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Hexadecocracy

tvellalott
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7/10/2010 12:44:55 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
Ok, I've been toying with ideas for a better representative Government for some time and here is what I've come up with... Please, I invite criticism, but make it constructive...

Through a Census of population, we divide the adult population (everyone over, you guessed it, 16) up into groups of 16, based on area. This should make most people familiar with the other people in their immediate group, or give them the opportunity to become familiar with said people.
These people then vote on who should be the leader of said group. In the event of a tie, one person is removed from voting at random and another vote is taken.
These leaders form the next 16, who repeat the process.

After 3 or 4 levels of voting, depending on the number of people in the population we're talking about. (268,435,456 divided by 16 4 times for instance) we should be left with approximately 65,536 people. If there are more than that, people are randomly eliminated until we reach this number. If there are less than that, people elimated in the previous round are brought up at random.

Another two rounds of voting and 256 people are left. They form the house of representatives and each represent an area of the country.
Another vote is taken, again with the groups divided up into 16 depending on the area they represent and form the final 16. These people directly communicate with the 16 who voted them into power. These 16 vote for a leader, and he is the President.

I know it sounds like a lot of work, a simple calculation program using a database of the information created in the census could do most of it.

Feedback?
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FREEDO
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7/10/2010 12:55:20 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
You don't see the complexity causing problems?

Secondly, why do we even need a representative system?
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tvellalott
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7/10/2010 1:03:31 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
How is it any more complex then the system we have in place? More work, yes. More complex, no. If they can get Google maps working, this shouldn't be any harder.

We need representative Government because that is the only thing that is going to fly with the masses. As much as I like the idea behind collective anarchism, I know it isn't going to happen. I'm just putting this out there is all.
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PoeJoe
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7/10/2010 1:25:45 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/10/2010 1:03:31 AM, tvellalott wrote:
As much as I like the idea behind collective anarchism, I know it isn't going to happen.

...and this will?
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Ragnar_Rahl
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7/10/2010 1:34:09 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
lol@choosing between representative democracy and collectivist anarchism.
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Ragnar_Rahl
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7/10/2010 1:38:14 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
and most voters aren't going to understand your system dude, it is indeed significantly more complex than the present one. As a result it contradicts representative democracy, since no majority would ever vote to implement your system. They'd have half a mind to throw you in jail for suggesting such gobbledegook if the partial despotism of the courts in favor of the constitution didn't stop them.
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tvellalott
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7/10/2010 1:39:59 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
@Ragnar_Rahl
This isn't democracy, it's hexadecocracy! :D :D :D

@poejoe
No, probably not. :(
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tvellalott
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7/10/2010 1:41:29 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/10/2010 1:38:14 AM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
... They'd have half a mind to throw you in jail for suggesting such gobbledegook if the partial despotism of the courts in favor of the constitution didn't stop them....

lmfao
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Ragnar_Rahl
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7/10/2010 1:45:18 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/10/2010 1:39:59 AM, tvellalott wrote:
@Ragnar_Rahl
This isn't democracy, it's hexadecocracy! :D :D :D

The point is it fails to represent them. You can't represent someone by being something they don't even understand. They are, after all, nothing but their minds and their bodies. And their bodies are not hexadecimal structures.

(Incidentally, representative government is nonsensical collectivism anyway. People are individuals. Individuals are different. You can't represent them with any one governmental configuration.)
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tvellalott
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7/10/2010 1:45:46 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
Whats so complicated? Most people will only have to vote twice. Almost everyone not interested is going to be eliminated within the first two votes... People who get past that stage are going to be the ones interested in being a part of the Government anyway...
Remember the part about constructive criticism?
Don't tell me an idiot, tell me why I'm an idiot ^_-.
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Ragnar_Rahl
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7/10/2010 1:47:32 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/10/2010 1:45:46 AM, tvellalott wrote:
Whats so complicated? Most people will only have to vote twice. Almost everyone not interested is going to be eliminated within the first two votes...
And they won't understand the business of the people they are voting for. Not even as little as they do now. Clearly,they can't establish a representative by picking between
hfhhsisisf and wiipwpihrenp, as their actual choices will be little more comprehensible to them than those configurations are to you
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tvellalott
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7/10/2010 1:48:05 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/10/2010 1:45:18 AM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
At 7/10/2010 1:39:59 AM, tvellalott wrote:
@Ragnar_Rahl
This isn't democracy, it's hexadecocracy! :D :D :D

The point is it fails to represent them. You can't represent someone by being something they don't even understand. They are, after all, nothing but their minds and their bodies. And their bodies are not hexadecimal structures.



