chuz Life

http://www.debate.org...
Dilara
Posts: 661
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2/10/2015 4:20:57 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/7/2015 7:24:19 PM, SitaraMusica wrote:
I am willing to hear both sides.
I was pro choice until I heard Rebecca Keeslings a story. Her mother wanted to abort her bit couldn't because Rebecca had been conceived before roe v wade. Rebecca was born and now lives a happy life. Could you tell her that if you had your way she would have been aborted? Is her life that she now enjoys less valuable than her moms social life? Everyone deserves a chance at life.
Daffypuck
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2/13/2015 9:08:47 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
I have a few thoughts and questions on this topic.
1. Why is abortion legal, but a person can be charged with 2 counts of murder if they kill a pregnant woman?? That's a double standard. I wonder how many pro-choice folks wouldn't mind (say "Oh, he didn't murder my fetus.") if a criminal caused the death of their unborn child during the committal of a crime?
2. In order to argue this, and anything, both parties must have a common ground starting point that they both agree upon.
3. My position on abortion is this: "Id rather sleep with a clear conscience each night and err on the side of life, than to wake up one day and find out I was wrong and live a life of regret."
SNP1
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2/13/2015 9:23:18 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Addressing the con's airmax brought up:

Abortion is murder

Depends on how you define murder and person. I define it as killing a person, and I agree with the definition of person used in Star Trek TNG where Data was allowed personhood. By that definition, a fetus would not have personhood until about 24 weeks.

Life begins at conception, so unborn babies are human beings with a right to life

I agree that life begins at conception, but is it a human BEING?

Fetuses feel pain during the abortion procedure

Not true. Pain can only be felt if the cerebral cortex to have the ability to feel pain. The cerebral cortex is not active until about 24 weeks, and almost every abortion happens before that.

Abortion is the killing of a human being, which defies the word of God

In a secular nation, what one person says that god says means nothing.

Abortions cause psychological damage

This is usually caused when the person getting the abortion is afterwards exposed to new information (whether that information is true or not).

Women should not be able to use abortion as a form of contraception

Pure opinion

Abortion may lead to future medical problems for the mother

I need to look at this a bit more.
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ChristianPunk
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2/17/2015 8:42:10 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/7/2015 7:24:19 PM, SitaraMusica wrote:
I am willing to hear both sides.

While women should have their birth rights, we should consider what life is considered. And the bible clearly defines life as in the blood, one with blood in it. You can test this by draining all the blood from something. They aren't really gonna be lively. Or even be alive. So if the fetus doesn't have blood in it's systems, then it's not considered alive.
Vox_Veritas
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2/17/2015 8:51:12 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/17/2015 8:42:10 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
At 2/7/2015 7:24:19 PM, SitaraMusica wrote:
I am willing to hear both sides.

While women should have their birth rights, we should consider what life is considered. And the bible clearly defines life as in the blood, one with blood in it. You can test this by draining all the blood from something. They aren't really gonna be lively. Or even be alive. So if the fetus doesn't have blood in it's systems, then it's not considered alive.

I'm not sure that I agree with this, but thumbs up for originality. :)
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Envisage
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2/17/2015 8:59:36 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/7/2015 7:24:19 PM, SitaraMusica wrote:
I am willing to hear both sides.

Allowing abortion will give us greater flexibility and control over the gene pool. We can abort defective fetuses before they come to term, or abort fetuses with genetic disorders, etc.

Moreover abortion laws hinders a lot of research, especially in stem cells, which are done on fetuses that was light years from having any human-like qualities (no nervous system, no organs, nothing). So allowing abortion legally gives much greater flexibility to beneficial applications.

Pro-lifers need to ask themselves the question of why they value life in the first place, and once that fundemental answer is found, then see if it's relevant to an abortion scenario. Given that abortion, especially in the early term, kills of something that I attribute virtually no value, since it's just a mass of tissue, with no feature which I find valuable. No capacity for pain, thought, feelings, or mental processes, then I don't see why I should care about it.
SitaraMusica
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2/18/2015 12:53:44 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/17/2015 8:59:36 PM, Envisage wrote:
At 2/7/2015 7:24:19 PM, SitaraMusica wrote:
I am willing to hear both sides.

Allowing abortion will give us greater flexibility and control over the gene pool. We can abort defective fetuses before they come to term, or abort fetuses with genetic disorders, etc.

Moreover abortion laws hinders a lot of research, especially in stem cells, which are done on fetuses that was light years from having any human-like qualities (no nervous system, no organs, nothing). So allowing abortion legally gives much greater flexibility to beneficial applications.

Pro-lifers need to ask themselves the question of why they value life in the first place, and once that fundemental answer is found, then see if it's relevant to an abortion scenario. Given that abortion, especially in the early term, kills of something that I attribute virtually no value, since it's just a mass of tissue, with no feature which I find valuable. No capacity for pain, thought, feelings, or mental processes, then I don't see why I should care about it.
"Allowing abortion will give us greater control over the gene pool." That sounds a lot like eugenics.
Envisage
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2/18/2015 1:07:32 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/18/2015 12:53:44 PM, SitaraMusica wrote:
At 2/17/2015 8:59:36 PM, Envisage wrote:
At 2/7/2015 7:24:19 PM, SitaraMusica wrote:
I am willing to hear both sides.

Allowing abortion will give us greater flexibility and control over the gene pool. We can abort defective fetuses before they come to term, or abort fetuses with genetic disorders, etc.

