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The Homophobic Right Back to Their Ways

briantheliberal
Posts: 722
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2/27/2015 8:15:22 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Once again, the right is proving to the rest of the country how bigoted, backwards and manipulative they really are. As most people probably already know, I am no fan of social conservatism (or even fiscal conservatism), and every day it is I am enlightened as to why I lean so far left in my views.

One of the biggest political battles in the United States, is over the issue of gay rights. Just recently, after digging around in the news I came across an article revealing, yet another, sneaky right wing strategy. Now that they have lost the same-sex marriage fight, Conservative lawmakers and religious fundamentalists are now passing laws prohibiting the protection of LGBT individuals from discrimination in Arkansas, and are now attempting to spread similar laws across the country. But wait, there is more it...

Not only are these laws giving any and everyone the ability to discriminate against LGBT individuals for whatever reason without consequence, now EVERYONE, even heterosexuals, who "appear gay" are now at risk. Yes, if someone even suspects you of either being gay or lesbian, or not conforming to "non-tradition" gender roles, you are at risk of losing your job, being evicted from your apartment, denied public service, and even kicked out of school. And whoever discriminated against you is now legally allowed to do so because they are protected by law, in Arkansas at least.

A woman loses her home for wearing pants. LEGAL.
A man gets fired from his job for wearing a pink shirt. LEGAL.

It also affects children.

A boy is denied entry from public school because he doesn't like football. LEGAL.
A girl is denied entry from public school because she prefers math and science to arts and crafts. LEGAL.

http://www.washingtonpost.com...
http://thinkprogress.org...
http://www.arktimes.com...

Side note, Most states already allow discrimination on basis of sexual orientation and gender expression. In those states, some communities have filled in that civil rights loophole by passing more inclusive non-discrimination laws at a local level. But now, anti-gay right-wingers have realized that they can pass state laws that make it illegal for those communities to add protections for "new groups" of people. Once again, history is repeating itself and they are on the wrong side of it.

Thoughts? Questions? Comments and Concerns?
16kadams
Posts: 10,497
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2/27/2015 9:18:39 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
I am a guy and don't like football... and I am not gay...
https://www.youtube.com...
https://rekonomics.wordpress.com...
"A trend is a trend, but the question is, will it bend? Will it alter its course through some unforeseen force and come to a premature end?" -- Alec Cairncross
briantheliberal
Posts: 722
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2/27/2015 9:35:30 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/27/2015 9:18:39 PM, 16kadams wrote:
I am a guy and don't like football... and I am not gay...

According to this law, if you lived in Arkansas someone can discriminate against you because you don't fit in their perception of "traditional gender roles" and they can get away with it, even if you aren't gay.
16kadams
Posts: 10,497
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2/27/2015 10:08:48 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/27/2015 9:35:30 PM, briantheliberal wrote:
At 2/27/2015 9:18:39 PM, 16kadams wrote:
I am a guy and don't like football... and I am not gay...

According to this law, if you lived in Arkansas someone can discriminate against you because you don't fit in their perception of "traditional gender roles" and they can get away with it, even if you aren't gay.
https://www.youtube.com...
https://www.youtube.com...
https://rekonomics.wordpress.com...
"A trend is a trend, but the question is, will it bend? Will it alter its course through some unforeseen force and come to a premature end?" -- Alec Cairncross
briantheliberal
Posts: 722
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2/27/2015 10:43:42 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/27/2015 10:08:48 PM, 16kadams wrote:
At 2/27/2015 9:35:30 PM, briantheliberal wrote:
At 2/27/2015 9:18:39 PM, 16kadams wrote:
I am a guy and don't like football... and I am not gay...

According to this law, if you lived in Arkansas someone can discriminate against you because you don't fit in their perception of "traditional gender roles" and they can get away with it, even if you aren't gay.
https://www.youtube.com...

?
GamrDeb8rBbrH8r
Posts: 341
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2/27/2015 10:50:56 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/27/2015 8:15:22 PM, briantheliberal wrote:
Once again, the right is proving to the rest of the country how bigoted, backwards and manipulative they really are. As most people probably already know, I am no fan of social conservatism (or even fiscal conservatism), and every day it is I am enlightened as to why I lean so far left in my views.

One of the biggest political battles in the United States, is over the issue of gay rights. Just recently, after digging around in the news I came across an article revealing, yet another, sneaky right wing strategy. Now that they have lost the same-sex marriage fight, Conservative lawmakers and religious fundamentalists are now passing laws prohibiting the protection of LGBT individuals from discrimination in Arkansas, and are now attempting to spread similar laws across the country. But wait, there is more it...

Not only are these laws giving any and everyone the ability to discriminate against LGBT individuals for whatever reason without consequence, now EVERYONE, even heterosexuals, who "appear gay" are now at risk. Yes, if someone even suspects you of either being gay or lesbian, or not conforming to "non-tradition" gender roles, you are at risk of losing your job, being evicted from your apartment, denied public service, and even kicked out of school. And whoever discriminated against you is now legally allowed to do so because they are protected by law, in Arkansas at least.

A woman loses her home for wearing pants. LEGAL.
A man gets fired from his job for wearing a pink shirt. LEGAL.

It also affects children.

A boy is denied entry from public school because he doesn't like football. LEGAL.
A girl is denied entry from public school because she prefers math and science to arts and crafts. LEGAL.

*gasp* YOURE KIDDING

http://www.washingtonpost.com...
http://thinkprogress.org...
http://www.arktimes.com...

Side note, Most states already allow discrimination on basis of sexual orientation and gender expression. In those states, some communities have filled in that civil rights loophole by passing more inclusive non-discrimination laws at a local level. But now, anti-gay right-wingers have realized that they can pass state laws that make it illegal for those communities to add protections for "new groups" of people. Once again, history is repeating itself and they are on the wrong side of it.

Thoughts? Questions? Comments and Concerns?
"There's no diversity because we're burning in the melting pot."

-Immortal Technique

Rap battle VS Truth_Seeker: http://www.debate.org...
wsmunit7
Posts: 1,318
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2/27/2015 10:55:22 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/27/2015 9:18:39 PM, 16kadams wrote:
I am a guy and don't like football... and I am not gay...

Uuhhhhhhh??????? So????? Is there a law that guys have to like football?
16kadams
Posts: 10,497
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2/27/2015 10:56:30 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/27/2015 10:55:22 PM, wsmunit7 wrote:
At 2/27/2015 9:18:39 PM, 16kadams wrote:
I am a guy and don't like football... and I am not gay...

Uuhhhhhhh??????? So????? Is there a law that guys have to like football?

read the OP
https://www.youtube.com...
https://rekonomics.wordpress.com...
"A trend is a trend, but the question is, will it bend? Will it alter its course through some unforeseen force and come to a premature end?" -- Alec Cairncross
briantheliberal
Posts: 722
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2/27/2015 10:57:28 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/27/2015 10:50:56 PM, GamrDeb8rBbrH8r wrote:
At 2/27/2015 8:15:22 PM, briantheliberal wrote:
Once again, the right is proving to the rest of the country how bigoted, backwards and manipulative they really are. As most people probably already know, I am no fan of social conservatism (or even fiscal conservatism), and every day it is I am enlightened as to why I lean so far left in my views.

One of the biggest political battles in the United States, is over the issue of gay rights. Just recently, after digging around in the news I came across an article revealing, yet another, sneaky right wing strategy. Now that they have lost the same-sex marriage fight, Conservative lawmakers and religious fundamentalists are now passing laws prohibiting the protection of LGBT individuals from discrimination in Arkansas, and are now attempting to spread similar laws across the country. But wait, there is more it...

