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Are Trigger Happy Police to be Blamed?

bsh1
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3/2/2015 9:26:33 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Let me start out by saying I do NOT in any sense condone the use of deadly force against an unarmed suspect who can be subdued through non-lethal methods. However, I think that we sometimes have a tendency to be a bit over-harsh on the police that, for the most part, serve honorably and effectively in our communities.

Police are naturally trigger-happy, perhaps more so in recent years. But they are on the front lines every single day, putting their lives in danger. Despite their training--or, perhaps because of it--they are always alert, and that they know they are targets makes them more inclined to react aggressively and with full force when a perceived threat is encountered. Consider that 124 cops were shot dead in 2014, and policemen everywhere are acutely aware of that. [http://www.npr.org...]

In turn, due to America's recent threats over terrorism, police have become more militarized, which is only going to further amplify police fear for their safety and their willingness to react forcefully. "Federal cash--first to wage war on drugs, then on terror--has paid for much of the heavy weaponry used by SWAT teams. Between 2002 and 2011 the Department of Homeland Security disbursed $35 billion in grants to state and local police. Also, the Pentagon offers surplus military kit to police departments. According to Mr Balko, by 2005 it had provided such gear to more than 17,000 law-enforcement agencies." [http://www.economist.com...]

So, it is fair to say, IMO, that it is a combination of natural survival instincts and militarization that accounts for a lot of these incidents. I think we have to blame those factors more than, perhaps, the individual police officers sometimes. Even if you don't buy that, I think we are sometimes too quick to decide that the cops overused force due to latent or overt racism, rather than because of other factors at play.

Thoughts?
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ford_prefect
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3/2/2015 9:36:57 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Every single police officer made the decision to sign up. None of them were drafted into the job. They knew the risks and responsibilities that came with it. To protect and serve, is what their mission is. So I have to say whenever I see a cop killing unarmed civilians, I am going to hold him accountable for his actions. This is supposed to be a free country with the constitutional right to a trial by jury of peers, not immediate execution on the scene of the crime.

So to answer the question, yes. I fully blame those cowardly killers for the deaths of their unarmed victims.
Skepsikyma
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3/2/2015 9:45:09 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/2/2015 9:26:33 PM, bsh1 wrote:
Thoughts?

My biggest problem is with the evisceration of the entire institution of the Grand Jury since its inception, of the conflict of interests between DAs and police, and of the lack of accountability, both professional and legal, which officers and those affiliated often face. I don't think that all of these cases should be treated as 'guilty until proven innocent'. I just think that there should be a trial, and that grand jury indictment statistics reveal a disturbing double standard when it comes to officers.
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- Hilaire Belloc -
Chang29
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3/3/2015 5:15:50 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Politicians should receive more blame for police killings. Most of local police contact with citizens is to provide revenue to municipalities though enforcement of minor code and traffic violations. Police officers enforcing trivially laws plants seeds of resentment toward the police, which leads to disobeying officers. If a person disobeys an officer that person will most likely end up dead. The solution is less laws. Society does not need armed law enforcement officers enforcing seat belt, jaywalking, and expired registration violations.
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YYW
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3/3/2015 8:21:28 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
I generally agree with the OP.

The police are exposed to the worst in America on a daily basis; their lives are characterized by exposure to violence. It's reasonable to expect them to react accordingly.

It's not right, probably not the best -and they should definitely be exposed to civil liability where the cops overstep- but it's not difficult to understand why police officers act the way that they do.
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bsh1
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3/3/2015 11:39:01 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/2/2015 9:36:57 PM, ford_prefect wrote:

I am actually a bit disappointed in this response, Ford...I think there is a good argument against what I said, but I feel like the below is more emotive than reasoned.

Every single police officer made the decision to sign up. None of them were drafted into the job. They knew the risks and responsibilities that came with it.

Sure, but just because you volunteer for something doesn't mean that the job can't get to you. People volunteered to serve in Vietnam--that doesn't mean that they were any less likely to be emotionally, psychologically, and physically scarred than their drafted counterparts.

Even more so, a lot of police officers come from poorer neighborhoods with few opportunities for advancement. Policing might just be one of the few (legal) jobs with benefits and a steady pay check they can get. So, in that sense, they didn't necessarily becomes officers voluntarily, but because of a dearth of viable alternatives.

To protect and serve, is what their mission is.

And the vast majority of police officers fulfill that mission well. But, we also have to realize that "to protect" us, policemen put themselves in the front line. They can't protect from the sidelines. And because they put themselves in the front lines, and because they are keenly aware of the increased danger they face on the job, they are more likely to act forcefully (and, even, lethally). It's a psychological phenomenon.

