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The Ferguson racism report is kinda weak...

16kadams
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3/14/2015 10:52:34 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Here is the report:
http://www.justice.gov...

Their statistical evidence is bad...

85% of those pulled over are African American and over 90% of those with citations are also African American. So? That is not enough to prove racism. lol.

On an national average African Americans are more likely to die in car accidents. This means--for whatever reason--as a group they are probably more likely to break traffic laws (which leads to their deaths in car accidents). Are car accidents racist? The fact is, although there could be some discrimination, we cannot prove that assertion statistically from what the report is telling us.

See also: http://nypost.com...
https://www.youtube.com...
https://rekonomics.wordpress.com...
"A trend is a trend, but the question is, will it bend? Will it alter its course through some unforeseen force and come to a premature end?" -- Alec Cairncross
Varrack
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3/14/2015 10:59:54 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/14/2015 10:52:34 AM, 16kadams wrote:
Here is the report:
http://www.justice.gov...

Their statistical evidence is bad...

85% of those pulled over are African American and over 90% of those with citations are also African American. So? That is not enough to prove racism. lol.

On an national average African Americans are more likely to die in car accidents. This means--for whatever reason--as a group they are probably more likely to break traffic laws (which leads to their deaths in car accidents). Are car accidents racist? The fact is, although there could be some discrimination, we cannot prove that assertion statistically from what the report is telling us.

See also: http://nypost.com...

And men are pulled over 42% more often than women. I guess the police are sexist too.
YYW
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3/14/2015 11:44:34 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/14/2015 10:52:34 AM, 16kadams wrote:
Here is the report:
http://www.justice.gov...

Their statistical evidence is bad...

85% of those pulled over are African American and over 90% of those with citations are also African American. So? That is not enough to prove racism. lol.

On an national average African Americans are more likely to die in car accidents. This means--for whatever reason--as a group they are probably more likely to break traffic laws (which leads to their deaths in car accidents). Are car accidents racist? The fact is, although there could be some discrimination, we cannot prove that assertion statistically from what the report is telling us.

See also: http://nypost.com...

I would encourage you to read the entire report.... or even if you don't read the whole report, read the first ten pages or so. Because really, if you don't think that's sufficient evidence of systematic racial bias (not to mention deplorable police practices), then we might need to have a conversation that.
Tsar of DDO
Greyparrot
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3/14/2015 11:48:14 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Ferguson is a black-majority town. If its blacks were pulled over at the same rate as blacks nationally, they"d account for 87.5 percent of traffic stops.

In other words, the numbers actually suggest that Ferguson police may be slightly less likely to pull over black drivers than are their national counterparts. They certainly don"t show that Ferguson is a hotbed of racism.

ALL LIES! KILL THE WHITEY!
popculturepooka
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3/14/2015 1:13:05 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/14/2015 10:52:34 AM, 16kadams wrote:
Here is the report:
http://www.justice.gov...

Their statistical evidence is bad...

85% of those pulled over are African American and over 90% of those with citations are also African American. So? That is not enough to prove racism. lol.

On an national average African Americans are more likely to die in car accidents. This means--for whatever reason--as a group they are probably more likely to break traffic laws (which leads to their deaths in car accidents). Are car accidents racist? The fact is, although there could be some discrimination, we cannot prove that assertion statistically from what the report is telling us.

See also: http://nypost.com...

Your reasoning is really bad.

Please explain away all the arrests and the like for highly discretionary offenses. Don't worry, I'll wait.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
YYW
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3/14/2015 1:14:30 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/14/2015 1:13:05 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 3/14/2015 10:52:34 AM, 16kadams wrote:
Here is the report:
http://www.justice.gov...

Their statistical evidence is bad...

85% of those pulled over are African American and over 90% of those with citations are also African American. So? That is not enough to prove racism. lol.

On an national average African Americans are more likely to die in car accidents. This means--for whatever reason--as a group they are probably more likely to break traffic laws (which leads to their deaths in car accidents). Are car accidents racist? The fact is, although there could be some discrimination, we cannot prove that assertion statistically from what the report is telling us.

See also: http://nypost.com...

Your reasoning is really bad.

Please explain away all the arrests and the like for highly discretionary offenses. Don't worry, I'll wait.

x2
Tsar of DDO
16kadams
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3/14/2015 1:29:14 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/14/2015 1:13:05 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 3/14/2015 10:52:34 AM, 16kadams wrote:
Here is the report:
http://www.justice.gov...

Their statistical evidence is bad...

85% of those pulled over are African American and over 90% of those with citations are also African American. So? That is not enough to prove racism. lol.

On an national average African Americans are more likely to die in car accidents. This means--for whatever reason--as a group they are probably more likely to break traffic laws (which leads to their deaths in car accidents). Are car accidents racist? The fact is, although there could be some discrimination, we cannot prove that assertion statistically from what the report is telling us.

See also: http://nypost.com...

Your reasoning is really bad.

Please explain away all the arrests and the like for highly discretionary offenses. Don't worry, I'll wait.

lol. The findings--except one--are unconvincing

- the 85% pull over and citation statistic doesn't prove jack sh!t. Anyone who knows how statistics works will tell you it is possible that they simply break more traffic laws. Men--especially teens--get pulled over more but that isn't discrimination, we just drive terribly. African Americans die percentage wise more in car accidents than white people, suggesting on aggregate they are more likely to break traffic laws. Weak evidence.

- they are victims of excessive force. Again proves nothing. They may react more violently--for whatever reason--towards the police. This leads to them being killed or injured by the police.