Moreover abortion laws hinders a lot of research, especially in stem cells, which are done on fetuses that was light years from having any human-like qualities (no nervous system, no organs, nothing). So allowing abortion legally gives much greater flexibility to beneficial applications.

Pro-lifers need to ask themselves the question of why they value life in the first place, and once that fundemental answer is found, then see if it's relevant to an abortion scenario. Given that abortion, especially in the early term, kills of something that I attribute virtually no value, since it's just a mass of tissue, with no feature which I find valuable. No capacity for pain, thought, feelings, or mental processes, then I don't see why I should care about it.
"Allowing abortion will give us greater control over the gene pool." That sounds a lot like eugenics.

That's exactly what it is.
SitaraMusica
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2/18/2015 1:11:03 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/18/2015 1:07:32 PM, Envisage wrote:
At 2/18/2015 12:53:44 PM, SitaraMusica wrote:
At 2/17/2015 8:59:36 PM, Envisage wrote:
At 2/7/2015 7:24:19 PM, SitaraMusica wrote:
I am willing to hear both sides.

Allowing abortion will give us greater flexibility and control over the gene pool. We can abort defective fetuses before they come to term, or abort fetuses with genetic disorders, etc.

Moreover abortion laws hinders a lot of research, especially in stem cells, which are done on fetuses that was light years from having any human-like qualities (no nervous system, no organs, nothing). So allowing abortion legally gives much greater flexibility to beneficial applications.

Pro-lifers need to ask themselves the question of why they value life in the first place, and once that fundemental answer is found, then see if it's relevant to an abortion scenario. Given that abortion, especially in the early term, kills of something that I attribute virtually no value, since it's just a mass of tissue, with no feature which I find valuable. No capacity for pain, thought, feelings, or mental processes, then I don't see why I should care about it.
"Allowing abortion will give us greater control over the gene pool." That sounds a lot like eugenics.

That's exactly what it is.

Agreed. Eugenics is scary.
debate_power
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2/19/2015 2:14:51 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/7/2015 7:24:19 PM, SitaraMusica wrote:
I am willing to hear both sides.

There is evidence which seems to suggest abortion can lower crime rates in some cases.
You can call me Mark if you like.
SitaraMusica
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2/19/2015 2:34:42 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/19/2015 2:14:51 PM, debate_power wrote:
At 2/7/2015 7:24:19 PM, SitaraMusica wrote:
I am willing to hear both sides.

There is evidence which seems to suggest abortion can lower crime rates in some cases.
Yeah my counselor said that. Im not sure how, though.
debate_power
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2/19/2015 2:49:05 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/19/2015 2:34:42 PM, SitaraMusica wrote:
At 2/19/2015 2:14:51 PM, debate_power wrote:
At 2/7/2015 7:24:19 PM, SitaraMusica wrote:
I am willing to hear both sides.

There is evidence which seems to suggest abortion can lower crime rates in some cases.
Yeah my counselor said that. Im not sure how, though.

Check out "Freakonomics"
You can call me Mark if you like.
SitaraMusica
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2/19/2015 2:53:22 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/19/2015 2:49:05 PM, debate_power wrote:
At 2/19/2015 2:34:42 PM, SitaraMusica wrote:
At 2/19/2015 2:14:51 PM, debate_power wrote:
At 2/7/2015 7:24:19 PM, SitaraMusica wrote:
I am willing to hear both sides.

There is evidence which seems to suggest abortion can lower crime rates in some cases.
Yeah my counselor said that. Im not sure how, though.

Check out "Freakonomics"
Will do.
debate_power
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2/19/2015 2:53:53 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/19/2015 2:53:22 PM, SitaraMusica wrote:
At 2/19/2015 2:49:05 PM, debate_power wrote:
At 2/19/2015 2:34:42 PM, SitaraMusica wrote:
At 2/19/2015 2:14:51 PM, debate_power wrote:
At 2/7/2015 7:24:19 PM, SitaraMusica wrote:
I am willing to hear both sides.

There is evidence which seems to suggest abortion can lower crime rates in some cases.
Yeah my counselor said that. Im not sure how, though.

Check out "Freakonomics"
Will do.

Make sure you check it against other sources, though. I should have done that.
You can call me Mark if you like.
Beginner
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2/19/2015 2:54:53 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/19/2015 2:34:42 PM, SitaraMusica wrote:
At 2/19/2015 2:14:51 PM, debate_power wrote:
At 2/7/2015 7:24:19 PM, SitaraMusica wrote:
I am willing to hear both sides.

There is evidence which seems to suggest abortion can lower crime rates in some cases.
Yeah my counselor said that. Im not sure how, though.

Generally: Babies born during periods of anti-abortion are prone to be born into unfavorable environments. One of the reasons women want abortion is because they feel they'd be unable to support the child they bear. These children are more likely to become criminals than children born in good environments. I remember seeing a graph somewhere which showed that about 15-20 years after anti-abortion laws were implemented, crime rate jumped up. Now there might be other causes, but the correlation and theory is there.
Senpai has noticed you.
Chuz-Life
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2/20/2015 2:07:04 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/19/2015 2:57:03 PM, ford_prefect wrote:
If we abort all babies, by the end of the century we will have eradicated crime forever

^^^
"Sooner or later, the Supreme Court of the Unites States is going to have explain how a 'child in the womb' is a person enough to be recognized as a MURDER victim under our fetal homicide laws but how they are not persons enough to qualify for any other Constitutional protections" ~ Chuz Life

http://www.debate.org...