I'll discuss this more in a second.

So I have to say whenever I see a cop killing unarmed civilians, I am going to hold him accountable for his actions. This is supposed to be a free country with the constitutional right to a trial by jury of peers, not immediate execution on the scene of the crime.

OMG, the free country B.S. Yes, this is a free country, but just because some cops occasionally and understandably use more force than they should've, that doesn't mean that this country is somehow less free.

More to the point, it's not as if cops are setting up kangaroo courts to try and execute people on the spot. They are just reacting to a dynamic situation in the way that their culture and psychology have influenced them to react.

I think a distinction needs to be made between gut reactions and intentional hit jobs. I think police far more frequently do the former as opposed to the latter, but the media seems to crucify them for doing the latter instead of investigating the possibility of the former.

So to answer the question, yes. I fully blame those cowardly killers for the deaths of their unarmed victims.

I am not going to argue that killing unarmed civilians is usually unacceptable. As I said in the OP, "I do NOT in any sense condone the use of deadly force against an unarmed suspect who can be subdued through non-lethal methods." But, why does the use of lethal force--even where it isn't appropriate--constitute cowardice?

Police nowadays are being raised in and living under a culture of increasing militarization, where force is emphasized as more effective than negotiation or other methods and where tools of force are ever-present, making it easier for cops to rely on those tools instead of other skills.

Furthermore, police are, just because of the uniform they wear, in far more danger than the average civilian. They put themselves on the front lines, which naturally makes them edgy. Esp. in areas of high crime, police may feel like their lives are constantly in jeopardy, which makes them more likely to react defensively and with aggression to perceived threats. It's not cowardice of any special kind--it is just human nature.

And I think that's where the whole crux of this debate lies: we assume too often that police are automatons and that they have these procedures that they can smoothly follow in every situation and that regardless of how tense the crisis is, that they will always be calm, cool, and collected; but that's not just totally false, it's totally unreasonable. Cops are humans too, and we need to make allowances for that.
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bsh1
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3/3/2015 11:44:00 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/2/2015 9:45:09 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 3/2/2015 9:26:33 PM, bsh1 wrote:
Thoughts?

My biggest problem is with...the conflict of interests between DAs and police, and of the lack of accountability, both professional and legal, which officers and those affiliated often face.

I would generally agree with this. I think setting up third-party commission with a separate prosecutor to investigate reports on police would probably be a good step toward alleviating some of these problems.

I just think that there should be a trial, and that grand jury indictment statistics reveal a disturbing double standard when it comes to officers.

I think that, for the exact reasoning that I give in the OP, that some special leniency should be given to officers by juries and grand juries. We can debate whether things are too lenient, but I am strongly inclined to think that some leniency is justified, if not obliged.
Live Long and Prosper

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"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

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bsh1
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3/3/2015 11:48:02 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/3/2015 5:15:50 AM, Chang29 wrote:
If a person disobeys an officer that person will most likely end up dead.

That is definitely not true. If a person disobeys a police officer, they're most likely to be arrested, fined, or jailed. They are not even remotely likely to wind up dead.

You make the police sound like the mafia, taking out hits on everyone who opposes them. That's just not the case.

The solution is less laws. Society does not need armed law enforcement officers enforcing seat belt, jaywalking, and expired registration violations.

Or not...Fewer laws would actually result in more deaths and more chaos.
Live Long and Prosper

I'm a Bish.


"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

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mishapqueen
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3/3/2015 11:52:23 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/2/2015 9:26:33 PM, bsh1 wrote:
Let me start out by saying I do NOT in any sense condone the use of deadly force against an unarmed suspect who can be subdued through non-lethal methods. However, I think that we sometimes have a tendency to be a bit over-harsh on the police that, for the most part, serve honorably and effectively in our communities.

Police are naturally trigger-happy, perhaps more so in recent years. But they are on the front lines every single day, putting their lives in danger. Despite their training--or, perhaps because of it--they are always alert, and that they know they are targets makes them more inclined to react aggressively and with full force when a perceived threat is encountered. Consider that 124 cops were shot dead in 2014, and policemen everywhere are acutely aware of that. [http://www.npr.org...]

In turn, due to America's recent threats over terrorism, police have become more militarized, which is only going to further amplify police fear for their safety and their willingness to react forcefully. "Federal cash--first to wage war on drugs, then on terror--has paid for much of the heavy weaponry used by SWAT teams. Between 2002 and 2011 the Department of Homeland Security disbursed $35 billion in grants to state and local police. Also, the Pentagon offers surplus military kit to police departments. According to Mr Balko, by 2005 it had provided such gear to more than 17,000 law-enforcement agencies." [http://www.economist.com...]