- arrests, lol. Same issues as above mate.

- there is one good piece of evidence in the report: searches. Blacks are searched more but also less likely to have contraband found. I suppose any other criminal behavior (or reaction) towards the cop may spur more searches, but the DOJ claims they control for that (but not on the rest of the findings, lol). I haven't read their control methodology, but if true, it may serve to undermine my case--and I'm open to that. This is the only good evidence they produce.

- mostly white cops? Lol. White people may simply want to be cops more, as black people hate cops from real/perceived discrimination and don't wanna be there. Oh the emails? They stopped in 2011 and we don't know how common it was. Maybe two cops, and it stopped. Why? We don't know. They may have been told to stop or been fired, both of which are anti-racism approaches.

Other than that one datapoint, the study is bad.
https://www.youtube.com...
https://rekonomics.wordpress.com...
"A trend is a trend, but the question is, will it bend? Will it alter its course through some unforeseen force and come to a premature end?" -- Alec Cairncross
popculturepooka
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3/14/2015 2:02:44 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/14/2015 1:29:14 PM, 16kadams wrote:
At 3/14/2015 1:13:05 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 3/14/2015 10:52:34 AM, 16kadams wrote:
Here is the report:
http://www.justice.gov...

Their statistical evidence is bad...

85% of those pulled over are African American and over 90% of those with citations are also African American. So? That is not enough to prove racism. lol.

On an national average African Americans are more likely to die in car accidents. This means--for whatever reason--as a group they are probably more likely to break traffic laws (which leads to their deaths in car accidents). Are car accidents racist? The fact is, although there could be some discrimination, we cannot prove that assertion statistically from what the report is telling us.

See also: http://nypost.com...

Your reasoning is really bad.

Please explain away all the arrests and the like for highly discretionary offenses. Don't worry, I'll wait.

lol. The findings--except one--are unconvincing

- the 85% pull over and citation statistic doesn't prove jack sh!t. Anyone who knows how statistics works will tell you it is possible that they simply break more traffic laws. Men--especially teens--get pulled over more but that isn't discrimination, we just drive terribly. African Americans die percentage wise more in car accidents than white people, suggesting on aggregate they are more likely to break traffic laws. Weak evidence.

- they are victims of excessive force. Again proves nothing. They may react more violently--for whatever reason--towards the police. This leads to them being killed or injured by the police.


...except for the fact the report found that officers were quick to escalate the situation with victims who they *perceived* as not complying. This goes along hand in hand with many reports such as:

"We spoke with one African-American man who, in August 2014, had an argument in his apartment to which FPD officers responded, and was immediately pulled out of the apartment by force. After telling the officer, "you don't have a reason to lock me up," he claims the officer responded: "N*****, I can find something to lock you up on." When the man responded, "good luck with that," the officer slammed his face into the wall, and after the man fell to the floor, the officer said, "don't pass out motherf****r because I'm not carrying you to my car.":

- arrests, lol. Same issues as above mate.

- there is one good piece of evidence in the report: searches. Blacks are searched more but also less likely to have contraband found. I suppose any other criminal behavior (or reaction) towards the cop may spur more searches, but the DOJ claims they control for that (but not on the rest of the findings, lol). I haven't read their control methodology, but if true, it may serve to undermine my case--and I'm open to that. This is the only good evidence they produce.

- mostly white cops? Lol. White people may simply want to be cops more, as black people hate cops from real/perceived discrimination and don't wanna be there.

Fun fact: black people often want to be cops to police their own communities more fairly.

Oh the emails? They stopped in 2011 and we don't know how common it was. Maybe two cops, and it stopped. Why? We don't know. They may have been told to stop or been fired, both of which are anti-racism approaches.


Except for the fact as the DOj reports that there was no evidence that anyone ever asked the senders to refrain from or that anyone was disciplined because of these emails.

Other than that one datapoint, the study is bad.

Something makes me think you didn't actually read the whole report. Seriously.

I'll get to the rest of you points but, lol. You're grasping at straws.

We have citizens saying that police were, for example, arresting them for walking while black. Oh, wait. Now we look at the report and it says that over 95 % of arrest victims for "manner of walking" were black.

94% of "failure to comply" were black. Oh, wait. We have stories like this:

"In one instance from May 2014, for example, a man rushed to the scene of a car accident involving his girlfriend, who was badly injured and bleeding profusely when he arrived. He approached and tried to calm her. When officers arrived they treated him rudely, according to the man, telling him to move away from his girlfriend, which he did not want to do. They then immediately proceeded to handcuff and arrest him, which, officers assert, he resisted. EMS and other officers were not on the scene during this arrest, so the accident victim remained unattended, bleeding from her injuries, while officers were arresting the boyfriend. Officers charged the man with five municipal code violations (Resisting Arrest, Disorderly Conduct, Assault on an Officer, Obstructing Government Operations, and Failure to 82 Comply) and had his vehicle towed and impounded."

In a town of 21,000 almost 16,000 (overwhelmingly black of curse) had arrest warrants. We're the seriously supposed to believe THAT many black people in Ferguson are criminals?

All the police dog bite victims were black, including a boy who was waiting for his friend at house with no weapon.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
Fly
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3/14/2015 4:10:11 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/14/2015 10:52:34 AM, 16kadams wrote:
Here is the report:
http://www.justice.gov...

Their statistical evidence is bad...

85% of those pulled over are African American and over 90% of those with citations are also African American. So? That is not enough to prove racism. lol.

