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Employment question

ben2974
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2/25/2015 9:55:29 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
An employer is trying to hire one new person. He gets an application from an observant Jew that says he cannot work Saturdays. The employee would like the applicants to be able to work Saturdays because he likes having employees with flexible schedules. Should this applicant be considered less qualified because of religious obligation?
thett3
Posts: 14,378
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2/25/2015 9:59:46 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Yes. The employer wants people to work Saturday's, and the applicant isn't going to do so. There's nothing wrong with the applicant refusing to work on Saturday's, just like there's nothing wrong with the employer rejecting him because of his refusal
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: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
ben2974
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2/25/2015 10:02:26 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/25/2015 9:59:46 PM, thett3 wrote:
Yes. The employer wants people to work Saturday's, and the applicant isn't going to do so. There's nothing wrong with the applicant refusing to work on Saturday's, just like there's nothing wrong with the employer rejecting him because of his refusal

Agreed
Ore_Ele
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2/25/2015 10:04:28 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/25/2015 9:55:29 PM, ben2974 wrote:
An employer is trying to hire one new person. He gets an application from an observant Jew that says he cannot work Saturdays. The employee would like the applicants to be able to work Saturdays because he likes having employees with flexible schedules. Should this applicant be considered less qualified because of religious obligation?

Yes. He fits the needs of the position less well than someone else (assuming all skills and other traits are equal).
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
ben2974
Posts: 767
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2/25/2015 10:04:34 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/25/2015 9:59:46 PM, thett3 wrote:
Yes. The employer wants people to work Saturday's, and the applicant isn't going to do so. There's nothing wrong with the applicant refusing to work on Saturday's, just like there's nothing wrong with the employer rejecting him because of his refusal

What about this?
http://www.nytimes.com...
thett3
Posts: 14,378
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2/25/2015 10:12:11 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/25/2015 10:04:34 PM, ben2974 wrote:
At 2/25/2015 9:59:46 PM, thett3 wrote:
Yes. The employer wants people to work Saturday's, and the applicant isn't going to do so. There's nothing wrong with the applicant refusing to work on Saturday's, just like there's nothing wrong with the employer rejecting him because of his refusal


What about this?
http://www.nytimes.com...

It seems a little different because I don't think upsetting the "classic East Coast collegiate style" interferes with a companies bottom line nearly as much as someone refusing to work on a day when the employer needs employees.

Idk. I'm not a private property absolutist. Like everything, we're balancing rights here. The right of the business owner to refuse to hire, vs the right of employee to not suffer due to the fact that she wears a religious headscarf. The Civil Rights Act prohibited businesses from discriminating based on color, and given the massive amount of discrimination that went on constantly and the fact that there's not a legitimate reason to refuse service to people of color other than to be a bigoted assshole, I'd say the right of the oppressed outweighed in that case. It probably does in this too.

At the same time, a part of me really does believe in the argument that private property is private property, period, and you can't force people to perform trade when they don't want to.
DDO Vice President

#StandwithBossy

#UnbanTheMadman

#BetOnThett

"Don't quote me, ever." -Max

"My name is max. I'm not a big fan of slacks"- Max rapping

"Walmart should have the opportunity to bribe a politician to it's agenda" -Max

"Thett, you're really good at convincing people you're a decent person"-tulle

"You fit the character of Regina George quite nicely"- Sam

: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
FaustianJustice
Posts: 6,239
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2/25/2015 10:14:23 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/25/2015 10:04:34 PM, ben2974 wrote:
At 2/25/2015 9:59:46 PM, thett3 wrote:
Yes. The employer wants people to work Saturday's, and the applicant isn't going to do so. There's nothing wrong with the applicant refusing to work on Saturday's, just like there's nothing wrong with the employer rejecting him because of his refusal


What about this?
http://www.nytimes.com...

I think the company, given its retail presence, should be able to inform applicants (and applicants should assume) that mainstream styles and dress are the dress code for a clothing store. It would seem counter intuitive that styles the clothing store -isn't- marketing get 'advertised' on its employees.
Here we have an advocate for Islamic arranged marriages demonstrating that children can consent to sex.
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ben2974
Posts: 767
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2/25/2015 10:24:49 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/25/2015 10:14:23 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 2/25/2015 10:04:34 PM, ben2974 wrote:
At 2/25/2015 9:59:46 PM, thett3 wrote:
Yes. The employer wants people to work Saturday's, and the applicant isn't going to do so. There's nothing wrong with the applicant refusing to work on Saturday's, just like there's nothing wrong with the employer rejecting him because of his refusal


What about this?
http://www.nytimes.com...

