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Justice?

comoncents
Posts: 5,647
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7/17/2010 10:19:39 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
Aristotle describes justice as the most important aspect of politics.
When defining politics existence, one would be remorse to exclude justice as the reasoning behind the entire concept.

What is Justice?
(Explain what it means to you. Some think that it is everyone getting what they deserve; others think that it is being fair to ever class of people; a few would say that it is making sure the lower class is taken care of at any expense. Define it, as you will.)
lovelife
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7/17/2010 11:20:09 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/17/2010 10:19:39 AM, comoncents wrote:

What is Justice?
(Explain what it means to you. Some think that it is everyone getting what they deserve; others think that it is being fair to ever class of people; a few would say that it is making sure the lower class is taken care of at any expense. Define it, as you will.)

I think justice is making sure everyone gets what they desearve, nothing more or less. If you work hard you get more money than if you do like nothing, if you kill you get killed. Basically Karma I guess
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annhasle
Posts: 6,657
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7/17/2010 1:50:21 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
"Justice, although it resembles a mirage, is really concerned with internal rather than external activity - with the true self and its business."

Justice is "establishing the parts of the soul so that they dominate and are dominated by each other according to nature, injustice so that they rule and are ruled contrary to nature."

"A just man tries to get the better of his unlike, but not of his like; and unjust man tries to get the better of both."

"Justice is practiced only under compulsion, as someone else's good - not our own."

"The unjust man enjoys life better than the just"


These are my favorite quotes about Justice that Plato wrote in his book, "The Republic". I agree with his thought that justice is the work of improving lives around you, and not the impulsive acts to better our own lives. I think that is why an unjust man has a more entertaining life since he is not concerned with the lives of others; only his own. I would strongly recommend to everyone "The Republic".
I'm not back. This idiot just upset me which made me stop lurking.
FREEDO
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7/17/2010 1:53:29 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
I disagree that justice the main point.

I think pleasure is.

Justice is a means of obtaining that.
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annhasle
Posts: 6,657
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7/17/2010 1:59:37 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/17/2010 1:53:29 PM, FREEDO wrote:
I disagree that justice the main point.

I think pleasure is.

Justice is a means of obtaining that.

But if Justice was the means to obtain happiness in disregard to those around you, wouldn't that be selfish and not justice? It must be a balance to be justice; an objective view on rewards and punishments so that no one is slighted by disregard to their achievements or excessively punished/rewarded for their actions.
I'm not back. This idiot just upset me which made me stop lurking.
Rob1Billion
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7/17/2010 2:04:41 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
I am a firm believer that the ends do not justify the means. I am obviously not among similar company on DDO, since the vast majority of you all do not discuss the means and instead focus on the ends. For me, therefore, justice has more to do with inputs (i.e., intentions) than outputs (e.g., people getting what they deserve). Just intentions will demand just results and if you only consider the results you will often run into erroneous conclusions about your actions and furthermore will be unable to fashion any meaningfully accurate principles to guide your actions.
Master P is the end result of capitalism.
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
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7/17/2010 3:34:51 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
The consequences of an action accruing to the actor.

It's a means to the end of proliferating more good consequences :P
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
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7/17/2010 4:11:34 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/17/2010 1:53:29 PM, FREEDO wrote:
I disagree that justice the main point.

I think pleasure is.

Justice is a means of obtaining that.

You're a hedonist?
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J.Kenyon
Posts: 4,194
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7/17/2010 4:27:05 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/17/2010 4:11:34 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 7/17/2010 1:53:29 PM, FREEDO wrote:
I disagree that justice the main point.

I think pleasure is.

Justice is a means of obtaining that.

You're a hedonist?

Ya he is. That's an idiotic way to go about it.

Have you ever heard of Nozick's utility monster? Suppose Sam can derive 10 units of happiness from 10 units of wealth. Bob, on the other hand, can derive 10 units of happiness from just 1 unit of wealth, or 100 units of happiness from 10.

Supposing each has done a fairly equal amount of work and both earned 10 units of wealth. If you add together the total happiness that each person will achieve, you get 110 units of happiness. However, if all of Sam's wealth is taken and given to Bob, their total happiness would amount to 200. Therefore, in your view that pleasure ought to be maximized at the expense of justice, Sam ought to be deprived of all his wealth and it should be given to Bob instead.
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
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7/17/2010 4:40:43 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/17/2010 4:27:05 PM, J.Kenyon wrote:
At 7/17/2010 4:11:34 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 7/17/2010 1:53:29 PM, FREEDO wrote:
I disagree that justice the main point.

I think pleasure is.

Justice is a means of obtaining that.

You're a hedonist?

Ya he is. That's an idiotic way to go about it.

Have you ever heard of Nozick's utility monster? Suppose Sam can derive 10 units of happiness from 10 units of wealth. Bob, on the other hand, can derive 10 units of happiness from just 1 unit of wealth, or 100 units of happiness from 10.

Supposing each has done a fairly equal amount of work and both earned 10 units of wealth. If you add together the total happiness that each person will achieve, you get 110 units of happiness. However, if all of Sam's wealth is taken and given to Bob, their total happiness would amount to 200. Therefore, in your view that pleasure ought to be maximized at the expense of justice, Sam ought to be deprived of all his wealth and it should be given to Bob instead.