Not only are these laws giving any and everyone the ability to discriminate against LGBT individuals for whatever reason without consequence, now EVERYONE, even heterosexuals, who "appear gay" are now at risk. Yes, if someone even suspects you of either being gay or lesbian, or not conforming to "non-tradition" gender roles, you are at risk of losing your job, being evicted from your apartment, denied public service, and even kicked out of school. And whoever discriminated against you is now legally allowed to do so because they are protected by law, in Arkansas at least.

A woman loses her home for wearing pants. LEGAL.
A man gets fired from his job for wearing a pink shirt. LEGAL.

It also affects children.

A boy is denied entry from public school because he doesn't like football. LEGAL.
A girl is denied entry from public school because she prefers math and science to arts and crafts. LEGAL.

*gasp* YOURE KIDDING

http://www.washingtonpost.com...
http://thinkprogress.org...
http://www.arktimes.com...

Side note, Most states already allow discrimination on basis of sexual orientation and gender expression. In those states, some communities have filled in that civil rights loophole by passing more inclusive non-discrimination laws at a local level. But now, anti-gay right-wingers have realized that they can pass state laws that make it illegal for those communities to add protections for "new groups" of people. Once again, history is repeating itself and they are on the wrong side of it.

Thoughts? Questions? Comments and Concerns?

I don't know if you're being sarcastic or not, but no I am not kidding.
GamrDeb8rBbrH8r
Posts: 341
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2/27/2015 11:06:53 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/27/2015 10:57:28 PM, briantheliberal wrote:
At 2/27/2015 10:50:56 PM, GamrDeb8rBbrH8r wrote:
At 2/27/2015 8:15:22 PM, briantheliberal wrote:
Once again, the right is proving to the rest of the country how bigoted, backwards and manipulative they really are. As most people probably already know, I am no fan of social conservatism (or even fiscal conservatism), and every day it is I am enlightened as to why I lean so far left in my views.

One of the biggest political battles in the United States, is over the issue of gay rights. Just recently, after digging around in the news I came across an article revealing, yet another, sneaky right wing strategy. Now that they have lost the same-sex marriage fight, Conservative lawmakers and religious fundamentalists are now passing laws prohibiting the protection of LGBT individuals from discrimination in Arkansas, and are now attempting to spread similar laws across the country. But wait, there is more it...

Not only are these laws giving any and everyone the ability to discriminate against LGBT individuals for whatever reason without consequence, now EVERYONE, even heterosexuals, who "appear gay" are now at risk. Yes, if someone even suspects you of either being gay or lesbian, or not conforming to "non-tradition" gender roles, you are at risk of losing your job, being evicted from your apartment, denied public service, and even kicked out of school. And whoever discriminated against you is now legally allowed to do so because they are protected by law, in Arkansas at least.

A woman loses her home for wearing pants. LEGAL.
A man gets fired from his job for wearing a pink shirt. LEGAL.

It also affects children.

A boy is denied entry from public school because he doesn't like football. LEGAL.
A girl is denied entry from public school because she prefers math and science to arts and crafts. LEGAL.

*gasp* YOURE KIDDING

http://www.washingtonpost.com...
http://thinkprogress.org...
http://www.arktimes.com...

Side note, Most states already allow discrimination on basis of sexual orientation and gender expression. In those states, some communities have filled in that civil rights loophole by passing more inclusive non-discrimination laws at a local level. But now, anti-gay right-wingers have realized that they can pass state laws that make it illegal for those communities to add protections for "new groups" of people. Once again, history is repeating itself and they are on the wrong side of it.

Thoughts? Questions? Comments and Concerns?

I don't know if you're being sarcastic or not, but no I am not kidding.

No i am not being sarcastic
"There's no diversity because we're burning in the melting pot."

-Immortal Technique

Rap battle VS Truth_Seeker: http://www.debate.org...
wsmunit7
Posts: 1,318
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2/27/2015 11:12:56 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/27/2015 10:50:56 PM, GamrDeb8rBbrH8r wrote:
At 2/27/2015 8:15:22 PM, briantheliberal wrote:
Once again, the right is proving to the rest of the country how bigoted, backwards and manipulative they really are. As most people probably already know, I am no fan of social conservatism (or even fiscal conservatism), and every day it is I am enlightened as to why I lean so far left in my views.

One of the biggest political battles in the United States, is over the issue of gay rights. Just recently, after digging around in the news I came across an article revealing, yet another, sneaky right wing strategy. Now that they have lost the same-sex marriage fight, Conservative lawmakers and religious fundamentalists are now passing laws prohibiting the protection of LGBT individuals from discrimination in Arkansas, and are now attempting to spread similar laws across the country. But wait, there is more it...

Not only are these laws giving any and everyone the ability to discriminate against LGBT individuals for whatever reason without consequence, now EVERYONE, even heterosexuals, who "appear gay" are now at risk. Yes, if someone even suspects you of either being gay or lesbian, or not conforming to "non-tradition" gender roles, you are at risk of losing your job, being evicted from your apartment, denied public service, and even kicked out of school. And whoever discriminated against you is now legally allowed to do so because they are protected by law, in Arkansas at least.

A woman loses her home for wearing pants. LEGAL.
A man gets fired from his job for wearing a pink shirt. LEGAL.

It also affects children.

A boy is denied entry from public school because he doesn't like football. LEGAL.
A girl is denied entry from public school because she prefers math and science to arts and crafts. LEGAL.

*gasp* YOURE KIDDING

http://www.washingtonpost.com...
http://thinkprogress.org...
http://www.arktimes.com...

Side note, Most states already allow discrimination on basis of sexual orientation and gender expression. In those states, some communities have filled in that civil rights loophole by passing more inclusive non-discrimination laws at a local level. But now, anti-gay right-wingers have realized that they can pass state laws that make it illegal for those communities to add protections for "new groups" of people. Once again, history is repeating itself and they are on the wrong side of it.

Thoughts? Questions? Comments and Concerns?

Bigots will be bigots will be bigots anyone with half a brain knows these proposed laws are unconstitutional. All these state representatives and state senators are doing is pandering for votes in their next election. So they can say!
"Hey!!!! I fought against it!!!!! "

Mass hysteria, mass ignorance, or mass stupidity?
briantheliberal
Posts: 722
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2/27/2015 11:13:21 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/27/2015 11:06:53 PM, GamrDeb8rBbrH8r wrote:
At 2/27/2015 10:57:28 PM, briantheliberal wrote:
At 2/27/2015 10:50:56 PM, GamrDeb8rBbrH8r wrote:
At 2/27/2015 8:15:22 PM, briantheliberal wrote:
Once again, the right is proving to the rest of the country how bigoted, backwards and manipulative they really are. As most people probably already know, I am no fan of social conservatism (or even fiscal conservatism), and every day it is I am enlightened as to why I lean so far left in my views.

One of the biggest political battles in the United States, is over the issue of gay rights. Just recently, after digging around in the news I came across an article revealing, yet another, sneaky right wing strategy. Now that they have lost the same-sex marriage fight, Conservative lawmakers and religious fundamentalists are now passing laws prohibiting the protection of LGBT individuals from discrimination in Arkansas, and are now attempting to spread similar laws across the country. But wait, there is more it...

Not only are these laws giving any and everyone the ability to discriminate against LGBT individuals for whatever reason without consequence, now EVERYONE, even heterosexuals, who "appear gay" are now at risk. Yes, if someone even suspects you of either being gay or lesbian, or not conforming to "non-tradition" gender roles, you are at risk of losing your job, being evicted from your apartment, denied public service, and even kicked out of school. And whoever discriminated against you is now legally allowed to do so because they are protected by law, in Arkansas at least.

A woman loses her home for wearing pants. LEGAL.
A man gets fired from his job for wearing a pink shirt. LEGAL.

It also affects children.

A boy is denied entry from public school because he doesn't like football. LEGAL.
A girl is denied entry from public school because she prefers math and science to arts and crafts. LEGAL.

