Total Posts:106|Showing Posts:1-30|Last Page
Jump to topic:

Welfare?

Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/10/2010 12:10:30 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
Does social welfare, (by which I primarily mean when the State grants money/goods/services to those unable to work) inevitably lead to a culture of dependency?

What can be done to mitigate this?

If not social welfare, what ought to be done for those unable to support themselves?
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
FREEDO
Posts: 21,057
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/10/2010 12:12:50 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
Directing free things towards specific groups of people causes too much bureaucracy. Providing a minimum standard of living universally to all citizens is most beneficial to society.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/10/2010 12:16:08 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/10/2010 12:12:50 AM, FREEDO wrote:
Directing free things towards specific groups of people causes too much bureaucracy. Providing a minimum standard of living universally to all citizens is most beneficial to society.

What would be the minimum?
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
FREEDO
Posts: 21,057
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/10/2010 12:27:39 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/10/2010 12:16:08 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 7/10/2010 12:12:50 AM, FREEDO wrote:
Directing free things towards specific groups of people causes too much bureaucracy. Providing a minimum standard of living universally to all citizens is most beneficial to society.

What would be the minimum?

Things necessary for survival. People should be struggling to thrive, not to survive.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
Korashk
Posts: 4,597
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/10/2010 12:31:07 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/10/2010 12:27:39 AM, FREEDO wrote:
At 7/10/2010 12:16:08 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 7/10/2010 12:12:50 AM, FREEDO wrote:
Directing free things towards specific groups of people causes too much bureaucracy. Providing a minimum standard of living universally to all citizens is most beneficial to society.

What would be the minimum?

Things necessary for survival. People should be struggling to thrive, not to survive.

It really isn't hard to provide that which is necessary to survive for yourself.
When large numbers of otherwise-law abiding people break specific laws en masse, it's usually a fault that lies with the law. - Unknown
FREEDO
Posts: 21,057
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/10/2010 12:36:23 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/10/2010 12:31:07 AM, Korashk wrote:
At 7/10/2010 12:27:39 AM, FREEDO wrote:
At 7/10/2010 12:16:08 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 7/10/2010 12:12:50 AM, FREEDO wrote:
Directing free things towards specific groups of people causes too much bureaucracy. Providing a minimum standard of living universally to all citizens is most beneficial to society.

What would be the minimum?

Things necessary for survival. People should be struggling to thrive, not to survive.

It really isn't hard to provide that which is necessary to survive for yourself.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com...
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
InsertNameHere
Posts: 15,699
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/10/2010 12:37:25 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/10/2010 12:36:23 AM, FREEDO wrote:
At 7/10/2010 12:31:07 AM, Korashk wrote:
At 7/10/2010 12:27:39 AM, FREEDO wrote:
At 7/10/2010 12:16:08 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 7/10/2010 12:12:50 AM, FREEDO wrote:
Directing free things towards specific groups of people causes too much bureaucracy. Providing a minimum standard of living universally to all citizens is most beneficial to society.

What would be the minimum?

Things necessary for survival. People should be struggling to thrive, not to survive.

It really isn't hard to provide that which is necessary to survive for yourself.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com...

This.
FREEDO
Posts: 21,057
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/10/2010 12:38:08 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
But actually I do think there should be a few more things than basic survival. Just things that anyone in a modern society should expect to have like education and communication.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
Cody_Franklin
Posts: 9,483
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/10/2010 12:42:00 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/10/2010 12:12:50 AM, FREEDO wrote:
Directing free things towards specific groups of people causes too much bureaucracy. Providing a minimum standard of living universally to all citizens is most beneficial to society.

You can't just provide it out of thin air. Provision requires both a supply and an agency of provision.
I-am-a-panda
Posts: 15,380
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/10/2010 2:50:26 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
By implementing welfare payments that are subsistence level only, means testing, and reducing welfare if employed spouses, partners, etc. exist.

Also, introduce worker training, make job-seeking compulsory and implement voluntary work schemes.
Pizza. I have enormous respect for Pizza.
badger
Posts: 11,793
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/10/2010 6:44:06 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/10/2010 12:42:00 AM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
At 7/10/2010 12:12:50 AM, FREEDO wrote:
Directing free things towards specific groups of people causes too much bureaucracy. Providing a minimum standard of living universally to all citizens is most beneficial to society.

You can't just provide it out of thin air. Provision requires both a supply and an agency of provision.

lol
signature
comoncents
Posts: 5,647
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/10/2010 7:11:43 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/10/2010 12:10:30 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
Does social welfare, (by which I primarily mean when the State grants money/goods/services to those unable to work) inevitably lead to a culture of dependency?


Yes.
The real question is, does it inevitably lead to a culture of complacency?

And that answer is harder to answer.

What can be done to mitigate this?


Get rid of it.
Or
Only allow people to be on it for a short time.

If not social welfare, what ought to be done for those unable to support themselves?

Like?
tvellalott
Posts: 10,864
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/10/2010 7:37:50 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/10/2010 12:10:30 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
Does social welfare, (by which I primarily mean when the State grants money/goods/services to those unable to work) inevitably lead to a culture of dependency?

Yes, I definately think so. You end up with people with the mentality that they earned the welfare; who don't need to work and don't.

What can be done to mitigate this?

Tough question. We have a reasonably good system in Australia but it is still heavily flawed. I think more should be done to weed out people who don't WANT to work and make them useful members of society.