(Incidentally, representative government is nonsensical collectivism anyway. People are individuals. Individuals are different. You can't represent them with any one governmental configuration.)

With my system in place, wouldn't every individual have a chance to have his say?
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tvellalott
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7/10/2010 1:50:47 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/10/2010 1:47:32 AM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
At 7/10/2010 1:45:46 AM, tvellalott wrote:
Whats so complicated? Most people will only have to vote twice. Almost everyone not interested is going to be eliminated within the first two votes...
And they won't understand the business of the people they are voting for. Not even as little as they do now. Clearly,they can't establish a representative by picking between
hfhhsisisf and wiipwpihrenp, as their actual choices will be little more comprehensible to them than those configurations are to you

I don't think you understand. These groups of sixteen people MEET before they vote (I'm sorry if I didn't make that clear).
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Ragnar_Rahl
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7/10/2010 1:51:46 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/10/2010 1:48:05 AM, tvellalott wrote:
At 7/10/2010 1:45:18 AM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
At 7/10/2010 1:39:59 AM, tvellalott wrote:
@Ragnar_Rahl
This isn't democracy, it's hexadecocracy! :D :D :D

The point is it fails to represent them. You can't represent someone by being something they don't even understand. They are, after all, nothing but their minds and their bodies. And their bodies are not hexadecimal structures.



(Incidentally, representative government is nonsensical collectivism anyway. People are individuals. Individuals are different. You can't represent them with any one governmental configuration.)


With my system in place, wouldn't every individual have a chance to have his say?
No. 9 in 16 have a slight modicum of a say at best. The end result is, like the present system, almost certain to turn out: everyone is oppressed somewhere. Democracy and similar systems reward taking your share of pie from someone else's hide, the transaction costs tend to block attempt at freedom, since people will merely free ride on the moral acts of others.
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Ragnar_Rahl
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7/10/2010 1:53:17 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/10/2010 1:50:47 AM, tvellalott wrote:
At 7/10/2010 1:47:32 AM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
At 7/10/2010 1:45:46 AM, tvellalott wrote:
Whats so complicated? Most people will only have to vote twice. Almost everyone not interested is going to be eliminated within the first two votes...
And they won't understand the business of the people they are voting for. Not even as little as they do now. Clearly,they can't establish a representative by picking between
hfhhsisisf and wiipwpihrenp, as their actual choices will be little more comprehensible to them than those configurations are to you

I don't think you understand. These groups of sixteen people MEET before they vote (I'm sorry if I didn't make that clear).

Irrelevant. You understand every letter of the above configurations, but you do not understand the above configurations.

Here, they only understand ONE letter of such a configuration (the other ones weren't in the group). And they still don't understand the end configuration that will result from the choice of letter.
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tvellalott
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7/10/2010 2:01:55 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
I've got no idea what you're talking with this configurations hoop-lah. I've thought up a system of voting where everyone gets an equal chance to be a leader.
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Ragnar_Rahl
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7/10/2010 2:11:20 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/10/2010 2:01:55 AM, tvellalott wrote:
I've got no idea what you're talking with this configurations hoop-lah. I've thought up a system of voting where everyone gets an equal chance to be a leader.

Everyone has equal odds of being elected leader by a group of 16 people?

I highly doubt that, first of all. Secondly, thank nonexistent God that that isn't the case. A random person would, odds are, suck even worse than our current government.

Configurations of letters analogizes to understanding how the member of the 16 you elect will interact with further electees and so on and so forth. For example, if you elect Ronald Reagan into a configuration that is nearly split down the middle on abortion, but is pretty much set one way or another on economics, the major effect of your election choice is oppressive to women's use of their wombs.