*gasp* YOURE KIDDING

http://www.washingtonpost.com...
http://thinkprogress.org...
http://www.arktimes.com...

Side note, Most states already allow discrimination on basis of sexual orientation and gender expression. In those states, some communities have filled in that civil rights loophole by passing more inclusive non-discrimination laws at a local level. But now, anti-gay right-wingers have realized that they can pass state laws that make it illegal for those communities to add protections for "new groups" of people. Once again, history is repeating itself and they are on the wrong side of it.

Thoughts? Questions? Comments and Concerns?

I don't know if you're being sarcastic or not, but no I am not kidding.

No i am not being sarcastic

Okay, sorry couldn't tell. But yes, these are real laws passed recently. They not only allow discrimination, they block attempts to oppose it. I think if you live in the United States you should be on the look out for this, because it negatively affects everyone, not just the LGBT community.
GamrDeb8rBbrH8r
Posts: 341
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2/27/2015 11:27:01 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/27/2015 11:12:56 PM, wsmunit7 wrote:
At 2/27/2015 10:50:56 PM, GamrDeb8rBbrH8r wrote:
At 2/27/2015 8:15:22 PM, briantheliberal wrote:
Once again, the right is proving to the rest of the country how bigoted, backwards and manipulative they really are. As most people probably already know, I am no fan of social conservatism (or even fiscal conservatism), and every day it is I am enlightened as to why I lean so far left in my views.

One of the biggest political battles in the United States, is over the issue of gay rights. Just recently, after digging around in the news I came across an article revealing, yet another, sneaky right wing strategy. Now that they have lost the same-sex marriage fight, Conservative lawmakers and religious fundamentalists are now passing laws prohibiting the protection of LGBT individuals from discrimination in Arkansas, and are now attempting to spread similar laws across the country. But wait, there is more it...

Not only are these laws giving any and everyone the ability to discriminate against LGBT individuals for whatever reason without consequence, now EVERYONE, even heterosexuals, who "appear gay" are now at risk. Yes, if someone even suspects you of either being gay or lesbian, or not conforming to "non-tradition" gender roles, you are at risk of losing your job, being evicted from your apartment, denied public service, and even kicked out of school. And whoever discriminated against you is now legally allowed to do so because they are protected by law, in Arkansas at least.

A woman loses her home for wearing pants. LEGAL.
A man gets fired from his job for wearing a pink shirt. LEGAL.

It also affects children.

A boy is denied entry from public school because he doesn't like football. LEGAL.
A girl is denied entry from public school because she prefers math and science to arts and crafts. LEGAL.

*gasp* YOURE KIDDING

http://www.washingtonpost.com...
http://thinkprogress.org...
http://www.arktimes.com...

Side note, Most states already allow discrimination on basis of sexual orientation and gender expression. In those states, some communities have filled in that civil rights loophole by passing more inclusive non-discrimination laws at a local level. But now, anti-gay right-wingers have realized that they can pass state laws that make it illegal for those communities to add protections for "new groups" of people. Once again, history is repeating itself and they are on the wrong side of it.

Thoughts? Questions? Comments and Concerns?

Bigots will be bigots will be bigots anyone with half a brain knows these proposed laws are unconstitutional. All these state representatives and state senators are doing is pandering for votes in their next election. So they can say!
"Hey!!!! I fought against it!!!!! "

^ I did not write that.

Mass hysteria, mass ignorance, or mass stupidity?
"There's no diversity because we're burning in the melting pot."

-Immortal Technique

Rap battle VS Truth_Seeker: http://www.debate.org...
GamrDeb8rBbrH8r
Posts: 341
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2/27/2015 11:27:39 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/27/2015 11:13:21 PM, briantheliberal wrote:
At 2/27/2015 11:06:53 PM, GamrDeb8rBbrH8r wrote:
At 2/27/2015 10:57:28 PM, briantheliberal wrote:
At 2/27/2015 10:50:56 PM, GamrDeb8rBbrH8r wrote:
At 2/27/2015 8:15:22 PM, briantheliberal wrote:
Once again, the right is proving to the rest of the country how bigoted, backwards and manipulative they really are. As most people probably already know, I am no fan of social conservatism (or even fiscal conservatism), and every day it is I am enlightened as to why I lean so far left in my views.

One of the biggest political battles in the United States, is over the issue of gay rights. Just recently, after digging around in the news I came across an article revealing, yet another, sneaky right wing strategy. Now that they have lost the same-sex marriage fight, Conservative lawmakers and religious fundamentalists are now passing laws prohibiting the protection of LGBT individuals from discrimination in Arkansas, and are now attempting to spread similar laws across the country. But wait, there is more it...

Not only are these laws giving any and everyone the ability to discriminate against LGBT individuals for whatever reason without consequence, now EVERYONE, even heterosexuals, who "appear gay" are now at risk. Yes, if someone even suspects you of either being gay or lesbian, or not conforming to "non-tradition" gender roles, you are at risk of losing your job, being evicted from your apartment, denied public service, and even kicked out of school. And whoever discriminated against you is now legally allowed to do so because they are protected by law, in Arkansas at least.

A woman loses her home for wearing pants. LEGAL.
A man gets fired from his job for wearing a pink shirt. LEGAL.

It also affects children.

A boy is denied entry from public school because he doesn't like football. LEGAL.
A girl is denied entry from public school because she prefers math and science to arts and crafts. LEGAL.

*gasp* YOURE KIDDING

http://www.washingtonpost.com...
http://thinkprogress.org...
http://www.arktimes.com...

Side note, Most states already allow discrimination on basis of sexual orientation and gender expression. In those states, some communities have filled in that civil rights loophole by passing more inclusive non-discrimination laws at a local level. But now, anti-gay right-wingers have realized that they can pass state laws that make it illegal for those communities to add protections for "new groups" of people. Once again, history is repeating itself and they are on the wrong side of it.

Thoughts? Questions? Comments and Concerns?

I don't know if you're being sarcastic or not, but no I am not kidding.

No i am not being sarcastic

Okay, sorry couldn't tell. But yes, these are real laws passed recently. They not only allow discrimination, they block attempts to oppose it. I think if you live in the United States you should be on the look out for this, because it negatively affects everyone, not just the LGBT community.

*Peels eyes*
"There's no diversity because we're burning in the melting pot."

-Immortal Technique

Rap battle VS Truth_Seeker: http://www.debate.org...
Vox_Veritas
Posts: 7,065
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2/28/2015 11:06:25 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/27/2015 8:15:22 PM, briantheliberal wrote:
Once again, the right is proving to the rest of the country how bigoted, backwards and manipulative they really are. As most people probably already know, I am no fan of social conservatism (or even fiscal conservatism), and every day it is I am enlightened as to why I lean so far left in my views.

One of the biggest political battles in the United States, is over the issue of gay rights. Just recently, after digging around in the news I came across an article revealing, yet another, sneaky right wing strategy. Now that they have lost the same-sex marriage fight, Conservative lawmakers and religious fundamentalists are now passing laws prohibiting the protection of LGBT individuals from discrimination in Arkansas, and are now attempting to spread similar laws across the country. But wait, there is more it...

Not only are these laws giving any and everyone the ability to discriminate against LGBT individuals for whatever reason without consequence, now EVERYONE, even heterosexuals, who "appear gay" are now at risk. Yes, if someone even suspects you of either being gay or lesbian, or not conforming to "non-tradition" gender roles, you are at risk of losing your job, being evicted from your apartment, denied public service, and even kicked out of school. And whoever discriminated against you is now legally allowed to do so because they are protected by law, in Arkansas at least.

A woman loses her home for wearing pants. LEGAL.
A man gets fired from his job for wearing a pink shirt. LEGAL.

It also affects children.