I think the company, given its retail presence, should be able to inform applicants (and applicants should assume) that mainstream styles and dress are the dress code for a clothing store. It would seem counter intuitive that styles the clothing store -isn't- marketing get 'advertised' on its employees.

Agreed. And it shouldn't be recognized as religious discrimination. The employer has the right to define what the company is and how it operates. If you cannot accept it, then the employee should not have to accept you.

But, here's a hypothetical taking the example to an extreme:
What if a store CEO/manager wishes to create a retail clothing store or create products for only, say, blacks. To commit to the creed, he hires only blacks. Would this be okay, lol?
FaustianJustice
Posts: 6,239
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2/25/2015 10:28:54 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/25/2015 10:24:49 PM, ben2974 wrote:
At 2/25/2015 10:14:23 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 2/25/2015 10:04:34 PM, ben2974 wrote:
At 2/25/2015 9:59:46 PM, thett3 wrote:
Yes. The employer wants people to work Saturday's, and the applicant isn't going to do so. There's nothing wrong with the applicant refusing to work on Saturday's, just like there's nothing wrong with the employer rejecting him because of his refusal


What about this?
http://www.nytimes.com...

I think the company, given its retail presence, should be able to inform applicants (and applicants should assume) that mainstream styles and dress are the dress code for a clothing store. It would seem counter intuitive that styles the clothing store -isn't- marketing get 'advertised' on its employees.

Agreed. And it shouldn't be recognized as religious discrimination. The employer has the right to define what the company is and how it operates. If you cannot accept it, then the employee should not have to accept you.


But, here's a hypothetical taking the example to an extreme:
What if a store CEO/manager wishes to create a retail clothing store or create products for only, say, blacks. To commit to the creed, he hires only blacks. Would this be okay, lol?

Lets ask Hooters.
Here we have an advocate for Islamic arranged marriages demonstrating that children can consent to sex.
http://www.debate.org...
FaustianJustice
Posts: 6,239
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2/25/2015 10:32:12 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/25/2015 10:24:49 PM, ben2974 wrote:
At 2/25/2015 10:14:23 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 2/25/2015 10:04:34 PM, ben2974 wrote:
At 2/25/2015 9:59:46 PM, thett3 wrote:
Yes. The employer wants people to work Saturday's, and the applicant isn't going to do so. There's nothing wrong with the applicant refusing to work on Saturday's, just like there's nothing wrong with the employer rejecting him because of his refusal


What about this?
http://www.nytimes.com...

I think the company, given its retail presence, should be able to inform applicants (and applicants should assume) that mainstream styles and dress are the dress code for a clothing store. It would seem counter intuitive that styles the clothing store -isn't- marketing get 'advertised' on its employees.

Agreed. And it shouldn't be recognized as religious discrimination. The employer has the right to define what the company is and how it operates. If you cannot accept it, then the employee should not have to accept you.


But, here's a hypothetical taking the example to an extreme:
What if a store CEO/manager wishes to create a retail clothing store or create products for only, say, blacks. To commit to the creed, he hires only blacks. Would this be okay, lol?

I think my previous tongue in cheek didn't hit the mark, my mistake.

Yeah, I really can't think of a reason why it wouldn't be. We have clothing lines -just- for women, and generally, I find -just- women behind the counter. I would like to think, though, that the CEO/manager has done due diligence, study, etc, and can demonstrate to those unhappy with the business model that indeed its a specific market that is trying to be tapped.
Here we have an advocate for Islamic arranged marriages demonstrating that children can consent to sex.
http://www.debate.org...
ben2974
Posts: 767
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2/25/2015 10:38:02 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/25/2015 10:32:12 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 2/25/2015 10:24:49 PM, ben2974 wrote:
At 2/25/2015 10:14:23 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 2/25/2015 10:04:34 PM, ben2974 wrote:
At 2/25/2015 9:59:46 PM, thett3 wrote:
Yes. The employer wants people to work Saturday's, and the applicant isn't going to do so. There's nothing wrong with the applicant refusing to work on Saturday's, just like there's nothing wrong with the employer rejecting him because of his refusal


What about this?
http://www.nytimes.com...

I think the company, given its retail presence, should be able to inform applicants (and applicants should assume) that mainstream styles and dress are the dress code for a clothing store. It would seem counter intuitive that styles the clothing store -isn't- marketing get 'advertised' on its employees.

Agreed. And it shouldn't be recognized as religious discrimination. The employer has the right to define what the company is and how it operates. If you cannot accept it, then the employee should not have to accept you.


But, here's a hypothetical taking the example to an extreme:
What if a store CEO/manager wishes to create a retail clothing store or create products for only, say, blacks. To commit to the creed, he hires only blacks. Would this be okay, lol?