So, it is fair to say, IMO, that it is a combination of natural survival instincts and militarization that accounts for a lot of these incidents. I think we have to blame those factors more than, perhaps, the individual police officers sometimes. Even if you don't buy that, I think we are sometimes too quick to decide that the cops overused force due to latent or overt racism, rather than because of other factors at play.

Thoughts?

This is being discussed a lot in my area since we had a police shooting just a couple weeks ago.
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bsh1
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3/3/2015 11:53:24 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/3/2015 11:52:23 AM, mishapqueen wrote:
At 3/2/2015 9:26:33 PM, bsh1 wrote:

Thoughts?

This is being discussed a lot in my area since we had a police shooting just a couple weeks ago.

Oh wow...And what are your thoughts on the topic?
Live Long and Prosper

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"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

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mishapqueen
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3/3/2015 11:59:37 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/3/2015 11:53:24 AM, bsh1 wrote:
At 3/3/2015 11:52:23 AM, mishapqueen wrote:
At 3/2/2015 9:26:33 PM, bsh1 wrote:

Thoughts?

This is being discussed a lot in my area since we had a police shooting just a couple weeks ago.

Oh wow...And what are your thoughts on the topic?

I'm conflicted. I'm not terribly informed, but I think people jump to conclusions way too quickly. Police officers are people too, and therefore a mixed bag. Just because one is trigger happy, does not mean all are. If we make a policy that binds the police down based off one or two incidents, we could be risking our own safety.

The case in my area I believe was a trigger happy police incident from what I know. Basically a Mexican illegal immigrant kept throwing rocks at police until one day they shot him in the back and killed him.

However issues like that are never cut and dried, and I think as a nation we jump to conclusions too quickly.
You cannot choose whether or not you will live by rules, but you can choose which rules you will live by. --Me

"I was wrong. Squirrels are objectively superior to bunnies in every conceivable dimension."
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"Silence is golden, duct tape is silver" --PetersSmith

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bsh1
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3/3/2015 12:02:40 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/3/2015 11:59:37 AM, mishapqueen wrote:
At 3/3/2015 11:53:24 AM, bsh1 wrote:
At 3/3/2015 11:52:23 AM, mishapqueen wrote:
At 3/2/2015 9:26:33 PM, bsh1 wrote:

Thoughts?

This is being discussed a lot in my area since we had a police shooting just a couple weeks ago.

Oh wow...And what are your thoughts on the topic?

I'm conflicted. I'm not terribly informed, but I think people jump to conclusions way too quickly. Police officers are people too, and therefore a mixed bag. Just because one is trigger happy, does not mean all are. If we make a policy that binds the police down based off one or two incidents, we could be risking our own safety.

I think that's fair. I esp. agree with the bolded part.

The case in my area I believe was a trigger happy police incident from what I know. Basically a Mexican illegal immigrant kept throwing rocks at police until one day they shot him in the back and killed him.

Okay, without knowing more details, I can't comment. But, you can consider throwing rocks to be assault--and depending on the size of the rocks and whether he was throwing them by hand or with some kind of device like a sling--it could be assault with a deadly weapon.

However issues like that are never cut and dried, and I think as a nation we jump to conclusions too quickly.

Agreed.
Live Long and Prosper

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"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

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mishapqueen
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3/3/2015 12:08:17 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/3/2015 12:02:40 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 3/3/2015 11:59:37 AM, mishapqueen wrote:
At 3/3/2015 11:53:24 AM, bsh1 wrote:
At 3/3/2015 11:52:23 AM, mishapqueen wrote:
At 3/2/2015 9:26:33 PM, bsh1 wrote:

Thoughts?

This is being discussed a lot in my area since we had a police shooting just a couple weeks ago.

Oh wow...And what are your thoughts on the topic?

I'm conflicted. I'm not terribly informed, but I think people jump to conclusions way too quickly. Police officers are people too, and therefore a mixed bag. Just because one is trigger happy, does not mean all are. If we make a policy that binds the police down based off one or two incidents, we could be risking our own safety.

I think that's fair. I esp. agree with the bolded part.
Yay! :D

The case in my area I believe was a trigger happy police incident from what I know. Basically a Mexican illegal immigrant kept throwing rocks at police until one day they shot him in the back and killed him.