A boy is denied entry from public school because he doesn't like football. LEGAL.
A girl is denied entry from public school because she prefers math and science to arts and crafts. LEGAL.

http://www.washingtonpost.com...
http://thinkprogress.org...
http://www.arktimes.com...

Side note, Most states already allow discrimination on basis of sexual orientation and gender expression. In those states, some communities have filled in that civil rights loophole by passing more inclusive non-discrimination laws at a local level. But now, anti-gay right-wingers have realized that they can pass state laws that make it illegal for those communities to add protections for "new groups" of people. Once again, history is repeating itself and they are on the wrong side of it.

Thoughts? Questions? Comments and Concerns?

I'm not knowledgeable as to the degree and severity of these laws, but I do agree with the "Religious Right" that new measures are passed to ensure that the newfound freedoms of the LGBT movement does not have negative consequences on the Conservative Christian community.
That is, unless the bakery in question specifically caters to gay weddings or gay customers outnumber straight customers, the workers whose religious beliefs prohibit it should be exempt from having to cater to these customers without being fired.
You may say "If they're not doing their job they should be fired", but that's bull as they may simply desire to cater to weddings which they consider legitimate, or they may have been in the business for years before gay marriage was legalized and now they're faced with an unpleasant predicament.
Also, if the business is owned by a Christian Conservative, he/she should be able to decide on religious grounds that his/her business doesn't cater to gay weddings.
This also applies to inns/hotels where there is a "honeymoon suite" available.

Now, some people strawman this as to say that a worker at a McDonald's should arbitrarily be able to decide not to serve a gay customer on religious grounds. This is just plain bullpoop, as a McDonald's (usually) has nothing to do with weddings. The issue here is the endorsement of gay weddings, and applying the "bigoted" label does not in any way negate the rights of Conservative Christians.
Gays should have the right to marry; so why do you now insist on denying the rights of the religious?
Call me Vox, the Resident Contrarian of debate.org.

The DDO Blog:
https://debatedotorg.wordpress.com...

#drinkthecoffeenotthekoolaid
Vox_Veritas
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2/28/2015 11:09:34 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/28/2015 11:06:25 AM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 2/27/2015 8:15:22 PM, briantheliberal wrote:
Once again, the right is proving to the rest of the country how bigoted, backwards and manipulative they really are. As most people probably already know, I am no fan of social conservatism (or even fiscal conservatism), and every day it is I am enlightened as to why I lean so far left in my views.

One of the biggest political battles in the United States, is over the issue of gay rights. Just recently, after digging around in the news I came across an article revealing, yet another, sneaky right wing strategy. Now that they have lost the same-sex marriage fight, Conservative lawmakers and religious fundamentalists are now passing laws prohibiting the protection of LGBT individuals from discrimination in Arkansas, and are now attempting to spread similar laws across the country. But wait, there is more it...

Not only are these laws giving any and everyone the ability to discriminate against LGBT individuals for whatever reason without consequence, now EVERYONE, even heterosexuals, who "appear gay" are now at risk. Yes, if someone even suspects you of either being gay or lesbian, or not conforming to "non-tradition" gender roles, you are at risk of losing your job, being evicted from your apartment, denied public service, and even kicked out of school. And whoever discriminated against you is now legally allowed to do so because they are protected by law, in Arkansas at least.

A woman loses her home for wearing pants. LEGAL.
A man gets fired from his job for wearing a pink shirt. LEGAL.

It also affects children.

A boy is denied entry from public school because he doesn't like football. LEGAL.
A girl is denied entry from public school because she prefers math and science to arts and crafts. LEGAL.

http://www.washingtonpost.com...
http://thinkprogress.org...
http://www.arktimes.com...

Side note, Most states already allow discrimination on basis of sexual orientation and gender expression. In those states, some communities have filled in that civil rights loophole by passing more inclusive non-discrimination laws at a local level. But now, anti-gay right-wingers have realized that they can pass state laws that make it illegal for those communities to add protections for "new groups" of people. Once again, history is repeating itself and they are on the wrong side of it.

Thoughts? Questions? Comments and Concerns?

I'm not knowledgeable as to the degree and severity of these laws, but I do agree with the "Religious Right" that new measures are passed to ensure that the newfound freedoms of the LGBT movement does not have negative consequences on the Conservative Christian community.
That is, unless the bakery in question specifically caters to gay weddings or gay customers outnumber straight customers, the workers whose religious beliefs prohibit it should be exempt from having to cater to these customers without being fired.
You may say "If they're not doing their job they should be fired", but that's bull as they may simply desire to cater to weddings which they consider legitimate, or they may have been in the business for years before gay marriage was legalized and now they're faced with an unpleasant predicament.
Also, if the business is owned by a Christian Conservative, he/she should be able to decide on religious grounds that his/her business doesn't cater to gay weddings.
This also applies to inns/hotels where there is a "honeymoon suite" available.

Now, some people strawman this as to say that a worker at a McDonald's should arbitrarily be able to decide not to serve a gay customer on religious grounds. This is just plain bullpoop, as a McDonald's (usually) has nothing to do with weddings. The issue here is the endorsement of gay weddings, and applying the "bigoted" label does not in any way negate the rights of Conservative Christians.
Gays should have the right to marry; so why do you now insist on denying the rights of the religious?

Also, as I personally have the Washington Post app on my Kindle Fire, I can testify to the fact that almost everything they say has a Left-Wing slant, and thus is not entirely reliable.
Call me Vox, the Resident Contrarian of debate.org.

The DDO Blog:
https://debatedotorg.wordpress.com...

#drinkthecoffeenotthekoolaid
Diqiucun_Cunmin
Posts: 2,710
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2/28/2015 11:13:53 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
I think their justification for this is the usual reverse discrimination argument, the 'We have our rights to our traditional/religious/whatever values!' thing.
The thing is, I hate relativism. I hate relativism more than I hate everything else, excepting, maybe, fibreglass powerboats... What it overlooks, to put it briefly and crudely, is the fixed structure of human nature. - Jerry Fodor

Don't be a stat cynic:
http://www.debate.org...

Response to conservative views on deforestation:
http://www.debate.org...

Topics I'd like to debate (not debating ATM): http://tinyurl.com...
wsmunit7
Posts: 1,318
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2/28/2015 12:48:01 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/28/2015 11:09:34 AM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 2/28/2015 11:06:25 AM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 2/27/2015 8:15:22 PM, briantheliberal wrote:
Once again, the right is proving to the rest of the country how bigoted, backwards and manipulative they really are. As most people probably already know, I am no fan of social conservatism (or even fiscal conservatism), and every day it is I am enlightened as to why I lean so far left in my views.

One of the biggest political battles in the United States, is over the issue of gay rights. Just recently, after digging around in the news I came across an article revealing, yet another, sneaky right wing strategy. Now that they have lost the same-sex marriage fight, Conservative lawmakers and religious fundamentalists are now passing laws prohibiting the protection of LGBT individuals from discrimination in Arkansas, and are now attempting to spread similar laws across the country. But wait, there is more it...

Not only are these laws giving any and everyone the ability to discriminate against LGBT individuals for whatever reason without consequence, now EVERYONE, even heterosexuals, who "appear gay" are now at risk. Yes, if someone even suspects you of either being gay or lesbian, or not conforming to "non-tradition" gender roles, you are at risk of losing your job, being evicted from your apartment, denied public service, and even kicked out of school. And whoever discriminated against you is now legally allowed to do so because they are protected by law, in Arkansas at least.

A woman loses her home for wearing pants. LEGAL.
A man gets fired from his job for wearing a pink shirt. LEGAL.

It also affects children.

A boy is denied entry from public school because he doesn't like football. LEGAL.
A girl is denied entry from public school because she prefers math and science to arts and crafts. LEGAL.

http://www.washingtonpost.com...
http://thinkprogress.org...
http://www.arktimes.com...

