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Evolving Views on the Middle East

YYW
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3/15/2015 4:40:02 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
I didn't used to be as cynical about the Middle East as I am, but when I wasn't cynical I was mostly ignorant. I see zero chance that democracy can function in Iraq or Afghanistan in this generation. Saudi Arabia is a miserable, godforsaken place who we only ally ourselves with because they have oil. Their lack of cultural progression beyond the norms of what might be considered ordinary in the seventh century is unforgivable. Iran, despite its nuclear intentions, has one of the least worst cultures in the middle east, but its political leaders are deranged and dangerous. Iraq has become the paragon of human depravity, and Syria is just as bad.

I was talking to a Syrian immigrant last summer, and she told me that Western media weren't truthfully reporting what Assad was doing. She said that Assad was gassing and killing people who had joined rebel militia forces who were killing Christians and moderate Muslims. It turns out, she was telling the truth. Jordan is one of the weapons capitals of the world, and it's like a trading junction for all the would-be mercenaries that would visit death and doom onto fledgling parts of the world.

Yemen is little more than a scab on human civilization. It's a wasp's nest of terrorism and Islamic barbarism. To illustrate the extent of Yemen's religious depravity: A 17 year old girl who was gang raped by a group of religious zealots was buried in the ground up the neck and stoned to death for "sexual immorality." This was "god's will" in accordance with "sharia law." Bullsh!t. The UAE employed North Korean slaves to construct its mighty buildings, although on balance they are less offensive than most of the rest of the middle east. Bahrain and Qatar follow suit. I can't think of a single positive thing to say about Oman. Turkey had the chance to be somewhat European, but its government seems determined to make that an impossibility. Azerbaijan shows some hope, as does Georgia (although I don't think they technically count as Middle Eastern).

The positives? Lebanon has excellent food. Israel is cool. The rest of the region... not a lot of hope there.

But because of globalization, we are all living in Israel: we are subject to religiously motivated violence that comes from a fallen part of the world. That is not to say that all muslims are bad people, but many of the Muslims in the middle east are. Whenever there's a glimmer of hope or change for the better, religious zealots tend to kill that person off (or, at least that's been the case in Pakistan -I recognize that Pakistan is South Asian and not middle eastern, but the point remains).

And now, ISIS is trying to recruit American teenagers and 20-somethings. It makes my skin crawl to think about it. ISIS has gone out of its way to recruit young men and women in Minnesota's Somali communities, as well as in a number of other places in the country. ISIS is aggressively trying to get young American muslims as well, because of the power and access that an American passport wields. It makes me sick to think about it. Now, Muslim-American parents who escaped the Middle East and came to the United States so that they and their kids could have a better future have to face the risk that their kids might be radicalized. It's heartbreaking.

In retrospect, I think it's reasonably clear that there is going to have to be a strong-man dictator that comes into power in Iraq to stabilize the region... and there are not even words to describe how bad that is. It's horrible, and it means that everything we sacrificed in Iraq was for nothing. The aftermath of this war has reasonably shown that Iraq is not another Vietnam; it's worse than Vietnam.

In America, we are a blessed people... because no matter how batshit insane the Republicans may be, or how ridiculous their politics have been, we are still responsible enough as a body politic to handle democracy; like, it can and does work here, and it works quite well, even on our worst day... and that will never happen in the Middle East. Islamic cultural norms, as they exist in the Middle East, will prevent that region from ever knowing what it is like to live like we do. They are not able to handle it; whether every human being has a right to be ruled by representative government or not, only a select few can handle the responsibility.
1harderthanyouthink
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3/15/2015 4:48:21 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/15/2015 4:40:02 PM, YYW wrote:
In retrospect, I think it's reasonably clear that there is going to have to be a strong-man dictator that comes into power in Iraq to stabilize the region...

Unfortunately we killed all of the males of the Hussein family.
"It's awfully considerate of you to think of me here,
And I'm much obliged to you for making it clear - that I'm not here."