Okay, without knowing more details, I can't comment. But, you can consider throwing rocks to be assault--and depending on the size of the rocks and whether he was throwing them by hand or with some kind of device like a sling--it could be assault with a deadly weapon.

True, but couldn't they have tasered him or something? My main issue is he was shot in the back. :/ that's the part that bugs me.
However issues like that are never cut and dried, and I think as a nation we jump to conclusions too quickly.

Agreed.
You cannot choose whether or not you will live by rules, but you can choose which rules you will live by. --Me

"I was wrong. Squirrels are objectively superior to bunnies in every conceivable dimension."
--Joey

"Silence is golden, duct tape is silver" --PetersSmith

Nunc aut Numquam
bsh1
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3/3/2015 12:09:58 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/3/2015 12:08:17 PM, mishapqueen wrote:
At 3/3/2015 12:02:40 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 3/3/2015 11:59:37 AM, mishapqueen wrote:
The case in my area I believe was a trigger happy police incident from what I know. Basically a Mexican illegal immigrant kept throwing rocks at police until one day they shot him in the back and killed him.

Okay, without knowing more details, I can't comment. But, you can consider throwing rocks to be assault--and depending on the size of the rocks and whether he was throwing them by hand or with some kind of device like a sling--it could be assault with a deadly weapon.

True, but couldn't they have tasered him or something? My main issue is he was shot in the back. :/ that's the part that bugs me.

That does seem like genuine excessive force (namely, because he was shot in the back). But, one thing to keep in mind is that a lot of police officers don't carry tasers.
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"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

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mishapqueen
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3/3/2015 12:14:58 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/3/2015 12:09:58 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 3/3/2015 12:08:17 PM, mishapqueen wrote:
At 3/3/2015 12:02:40 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 3/3/2015 11:59:37 AM, mishapqueen wrote:
The case in my area I believe was a trigger happy police incident from what I know. Basically a Mexican illegal immigrant kept throwing rocks at police until one day they shot him in the back and killed him.

Okay, without knowing more details, I can't comment. But, you can consider throwing rocks to be assault--and depending on the size of the rocks and whether he was throwing them by hand or with some kind of device like a sling--it could be assault with a deadly weapon.

True, but couldn't they have tasered him or something? My main issue is he was shot in the back. :/ that's the part that bugs me.

That does seem like genuine excessive force (namely, because he was shot in the back). But, one thing to keep in mind is that a lot of police officers don't carry tasers.

Hmm. That's interesting. I didn't know it. It's going through the courts right now, and Mexico is a little ticked because of it too. Some see it as discrimination. There were protests for days and they even ended up block in one of our bridges.
You cannot choose whether or not you will live by rules, but you can choose which rules you will live by. --Me

"I was wrong. Squirrels are objectively superior to bunnies in every conceivable dimension."
--Joey

"Silence is golden, duct tape is silver" --PetersSmith

Nunc aut Numquam
bsh1
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3/3/2015 12:17:53 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/3/2015 12:14:58 PM, mishapqueen wrote:
At 3/3/2015 12:09:58 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 3/3/2015 12:08:17 PM, mishapqueen wrote:
At 3/3/2015 12:02:40 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 3/3/2015 11:59:37 AM, mishapqueen wrote:
The case in my area I believe was a trigger happy police incident from what I know. Basically a Mexican illegal immigrant kept throwing rocks at police until one day they shot him in the back and killed him.

Okay, without knowing more details, I can't comment. But, you can consider throwing rocks to be assault--and depending on the size of the rocks and whether he was throwing them by hand or with some kind of device like a sling--it could be assault with a deadly weapon.

True, but couldn't they have tasered him or something? My main issue is he was shot in the back. :/ that's the part that bugs me.

That does seem like genuine excessive force (namely, because he was shot in the back). But, one thing to keep in mind is that a lot of police officers don't carry tasers.

Hmm. That's interesting. I didn't know it. It's going through the courts right now, and Mexico is a little ticked because of it too. Some see it as discrimination. There were protests for days and they even ended up block in one of our bridges.

I can imagine there are a lot of questions surrounding it. I am not sure whether it was discrimination--not all excessive force against minorities is discrimination, though that is usually how it is perceived. But, without more info, I can't really say, and it wouldn't be fair of me to comment except in the most generic way.
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"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

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mishapqueen
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3/3/2015 12:21:44 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/3/2015 12:17:53 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 3/3/2015 12:14:58 PM, mishapqueen wrote:
At 3/3/2015 12:09:58 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 3/3/2015 12:08:17 PM, mishapqueen wrote:
At 3/3/2015 12:02:40 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 3/3/2015 11:59:37 AM, mishapqueen wrote:
The case in my area I believe was a trigger happy police incident from what I know. Basically a Mexican illegal immigrant kept throwing rocks at police until one day they shot him in the back and killed him.