Side note, Most states already allow discrimination on basis of sexual orientation and gender expression. In those states, some communities have filled in that civil rights loophole by passing more inclusive non-discrimination laws at a local level. But now, anti-gay right-wingers have realized that they can pass state laws that make it illegal for those communities to add protections for "new groups" of people. Once again, history is repeating itself and they are on the wrong side of it.

Thoughts? Questions? Comments and Concerns?

I'm not knowledgeable as to the degree and severity of these laws, but I do agree with the "Religious Right" that new measures are passed to ensure that the newfound freedoms of the LGBT movement does not have negative consequences on the Conservative Christian community.
That is, unless the bakery in question specifically caters to gay weddings or gay customers outnumber straight customers, the workers whose religious beliefs prohibit it should be exempt from having to cater to these customers without being fired.
You may say "If they're not doing their job they should be fired", but that's bull as they may simply desire to cater to weddings which they consider legitimate, or they may have been in the business for years before gay marriage was legalized and now they're faced with an unpleasant predicament.
Also, if the business is owned by a Christian Conservative, he/she should be able to decide on religious grounds that his/her business doesn't cater to gay weddings.
This also applies to inns/hotels where there is a "honeymoon suite" available.

Now, some people strawman this as to say that a worker at a McDonald's should arbitrarily be able to decide not to serve a gay customer on religious grounds. This is just plain bullpoop, as a McDonald's (usually) has nothing to do with weddings. The issue here is the endorsement of gay weddings, and applying the "bigoted" label does not in any way negate the rights of Conservative Christians.
Gays should have the right to marry; so why do you now insist on denying the rights of the religious?

Also, as I personally have the Washington Post app on my Kindle Fire, I can testify to the fact that almost everything they say has a Left-Wing slant, and thus is not entirely reliable.

And your testimony is nothing more than personal opinion.
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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2/28/2015 1:26:57 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Part of living in a free nation is that there will be people that disagree with you and you cannot force them to do anything. This applies both ways. A bigot cannot force a black person to sit in the back of the bus. A bigot cannot force a gay woman to have long hair and wear a skirt. But also, a bigot cannot force someone to employ someone they do not want to.

The basic argument is if a gay person is good at their job (so that being gay is the only reason they are being fired), then they are resulting in more money coming in to the business, then their paycheck results in. We can also conclude that they are the best available investment for that position. If there were others that were more qualified or skilled, the employee would be replaced regardless.

So the employer firing the gay employee hurts their own business, since any replacement will not be as efficient (since they would have been replaced regardless of their sexuality if better options were out there). Since not every single business will be doing this (since not 100% of people are bigots anywhere), that means those that don't do it will be able to get a great employee. So the bigoted companies will only hurt themselves, and help the non-bigoted companies. They will, in time, weed themselves right out of business.

**This is devils advocate, and there is a liberally economic response to it**
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
briantheliberal
Posts: 722
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2/28/2015 2:42:53 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/28/2015 11:06:25 AM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 2/27/2015 8:15:22 PM, briantheliberal wrote:
Once again, the right is proving to the rest of the country how bigoted, backwards and manipulative they really are. As most people probably already know, I am no fan of social conservatism (or even fiscal conservatism), and every day it is I am enlightened as to why I lean so far left in my views.

One of the biggest political battles in the United States, is over the issue of gay rights. Just recently, after digging around in the news I came across an article revealing, yet another, sneaky right wing strategy. Now that they have lost the same-sex marriage fight, Conservative lawmakers and religious fundamentalists are now passing laws prohibiting the protection of LGBT individuals from discrimination in Arkansas, and are now attempting to spread similar laws across the country. But wait, there is more it...

Not only are these laws giving any and everyone the ability to discriminate against LGBT individuals for whatever reason without consequence, now EVERYONE, even heterosexuals, who "appear gay" are now at risk. Yes, if someone even suspects you of either being gay or lesbian, or not conforming to "non-tradition" gender roles, you are at risk of losing your job, being evicted from your apartment, denied public service, and even kicked out of school. And whoever discriminated against you is now legally allowed to do so because they are protected by law, in Arkansas at least.

A woman loses her home for wearing pants. LEGAL.
A man gets fired from his job for wearing a pink shirt. LEGAL.

It also affects children.

A boy is denied entry from public school because he doesn't like football. LEGAL.
A girl is denied entry from public school because she prefers math and science to arts and crafts. LEGAL.

http://www.washingtonpost.com...
http://thinkprogress.org...
http://www.arktimes.com...

Side note, Most states already allow discrimination on basis of sexual orientation and gender expression. In those states, some communities have filled in that civil rights loophole by passing more inclusive non-discrimination laws at a local level. But now, anti-gay right-wingers have realized that they can pass state laws that make it illegal for those communities to add protections for "new groups" of people. Once again, history is repeating itself and they are on the wrong side of it.

Thoughts? Questions? Comments and Concerns?

I'm not knowledgeable as to the degree and severity of these laws, but I do agree with the "Religious Right" that new measures are passed to ensure that the newfound freedoms of the LGBT movement does not have negative consequences on the Conservative Christian community.
That is, unless the bakery in question specifically caters to gay weddings or gay customers outnumber straight customers, the workers whose religious beliefs prohibit it should be exempt from having to cater to these customers without being fired.
You may say "If they're not doing their job they should be fired", but that's bull as they may simply desire to cater to weddings which they consider legitimate, or they may have been in the business for years before gay marriage was legalized and now they're faced with an unpleasant predicament.
Also, if the business is owned by a Christian Conservative, he/she should be able to decide on religious grounds that his/her business doesn't cater to gay weddings.
This also applies to inns/hotels where there is a "honeymoon suite" available.

Now, some people strawman this as to say that a worker at a McDonald's should arbitrarily be able to decide not to serve a gay customer on religious grounds. This is just plain bullpoop, as a McDonald's (usually) has nothing to do with weddings. The issue here is the endorsement of gay weddings, and applying the "bigoted" label does not in any way negate the rights of Conservative Christians.
Gays should have the right to marry; so why do you now insist on denying the rights of the religious?

So basically you agree with the discrimination of one group to protect the bigotry of another? That is exactly the issue here. There is no such thing as "reverse discrimination" and granting LGBT citizens protection under the law does not infringe the Conservative Christian's right to hate gay, bisexual and trans people. That's like saying, because I am an atheist, I should have the freedom to discriminate against Christians, but do I have that freedom? No. And honestly I don't want that "freedom" because it treads on the freedoms of other people. So why do Conservative Christians get to be exempted from this? If they can discriminate against gays, I should be able to discriminate against them without consequence, right?

Bigotry and discrimination should never be justified by the law. It seems Conservative Christians only care about freedom when they are entitled to it. But when everyone else has the same freedom, they find every reason to complain and pretend to be victimized because they cannot victimize others or stand the taste of their own medicine.

Also, this law is more than just bakeries and gay weddings. Anyone can be discriminated against for any reason. If you are a straight man who deviates from "gender norms" in any way, someone can fire you, evict you from your home, refuse to serve you in PUBLIC places.
briantheliberal
Posts: 722
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2/28/2015 2:45:12 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/28/2015 11:13:53 AM, Diqiucun_Cunmin wrote:
I think their justification for this is the usual reverse discrimination argument, the 'We have our rights to our traditional/religious/whatever values!' thing.

Exactly, and by that same logic, I should be able to discriminate against them for the same reasons. But I can't, not that I would want to because I am not as bigoted as they are. However, the same rule still applies.
briantheliberal
Posts: 722
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2/28/2015 2:52:37 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/28/2015 1:26:57 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
Part of living in a free nation is that there will be people that disagree with you and you cannot force them to do anything. This applies both ways. A bigot cannot force a black person to sit in the back of the bus. A bigot cannot force a gay woman to have long hair and wear a skirt. But also, a bigot cannot force someone to employ someone they do not want to.