-Syd Barrett

DDO Risk King
YYW
Posts: 36,239
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3/15/2015 4:48:53 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
And beyond that, The Arab Spring's failure is comprehensively and exclusively the fault of all those who were there that failed to see it through. Read: every Middle Easterner who failed to act to affect change is culpable for the state of affairs they face now. If there is a religious despot who claims a right to rule based on anything other than his or her being elected, then all middle easterners subject to that despotism have a right and responsibility to institute new government to secure the blessings of liberty for themselves and likewise they bear the duty of preserving that new political order. Democracy cannot be "imposed." It must be organically cultivated.

That is why I am more than willing to continue to open the doors of American universities to foreigners who want to learn to be like us, but I would submit that unless they have been sufficiently Americanized their degrees should be withheld. There should be an ethics exam at the end of every students undergraduate's university experience that failure of which would prevent their obtaining a degree. But until I see meaningful change in the middle east from within, I will continue to regard the region with the level of contempt that I've expressed above.

But, I'd also allow political refugees to come here if they want to live like us. I think that's fair.
YYW
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3/15/2015 4:49:18 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/15/2015 4:48:21 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 3/15/2015 4:40:02 PM, YYW wrote:
In retrospect, I think it's reasonably clear that there is going to have to be a strong-man dictator that comes into power in Iraq to stabilize the region...

Unfortunately we killed all of the males of the Hussein family.

I wouldn't give power back to the Hussein's.
1harderthanyouthink
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3/15/2015 4:49:53 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/15/2015 4:49:18 PM, YYW wrote:
At 3/15/2015 4:48:21 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 3/15/2015 4:40:02 PM, YYW wrote:
In retrospect, I think it's reasonably clear that there is going to have to be a strong-man dictator that comes into power in Iraq to stabilize the region...

Unfortunately we killed all of the males of the Hussein family.

I wouldn't give power back to the Hussein's.

It would nevertheless be impossible anyway.
"It's awfully considerate of you to think of me here,
And I'm much obliged to you for making it clear - that I'm not here."

-Syd Barrett

DDO Risk King
YYW
Posts: 36,239
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3/15/2015 4:51:46 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/15/2015 4:49:53 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 3/15/2015 4:49:18 PM, YYW wrote:
At 3/15/2015 4:48:21 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 3/15/2015 4:40:02 PM, YYW wrote:
In retrospect, I think it's reasonably clear that there is going to have to be a strong-man dictator that comes into power in Iraq to stabilize the region...

Unfortunately we killed all of the males of the Hussein family.

I wouldn't give power back to the Hussein's.

It would nevertheless be impossible anyway.

Yup.
Spectre2
Posts: 34
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3/15/2015 5:10:33 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/15/2015 4:40:02 PM, YYW wrote:
I didn't used to be as cynical about the Middle East as I am, but when I wasn't cynical I was mostly ignorant. I see zero chance that democracy can function in Iraq or Afghanistan in this generation. Saudi Arabia is a miserable, godforsaken place who we only ally ourselves with because they have oil. Their lack of cultural progression beyond the norms of what might be considered ordinary in the seventh century is unforgivable. Iran, despite its nuclear intentions, has one of the least worst cultures in the middle east, but its political leaders are deranged and dangerous. Iraq has become the paragon of human depravity, and Syria is just as bad.

I was talking to a Syrian immigrant last summer, and she told me that Western media weren't truthfully reporting what Assad was doing. She said that Assad was gassing and killing people who had joined rebel militia forces who were killing Christians and moderate Muslims. It turns out, she was telling the truth. Jordan is one of the weapons capitals of the world, and it's like a trading junction for all the would-be mercenaries that would visit death and doom onto fledgling parts of the world.

Yemen is little more than a scab on human civilization. It's a wasp's nest of terrorism and Islamic barbarism. To illustrate the extent of Yemen's religious depravity: A 17 year old girl who was gang raped by a group of religious zealots was buried in the ground up the neck and stoned to death for "sexual immorality." This was "god's will" in accordance with "sharia law." Bullsh!t. The UAE employed North Korean slaves to construct its mighty buildings, although on balance they are less offensive than most of the rest of the middle east. Bahrain and Qatar follow suit. I can't think of a single positive thing to say about Oman. Turkey had the chance to be somewhat European, but its government seems determined to make that an impossibility. Azerbaijan shows some hope, as does Georgia (although I don't think they technically count as Middle Eastern).

The positives? Lebanon has excellent food. Israel is cool. The rest of the region... not a lot of hope there.