On an national average African Americans are more likely to die in car accidents. This means--for whatever reason--as a group they are probably more likely to break traffic laws (which leads to their deaths in car accidents). Are car accidents racist? The fact is, although there could be some discrimination, we cannot prove that assertion statistically from what the report is telling us.

See also: http://nypost.com...

Funny-- you link to the entire DOJ report first, but your points only seem to reiterate the opinion piece from the NY post, which you link at the end. It is a 105 page report, and you refer to half of one paragraph to debunk the entire report. Doesn't this sound a bit absurd to you?

Tell you what-- let's start from a point of most likely agreement: racism aside, what is your critique of the report's assessment that many of the FPD practices are unconstitutional?
"You don't have a right to be a jerk."
--Religion Forum's hypocrite extraordinaire serving up lulz
Spectre2
Posts: 34
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3/14/2015 4:17:04 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/14/2015 10:52:34 AM, 16kadams wrote:
Here is the report:
http://www.justice.gov...

Their statistical evidence is bad...

85% of those pulled over are African American and over 90% of those with citations are also African American. So? That is not enough to prove racism. lol.

On an national average African Americans are more likely to die in car accidents. This means--for whatever reason--as a group they are probably more likely to break traffic laws (which leads to their deaths in car accidents). Are car accidents racist? The fact is, although there could be some discrimination, we cannot prove that assertion statistically from what the report is telling us.

See also: http://nypost.com...

wait for dilara
Dilara
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3/14/2015 4:35:11 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
And it's a false outrage. Michael brown didn't have his hands up when he was shot. He was charging a cop as 7 black witnesses say and as ballistic tests. And acording to the fbi 400 white people are killed by black people a year and 180 black people are killed by white people a year. I didn't see any riots when 14 year old kelli olaughlin was stabbed to death by a black man. I guess she's the wrong color. There are 320,000 black on white violent crimes a year and 60,000 white on black violent crimes a year. A black person is 25 times more likely to commit a violent crime against a white person than a white person is to commit a violent crime against a black person. And also according to the to doj 93% of the 7000 murderers of blacks a year are by other blacks. Only 100 are by white cops. It seems like black people are more likely to be killed by a black criminal like mike brown than some white cop.
popculturepooka
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3/14/2015 4:45:22 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/14/2015 4:35:11 PM, Dilara wrote:
And it's a false outrage. Michael brown didn't have his hands up when he was shot. He was charging a cop as 7 black witnesses say and as ballistic tests. And acording to the fbi 400 white people are killed by black people a year and 180 black people are killed by white people a year. I didn't see any riots when 14 year old kelli olaughlin was stabbed to death by a black man. I guess she's the wrong color. There are 320,000 black on white violent crimes a year and 60,000 white on black violent crimes a year. A black person is 25 times more likely to commit a violent crime against a white person than a white person is to commit a violent crime against a black person. And also according to the to doj 93% of the 7000 murderers of blacks a year are by other blacks. Only 100 are by white cops. It seems like black people are more likely to be killed by a black criminal like mike brown than some white cop.

Nice deflection. So we are talking about clear evidence of institutional racism in ferguson and you go off and talk about matters that don't pertain to the subject.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
Dilara
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3/14/2015 8:57:03 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/14/2015 4:45:22 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 3/14/2015 4:35:11 PM, Dilara wrote:
And it's a false outrage. Michael brown didn't have his hands up when he was shot. He was charging a cop as 7 black witnesses say and as ballistic tests. And acording to the fbi 400 white people are killed by black people a year and 180 black people are killed by white people a year. I didn't see any riots when 14 year old kelli olaughlin was stabbed to death by a black man. I guess she's the wrong color. There are 320,000 black on white violent crimes a year and 60,000 white on black violent crimes a year. A black person is 25 times more likely to commit a violent crime against a white person than a white person is to commit a violent crime against a black person. And also according to the to doj 93% of the 7000 murderers of blacks a year are by other blacks. Only 100 are by white cops. It seems like black people are more likely to be killed by a black criminal like mike brown than some white cop.

Nice deflection. So we are talking about clear evidence of institutional racism in ferguson and you go off and talk about matters that don't pertain to the subject.
Sad you got proven wrong? Absorb the facts I gave. They're fbi and DOJ supported. Black son white violent crimes a year 320,000. Black on white murders a year 400. White on black violent crimes a year 60,000. White on black murderers a year 180. 7000 black on black murders a year and 100 murders of blacks by cops. Police brutality is a problem but not as a big a problem as other forms of crime. And if the people of ferguson always act the way they did at the protests--over a false outrage--than no wonder they gey pulled over a lot. Two ferguson cops were shot the other day because they were cops. Not all ferguson residents are violent but the ones that are should be put in jail.
MyDinosaurHands
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3/14/2015 9:14:44 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Hate builds on hate. I imagine some of the institutional racism in the Ferguson police department is spawned from the fact that black people are more aggressive towards police. I imagine they are more aggressive because they think police unfairly target them. I imagine police do 'unfairly' target black people because they witness black people committing more crime, especially in a mostly black community like Ferguson.

Both sides have some fault. Both sides can be empathized with. At least one group needs to break the vicious cycle. That's the only way we can heal.
Guess what I used to type this..

Careful! Don't laugh too hard.
Varrack
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3/14/2015 9:30:40 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/14/2015 9:14:44 PM, MyDinosaurHands wrote:
Hate builds on hate. I imagine some of the institutional racism in the Ferguson police department is spawned from the fact that black people are more aggressive towards police. I imagine they are more aggressive because they think police unfairly target them. I imagine police do 'unfairly' target black people because they witness black people committing more crime, especially in a mostly black community like Ferguson.