The basic argument is if a gay person is good at their job (so that being gay is the only reason they are being fired), then they are resulting in more money coming in to the business, then their paycheck results in. We can also conclude that they are the best available investment for that position. If there were others that were more qualified or skilled, the employee would be replaced regardless.

So the employer firing the gay employee hurts their own business, since any replacement will not be as efficient (since they would have been replaced regardless of their sexuality if better options were out there). Since not every single business will be doing this (since not 100% of people are bigots anywhere), that means those that don't do it will be able to get a great employee. So the bigoted companies will only hurt themselves, and help the non-bigoted companies. They will, in time, weed themselves right out of business.

**This is devils advocate, and there is a liberally economic response to it**

But if the reason is discriminatory, it shouldn't be justified. And that has nothing to do with this issue really. I never said anything about forcing anyone to hire anyone else. If an employer fires a man because he is gay or because he is doesn't conform to gender norms, that is discrimination. The law I mentioned above allows everyone to discriminate against anyone they want on basis of sexual orientation, gender identity AND gender expression, which means heterosexuals are affected by this as well.
Vox_Veritas
Posts: 7,065
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2/28/2015 4:14:33 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/28/2015 2:42:53 PM, briantheliberal wrote:
At 2/28/2015 11:06:25 AM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 2/27/2015 8:15:22 PM, briantheliberal wrote:
Once again, the right is proving to the rest of the country how bigoted, backwards and manipulative they really are. As most people probably already know, I am no fan of social conservatism (or even fiscal conservatism), and every day it is I am enlightened as to why I lean so far left in my views.

One of the biggest political battles in the United States, is over the issue of gay rights. Just recently, after digging around in the news I came across an article revealing, yet another, sneaky right wing strategy. Now that they have lost the same-sex marriage fight, Conservative lawmakers and religious fundamentalists are now passing laws prohibiting the protection of LGBT individuals from discrimination in Arkansas, and are now attempting to spread similar laws across the country. But wait, there is more it...

Not only are these laws giving any and everyone the ability to discriminate against LGBT individuals for whatever reason without consequence, now EVERYONE, even heterosexuals, who "appear gay" are now at risk. Yes, if someone even suspects you of either being gay or lesbian, or not conforming to "non-tradition" gender roles, you are at risk of losing your job, being evicted from your apartment, denied public service, and even kicked out of school. And whoever discriminated against you is now legally allowed to do so because they are protected by law, in Arkansas at least.

A woman loses her home for wearing pants. LEGAL.
A man gets fired from his job for wearing a pink shirt. LEGAL.

It also affects children.

A boy is denied entry from public school because he doesn't like football. LEGAL.
A girl is denied entry from public school because she prefers math and science to arts and crafts. LEGAL.

http://www.washingtonpost.com...
http://thinkprogress.org...
http://www.arktimes.com...

Side note, Most states already allow discrimination on basis of sexual orientation and gender expression. In those states, some communities have filled in that civil rights loophole by passing more inclusive non-discrimination laws at a local level. But now, anti-gay right-wingers have realized that they can pass state laws that make it illegal for those communities to add protections for "new groups" of people. Once again, history is repeating itself and they are on the wrong side of it.

Thoughts? Questions? Comments and Concerns?

I'm not knowledgeable as to the degree and severity of these laws, but I do agree with the "Religious Right" that new measures are passed to ensure that the newfound freedoms of the LGBT movement does not have negative consequences on the Conservative Christian community.
That is, unless the bakery in question specifically caters to gay weddings or gay customers outnumber straight customers, the workers whose religious beliefs prohibit it should be exempt from having to cater to these customers without being fired.
You may say "If they're not doing their job they should be fired", but that's bull as they may simply desire to cater to weddings which they consider legitimate, or they may have been in the business for years before gay marriage was legalized and now they're faced with an unpleasant predicament.
Also, if the business is owned by a Christian Conservative, he/she should be able to decide on religious grounds that his/her business doesn't cater to gay weddings.
This also applies to inns/hotels where there is a "honeymoon suite" available.

Now, some people strawman this as to say that a worker at a McDonald's should arbitrarily be able to decide not to serve a gay customer on religious grounds. This is just plain bullpoop, as a McDonald's (usually) has nothing to do with weddings. The issue here is the endorsement of gay weddings, and applying the "bigoted" label does not in any way negate the rights of Conservative Christians.
Gays should have the right to marry; so why do you now insist on denying the rights of the religious?

So basically you agree with the discrimination of one group to protect the bigotry of another? That is exactly the issue here. There is no such thing as "reverse discrimination" and granting LGBT citizens protection under the law does not infringe the Conservative Christian's right to hate gay, bisexual and trans people. That's like saying, because I am an atheist, I should have the freedom to discriminate against Christians, but do I have that freedom? No. And honestly I don't want that "freedom" because it treads on the freedoms of other people. So why do Conservative Christians get to be exempted from this? If they can discriminate against gays, I should be able to discriminate against them without consequence, right?

Bigotry and discrimination should never be justified by the law. It seems Conservative Christians only care about freedom when they are entitled to it. But when everyone else has the same freedom, they find every reason to complain and pretend to be victimized because they cannot victimize others or stand the taste of their own medicine.

Also, this law is more than just bakeries and gay weddings. Anyone can be discriminated against for any reason. If you are a straight man who deviates from "gender norms" in any way, someone can fire you, evict you from your home, refuse to serve you in PUBLIC places.

I don't know why I even bother.
Call me Vox, the Resident Contrarian of debate.org.

The DDO Blog:
https://debatedotorg.wordpress.com...

#drinkthecoffeenotthekoolaid
briantheliberal
Posts: 722
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2/28/2015 4:45:55 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/28/2015 4:14:33 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 2/28/2015 2:42:53 PM, briantheliberal wrote:
At 2/28/2015 11:06:25 AM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 2/27/2015 8:15:22 PM, briantheliberal wrote:
Once again, the right is proving to the rest of the country how bigoted, backwards and manipulative they really are. As most people probably already know, I am no fan of social conservatism (or even fiscal conservatism), and every day it is I am enlightened as to why I lean so far left in my views.

One of the biggest political battles in the United States, is over the issue of gay rights. Just recently, after digging around in the news I came across an article revealing, yet another, sneaky right wing strategy. Now that they have lost the same-sex marriage fight, Conservative lawmakers and religious fundamentalists are now passing laws prohibiting the protection of LGBT individuals from discrimination in Arkansas, and are now attempting to spread similar laws across the country. But wait, there is more it...

Not only are these laws giving any and everyone the ability to discriminate against LGBT individuals for whatever reason without consequence, now EVERYONE, even heterosexuals, who "appear gay" are now at risk. Yes, if someone even suspects you of either being gay or lesbian, or not conforming to "non-tradition" gender roles, you are at risk of losing your job, being evicted from your apartment, denied public service, and even kicked out of school. And whoever discriminated against you is now legally allowed to do so because they are protected by law, in Arkansas at least.

A woman loses her home for wearing pants. LEGAL.
A man gets fired from his job for wearing a pink shirt. LEGAL.

It also affects children.

A boy is denied entry from public school because he doesn't like football. LEGAL.
A girl is denied entry from public school because she prefers math and science to arts and crafts. LEGAL.

http://www.washingtonpost.com...
http://thinkprogress.org...
http://www.arktimes.com...

Side note, Most states already allow discrimination on basis of sexual orientation and gender expression. In those states, some communities have filled in that civil rights loophole by passing more inclusive non-discrimination laws at a local level. But now, anti-gay right-wingers have realized that they can pass state laws that make it illegal for those communities to add protections for "new groups" of people. Once again, history is repeating itself and they are on the wrong side of it.

Thoughts? Questions? Comments and Concerns?