Okay, without knowing more details, I can't comment. But, you can consider throwing rocks to be assault--and depending on the size of the rocks and whether he was throwing them by hand or with some kind of device like a sling--it could be assault with a deadly weapon.

True, but couldn't they have tasered him or something? My main issue is he was shot in the back. :/ that's the part that bugs me.

That does seem like genuine excessive force (namely, because he was shot in the back). But, one thing to keep in mind is that a lot of police officers don't carry tasers.

Hmm. That's interesting. I didn't know it. It's going through the courts right now, and Mexico is a little ticked because of it too. Some see it as discrimination. There were protests for days and they even ended up block in one of our bridges.

I can imagine there are a lot of questions surrounding it. I am not sure whether it was discrimination--not all excessive force against minorities is discrimination, though that is usually how it is perceived. But, without more info, I can't really say, and it wouldn't be fair of me to comment except in the most generic way.

Same here. The issue is there are a ton of illegal immigrants from Mexico and migrant workers in my area, and there is a lot of discrimination against them here. It's pretty sad. And people view this as one more incident.
You cannot choose whether or not you will live by rules, but you can choose which rules you will live by. --Me

"I was wrong. Squirrels are objectively superior to bunnies in every conceivable dimension."
--Joey

"Silence is golden, duct tape is silver" --PetersSmith

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bsh1
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3/3/2015 12:40:44 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/3/2015 12:21:44 PM, mishapqueen wrote:
At 3/3/2015 12:17:53 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 3/3/2015 12:14:58 PM, mishapqueen wrote:
Hmm. That's interesting. I didn't know it. It's going through the courts right now, and Mexico is a little ticked because of it too. Some see it as discrimination. There were protests for days and they even ended up block in one of our bridges.

I can imagine there are a lot of questions surrounding it. I am not sure whether it was discrimination--not all excessive force against minorities is discrimination, though that is usually how it is perceived. But, without more info, I can't really say, and it wouldn't be fair of me to comment except in the most generic way.

Same here. The issue is there are a ton of illegal immigrants from Mexico and migrant workers in my area, and there is a lot of discrimination against them here. It's pretty sad. And people view this as one more incident.

I can imagine how people can see this as just one more incident, and that kind of discrimination is sad and deplorable, you're right.
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mishapqueen
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3/3/2015 12:43:47 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/3/2015 12:40:44 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 3/3/2015 12:21:44 PM, mishapqueen wrote:
At 3/3/2015 12:17:53 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 3/3/2015 12:14:58 PM, mishapqueen wrote:
Hmm. That's interesting. I didn't know it. It's going through the courts right now, and Mexico is a little ticked because of it too. Some see it as discrimination. There were protests for days and they even ended up block in one of our bridges.

I can imagine there are a lot of questions surrounding it. I am not sure whether it was discrimination--not all excessive force against minorities is discrimination, though that is usually how it is perceived. But, without more info, I can't really say, and it wouldn't be fair of me to comment except in the most generic way.

Same here. The issue is there are a ton of illegal immigrants from Mexico and migrant workers in my area, and there is a lot of discrimination against them here. It's pretty sad. And people view this as one more incident.

I can imagine how people can see this as just one more incident, and that kind of discrimination is sad and deplorable, you're right.

Yeah... It's a pretty big issue, due to the number of Hispanics here. The incident also occurred in a part of town where there are A LOT of them, so it made everyone quite upset. Usually things are pretty quiet around here, but apparently we made national news with it.
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bsh1
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3/3/2015 12:44:12 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/3/2015 12:43:47 PM, mishapqueen wrote:
At 3/3/2015 12:40:44 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 3/3/2015 12:21:44 PM, mishapqueen wrote:
At 3/3/2015 12:17:53 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 3/3/2015 12:14:58 PM, mishapqueen wrote:
Hmm. That's interesting. I didn't know it. It's going through the courts right now, and Mexico is a little ticked because of it too. Some see it as discrimination. There were protests for days and they even ended up block in one of our bridges.

I can imagine there are a lot of questions surrounding it. I am not sure whether it was discrimination--not all excessive force against minorities is discrimination, though that is usually how it is perceived. But, without more info, I can't really say, and it wouldn't be fair of me to comment except in the most generic way.