But because of globalization, we are all living in Israel: we are subject to religiously motivated violence that comes from a fallen part of the world. That is not to say that all muslims are bad people, but many of the Muslims in the middle east are. Whenever there's a glimmer of hope or change for the better, religious zealots tend to kill that person off (or, at least that's been the case in Pakistan -I recognize that Pakistan is South Asian and not middle eastern, but the point remains).

And now, ISIS is trying to recruit American teenagers and 20-somethings. It makes my skin crawl to think about it. ISIS has gone out of its way to recruit young men and women in Minnesota's Somali communities, as well as in a number of other places in the country. ISIS is aggressively trying to get young American muslims as well, because of the power and access that an American passport wields. It makes me sick to think about it. Now, Muslim-American parents who escaped the Middle East and came to the United States so that they and their kids could have a better future have to face the risk that their kids might be radicalized. It's heartbreaking.

In retrospect, I think it's reasonably clear that there is going to have to be a strong-man dictator that comes into power in Iraq to stabilize the region... and there are not even words to describe how bad that is. It's horrible, and it means that everything we sacrificed in Iraq was for nothing. The aftermath of this war has reasonably shown that Iraq is not another Vietnam; it's worse than Vietnam.

In America, we are a blessed people... because no matter how batshit insane the Republicans may be, or how ridiculous their politics have been, we are still responsible enough as a body politic to handle democracy; like, it can and does work here, and it works quite well, even on our worst day... and that will never happen in the Middle East. Islamic cultural norms, as they exist in the Middle East, will prevent that region from ever knowing what it is like to live like we do. They are not able to handle it; whether every human being has a right to be ruled by representative government or not, only a select few can handle the responsibility.

You have finally taken the red pill. The middle east is a godforsaken hell hole that will never advance because of Islam. The day Islam is finally destroyed is the day, the whole world moves up
16kadams
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3/15/2015 5:26:00 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/15/2015 4:48:21 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 3/15/2015 4:40:02 PM, YYW wrote:
In retrospect, I think it's reasonably clear that there is going to have to be a strong-man dictator that comes into power in Iraq to stabilize the region...

Unfortunately we killed all of the males of the Hussein family.

My Dad said we should have used one of his Generals as dictator instead of trying a democracy. He has been saying that since we invaded them. Also, we shouldn't have disbanded their entire military. Maybe disarmed them temporarily, but disbanding them means we have to stay there and retrain them all...
https://www.youtube.com...
https://rekonomics.wordpress.com...
"A trend is a trend, but the question is, will it bend? Will it alter its course through some unforeseen force and come to a premature end?" -- Alec Cairncross
YamaVonKarma
Posts: 7,570
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3/15/2015 5:37:01 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
I reached a solution a while ago.

Yama's Solution:
- Give people a 30 hour window to get their sh*t together. They do not have to abandon Islam but do have to agree to a set of human decency laws.
- Crucify everyone who refuses. If they want violence, show them exactly how little their religion means before someone stronger than their God.
People who I've called as mafia DP1:
TUF, and YYW
YamaVonKarma
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3/15/2015 5:39:56 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
I mean. It takes me awhile before I get to that point.
Maybe my fellow Buddhists in Myanmar have the right idea.
I refuse to allow such an affront to order to exist.
People who I've called as mafia DP1:
TUF, and YYW
Spectre2
Posts: 34
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3/15/2015 5:45:02 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/15/2015 5:37:01 PM, YamaVonKarma wrote:
I reached a solution a while ago.

Yama's Solution:
- Give people a 30 hour window to get their sh*t together. They do not have to abandon Islam but do have to agree to a set of human decency laws.
- Crucify everyone who refuses. If they want violence, show them exactly how little their religion means before someone stronger than their God.

Islam and Human Decency don't go together.

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com...