Both sides have some fault. Both sides can be empathized with. At least one group needs to break the vicious cycle. That's the only way we can heal.

I sort of agree, but the police cannot "break the cycle" by simply letting blacks commit more crime.
MyDinosaurHands
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3/14/2015 9:40:17 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/14/2015 9:30:40 PM, Varrack wrote:
At 3/14/2015 9:14:44 PM, MyDinosaurHands wrote:
Hate builds on hate. I imagine some of the institutional racism in the Ferguson police department is spawned from the fact that black people are more aggressive towards police. I imagine they are more aggressive because they think police unfairly target them. I imagine police do 'unfairly' target black people because they witness black people committing more crime, especially in a mostly black community like Ferguson.

Both sides have some fault. Both sides can be empathized with. At least one group needs to break the vicious cycle. That's the only way we can heal.

I sort of agree, but the police cannot "break the cycle" by simply letting blacks commit more crime.

Well I think there's lots of areas to improve in without neglecting their duties. The report did say that the police had a tendency to needlessly escalate confrontations. That story about the man getting his head smashed on the pavement for no good reason is a good place to start. What did that achieve, besides giving black people another support for their hate of cops?

Also, having the higher search rate while also finding less contraband is a problem. It's not even just a race problem, it's also a tactics issue. You're searching black people's things more (thus alienating them more) without any good reason to. Both sides could agree to a change there.

And going beyond just police, courts have been found to give black people tougher sentences than white people in exact same situations, systematically. We could work on spreading awareness of this, so judges have the opportunity to ask themselves if they're handing out an abnormally strict sentence simply because the defendant is black.
Guess what I used to type this..

Careful! Don't laugh too hard.
popculturepooka
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3/14/2015 11:26:54 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/14/2015 8:57:03 PM, Dilara wrote:
At 3/14/2015 4:45:22 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 3/14/2015 4:35:11 PM, Dilara wrote:
And it's a false outrage. Michael brown didn't have his hands up when he was shot. He was charging a cop as 7 black witnesses say and as ballistic tests. And acording to the fbi 400 white people are killed by black people a year and 180 black people are killed by white people a year. I didn't see any riots when 14 year old kelli olaughlin was stabbed to death by a black man. I guess she's the wrong color. There are 320,000 black on white violent crimes a year and 60,000 white on black violent crimes a year. A black person is 25 times more likely to commit a violent crime against a white person than a white person is to commit a violent crime against a black person. And also according to the to doj 93% of the 7000 murderers of blacks a year are by other blacks. Only 100 are by white cops. It seems like black people are more likely to be killed by a black criminal like mike brown than some white cop.

Nice deflection. So we are talking about clear evidence of institutional racism in ferguson and you go off and talk about matters that don't pertain to the subject.
Sad you got proven wrong?

Proven wrong on what? You went on irrelevant tangent.

Absorb the facts I gave. They're fbi and DOJ supported. Black son white violent crimes a year 320,000. Black on white murders a year 400. White on black violent crimes a year 60,000. White on black murderers a year 180. 7000 black on black murders a year and 100 murders of blacks by cops. Police brutality is a problem but not as a big a problem as other forms of crime.

Pointing to "black on black" crime is really nice deflection because

1. Black people who kill black people aren't likely get off when caught (in fact they often get a harsher sentence as those DOJ and FBI statistics show).
2. Police are.

I realize that this point of "black on black" crime gets trotted out everytime black people rightly complain about institutional racism being manifested in the form of police brutality and corrupt court systems but it's nothing more than a deflection.

And if the people of ferguson always act the way they did at the protests--over a false outrage--than no wonder they gey pulled over a lot.

Lol, your arguments are terrible.

1. Only a very small minority of the "people in ferguson" acted in any inappropriate way at the protests - the vast majority of them were peaceful protests. You did see the pictures sand hear the stories about those residents of Ferguson who defended community stores and buildings, right?
2. Thare were was nothing false about that outrage. Thaty were legitimately outraged.
3. That you use a very small minority of people to generalize a the populace of a whole city is very telling.

Two ferguson cops were shot the other day because they were cops. Not all ferguson residents are violent but the ones that are should be put in jail.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
YYW
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3/14/2015 11:38:06 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
I really appreciate the fact that PCP is taking the time to explain how stuff is to people here. I'm also reasonably sure he's doing a better job than I would, so I'll leave him to it.
Tsar of DDO
Dilara
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3/15/2015 9:56:37 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/14/2015 11:26:54 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 3/14/2015 8:57:03 PM, Dilara wrote:
At 3/14/2015 4:45:22 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 3/14/2015 4:35:11 PM, Dilara wrote:
And it's a false outrage. Michael brown didn't have his hands up when he was shot. He was charging a cop as 7 black witnesses say and as ballistic tests. And acording to the fbi 400 white people are killed by black people a year and 180 black people are killed by white people a year. I didn't see any riots when 14 year old kelli olaughlin was stabbed to death by a black man. I guess she's the wrong color. There are 320,000 black on white violent crimes a year and 60,000 white on black violent crimes a year. A black person is 25 times more likely to commit a violent crime against a white person than a white person is to commit a violent crime against a black person. And also according to the to doj 93% of the 7000 murderers of blacks a year are by other blacks. Only 100 are by white cops. It seems like black people are more likely to be killed by a black criminal like mike brown than some white cop.

Nice deflection. So we are talking about clear evidence of institutional racism in ferguson and you go off and talk about matters that don't pertain to the subject.
Sad you got proven wrong?