100/10.

You need to debate more.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
Reasoning
Posts: 4,456
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7/17/2010 4:49:09 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/17/2010 4:27:05 PM, J.Kenyon wrote:
Ya he is. That's an idiotic way to go about it.

Have you ever heard of Nozick's utility monster? Suppose Sam can derive 10 units of happiness from 10 units of wealth. Bob, on the other hand, can derive 10 units of happiness from just 1 unit of wealth, or 100 units of happiness from 10.

Supposing each has done a fairly equal amount of work and both earned 10 units of wealth. If you add together the total happiness that each person will achieve, you get 110 units of happiness. However, if all of Sam's wealth is taken and given to Bob, their total happiness would amount to 200. Therefore, in your view that pleasure ought to be maximized at the expense of justice, Sam ought to be deprived of all his wealth and it should be given to Bob instead.

Nice use of interpersonal comparison of utility.
"What we really ought to ask the liberal, before we even begin addressing his agenda, is this: In what kind of society would he be a conservative?" - Joseph Sobran
Xer
Posts: 7,776
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7/17/2010 5:01:56 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/17/2010 4:49:09 PM, Reasoning wrote:
At 7/17/2010 4:27:05 PM, J.Kenyon wrote:
Ya he is. That's an idiotic way to go about it.

Have you ever heard of Nozick's utility monster? Suppose Sam can derive 10 units of happiness from 10 units of wealth. Bob, on the other hand, can derive 10 units of happiness from just 1 unit of wealth, or 100 units of happiness from 10.

Supposing each has done a fairly equal amount of work and both earned 10 units of wealth. If you add together the total happiness that each person will achieve, you get 110 units of happiness. However, if all of Sam's wealth is taken and given to Bob, their total happiness would amount to 200. Therefore, in your view that pleasure ought to be maximized at the expense of justice, Sam ought to be deprived of all his wealth and it should be given to Bob instead.

Nice use of interpersonal comparison of utility.

Yeah, that was pretty awesome.
comoncents
Posts: 5,647
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7/17/2010 7:04:23 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/17/2010 5:01:56 PM, Nags wrote:
At 7/17/2010 4:49:09 PM, Reasoning wrote:
At 7/17/2010 4:27:05 PM, J.Kenyon wrote:
Ya he is. That's an idiotic way to go about it.

Have you ever heard of Nozick's utility monster? Suppose Sam can derive 10 units of happiness from 10 units of wealth. Bob, on the other hand, can derive 10 units of happiness from just 1 unit of wealth, or 100 units of happiness from 10.

Supposing each has done a fairly equal amount of work and both earned 10 units of wealth. If you add together the total happiness that each person will achieve, you get 110 units of happiness. However, if all of Sam's wealth is taken and given to Bob, their total happiness would amount to 200. Therefore, in your view that pleasure ought to be maximized at the expense of justice, Sam ought to be deprived of all his wealth and it should be given to Bob instead.

Nice use of interpersonal comparison of utility.

Yeah, that was pretty awesome.

I liked it.
comoncents
Posts: 5,647
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7/17/2010 7:10:04 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/17/2010 1:50:21 PM, annhasle wrote:
"Justice, although it resembles a mirage, is really concerned with internal rather than external activity - with the true self and its business."

Justice is "establishing the parts of the soul so that they dominate and are dominated by each other according to nature, injustice so that they rule and are ruled contrary to nature."

"A just man tries to get the better of his unlike, but not of his like; and unjust man tries to get the better of both."

"Justice is practiced only under compulsion, as someone else's good - not our own."

"The unjust man enjoys life better than the just"


These are my favorite quotes about Justice that Plato wrote in his book, "The Republic". I agree with his thought that justice is the work of improving lives around you, and not the impulsive acts to better our own lives. I think that is why an unjust man has a more entertaining life since he is not concerned with the lives of others; only his own. I would strongly recommend to everyone "The Republic".

In "The Republic", Plato goes back and forth on what Justice is. If you read all of the books that make up "The Republic" than you would see when comparing them.

Socrates does a great job, and Plato does a good job of transcribing Socrates' words on justice but I do not get exactly what you get out of it.
comoncents
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7/17/2010 7:13:10 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/17/2010 1:53:29 PM, FREEDO wrote:
I disagree that justice the main point.

I think pleasure is.

Justice is a means of obtaining that.

I think that this maybe beyond your prospective.
comoncents
Posts: 5,647
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7/17/2010 7:15:50 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/17/2010 2:04:41 PM, Rob1Billion wrote:
I am a firm believer that the ends do not justify the means. I am obviously not among similar company on DDO, since the vast majority of you all do not discuss the means and instead focus on the ends. For me, therefore, justice has more to do with inputs (i.e., intentions) than outputs (e.g., people getting what they deserve). Just intentions will demand just results and if you only consider the results you will often run into erroneous conclusions about your actions and furthermore will be unable to fashion any meaningfully accurate principles to guide your actions.

Well put. I can see where you get your political etching through your words on Justice.