Also what would crucifying people do? The best solution is to leave the middle east alone and become energy independent so we don't have to rely on them. No matter how many people you kill in the middle east, more will rise up to the take the terrorists place
YassineB
Posts: 1,003
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3/15/2015 5:47:51 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/15/2015 4:40:02 PM, YYW wrote:
I didn't used to be as cynical about the Middle East as I am, but when I wasn't cynical I was mostly ignorant. I see zero chance that democracy can function in Iraq or Afghanistan in this generation. Saudi Arabia is a miserable, godforsaken place who we only ally ourselves with because they have oil. Their lack of cultural progression beyond the norms of what might be considered ordinary in the seventh century is unforgivable. Iran, despite its nuclear intentions, has one of the least worst cultures in the middle east, but its political leaders are deranged and dangerous. Iraq has become the paragon of human depravity, and Syria is just as bad.

I was talking to a Syrian immigrant last summer, and she told me that Western media weren't truthfully reporting what Assad was doing. She said that Assad was gassing and killing people who had joined rebel militia forces who were killing Christians and moderate Muslims. It turns out, she was telling the truth. Jordan is one of the weapons capitals of the world, and it's like a trading junction for all the would-be mercenaries that would visit death and doom onto fledgling parts of the world.

Yemen is little more than a scab on human civilization. It's a wasp's nest of terrorism and Islamic barbarism. To illustrate the extent of Yemen's religious depravity: A 17 year old girl who was gang raped by a group of religious zealots was buried in the ground up the neck and stoned to death for "sexual immorality." This was "god's will" in accordance with "sharia law." Bullsh!t. The UAE employed North Korean slaves to construct its mighty buildings, although on balance they are less offensive than most of the rest of the middle east. Bahrain and Qatar follow suit. I can't think of a single positive thing to say about Oman. Turkey had the chance to be somewhat European, but its government seems determined to make that an impossibility. Azerbaijan shows some hope, as does Georgia (although I don't think they technically count as Middle Eastern).

The positives? Lebanon has excellent food. Israel is cool. The rest of the region... not a lot of hope there.

But because of globalization, we are all living in Israel: we are subject to religiously motivated violence that comes from a fallen part of the world. That is not to say that all muslims are bad people, but many of the Muslims in the middle east are. Whenever there's a glimmer of hope or change for the better, religious zealots tend to kill that person off (or, at least that's been the case in Pakistan -I recognize that Pakistan is South Asian and not middle eastern, but the point remains).

And now, ISIS is trying to recruit American teenagers and 20-somethings. It makes my skin crawl to think about it. ISIS has gone out of its way to recruit young men and women in Minnesota's Somali communities, as well as in a number of other places in the country. ISIS is aggressively trying to get young American muslims as well, because of the power and access that an American passport wields. It makes me sick to think about it. Now, Muslim-American parents who escaped the Middle East and came to the United States so that they and their kids could have a better future have to face the risk that their kids might be radicalized. It's heartbreaking.

In retrospect, I think it's reasonably clear that there is going to have to be a strong-man dictator that comes into power in Iraq to stabilize the region... and there are not even words to describe how bad that is. It's horrible, and it means that everything we sacrificed in Iraq was for nothing. The aftermath of this war has reasonably shown that Iraq is not another Vietnam; it's worse than Vietnam.

In America, we are a blessed people... because no matter how batshit insane the Republicans may be, or how ridiculous their politics have been, we are still responsible enough as a body politic to handle democracy; like, it can and does work here, and it works quite well, even on our worst day... and that will never happen in the Middle East. Islamic cultural norms, as they exist in the Middle East, will prevent that region from ever knowing what it is like to live like we do. They are not able to handle it; whether every human being has a right to be ruled by representative government or not, only a select few can handle the responsibility.

- The funny thing is, much of what you said is how the muslim world widely views the West. & by the way, you're still ignorant, & in the most unfathomable way, you just don't it.
Current Debates In Voting Period:

- The Qur'an We Have Today is Not What Muhammad Dictated Verbatim. Vs. @Envisage:
http://www.debate.org...

- Drawing Contest. Vs. @purpleduck:
http://www.debate.org...

"It is perfectly permissible to vote on sources without reading them" bluesteel.
YamaVonKarma
Posts: 7,570
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3/15/2015 5:48:05 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/15/2015 5:45:02 PM, Spectre2 wrote:
At 3/15/2015 5:37:01 PM, YamaVonKarma wrote:
I reached a solution a while ago.

Yama's Solution:
- Give people a 30 hour window to get their sh*t together. They do not have to abandon Islam but do have to agree to a set of human decency laws.
- Crucify everyone who refuses. If they want violence, show them exactly how little their religion means before someone stronger than their God.