Proven wrong on what? You went on irrelevant tangent.

Absorb the facts I gave. They're fbi and DOJ supported. Black son white violent crimes a year 320,000. Black on white murders a year 400. White on black violent crimes a year 60,000. White on black murderers a year 180. 7000 black on black murders a year and 100 murders of blacks by cops. Police brutality is a problem but not as a big a problem as other forms of crime.

Pointing to "black on black" crime is really nice deflection because

1. Black people who kill black people aren't likely get off when caught (in fact they often get a harsher sentence as those DOJ and FBI statistics show).
2. Police are.

I realize that this point of "black on black" crime gets trotted out everytime black people rightly complain about institutional racism being manifested in the form of police brutality and corrupt court systems but it's nothing more than a deflection.

And if the people of ferguson always act the way they did at the protests--over a false outrage--than no wonder they gey pulled over a lot.

Lol, your arguments are terrible.


1. Only a very small minority of the "people in ferguson" acted in any inappropriate way at the protests - the vast majority of them were peaceful protests. You did see the pictures sand hear the stories about those residents of Ferguson who defended community stores and buildings, right?
2. Thare were was nothing false about that outrage. Thaty were legitimately outraged.
3. That you use a very small minority of people to generalize a the populace of a whole city is very telling.

Two ferguson cops were shot the other day because they were cops. Not all ferguson residents are violent but the ones that are should be put in jail.
I know many of the ferguson residents came together to defend their stores. I even donated some money to the women whose cake store was destroyed by violent thugs and to the lady whose boutique was destroyed. Mike brown first robbed a store. He than tried to grab Wilson's gun as his blood was found on Wilson's car, gun and uniform. He hit Wilson. Gun res was found on mikes shirt. He than ran away and charged Wilson. Forensic tests show he didn't have his hands up. The bullet entered the top of the arm so that is physically impossible. According to 7 black witnesses he charged Wilson. There is also a trail of blood supporting this claim. 6 witnesses claim he had his hands up. The DOJs report found that these witness's weren't credible and found that "he very likely did not have his hands up". Those 6 witness's told different stories when ever new evidence came out. Some had heard that claim of mike browns hands being up from other people and had not seen or heard anything. Dorion Jonson told us that brown was shot in the back. Them 3 autopsies showed he was shot in the front and Jonson changes his story. Don't believe Jonson. He lied all ready and he participated in a robbery. Who do you believe? The liar thug or the cop who had no problems for 6 years. The only reason I can think of is because your racist against whites and want to promote a political agenda. Anyone who looks at the forensic evidence knows that Darren Wilson shot brown because he had to. Browns hands were not up in a surrender position. The 6 foot 3 300 pound man charged an armed cop. This is a false outrage. There is no reason to be outraged by This claim based on the forensic evidence.
Greyparrot
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3/15/2015 10:05:56 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
How can you not admit there is a significant level of confirmation bias in this report. That in no way excuses anything Furgy PD has done, but you don't fight fire with fire.

You'll end up with mobs ambushing police with drive by shootings.
Bennett91
Posts: 4,199
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3/15/2015 10:26:18 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/15/2015 10:05:56 AM, Greyparrot wrote:
How can you not admit there is a significant level of confirmation bias in this report. That in no way excuses anything Furgy PD has done, but you don't fight fire with fire.

You'll end up with mobs ambushing police with drive by shootings.

Yea and next thing you know the cop will have to up the anti! They'll begin making newer, better cops! ROBO COPS!
ButterCatX
Posts: 2,228
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3/15/2015 10:28:21 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
I am just going to say one little thing: Correlation does not prove causation.
I bet fanfics are already being posted on random blogs about us.-Vaarka

Butters preformed his duty to the town and died with honor, he helped us kill scum, so we know have to go and make sure his death wasn't in vain and win this game for him.-lannan13

All hail the great and mighty Butters, who died for our inactive cause.-Vaarka

fuckith offith, lol.-Ore(talking to me)

And guess what happened to FT? He got raped to death.-Xlav

You are so obviously town I love you man.-VOT
Khaos_Mage
Posts: 23,214
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3/15/2015 11:09:41 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/14/2015 11:26:54 PM, popculturepooka wrote:

Pointing to "black on black" crime is really nice deflection because
I disagree. I think it fuels the cycle.
If you believe that blacks are more likely to commit crimes, logically, they are more likely to be a threat to police, so logically, police are more heavy handed.
I am not 100% sold that these stats warrant that conclusion, but I am sure there are some that do. The issue, after all, is police tactics, and whether or not they are warranted.
Have you noticed that it is almost always men who are attacked/shot by police? Is that sexist, or because men are more likely to "put up a fight"?