If you elect him into a configuration where there's an overwhelming majority establishing some position on abortions but a tight balance on economics somewhere in the middle of the Keynesian area of the spectrum, it's liberating to busiessmen and businesswomen's use of their wallets as he presses them further toward capitalism than they would otherwise be-- and, indeed, consequently and rather perversely from a pro-life perspective, helps people be more free to earn money and purchase abortions!

Clearly it's important to understand the configuration you'll be electing someone into in any system other than "Elect a dictator every x years." And in your system even more so than ours, because the configurations are multi-layered.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
tvellalott
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7/10/2010 3:50:22 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
I still don't get what your problem with my system is.
People get together with 15 others and decide who among them will be the leader. This is done by anonymous vote. Each person can get up and speak about what issues they stand for, blah blah blah. If there is a tie, which is possible with any number of people, one person is removed at random and another vote is taken. I don't see the problem.
If America for instance used this system, a total of around 18 million votes in groups of 16 would be taken. Anyone can become leader, but it is hardly random.
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I-am-a-panda
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7/10/2010 3:56:07 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
Also, I'm in a group of 16. Adam Sandler is in my group. Immediately everyone votes Adam Sandler, and will continue to vote him as he is well known. Boom he is in the House of Representatives.

Also, what about people who don't want to take part in your Hexadecocracy.
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tvellalott
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7/10/2010 4:10:48 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/10/2010 3:56:07 AM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
Also, I'm in a group of 16. Adam Sandler is in my group. Immediately everyone votes Adam Sandler, and will continue to vote him as he is well known. Boom he is in the House of Representatives.

Also, what about people who don't want to take part in your Hexadecocracy.

Eliminating people at random is stupid.


At last, some constructive criticism.
Ok, let me think...

1) Because the system works by area, you would only be up against people who were your neighbours. If you live next to Adam Sandler, thats unfortunate. However, you're likely to know him and be better able to persuade your other neighbours to vote against him.

2) Anyone who doesn't want to be involved simply opts out in the first round of voting. If you are in a group of 16 and no-one wants to be involved, you simply elect a leader at random, they go to the next meeting and opt out.

3) Eliminating people at random is fair. It only happens in the event of a tie. I retract the bit about eliminating people to reach 65,536. That is stupid. Bear in mind this is a work in progress.
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I-am-a-panda
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7/10/2010 4:13:36 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/10/2010 4:10:48 AM, tvellalott wrote:

At last, some constructive criticism.
Ok, let me think...

1) Because the system works by area, you would only be up against people who were your neighbours. If you live next to Adam Sandler, thats unfortunate. However, you're likely to know him and be better able to persuade your other neighbours to vote against him.

Unless he's in a swanky mansion aloof from us, but is voted through for celebrity status.


2) Anyone who doesn't want to be involved simply opts out in the first round of voting. If you are in a group of 16 and no-one wants to be involved, you simply elect a leader at random, they go to the next meeting and opt out.

Lol, so you're forcing someone to stand for election?


3) Eliminating people at random is fair. It only happens in the event of a tie. I retract the bit about eliminating people to reach 65,536. That is stupid. Bear in mind this is a work in progress.

Wait, so if 10 people are eliminated ,and these are 10 smart politicians, then lol. Eliminate based on the lowest number of votes.
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tvellalott
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7/10/2010 4:23:59 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/10/2010 4:13:36 AM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
At 7/10/2010 4:10:48 AM, tvellalott wrote:

At last, some constructive criticism.
Ok, let me think...

1) Because the system works by area, you would only be up against people who were your neighbours. If you live next to Adam Sandler, thats unfortunate. However, you're likely to know him and be better able to persuade your other neighbours to vote against him.

Unless he's in a swanky mansion aloof from us, but is voted through for celebrity status.


2) Anyone who doesn't want to be involved simply opts out in the first round of voting. If you are in a group of 16 and no-one wants to be involved, you simply elect a leader at random, they go to the next meeting and opt out.

Lol, so you're forcing someone to stand for election?


3) Eliminating people at random is fair. It only happens in the event of a tie. I retract the bit about eliminating people to reach 65,536. That is stupid. Bear in mind this is a work in progress.

Wait, so if 10 people are eliminated ,and these are 10 smart politicians, then lol. Eliminate based on the lowest number of votes.