I'm not knowledgeable as to the degree and severity of these laws, but I do agree with the "Religious Right" that new measures are passed to ensure that the newfound freedoms of the LGBT movement does not have negative consequences on the Conservative Christian community.
That is, unless the bakery in question specifically caters to gay weddings or gay customers outnumber straight customers, the workers whose religious beliefs prohibit it should be exempt from having to cater to these customers without being fired.
You may say "If they're not doing their job they should be fired", but that's bull as they may simply desire to cater to weddings which they consider legitimate, or they may have been in the business for years before gay marriage was legalized and now they're faced with an unpleasant predicament.
Also, if the business is owned by a Christian Conservative, he/she should be able to decide on religious grounds that his/her business doesn't cater to gay weddings.
This also applies to inns/hotels where there is a "honeymoon suite" available.

Now, some people strawman this as to say that a worker at a McDonald's should arbitrarily be able to decide not to serve a gay customer on religious grounds. This is just plain bullpoop, as a McDonald's (usually) has nothing to do with weddings. The issue here is the endorsement of gay weddings, and applying the "bigoted" label does not in any way negate the rights of Conservative Christians.
Gays should have the right to marry; so why do you now insist on denying the rights of the religious?

So basically you agree with the discrimination of one group to protect the bigotry of another? That is exactly the issue here. There is no such thing as "reverse discrimination" and granting LGBT citizens protection under the law does not infringe the Conservative Christian's right to hate gay, bisexual and trans people. That's like saying, because I am an atheist, I should have the freedom to discriminate against Christians, but do I have that freedom? No. And honestly I don't want that "freedom" because it treads on the freedoms of other people. So why do Conservative Christians get to be exempted from this? If they can discriminate against gays, I should be able to discriminate against them without consequence, right?

Bigotry and discrimination should never be justified by the law. It seems Conservative Christians only care about freedom when they are entitled to it. But when everyone else has the same freedom, they find every reason to complain and pretend to be victimized because they cannot victimize others or stand the taste of their own medicine.

Also, this law is more than just bakeries and gay weddings. Anyone can be discriminated against for any reason. If you are a straight man who deviates from "gender norms" in any way, someone can fire you, evict you from your home, refuse to serve you in PUBLIC places.

I don't know why I even bother.

I don't know why you even bother either, because I clearly presented the facts of the issue and you still made it about something completely different than what it is. How in the world does protecting one group infringe on the rights of another? Answer - it doesn't.
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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2/28/2015 4:56:08 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/28/2015 2:52:37 PM, briantheliberal wrote:
At 2/28/2015 1:26:57 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
Part of living in a free nation is that there will be people that disagree with you and you cannot force them to do anything. This applies both ways. A bigot cannot force a black person to sit in the back of the bus. A bigot cannot force a gay woman to have long hair and wear a skirt. But also, a bigot cannot force someone to employ someone they do not want to.

The basic argument is if a gay person is good at their job (so that being gay is the only reason they are being fired), then they are resulting in more money coming in to the business, then their paycheck results in. We can also conclude that they are the best available investment for that position. If there were others that were more qualified or skilled, the employee would be replaced regardless.

So the employer firing the gay employee hurts their own business, since any replacement will not be as efficient (since they would have been replaced regardless of their sexuality if better options were out there). Since not every single business will be doing this (since not 100% of people are bigots anywhere), that means those that don't do it will be able to get a great employee. So the bigoted companies will only hurt themselves, and help the non-bigoted companies. They will, in time, weed themselves right out of business.

**This is devils advocate, and there is a liberally economic response to it**

But if the reason is discriminatory, it shouldn't be justified. And that has nothing to do with this issue really. I never said anything about forcing anyone to hire anyone else. If an employer fires a man because he is gay or because he is doesn't conform to gender norms, that is discrimination. The law I mentioned above allows everyone to discriminate against anyone they want on basis of sexual orientation, gender identity AND gender expression, which means heterosexuals are affected by this as well.

So? Who says discrimination is by definition bad? I'm glad we discriminate against murderers and rapists. If I don't want to employ someone, is that not my right? Every transaction or engagement has two parties. BOTH parties have to be willing in a free society. Just look at employment. You have to have an employer (there's one party) and an employee (there's the other party). They both have to agree on the work duties and compensation. If the worker believes he is not being fairly compensated, they may back out of the labor transaction. If the employer believes that the labor is not worth the cost, they may back out of the labor transaction.

You've probably heard of a time when only one party needed to agree. When the "employer" made the rules and the "employee" was not allowed to back out of it was called slavery. It is not a good thing. Switching the roles, saying an employer cannot back out is morally just as wrong. You are turning the employer into a slave of the employee, where they are not allowed to disengage in a transaction that they do not wish to be part of.

If you want liberty and freedom, you have to let people be who they want to be.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
Vox_Veritas
Posts: 7,065
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2/28/2015 5:20:29 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/28/2015 4:45:55 PM, briantheliberal wrote:
At 2/28/2015 4:14:33 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 2/28/2015 2:42:53 PM, briantheliberal wrote:
At 2/28/2015 11:06:25 AM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 2/27/2015 8:15:22 PM, briantheliberal wrote:
Once again, the right is proving to the rest of the country how bigoted, backwards and manipulative they really are. As most people probably already know, I am no fan of social conservatism (or even fiscal conservatism), and every day it is I am enlightened as to why I lean so far left in my views.

One of the biggest political battles in the United States, is over the issue of gay rights. Just recently, after digging around in the news I came across an article revealing, yet another, sneaky right wing strategy. Now that they have lost the same-sex marriage fight, Conservative lawmakers and religious fundamentalists are now passing laws prohibiting the protection of LGBT individuals from discrimination in Arkansas, and are now attempting to spread similar laws across the country. But wait, there is more it...

Not only are these laws giving any and everyone the ability to discriminate against LGBT individuals for whatever reason without consequence, now EVERYONE, even heterosexuals, who "appear gay" are now at risk. Yes, if someone even suspects you of either being gay or lesbian, or not conforming to "non-tradition" gender roles, you are at risk of losing your job, being evicted from your apartment, denied public service, and even kicked out of school. And whoever discriminated against you is now legally allowed to do so because they are protected by law, in Arkansas at least.

A woman loses her home for wearing pants. LEGAL.
A man gets fired from his job for wearing a pink shirt. LEGAL.

It also affects children.

A boy is denied entry from public school because he doesn't like football. LEGAL.
A girl is denied entry from public school because she prefers math and science to arts and crafts. LEGAL.

http://www.washingtonpost.com...
http://thinkprogress.org...
http://www.arktimes.com...

Side note, Most states already allow discrimination on basis of sexual orientation and gender expression. In those states, some communities have filled in that civil rights loophole by passing more inclusive non-discrimination laws at a local level. But now, anti-gay right-wingers have realized that they can pass state laws that make it illegal for those communities to add protections for "new groups" of people. Once again, history is repeating itself and they are on the wrong side of it.

Thoughts? Questions? Comments and Concerns?

I'm not knowledgeable as to the degree and severity of these laws, but I do agree with the "Religious Right" that new measures are passed to ensure that the newfound freedoms of the LGBT movement does not have negative consequences on the Conservative Christian community.
That is, unless the bakery in question specifically caters to gay weddings or gay customers outnumber straight customers, the workers whose religious beliefs prohibit it should be exempt from having to cater to these customers without being fired.
You may say "If they're not doing their job they should be fired", but that's bull as they may simply desire to cater to weddings which they consider legitimate, or they may have been in the business for years before gay marriage was legalized and now they're faced with an unpleasant predicament.
Also, if the business is owned by a Christian Conservative, he/she should be able to decide on religious grounds that his/her business doesn't cater to gay weddings.
This also applies to inns/hotels where there is a "honeymoon suite" available.