Islam and Human Decency don't go together.

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com...

Also what would crucifying people do? The best solution is to leave the middle east alone and become energy independent so we don't have to rely on them. No matter how many people you kill in the middle east, more will rise up to the take the terrorists place

If you have to twist an arm, you may as well break it.
If you kill enough men, there will not be anyone left to fight.
People who I've called as mafia DP1:
TUF, and YYW
Spectre2
Posts: 34
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3/15/2015 5:48:49 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/15/2015 5:48:05 PM, YamaVonKarma wrote:
At 3/15/2015 5:45:02 PM, Spectre2 wrote:
At 3/15/2015 5:37:01 PM, YamaVonKarma wrote:
I reached a solution a while ago.

Yama's Solution:
- Give people a 30 hour window to get their sh*t together. They do not have to abandon Islam but do have to agree to a set of human decency laws.
- Crucify everyone who refuses. If they want violence, show them exactly how little their religion means before someone stronger than their God.

Islam and Human Decency don't go together.

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com...

Also what would crucifying people do? The best solution is to leave the middle east alone and become energy independent so we don't have to rely on them. No matter how many people you kill in the middle east, more will rise up to the take the terrorists place

If you have to twist an arm, you may as well break it.
If you kill enough men, there will not be anyone left to fight.

We don't have enough time or money to commit genocide
YamaVonKarma
Posts: 7,570
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3/15/2015 5:50:46 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/15/2015 5:48:49 PM, Spectre2 wrote:
At 3/15/2015 5:48:05 PM, YamaVonKarma wrote:
At 3/15/2015 5:45:02 PM, Spectre2 wrote:
At 3/15/2015 5:37:01 PM, YamaVonKarma wrote:
I reached a solution a while ago.

Yama's Solution:
- Give people a 30 hour window to get their sh*t together. They do not have to abandon Islam but do have to agree to a set of human decency laws.
- Crucify everyone who refuses. If they want violence, show them exactly how little their religion means before someone stronger than their God.

Islam and Human Decency don't go together.

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com...

Also what would crucifying people do? The best solution is to leave the middle east alone and become energy independent so we don't have to rely on them. No matter how many people you kill in the middle east, more will rise up to the take the terrorists place

If you have to twist an arm, you may as well break it.
If you kill enough men, there will not be anyone left to fight.

We don't have enough time or money to commit genocide

Don't call it Genocide. Call it preservation of Order.
Those who refuse such a simple deal aren't even worth being treated as humans.
People who I've called as mafia DP1:
TUF, and YYW
1harderthanyouthink
Posts: 13,098
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3/15/2015 5:53:48 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/15/2015 5:50:46 PM, YamaVonKarma wrote:
At 3/15/2015 5:48:49 PM, Spectre2 wrote:
At 3/15/2015 5:48:05 PM, YamaVonKarma wrote:
At 3/15/2015 5:45:02 PM, Spectre2 wrote:
At 3/15/2015 5:37:01 PM, YamaVonKarma wrote:
I reached a solution a while ago.

Yama's Solution:
- Give people a 30 hour window to get their sh*t together. They do not have to abandon Islam but do have to agree to a set of human decency laws.
- Crucify everyone who refuses. If they want violence, show them exactly how little their religion means before someone stronger than their God.

Islam and Human Decency don't go together.

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com...

Also what would crucifying people do? The best solution is to leave the middle east alone and become energy independent so we don't have to rely on them. No matter how many people you kill in the middle east, more will rise up to the take the terrorists place

If you have to twist an arm, you may as well break it.
If you kill enough men, there will not be anyone left to fight.

We don't have enough time or money to commit genocide

Don't call it Genocide. Call it preservation of Order.
Those who refuse such a simple deal aren't even worth being treated as humans.

Call it whatever you want, setting out to kill as many as possible to preserve "order" is morally questionable.
"It's awfully considerate of you to think of me here,
And I'm much obliged to you for making it clear - that I'm not here."