1. Black people who kill black people aren't likely get off when caught (in fact they often get a harsher sentence as those DOJ and FBI statistics show).
This, too, is suspect to me.
I assume, and if I am wrong please source it since I am just assuming, that black suspects are more likely to have a public defender, which means their defense is automatically worse than a private attorney. Further, I assume black suspects are more likely to refuse a plea bargain, especially for murder or frame job, especially if it is gang related, and this would result in a longer sentence. I would be interested in plea deal stats, or if stats based on sentences are based on trials only.
If my assumption is true, this issue is not based on racism.
2. Police are.
When police are indicted, they are only found guilty about 33% of the time, period. I don't think it has to do with racism.
My work here is, finally, done.
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
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3/15/2015 3:46:42 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/15/2015 9:56:37 AM, Dilara wrote:
At 3/14/2015 11:26:54 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 3/14/2015 8:57:03 PM, Dilara wrote:
At 3/14/2015 4:45:22 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 3/14/2015 4:35:11 PM, Dilara wrote:
And it's a false outrage. Michael brown didn't have his hands up when he was shot. He was charging a cop as 7 black witnesses say and as ballistic tests. And acording to the fbi 400 white people are killed by black people a year and 180 black people are killed by white people a year. I didn't see any riots when 14 year old kelli olaughlin was stabbed to death by a black man. I guess she's the wrong color. There are 320,000 black on white violent crimes a year and 60,000 white on black violent crimes a year. A black person is 25 times more likely to commit a violent crime against a white person than a white person is to commit a violent crime against a black person. And also according to the to doj 93% of the 7000 murderers of blacks a year are by other blacks. Only 100 are by white cops. It seems like black people are more likely to be killed by a black criminal like mike brown than some white cop.

Nice deflection. So we are talking about clear evidence of institutional racism in ferguson and you go off and talk about matters that don't pertain to the subject.
Sad you got proven wrong?

Proven wrong on what? You went on irrelevant tangent.

Absorb the facts I gave. They're fbi and DOJ supported. Black son white violent crimes a year 320,000. Black on white murders a year 400. White on black violent crimes a year 60,000. White on black murderers a year 180. 7000 black on black murders a year and 100 murders of blacks by cops. Police brutality is a problem but not as a big a problem as other forms of crime.

Pointing to "black on black" crime is really nice deflection because

1. Black people who kill black people aren't likely get off when caught (in fact they often get a harsher sentence as those DOJ and FBI statistics show).
2. Police are.

I realize that this point of "black on black" crime gets trotted out everytime black people rightly complain about institutional racism being manifested in the form of police brutality and corrupt court systems but it's nothing more than a deflection.

And if the people of ferguson always act the way they did at the protests--over a false outrage--than no wonder they gey pulled over a lot.

Lol, your arguments are terrible.


1. Only a very small minority of the "people in ferguson" acted in any inappropriate way at the protests - the vast majority of them were peaceful protests. You did see the pictures sand hear the stories about those residents of Ferguson who defended community stores and buildings, right?
2. Thare were was nothing false about that outrage. Thaty were legitimately outraged.
3. That you use a very small minority of people to generalize a the populace of a whole city is very telling.

Two ferguson cops were shot the other day because they were cops. Not all ferguson residents are violent but the ones that are should be put in jail.
I know many of the ferguson residents came together to defend their stores. I even donated some money to the women whose cake store was destroyed by violent thugs and to the lady whose boutique was destroyed. Mike brown first robbed a store. He than tried to grab Wilson's gun as his blood was found on Wilson's car, gun and uniform. He hit Wilson. Gun res was found on mikes shirt. He than ran away and charged Wilson. Forensic tests show he didn't have his hands up. The bullet entered the top of the arm so that is physically impossible. According to 7 black witnesses he charged Wilson. There is also a trail of blood supporting this claim. 6 witnesses claim he had his hands up. The DOJs report found that these witness's weren't credible and found that "he very likely did not have his hands up". Those 6 witness's told different stories when ever new evidence came out. Some had heard that claim of mike browns hands being up from other people and had not seen or heard anything. Dorion Jonson told us that brown was shot in the back. Them 3 autopsies showed he was shot in the front and Jonson changes his story. Don't believe Jonson. He lied all ready and he participated in a robbery. Who do you believe? The liar thug or the cop who had no problems for 6 years. The only reason I can think of is because your racist against whites and want to promote a political agenda. Anyone who looks at the forensic evidence knows that Darren Wilson shot brown because he had to. Browns hands were not up in a surrender position. The 6 foot 3 300 pound man charged an armed cop. This is a false outrage. There is no reason to be outraged by This claim based on the forensic evidence.

Even if you were right (which you aren't) can you PLEASE - for the love of God - explain to me what this has to do with the DOJ report and institutional racism on FPD's part? Please explain to me how going on a diatribe against Brown and his supporters somehow annuls the findings of this report. Stop deflecting, please.

Also your claim about the person shooting the cops just because they were cops is highly doubtful. Even Bob McCulloch (who is quite possibly the worst "prosecutor" in the country) admitted as much.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com...
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
Dilara
Posts: 661
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3/15/2015 4:42:52 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/15/2015 3:46:42 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 3/15/2015 9:56:37 AM, Dilara wrote:
At 3/14/2015 11:26:54 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 3/14/2015 8:57:03 PM, Dilara wrote:
At 3/14/2015 4:45:22 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 3/14/2015 4:35:11 PM, Dilara wrote:
And it's a false outrage. Michael brown didn't have his hands up when he was shot. He was charging a cop as 7 black witnesses say and as ballistic tests. And acording to the fbi 400 white people are killed by black people a year and 180 black people are killed by white people a year. I didn't see any riots when 14 year old kelli olaughlin was stabbed to death by a black man. I guess she's the wrong color. There are 320,000 black on white violent crimes a year and 60,000 white on black violent crimes a year. A black person is 25 times more likely to commit a violent crime against a white person than a white person is to commit a violent crime against a black person. And also according to the to doj 93% of the 7000 murderers of blacks a year are by other blacks. Only 100 are by white cops. It seems like black people are more likely to be killed by a black criminal like mike brown than some white cop.

Nice deflection. So we are talking about clear evidence of institutional racism in ferguson and you go off and talk about matters that don't pertain to the subject.
Sad you got proven wrong?