If not social welfare, what ought to be done for those unable to support themselves?
Soylent Green?
"Caitlyn Jenner is an incredibly brave and stunningly beautiful woman."

Muh threads
Using mafia tactics in real-life: http://www.debate.org...
6 years of DDO: http://www.debate.org...
comoncents
Posts: 5,647
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/10/2010 9:51:09 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/10/2010 12:10:30 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
If not social welfare, what ought to be done for those unable to support themselves?

What a grim prognostication.
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/11/2010 2:41:13 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/10/2010 9:51:09 PM, comoncents wrote:
At 7/10/2010 12:10:30 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
If not social welfare, what ought to be done for those unable to support themselves?

What a grim prognostication.

Well it does seem like a pertinent question.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/11/2010 7:57:40 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/10/2010 12:10:30 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
If not social welfare, what ought to be done for those unable to support themselves?
Nothing.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/11/2010 9:04:20 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
We should help the less fortunate ones by giving them opportunities to lead their own lives by working. We need a society that functions as one. There is nothing wrong with helping people who are in need. Those who have enough to pay to help those in need are, in fact, helping themselves, too. When more people get into work and more people can live standard lives, then the economy can rise and we can all have improved qualities of life.
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/11/2010 9:06:23 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/11/2010 7:57:40 AM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
At 7/10/2010 12:10:30 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
If not social welfare, what ought to be done for those unable to support themselves?
Nothing.
I would definitely like to interview you if you were ever in need of help from people who are able to help you. I would like to see what you would scream for to give food, shelter, and clothes to yourself and your children.

I hope it never happens to you or anyone else, but try to imagine being in the shoes of a less fortunate human being, and maybe you will come with positive comments instead of such nonsense like "nothing."
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/11/2010 9:14:55 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
Why in a thousand hells would I have children in such a situation? :P
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
I-am-a-panda
Posts: 15,380
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/11/2010 9:19:44 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/11/2010 9:14:55 AM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
Why in a thousand hells would I have children in such a situation? :P

Hobo love is supposed to be one of the most romantic forms of loves in the world
Pizza. I have enormous respect for Pizza.
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/11/2010 9:19:45 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/11/2010 9:14:55 AM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
Why in a thousand hells would I have children in such a situation? :P
You never know what drops from the sky the next day.
Puck
Posts: 6,457
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/11/2010 9:50:03 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/11/2010 9:19:45 AM, Mirza wrote:
At 7/11/2010 9:14:55 AM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
Why in a thousand hells would I have children in such a situation? :P
You never know what drops from the sky the next day.

Babies come from storks?
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/11/2010 9:54:24 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/11/2010 9:50:03 AM, Puck wrote:
At 7/11/2010 9:19:45 AM, Mirza wrote:
At 7/11/2010 9:14:55 AM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
Why in a thousand hells would I have children in such a situation? :P
You never know what drops from the sky the next day.

Babies come from storks?

I think he mixed up his Koran and a Xanth novel.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/11/2010 9:58:39 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
This was after mixing up a biology textbook and the Koran of course.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
vivalayeo
Posts: 142
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/11/2010 10:02:41 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
The government should not have that much control of someone's life. I don't like social welfare. I can see when it is necessary though, for people with disabilities. But Job seeker's allowance, and the dole are idiotic. I have a friend who is working 70 hour's a week at the minute, while some people sit around and get money from the government.
Cody_Franklin
Posts: 9,483
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/11/2010 11:19:26 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
Actually, our family is very poor right now because other people stole things (for which we ended up being forced to pay, for some strange reason) and wrote a lot of bad checks which wouldn't cash, for which we also ended up having to pay. Now we literally have no money for groceries, we can't pay most of our bills, and we're slowly having to sell furniture/have yard sales. We'll be selling our house soon. Even in such a "needy" situation, I abhor the thought of even being offered a welfare check.
I-am-a-panda
Posts: 15,380
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/11/2010 12:06:31 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/11/2010 11:19:26 AM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
Actually, our family is very poor right now because other people stole things (for which we ended up being forced to pay, for some strange reason) and wrote a lot of bad checks which wouldn't cash, for which we also ended up having to pay. Now we literally have no money for groceries, we can't pay most of our bills, and we're slowly having to sell furniture/have yard sales. We'll be selling our house soon. Even in such a "needy" situation, I abhor the thought of even being offered a welfare check.

For real?
Pizza. I have enormous respect for Pizza.
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/11/2010 12:13:36 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/11/2010 11:19:26 AM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
Actually, our family is very poor right now because other people stole things (for which we ended up being forced to pay, for some strange reason) and wrote a lot of bad checks which wouldn't cash, for which we also ended up having to pay. Now we literally have no money for groceries, we can't pay most of our bills, and we're slowly having to sell furniture/have yard sales. We'll be selling our house soon. Even in such a "needy" situation, I abhor the thought of even being offered a welfare check.
Welfare = help

Would you also abhor me offering you a job? That is another form of welfare. You are in need of money and I offer you a job. Just because you work for money here does not change the fact that it is welfare, or in other words, social aid. If you were about to die from starvation, would you also abhor free food? Self-destruct is better than welfare, is that what you think?

I must say that it is quite shocking that people hold nonsensical views of welfare. Helping people to stand straight and move on with their lives is nothing negative.