-Syd Barrett

DDO Risk King
YamaVonKarma
Posts: 7,570
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3/15/2015 5:57:01 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/15/2015 5:53:48 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 3/15/2015 5:50:46 PM, YamaVonKarma wrote:
At 3/15/2015 5:48:49 PM, Spectre2 wrote:
At 3/15/2015 5:48:05 PM, YamaVonKarma wrote:
At 3/15/2015 5:45:02 PM, Spectre2 wrote:
At 3/15/2015 5:37:01 PM, YamaVonKarma wrote:
I reached a solution a while ago.

Yama's Solution:
- Give people a 30 hour window to get their sh*t together. They do not have to abandon Islam but do have to agree to a set of human decency laws.
- Crucify everyone who refuses. If they want violence, show them exactly how little their religion means before someone stronger than their God.

Islam and Human Decency don't go together.

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com...

Also what would crucifying people do? The best solution is to leave the middle east alone and become energy independent so we don't have to rely on them. No matter how many people you kill in the middle east, more will rise up to the take the terrorists place

If you have to twist an arm, you may as well break it.
If you kill enough men, there will not be anyone left to fight.

We don't have enough time or money to commit genocide

Don't call it Genocide. Call it preservation of Order.
Those who refuse such a simple deal aren't even worth being treated as humans.

Call it whatever you want, setting out to kill as many as possible to preserve "order" is morally questionable.

I will gladly sin and kill as much as needed to create a better world.
People who I've called as mafia DP1:
TUF, and YYW
Spectre2
Posts: 34
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3/15/2015 5:57:47 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/15/2015 5:50:46 PM, YamaVonKarma wrote:
At 3/15/2015 5:48:49 PM, Spectre2 wrote:
At 3/15/2015 5:48:05 PM, YamaVonKarma wrote:
At 3/15/2015 5:45:02 PM, Spectre2 wrote:
At 3/15/2015 5:37:01 PM, YamaVonKarma wrote:
I reached a solution a while ago.

Yama's Solution:
- Give people a 30 hour window to get their sh*t together. They do not have to abandon Islam but do have to agree to a set of human decency laws.
- Crucify everyone who refuses. If they want violence, show them exactly how little their religion means before someone stronger than their God.

Islam and Human Decency don't go together.

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com...

Also what would crucifying people do? The best solution is to leave the middle east alone and become energy independent so we don't have to rely on them. No matter how many people you kill in the middle east, more will rise up to the take the terrorists place

If you have to twist an arm, you may as well break it.
If you kill enough men, there will not be anyone left to fight.

We don't have enough time or money to commit genocide

Don't call it Genocide. Call it preservation of Order.
Those who refuse such a simple deal aren't even worth being treated as humans.

This is the same reasoning that has caused all the problems in the middle east
YamaVonKarma
Posts: 7,570
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3/15/2015 6:00:33 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/15/2015 5:57:47 PM, Spectre2 wrote:
At 3/15/2015 5:50:46 PM, YamaVonKarma wrote:
At 3/15/2015 5:48:49 PM, Spectre2 wrote:
At 3/15/2015 5:48:05 PM, YamaVonKarma wrote:
At 3/15/2015 5:45:02 PM, Spectre2 wrote:
At 3/15/2015 5:37:01 PM, YamaVonKarma wrote:
I reached a solution a while ago.

Yama's Solution:
- Give people a 30 hour window to get their sh*t together. They do not have to abandon Islam but do have to agree to a set of human decency laws.
- Crucify everyone who refuses. If they want violence, show them exactly how little their religion means before someone stronger than their God.

Islam and Human Decency don't go together.

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com...

Also what would crucifying people do? The best solution is to leave the middle east alone and become energy independent so we don't have to rely on them. No matter how many people you kill in the middle east, more will rise up to the take the terrorists place

If you have to twist an arm, you may as well break it.
If you kill enough men, there will not be anyone left to fight.

We don't have enough time or money to commit genocide

Don't call it Genocide. Call it preservation of Order.
Those who refuse such a simple deal aren't even worth being treated as humans.

This is the same reasoning that has caused all the problems in the middle east

Maybe so.
Maybe I'm more of a monster than the people I want brought to justice.