Proven wrong on what? You went on irrelevant tangent.

Absorb the facts I gave. They're fbi and DOJ supported. Black son white violent crimes a year 320,000. Black on white murders a year 400. White on black violent crimes a year 60,000. White on black murderers a year 180. 7000 black on black murders a year and 100 murders of blacks by cops. Police brutality is a problem but not as a big a problem as other forms of crime.

Pointing to "black on black" crime is really nice deflection because

1. Black people who kill black people aren't likely get off when caught (in fact they often get a harsher sentence as those DOJ and FBI statistics show).
2. Police are.

I realize that this point of "black on black" crime gets trotted out everytime black people rightly complain about institutional racism being manifested in the form of police brutality and corrupt court systems but it's nothing more than a deflection.

And if the people of ferguson always act the way they did at the protests--over a false outrage--than no wonder they gey pulled over a lot.

Lol, your arguments are terrible.


1. Only a very small minority of the "people in ferguson" acted in any inappropriate way at the protests - the vast majority of them were peaceful protests. You did see the pictures sand hear the stories about those residents of Ferguson who defended community stores and buildings, right?
2. Thare were was nothing false about that outrage. Thaty were legitimately outraged.
3. That you use a very small minority of people to generalize a the populace of a whole city is very telling.

Two ferguson cops were shot the other day because they were cops. Not all ferguson residents are violent but the ones that are should be put in jail.
I know many of the ferguson residents came together to defend their stores. I even donated some money to the women whose cake store was destroyed by violent thugs and to the lady whose boutique was destroyed. Mike brown first robbed a store. He than tried to grab Wilson's gun as his blood was found on Wilson's car, gun and uniform. He hit Wilson. Gun res was found on mikes shirt. He than ran away and charged Wilson. Forensic tests show he didn't have his hands up. The bullet entered the top of the arm so that is physically impossible. According to 7 black witnesses he charged Wilson. There is also a trail of blood supporting this claim. 6 witnesses claim he had his hands up. The DOJs report found that these witness's weren't credible and found that "he very likely did not have his hands up". Those 6 witness's told different stories when ever new evidence came out. Some had heard that claim of mike browns hands being up from other people and had not seen or heard anything. Dorion Jonson told us that brown was shot in the back. Them 3 autopsies showed he was shot in the front and Jonson changes his story. Don't believe Jonson. He lied all ready and he participated in a robbery. Who do you believe? The liar thug or the cop who had no problems for 6 years. The only reason I can think of is because your racist against whites and want to promote a political agenda. Anyone who looks at the forensic evidence knows that Darren Wilson shot brown because he had to. Browns hands were not up in a surrender position. The 6 foot 3 300 pound man charged an armed cop. This is a false outrage. There is no reason to be outraged by This claim based on the forensic evidence.

Even if you were right (which you aren't) can you PLEASE - for the love of God - explain to me what this has to do with the DOJ report and institutional racism on FPD's part? Please explain to me how going on a diatribe against Brown and his supporters somehow annuls the findings of this report. Stop deflecting, please.

Also your claim about the person shooting the cops just because they were cops is highly doubtful. Even Bob McCulloch (who is quite possibly the worst "prosecutor" in the country) admitted as much.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com...
Just like the cops in NYC these cops were attacked. Ambushed as holder said. I have you forensic evidence showing that brown did not have his hands up when he was shot and that he was charging Wilson--after assaulting him and trying to take his gun. If your upset about facts than you have no place talking about this case. Anyone who protested over the ferguson week d was lied to, delusional, in denial Or an idiot. The DOJ report days that brown likely didn't have his hands uo she he was shot and that the witnesses who said he did were not credible. More witness say he didn't have his hands up. All of those brave black witness's are anonomys because people who have been deceive by lies like your self would harm them if you knew their identity and make their lives hell. Look at the repot is you don't believe me instead of denying facts .
popculturepooka
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3/15/2015 6:54:03 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/15/2015 4:42:52 PM, Dilara wrote:

Just like the cops in NYC these cops were attacked. Ambushed as holder said. I have you forensic evidence showing that brown did not have his hands up when he was shot and that he was charging Wilson--after assaulting him and trying to take his gun. If your upset about facts than you have no place talking about this case. Anyone who protested over the ferguson week d was lied to, delusional, in denial Or an idiot. The DOJ report days that brown likely didn't have his hands uo she he was shot and that the witnesses who said he did were not credible. More witness say he didn't have his hands up. All of those brave black witness's are anonomys because people who have been deceive by lies like your self would harm them if you knew their identity and make their lives hell. Look at the repot is you don't believe me instead of denying facts .

There's no use talking to you. You clearly won't stop deflecting. You clearly don't want to to talk about the actual subject at hand. I'm done. SMH
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
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3/15/2015 7:01:51 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/14/2015 1:29:14 PM, 16kadams wrote:

- they are victims of excessive force. Again proves nothing. They may react more violently--for whatever reason--towards the police. This leads to them being killed or injured by the police.


Back to this. Since you're so fond of conservative sites, this conservative succintly explains why your reasoning is so bad in this regard:

"Here is one area where there was quite a lot of information gathered by the DOJ based on their interviews with Ferguson residents about alleged uses of excessive force. I summarily disregarded all of this information. Based only on the information contained within the actual FPD "use of force" reports, the FPD habitually uses excessive force in blatant violation of the Constitution and their own policies. By the officers" own descriptions in the reports they turned in, they habitually used force that was excessive to the required situation, especially with respect to their use of canine attacks and taser attacks. Numerous instances even within these (quite possibly sanitized) reports indicate that officers used force in response to mere verbal belligerence or no force at all. Numerous inmates were, by officers" own admissions in these reports, tased while behind locked bars (in one instance, an inmate was tased in the back while he was behind closed and locked bars). Canines were used in situations where, by the officers" own descriptions, force was not necessary.