Same here. The issue is there are a ton of illegal immigrants from Mexico and migrant workers in my area, and there is a lot of discrimination against them here. It's pretty sad. And people view this as one more incident.

I can imagine how people can see this as just one more incident, and that kind of discrimination is sad and deplorable, you're right.

Yeah... It's a pretty big issue, due to the number of Hispanics here. The incident also occurred in a part of town where there are A LOT of them, so it made everyone quite upset. Usually things are pretty quiet around here, but apparently we made national news with it.

Oh wow...
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mishapqueen
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3/3/2015 12:47:31 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/3/2015 12:44:12 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 3/3/2015 12:43:47 PM, mishapqueen wrote:
At 3/3/2015 12:40:44 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 3/3/2015 12:21:44 PM, mishapqueen wrote:
At 3/3/2015 12:17:53 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 3/3/2015 12:14:58 PM, mishapqueen wrote:
Hmm. That's interesting. I didn't know it. It's going through the courts right now, and Mexico is a little ticked because of it too. Some see it as discrimination. There were protests for days and they even ended up block in one of our bridges.

I can imagine there are a lot of questions surrounding it. I am not sure whether it was discrimination--not all excessive force against minorities is discrimination, though that is usually how it is perceived. But, without more info, I can't really say, and it wouldn't be fair of me to comment except in the most generic way.

Same here. The issue is there are a ton of illegal immigrants from Mexico and migrant workers in my area, and there is a lot of discrimination against them here. It's pretty sad. And people view this as one more incident.

I can imagine how people can see this as just one more incident, and that kind of discrimination is sad and deplorable, you're right.

Yeah... It's a pretty big issue, due to the number of Hispanics here. The incident also occurred in a part of town where there are A LOT of them, so it made everyone quite upset. Usually things are pretty quiet around here, but apparently we made national news with it.

Oh wow...

Yeah. I have a friend who lives just a block away from where it happened, so he's had to deal with all the protests. Thankfully I'm far enough away that I haven't had to get involved in any way.
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bsh1
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3/3/2015 12:50:33 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/3/2015 12:47:31 PM, mishapqueen wrote:
At 3/3/2015 12:44:12 PM, bsh1 wrote:

Oh wow...

Yeah. I have a friend who lives just a block away from where it happened, so he's had to deal with all the protests. Thankfully I'm far enough away that I haven't had to get involved in any way.

Wow...that's nuts.
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mishapqueen
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3/3/2015 12:53:45 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/3/2015 12:50:33 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 3/3/2015 12:47:31 PM, mishapqueen wrote:
At 3/3/2015 12:44:12 PM, bsh1 wrote:

Oh wow...

Yeah. I have a friend who lives just a block away from where it happened, so he's had to deal with all the protests. Thankfully I'm far enough away that I haven't had to get involved in any way.

Wow...that's nuts.

We have three major bridges crossing a large river in our area, and the protestors actually blocked the one closest to the site and marched across it and marched back, demanding action be taken against the police. It went on for days. Many protestors were Hispanic, not surprisingly.
You cannot choose whether or not you will live by rules, but you can choose which rules you will live by. --Me

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Khaos_Mage
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3/3/2015 12:54:26 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/2/2015 9:26:33 PM, bsh1 wrote:
Let me start out by saying I do NOT in any sense condone the use of deadly force against an unarmed suspect who can be subdued through non-lethal methods. However, I think that we sometimes have a tendency to be a bit over-harsh on the police that, for the most part, serve honorably and effectively in our communities.

Police are naturally trigger-happy, perhaps more so in recent years. But they are on the front lines every single day, putting their lives in danger. Despite their training--or, perhaps because of it--they are always alert, and that they know they are targets makes them more inclined to react aggressively and with full force when a perceived threat is encountered. Consider that 124 cops were shot dead in 2014, and policemen everywhere are acutely aware of that. [http://www.npr.org...]

In turn, due to America's recent threats over terrorism, police have become more militarized, which is only going to further amplify police fear for their safety and their willingness to react forcefully. "Federal cash--first to wage war on drugs, then on terror--has paid for much of the heavy weaponry used by SWAT teams. Between 2002 and 2011 the Department of Homeland Security disbursed $35 billion in grants to state and local police. Also, the Pentagon offers surplus military kit to police departments. According to Mr Balko, by 2005 it had provided such gear to more than 17,000 law-enforcement agencies." [http://www.economist.com...]

So, it is fair to say, IMO, that it is a combination of natural survival instincts and militarization that accounts for a lot of these incidents. I think we have to blame those factors more than, perhaps, the individual police officers sometimes. Even if you don't buy that, I think we are sometimes too quick to decide that the cops overused force due to latent or overt racism, rather than because of other factors at play.