Now, some people strawman this as to say that a worker at a McDonald's should arbitrarily be able to decide not to serve a gay customer on religious grounds. This is just plain bullpoop, as a McDonald's (usually) has nothing to do with weddings. The issue here is the endorsement of gay weddings, and applying the "bigoted" label does not in any way negate the rights of Conservative Christians.
Gays should have the right to marry; so why do you now insist on denying the rights of the religious?

So basically you agree with the discrimination of one group to protect the bigotry of another? That is exactly the issue here. There is no such thing as "reverse discrimination" and granting LGBT citizens protection under the law does not infringe the Conservative Christian's right to hate gay, bisexual and trans people. That's like saying, because I am an atheist, I should have the freedom to discriminate against Christians, but do I have that freedom? No. And honestly I don't want that "freedom" because it treads on the freedoms of other people. So why do Conservative Christians get to be exempted from this? If they can discriminate against gays, I should be able to discriminate against them without consequence, right?

Bigotry and discrimination should never be justified by the law. It seems Conservative Christians only care about freedom when they are entitled to it. But when everyone else has the same freedom, they find every reason to complain and pretend to be victimized because they cannot victimize others or stand the taste of their own medicine.

Also, this law is more than just bakeries and gay weddings. Anyone can be discriminated against for any reason. If you are a straight man who deviates from "gender norms" in any way, someone can fire you, evict you from your home, refuse to serve you in PUBLIC places.

I don't know why I even bother.

I don't know why you even bother either, because I clearly presented the facts of the issue and you still made it about something completely different than what it is. How in the world does protecting one group infringe on the rights of another? Answer - it doesn't.

Because the Conservative Christians have their rights potentially infringed upon by the current arrangement.
For example, you're Bob. You are the founder and owner of Bob's Wedding Cakery. Your business has been open since 1997, and you are a Conservative Christian. Gay marriage was legalized in your state in 2014.
One day, in February of 2015, two men walk into your establishment.
"Hi," one of them says. "I'm Chuck, and this is my partner, Larry. We're firemen, and we're going to be married in a month, and we need a wedding cake. We'd like you to write 'Congratulations Chuck and Larry' on the cake. Do you think you can arrange this for us?"
Now, Bob's in a predicament. Morally, he believes that homosexuality is immoral. He feels that in making this cake for them he'd be endorsing the homosexual lifestyle. Feels that making this cake would be wrong. He entered the wedding catering business because that's what he wanted to do, but he never anticipated that it would mean making cakes for homosexual weddings. He just wanted to make cakes for straight weddings, but he knows that if he refuses them he'll be fined in court, or even imprisoned. You see the president?
Now, if baking a cake is endorsing the homosexual lifestyle, imagine how much worse it'd be for, say, a pastor.
The law needs to accommodate both groups; Christians should not have to suffer for the legalization of same-sex marriage.
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briantheliberal
Posts: 722
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2/28/2015 5:23:22 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/28/2015 4:56:08 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 2/28/2015 2:52:37 PM, briantheliberal wrote:
At 2/28/2015 1:26:57 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
Part of living in a free nation is that there will be people that disagree with you and you cannot force them to do anything. This applies both ways. A bigot cannot force a black person to sit in the back of the bus. A bigot cannot force a gay woman to have long hair and wear a skirt. But also, a bigot cannot force someone to employ someone they do not want to.

The basic argument is if a gay person is good at their job (so that being gay is the only reason they are being fired), then they are resulting in more money coming in to the business, then their paycheck results in. We can also conclude that they are the best available investment for that position. If there were others that were more qualified or skilled, the employee would be replaced regardless.

So the employer firing the gay employee hurts their own business, since any replacement will not be as efficient (since they would have been replaced regardless of their sexuality if better options were out there). Since not every single business will be doing this (since not 100% of people are bigots anywhere), that means those that don't do it will be able to get a great employee. So the bigoted companies will only hurt themselves, and help the non-bigoted companies. They will, in time, weed themselves right out of business.

**This is devils advocate, and there is a liberally economic response to it**

But if the reason is discriminatory, it shouldn't be justified. And that has nothing to do with this issue really. I never said anything about forcing anyone to hire anyone else. If an employer fires a man because he is gay or because he is doesn't conform to gender norms, that is discrimination. The law I mentioned above allows everyone to discriminate against anyone they want on basis of sexual orientation, gender identity AND gender expression, which means heterosexuals are affected by this as well.

So? Who says discrimination is by definition bad? I'm glad we discriminate against murderers and rapists. If I don't want to employ someone, is that not my right? Every transaction or engagement has two parties. BOTH parties have to be willing in a free society. Just look at employment. You have to have an employer (there's one party) and an employee (there's the other party). They both have to agree on the work duties and compensation. If the worker believes he is not being fairly compensated, they may back out of the labor transaction. If the employer believes that the labor is not worth the cost, they may back out of the labor transaction.

What do you mean "So"? Discrimination on basis of innate and unchangeable qualities like race, sex, gender, nationality is WRONG and a violation of the 14th Amendment. And comparing being gay to being a rapist or murderer makes your argument look ridiculous and illogical. And way to bring up completely irrelevant nonsense that has NOTHING to do with the issue at hand.

You've probably heard of a time when only one party needed to agree. When the "employer" made the rules and the "employee" was not allowed to back out of it was called slavery. It is not a good thing. Switching the roles, saying an employer cannot back out is morally just as wrong. You are turning the employer into a slave of the employee, where they are not allowed to disengage in a transaction that they do not wish to be part of.

Again, THIS ISSUE HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH FORCING EMPLOYERS TO HIRE PEOPLE. Refer to the original post, read carefully then proceed to comment further when you actually know what you're talking about.

If you want liberty and freedom, you have to let people be who they want to be.

Unless they are gay, right? So much for freedom. Hey why don't we go back to Jim Crow based segregation while we are at it, when people of color were denied service in public places and forced to sit in the back of the bus because of the color of their skin and it was completely justified by law. Their freedom didn't matter as long as white people had the freedom to discriminate against them. Do you agree with that too? If not, why do you agree when it happens to the LGBT community?
Wylted
Posts: 21,167
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2/28/2015 5:28:40 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
I'm not sure where you are getting that policy makers would want to allow public schools to discriminate based on sexual orientation. Can you show me something on that or just admit you're mistaken in that regard?

It's the Libertarian position that businesses and individuals should have the right to discriminate based on sexual orientation or any other factor. It goes along with a philosophy based on natural rights. It has nothing to do with discrimination, it is about attempting to maximize autonomous actions.

You see the bills that wish to allow businesses to discriminate are based on the principle on maximizing freedom and not on being hateful or attacking Gay rights.

It is my personal opinion that allowing businesses to openly discriminate is a good thing. Right now it is hard for me to judge which businesses are discriminatory or hateful because they're forced to hide it but if they were allowed to be open about it, I'd know to take my money elsewhere and be able to give financial support to a business that is more sensible in that regard.

Ofcourse I do disagree with businesses that receive a lot of money from the federal government in subsidies should be allowed to be discriminatory. I don't think any banks that got bailed out for example should be allowed to discriminate at all.

The same principle could be applied to other things. Right now we stigmatize people who have pedophilac urges, if we were instead to be less hateful towards them and don't socially stigmatize them as much, they'd feel more free to admit they are pedophiles (not to be confused with child molesters), with these people being open about their sexual orientation, we'd have an easier time choosing safe people for our children to be around.

The moral is to let businesses and people, openly be who they are so we can make more informed choices. It is harder to make the correct choice when entities are forced to hide their true nature it is harder to make a correct decision based on your personal philosophy.
Vox_Veritas
Posts: 7,065
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2/28/2015 5:33:35 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Again, I am not knowledgeable as to the actual nature of the laws in question. I am simply stating my opinion on how it ought to be.
Call me Vox, the Resident Contrarian of debate.org.

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