Further, by the words of the officers" own reports, both tasers and canines were used in situations where no force " or much more minimal " force was required
. In one instance, an officer was equipped with one of the "new" tasers that has a camera that is activated when it is in use and clearly showed the officer tazing a suspect who was offering no threat at all to the police officer in question. The clear impression, even from the Ferguson PD"s own evidence, is that the Ferguson PD for years has used force " especially tasers " in a retaliatory way towards anyone who commits "contempt of cop" rather than as a means to ensure the safety or the public or of officers. And as with almost all other aspects of the report, it was demonstrated that Ferguson"s black community was much more likely to have force " as well as inappropriate force " used against them. For instance, each and every single instance of canine attack ordered by the Ferguson PD was against a black suspect. Blacks were shown, even among the population of arrested citizens, to have tasers and other methods of physical force used against them with far greater frequency. More on that later."

http://www.redstate.com...
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
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3/15/2015 7:17:37 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/14/2015 1:29:14 PM, 16kadams wrote:


- the 85% pull over and citation statistic doesn't prove jack sh!t. Anyone who knows how statistics works will tell you it is possible that they simply break more traffic laws. Men--especially teens--get pulled over more but that isn't discrimination, we just drive terribly. African Americans die percentage wise more in car accidents than white people, suggesting on aggregate they are more likely to break traffic laws. Weak evidence.


Back to this:

Again, pretty bad.

I like how you neglected to mention that report specifically addressed this. While there is not that big of an issue when speeding is measured by, say, police using methods like radar and laser (methods that leave little up to interpretation) there is a HUGE issue (and that's where the racial bias comes in) when police use methods like just their visual observations in order to judge who's speeding or not.

Next.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
16kadams
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3/15/2015 7:19:29 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/15/2015 7:01:51 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 3/14/2015 1:29:14 PM, 16kadams wrote:

- they are victims of excessive force. Again proves nothing. They may react more violently--for whatever reason--towards the police. This leads to them being killed or injured by the police.


Back to this. Since you're so fond of conservative sites, this conservative succintly explains why your reasoning is so bad in this regard:

No, I am a fan of John Lott and peer-reviewed papers, but ok. I guess insulting me in a passive manner makes you feel good about yourself.


"Here is one area where there was quite a lot of information gathered by the DOJ based on their interviews with Ferguson residents about alleged uses of excessive force. I summarily disregarded all of this information. Based only on the information contained within the actual FPD "use of force" reports, the FPD habitually uses excessive force in blatant violation of the Constitution and their own policies. By the officers" own descriptions in the reports they turned in, they habitually used force that was excessive to the required situation, especially with respect to their use of canine attacks and taser attacks. Numerous instances even within these (quite possibly sanitized) reports indicate that officers used force in response to mere verbal belligerence or no force at all. Numerous inmates were, by officers" own admissions in these reports, tased while behind locked bars (in one instance, an inmate was tased in the back while he was behind closed and locked bars). Canines were used in situations where, by the officers" own descriptions, force was not necessary.

Further, by the words of the officers" own reports, both tasers and canines were used in situations where no force " or much more minimal " force was required
. In one instance, an officer was equipped with one of the "new" tasers that has a camera that is activated when it is in use and clearly showed the officer tazing a suspect who was offering no threat at all to the police officer in question. The clear impression, even from the Ferguson PD"s own evidence, is that the Ferguson PD for years has used force " especially tasers " in a retaliatory way towards anyone who commits "contempt of cop" rather than as a means to ensure the safety or the public or of officers. And as with almost all other aspects of the report, it was demonstrated that Ferguson"s black community was much more likely to have force " as well as inappropriate force " used against them. For instance, each and every single instance of canine attack ordered by the Ferguson PD was against a black suspect. Blacks were shown, even among the population of arrested citizens, to have tasers and other methods of physical force used against them with far greater frequency. More on that later."

http://www.redstate.com...

If you went through any police record you would find many cases of this occurring. The DOJ report offers no evidence, except the one where they controlled for race, that any discrimination was occurring. Now blacks probably were tased at a higher frequency. And unjustly so. But is that discrimination? Maybe, maybe not. Blacks may more likely not follow police orders which leads to an (unjust) escalation of violence. That calls for reform, but not necessarily on the basis of race.

I am totally open to the idea that racism is happening there, even though you seem to treat me like I am a moron who is close minded. I am a minority myself, so I have a vested interest in preventing discrimination. And there is probably some level of discrimination occurring, but the question is whether or not (1) The DOJ offers strong evidence (for the most part, no), and (2) if Ferguson should try to fix it's issues. The answer to (1) is no, and (2) is probably yes.

The DOJ did actually acquit the officer which started this madness. I agree with that. I think most people should, too, even assuming Ferguson's police are biased because that one specific instance seemed like a legitimate case of self-defense.
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"A trend is a trend, but the question is, will it bend? Will it alter its course through some unforeseen force and come to a premature end?" -- Alec Cairncross
Greyparrot
Posts: 14,239
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3/15/2015 8:51:03 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
The mob admitting they were probably wrong about Brown is unlikely, as they would fear the loss of credibility on legitimate racist incidents regarding Furgy PD.

It's all about fear.