Thoughts?

You fvcking racist.... (I notice you aren't called one, but, then again, this is a general defense, unlike mine usually are LOL)

I think people need to actually stop and think about things, be a bit more business minded, if you will. Police have a dangerous job, and things can go from bad to worse very quickly. As such, police are quick to use force to quickly defuse the situation. For example, take Eric Garner. While the death was tragic, and the force seemed overzealous, what is the alternative? Either less force (which is correct) or talk therapy. Now, less force is still force, which will still be viewed poorly, and talk therapy is a huge distraction - should we tie up three police officers for ten minutes, with their back turned to the public to focus on perp, to coax them into handcuffs? Frankly, it is lose-lose; it is either viewed as aggressive force, or it is dangerous for them. Obviously, they will choose the path that is safest for them.

Not sure if any of this made sense. :/

However, some of the police initiatives are inherently dangerous, especially the war on drugs. I'd wager drug use/dealers/suspects are involved in the majority of the shootings, and the vast majority is drug related and/or prejudice (like the suspect being stupid because he doesn't like police). But, I could be wrong.
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SamStevens
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3/3/2015 12:56:32 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/2/2015 9:26:33 PM, bsh1 wrote:
Let me start out by saying I do NOT in any sense condone the use of deadly force against an unarmed suspect who can be subdued through non-lethal methods. However, I think that we sometimes have a tendency to be a bit over-harsh on the police that, for the most part, serve honorably and effectively in our communities.

Police are naturally trigger-happy, perhaps more so in recent years. But they are on the front lines every single day, putting their lives in danger. Despite their training--or, perhaps because of it--they are always alert, and that they know they are targets makes them more inclined to react aggressively and with full force when a perceived threat is encountered. Consider that 124 cops were shot dead in 2014, and policemen everywhere are acutely aware of that. [http://www.npr.org...]

In turn, due to America's recent threats over terrorism, police have become more militarized, which is only going to further amplify police fear for their safety and their willingness to react forcefully. "Federal cash--first to wage war on drugs, then on terror--has paid for much of the heavy weaponry used by SWAT teams. Between 2002 and 2011 the Department of Homeland Security disbursed $35 billion in grants to state and local police. Also, the Pentagon offers surplus military kit to police departments. According to Mr Balko, by 2005 it had provided such gear to more than 17,000 law-enforcement agencies." [http://www.economist.com...]

So, it is fair to say, IMO, that it is a combination of natural survival instincts and militarization that accounts for a lot of these incidents. I think we have to blame those factors more than, perhaps, the individual police officers sometimes. Even if you don't buy that, I think we are sometimes too quick to decide that the cops overused force due to latent or overt racism, rather than because of other factors at play.

Thoughts?

In my opinion, the people shot by police officers are at fault. If they were doing what they were supposed to do as well as being a rational citizen( not fighting with police, etc), no one would get shot.

For example, the following video shows body camera footage of a police officer shooting an armed suspect.
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Death responded: "Because you are a beautiful lie, and I am the painful truth."
bsh1
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3/3/2015 12:57:47 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/3/2015 12:54:26 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 3/2/2015 9:26:33 PM, bsh1 wrote:
Thoughts?

You fvcking racist.... (I notice you aren't called one, but, then again, this is a general defense, unlike mine usually are LOL)

Lol...

I think people need to actually stop and think about things, be a bit more business minded, if you will. Police have a dangerous job, and things can go from bad to worse very quickly. As such, police are quick to use force to quickly defuse the situation. For example, take Eric Garner. While the death was tragic, and the force seemed overzealous, what is the alternative? Either less force (which is correct) or talk therapy. Now, less force is still force, which will still be viewed poorly, and talk therapy is a huge distraction - should we tie up three police officers for ten minutes, with their back turned to the public to focus on perp, to coax them into handcuffs? Frankly, it is lose-lose; it is either viewed as aggressive force, or it is dangerous for them. Obviously, they will choose the path that is safest for them.

I agree with the bolded passages. I disagree, however, that the force employed by the police in the Eric Garner case was justified. That kind of force, using an illicit move, to subdue a man who later shouted out the he couldn't breath seems to me to be a clear example of excess.

Not sure if any of this made sense. :/

It did.
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bsh1
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3/3/2015 1:00:33 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/3/2015 12:56:32 PM, SamStevens wrote:
At 3/2/2015 9:26:33 PM, bsh1 wrote:
Thoughts?