</end constructive criticism>

Swanky mansion are usually in suburbs of swanky mansions. Celebrities live near *shock horror* other celebrities!

No one is forced to stand for election. If you don't want to be voted for you opt out. If you're entire 16 opt out, instead of sending someone onto the next 16, they are all simply taken out of the process. Simple.

If out of 16, 10 are smart politicians and they are still unable to vote a leader and are eliminated at random, they weren't that smart, WERE THEY! :D
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I-am-a-panda
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7/10/2010 4:40:57 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/10/2010 4:23:59 AM, tvellalott wrote:
At 7/10/2010 4:13:36 AM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
At 7/10/2010 4:10:48 AM, tvellalott wrote:

At last, some constructive criticism.
Ok, let me think...

1) Because the system works by area, you would only be up against people who were your neighbours. If you live next to Adam Sandler, thats unfortunate. However, you're likely to know him and be better able to persuade your other neighbours to vote against him.

Unless he's in a swanky mansion aloof from us, but is voted through for celebrity status.


2) Anyone who doesn't want to be involved simply opts out in the first round of voting. If you are in a group of 16 and no-one wants to be involved, you simply elect a leader at random, they go to the next meeting and opt out.

Lol, so you're forcing someone to stand for election?


3) Eliminating people at random is fair. It only happens in the event of a tie. I retract the bit about eliminating people to reach 65,536. That is stupid. Bear in mind this is a work in progress.

Wait, so if 10 people are eliminated ,and these are 10 smart politicians, then lol. Eliminate based on the lowest number of votes.

</end constructive criticism>

Swanky mansion are usually in suburbs of swanky mansions. Celebrities live near *shock horror* other celebrities!

No one is forced to stand for election. If you don't want to be voted for you opt out. If you're entire 16 opt out, instead of sending someone onto the next 16, they are all simply taken out of the process. Simple.

If out of 16, 10 are smart politicians and they are still unable to vote a leader and are eliminated at random, they weren't that smart, WERE THEY! :D

Well, you do realise this process could easily take a year to do?
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tvellalott
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7/10/2010 5:05:16 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
I don't know about that. A clever computer program could do basically all the work.
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innomen
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7/10/2010 8:35:31 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
I agree with Panda that the random elimination thing is a problem.

There is something not far from this. In the town that i grew up in we had representative town meeting. The town of 28K are divided into 9 precincts, and within those precincts a direct number correlating to the number in that precinct are elected in those neighborhoods to serve in Town meeting (I served two terms). Of the 200+ town reps 16 were elected to the executive committee (i served one term). Traditionally the most politically popular person then ends up as our state rep. Of the state reps, typically the better end up going to Washington to represent the district. - It's not a perfect analogy to your proposal, and i explained it fairly loosely, but essentially it accomplishes what i think you are looking for...well not really, because the problems that we have aren't necessarily in our election process.
Ragnar_Rahl
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7/10/2010 8:38:55 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
How exactly does a computer program figure out who someone wants to vote for?
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tvellalott
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7/10/2010 9:20:45 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/10/2010 8:38:55 AM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
How exactly does a computer program figure out who someone wants to vote for?

It doesn't. It does every-frikkin-thing else.
I'm tired, just wrote a long rant about Islam and Western Media. I'll come back tommorow. ^_-
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7/10/2010 9:48:11 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/10/2010 9:20:45 AM, tvellalott wrote:
At 7/10/2010 8:38:55 AM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
How exactly does a computer program figure out who someone wants to vote for?

It doesn't. It does every-frikkin-thing else.
Yeah. It's the combined processes of that thing that would take-- well, to be honest, a year is a conservative estimate :P
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tvellalott
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7/10/2010 9:52:03 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/10/2010 9:48:11 AM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
At 7/10/2010 9:20:45 AM, tvellalott wrote:
At 7/10/2010 8:38:55 AM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
How exactly does a computer program figure out who someone wants to vote for?

It doesn't. It does every-frikkin-thing else.
Yeah. It's the combined processes of that thing that would take-- well, to be honest, a year is a conservative estimate :P

You are a heartless bastard. It took me a whole twenty minutes to come up with this. WHY CAN'T YOU JUST ACCEPT IT IMMEDIATELY!!!
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