I think my previous tongue in cheek didn't hit the mark, my mistake.

Yeah, I really can't think of a reason why it wouldn't be. We have clothing lines -just- for women, and generally, I find -just- women behind the counter. I would like to think, though, that the CEO/manager has done due diligence, study, etc, and can demonstrate to those unhappy with the business model that indeed its a specific market that is trying to be tapped.

Fair enough heh. Although that could get a little complicated when it comes to the LGBT community.
FaustianJustice
Posts: 6,239
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2/25/2015 10:48:50 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/25/2015 10:38:02 PM, ben2974 wrote:
At 2/25/2015 10:32:12 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 2/25/2015 10:24:49 PM, ben2974 wrote:
At 2/25/2015 10:14:23 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 2/25/2015 10:04:34 PM, ben2974 wrote:
At 2/25/2015 9:59:46 PM, thett3 wrote:
Yes. The employer wants people to work Saturday's, and the applicant isn't going to do so. There's nothing wrong with the applicant refusing to work on Saturday's, just like there's nothing wrong with the employer rejecting him because of his refusal


What about this?
http://www.nytimes.com...

I think the company, given its retail presence, should be able to inform applicants (and applicants should assume) that mainstream styles and dress are the dress code for a clothing store. It would seem counter intuitive that styles the clothing store -isn't- marketing get 'advertised' on its employees.

Agreed. And it shouldn't be recognized as religious discrimination. The employer has the right to define what the company is and how it operates. If you cannot accept it, then the employee should not have to accept you.


But, here's a hypothetical taking the example to an extreme:
What if a store CEO/manager wishes to create a retail clothing store or create products for only, say, blacks. To commit to the creed, he hires only blacks. Would this be okay, lol?

I think my previous tongue in cheek didn't hit the mark, my mistake.

Yeah, I really can't think of a reason why it wouldn't be. We have clothing lines -just- for women, and generally, I find -just- women behind the counter. I would like to think, though, that the CEO/manager has done due diligence, study, etc, and can demonstrate to those unhappy with the business model that indeed its a specific market that is trying to be tapped.

Fair enough heh. Although that could get a little complicated when it comes to the LGBT community.

I think it might for those whose biological gender vs assumed gender are subject to discrepancy. I for one would have no problem taking advice from a lesbian working a Burlington's Coat Factory, as that particular fashion or style is something the person behind the counter represents and uses. I wonder, however, how many females might take advice from a transgendered male to female (currently in transition) working at a Victoria's Secret. The business at some point does get to say "I need some one whom is by and large representative and inspires product confidence to our customers". The general business model is that a certain way works, no amount of perceived discrimination can alter that.
Here we have an advocate for Islamic arranged marriages demonstrating that children can consent to sex.
http://www.debate.org...
ben2974
Posts: 767
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2/25/2015 10:53:14 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/25/2015 10:48:50 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 2/25/2015 10:38:02 PM, ben2974 wrote:
At 2/25/2015 10:32:12 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 2/25/2015 10:24:49 PM, ben2974 wrote:
At 2/25/2015 10:14:23 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 2/25/2015 10:04:34 PM, ben2974 wrote:
At 2/25/2015 9:59:46 PM, thett3 wrote:
Yes. The employer wants people to work Saturday's, and the applicant isn't going to do so. There's nothing wrong with the applicant refusing to work on Saturday's, just like there's nothing wrong with the employer rejecting him because of his refusal


What about this?
http://www.nytimes.com...

I think the company, given its retail presence, should be able to inform applicants (and applicants should assume) that mainstream styles and dress are the dress code for a clothing store. It would seem counter intuitive that styles the clothing store -isn't- marketing get 'advertised' on its employees.

Agreed. And it shouldn't be recognized as religious discrimination. The employer has the right to define what the company is and how it operates. If you cannot accept it, then the employee should not have to accept you.


But, here's a hypothetical taking the example to an extreme:
What if a store CEO/manager wishes to create a retail clothing store or create products for only, say, blacks. To commit to the creed, he hires only blacks. Would this be okay, lol?

I think my previous tongue in cheek didn't hit the mark, my mistake.

Yeah, I really can't think of a reason why it wouldn't be. We have clothing lines -just- for women, and generally, I find -just- women behind the counter. I would like to think, though, that the CEO/manager has done due diligence, study, etc, and can demonstrate to those unhappy with the business model that indeed its a specific market that is trying to be tapped.

Fair enough heh. Although that could get a little complicated when it comes to the LGBT community.