In my opinion, the people shot by police officers are at fault. If they were doing what they were supposed to do as well as being a rational citizen( not fighting with police, etc), no one would get shot.

I am not necessarily sure I agree with that. Sure, if someone is resisting the police, the police can use some force. But if they can subdue that suspect without using a weapon, why should they use a weapon?

I don't think we should blame the suspect, but I don't think it's always fair to blame the police. We should consider the complex variety of factors at play in these encounters.

For example, the following video shows body camera footage of a police officer shooting an armed suspect.

Sure, that is an armed suspect. But it gets murkier when the suspect is unarmed.
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Khaos_Mage
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3/3/2015 1:10:13 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/3/2015 12:57:47 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 3/3/2015 12:54:26 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
I think people need to actually stop and think about things, be a bit more business minded, if you will. Police have a dangerous job, and things can go from bad to worse very quickly. As such, police are quick to use force to quickly defuse the situation. For example, take Eric Garner. While the death was tragic, and the force seemed overzealous, what is the alternative? Either less force (which is correct) or talk therapy. Now, less force is still force, which will still be viewed poorly, and talk therapy is a huge distraction - should we tie up three police officers for ten minutes, with their back turned to the public to focus on perp, to coax them into handcuffs? Frankly, it is lose-lose; it is either viewed as aggressive force, or it is dangerous for them. Obviously, they will choose the path that is safest for them.

I agree with the bolded passages. I disagree, however, that the force employed by the police in the Eric Garner case was justified. That kind of force, using an illicit move, to subdue a man who later shouted out the he couldn't breath seems to me to be a clear example of excess.

I didn't say it was (here). I just used it as an example.

Which is why I brought it up. Some force needed to be used, regardless if you believe it was excessive. Tazing him would be viewed as excessive by some, even forcing his arms behind his back would likely be complained about (he wasn't even resisting!!!). To be honest, arresting him at all is likely to upset people.
My work here is, finally, done.
bsh1
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3/3/2015 1:14:00 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/3/2015 1:10:13 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 3/3/2015 12:57:47 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 3/3/2015 12:54:26 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
I think people need to actually stop and think about things, be a bit more business minded, if you will. Police have a dangerous job, and things can go from bad to worse very quickly. As such, police are quick to use force to quickly defuse the situation. For example, take Eric Garner. While the death was tragic, and the force seemed overzealous, what is the alternative? Either less force (which is correct) or talk therapy. Now, less force is still force, which will still be viewed poorly, and talk therapy is a huge distraction - should we tie up three police officers for ten minutes, with their back turned to the public to focus on perp, to coax them into handcuffs? Frankly, it is lose-lose; it is either viewed as aggressive force, or it is dangerous for them. Obviously, they will choose the path that is safest for them.

I agree with the bolded passages. I disagree, however, that the force employed by the police in the Eric Garner case was justified. That kind of force, using an illicit move, to subdue a man who later shouted out the he couldn't breath seems to me to be a clear example of excess.

I didn't say it was (here). I just used it as an example.

Which is why I brought it up. Some force needed to be used, regardless if you believe it was excessive. Tazing him would be viewed as excessive by some, even forcing his arms behind his back would likely be complained about (he wasn't even resisting!!!). To be honest, arresting him at all is likely to upset people.

I agree with the bold. No comment on the rest.
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SamStevens
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3/3/2015 1:43:43 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/3/2015 1:00:33 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 3/3/2015 12:56:32 PM, SamStevens wrote:
At 3/2/2015 9:26:33 PM, bsh1 wrote:
Thoughts?

In my opinion, the people shot by police officers are at fault. If they were doing what they were supposed to do as well as being a rational citizen( not fighting with police, etc), no one would get shot.

I am not necessarily sure I agree with that. Sure, if someone is resisting the police, the police can use some force. But if they can subdue that suspect without using a weapon, why should they use a weapon?

So should a cop use a stun gun or a night stick on an aggressive suspect?

I don't think we should blame the suspect, but I don't think it's always fair to blame the police. We should consider the complex variety of factors at play in these encounters.

That is true. Sometimes the police assault the person for no reason or use excessive force.


For example, the following video shows body camera footage of a police officer shooting an armed suspect.

Sure, that is an armed suspect. But it gets murkier when the suspect is unarmed.
"This is the true horror of religion. It allows perfectly decent and sane people to believe by the billions, what only lunatics could believe on their own." Sam Harris
Life asked Death "Why do people love me but hate you?"
Death responded: "Because you are a beautiful lie, and I am the painful truth."