I think it might for those whose biological gender vs assumed gender are subject to discrepancy. I for one would have no problem taking advice from a lesbian working a Burlington's Coat Factory, as that particular fashion or style is something the person behind the counter represents and uses. I wonder, however, how many females might take advice from a transgendered male to female (currently in transition) working at a Victoria's Secret. The business at some point does get to say "I need some one whom is by and large representative and inspires product confidence to our customers". The general business model is that a certain way works, no amount of perceived discrimination can alter that.

Nice response. I was testing the waters with this apparently contentious issue. I'm of the same understanding as you.
darkkermit
Posts: 11,204
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2/26/2015 1:59:29 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
The law states that an employer must provide reasonable accomadations for religion. But what constitues reasonable? Nobody really knows.
Open borders debate:
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Greyparrot
Posts: 14,325
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2/26/2015 3:49:30 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/25/2015 10:12:11 PM, thett3 wrote:
At the same time, a part of me really does believe in the argument that private property is private property, period, and you can't force people to perform trade when they don't want to.

If you really believe this, you should be outraged at the excessive authority of the Commerce Clause.

It's no longer a means to enforce freedom of contracts by eliminating state tariffs as originally intended; now it penalizes people for NOT entering into contracts. This is a huge difference when discussing the freedom between two consenting people to contract and trade.
Khaos_Mage
Posts: 23,214
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2/26/2015 8:27:50 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/25/2015 9:55:29 PM, ben2974 wrote:
An employer is trying to hire one new person. He gets an application from an observant Jew that says he cannot work Saturdays. The employee would like the applicants to be able to work Saturdays because he likes having employees with flexible schedules. Should this applicant be considered less qualified because of religious obligation?

Yes, they are less qualified.
However, to my understanding, you, as an employer, are legally not allowed to deny this applicant a job based on this factor.
It may depend on how many employees you have, though.
My work here is, finally, done.
Khaos_Mage
Posts: 23,214
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2/26/2015 9:09:06 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/25/2015 10:24:49 PM, ben2974 wrote:
At 2/25/2015 10:14:23 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 2/25/2015 10:04:34 PM, ben2974 wrote:
At 2/25/2015 9:59:46 PM, thett3 wrote:
Yes. The employer wants people to work Saturday's, and the applicant isn't going to do so. There's nothing wrong with the applicant refusing to work on Saturday's, just like there's nothing wrong with the employer rejecting him because of his refusal


What about this?
http://www.nytimes.com...

I think the company, given its retail presence, should be able to inform applicants (and applicants should assume) that mainstream styles and dress are the dress code for a clothing store. It would seem counter intuitive that styles the clothing store -isn't- marketing get 'advertised' on its employees.

Agreed. And it shouldn't be recognized as religious discrimination. The employer has the right to define what the company is and how it operates. If you cannot accept it, then the employee should not have to accept you.


But, here's a hypothetical taking the example to an extreme:
What if a store CEO/manager wishes to create a retail clothing store or create products for only, say, blacks. To commit to the creed, he hires only blacks. Would this be okay, lol?

Okay or legal?
It should be legal to do so, although, in most cases, it would likely be not okay, and people can boycott if they choose to.
My work here is, finally, done.
thett3
Posts: 14,378
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2/26/2015 10:22:27 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/26/2015 3:49:30 AM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 2/25/2015 10:12:11 PM, thett3 wrote:
At the same time, a part of me really does believe in the argument that private property is private property, period, and you can't force people to perform trade when they don't want to.

If you really believe this, you should be outraged at the excessive authority of the Commerce Clause.

It's no longer a means to enforce freedom of contracts by eliminating state tariffs as originally intended; now it penalizes people for NOT entering into contracts. This is a huge difference when discussing the freedom between two consenting people to contract and trade.

I'm definitely concerned by it. The idea that it allows the state to penalize people for *not* engaging in commerce is just stupid.
DDO Vice President

#StandwithBossy

#UnbanTheMadman

#BetOnThett

"Don't quote me, ever." -Max

"My name is max. I'm not a big fan of slacks"- Max rapping

"Walmart should have the opportunity to bribe a politician to it's agenda" -Max

"Thett, you're really good at convincing people you're a decent person"-tulle

"You fit the character of Regina George quite nicely"- Sam

: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
wsmunit7
Posts: 1,318
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2/26/2015 10:38:13 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/25/2015 10:04:34 PM, ben2974 wrote:
At 2/25/2015 9:59:46 PM, thett3 wrote:
Yes. The employer wants people to work Saturday's, and the applicant isn't going to do so. There's nothing wrong with the applicant refusing to work on Saturday's, just like there's nothing wrong with the employer rejecting him because of his refusal


What about this?
http://www.nytimes.com...

Does the way they dress interfere with performing the duties of the job or present safety concerns? If not, what's the problem?