Even so.
I accept that possibility with open arms.
Luckily for them, though. I wish to stick to upholding the Law in America.
People who I've called as mafia DP1:
TUF, and YYW
YYW
Posts: 36,239
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3/15/2015 6:01:45 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/15/2015 5:47:51 PM, YassineB wrote:
At 3/15/2015 4:40:02 PM, YYW wrote:
I didn't used to be as cynical about the Middle East as I am, but when I wasn't cynical I was mostly ignorant. I see zero chance that democracy can function in Iraq or Afghanistan in this generation. Saudi Arabia is a miserable, godforsaken place who we only ally ourselves with because they have oil. Their lack of cultural progression beyond the norms of what might be considered ordinary in the seventh century is unforgivable. Iran, despite its nuclear intentions, has one of the least worst cultures in the middle east, but its political leaders are deranged and dangerous. Iraq has become the paragon of human depravity, and Syria is just as bad.

I was talking to a Syrian immigrant last summer, and she told me that Western media weren't truthfully reporting what Assad was doing. She said that Assad was gassing and killing people who had joined rebel militia forces who were killing Christians and moderate Muslims. It turns out, she was telling the truth. Jordan is one of the weapons capitals of the world, and it's like a trading junction for all the would-be mercenaries that would visit death and doom onto fledgling parts of the world.

Yemen is little more than a scab on human civilization. It's a wasp's nest of terrorism and Islamic barbarism. To illustrate the extent of Yemen's religious depravity: A 17 year old girl who was gang raped by a group of religious zealots was buried in the ground up the neck and stoned to death for "sexual immorality." This was "god's will" in accordance with "sharia law." Bullsh!t. The UAE employed North Korean slaves to construct its mighty buildings, although on balance they are less offensive than most of the rest of the middle east. Bahrain and Qatar follow suit. I can't think of a single positive thing to say about Oman. Turkey had the chance to be somewhat European, but its government seems determined to make that an impossibility. Azerbaijan shows some hope, as does Georgia (although I don't think they technically count as Middle Eastern).

The positives? Lebanon has excellent food. Israel is cool. The rest of the region... not a lot of hope there.

But because of globalization, we are all living in Israel: we are subject to religiously motivated violence that comes from a fallen part of the world. That is not to say that all muslims are bad people, but many of the Muslims in the middle east are. Whenever there's a glimmer of hope or change for the better, religious zealots tend to kill that person off (or, at least that's been the case in Pakistan -I recognize that Pakistan is South Asian and not middle eastern, but the point remains).

And now, ISIS is trying to recruit American teenagers and 20-somethings. It makes my skin crawl to think about it. ISIS has gone out of its way to recruit young men and women in Minnesota's Somali communities, as well as in a number of other places in the country. ISIS is aggressively trying to get young American muslims as well, because of the power and access that an American passport wields. It makes me sick to think about it. Now, Muslim-American parents who escaped the Middle East and came to the United States so that they and their kids could have a better future have to face the risk that their kids might be radicalized. It's heartbreaking.

In retrospect, I think it's reasonably clear that there is going to have to be a strong-man dictator that comes into power in Iraq to stabilize the region... and there are not even words to describe how bad that is. It's horrible, and it means that everything we sacrificed in Iraq was for nothing. The aftermath of this war has reasonably shown that Iraq is not another Vietnam; it's worse than Vietnam.

In America, we are a blessed people... because no matter how batshit insane the Republicans may be, or how ridiculous their politics have been, we are still responsible enough as a body politic to handle democracy; like, it can and does work here, and it works quite well, even on our worst day... and that will never happen in the Middle East. Islamic cultural norms, as they exist in the Middle East, will prevent that region from ever knowing what it is like to live like we do. They are not able to handle it; whether every human being has a right to be ruled by representative government or not, only a select few can handle the responsibility.

- The funny thing is, much of what you said is how the muslim world widely views the West. & by the way, you're still ignorant, & in the most unfathomable way, you just don't it.

Yassine, I know you have this view that you understand things... and the history of my interactions with you generally suggests to me that (1) you have no idea what you're talking about in almost every occasion where you voice an opinion about anything, (2) you irrationally defend Muslims when they rightfully ought to be concerned, (3) You are highly anti-Semitic, (4) you ignore atrocities perpetrated by Muslims against Westerners and other Muslims.

And the fact remains that your comment doesn't even make sense. Nothing that I said about the Middle East could be applied to the West (The United States, Canada or Europe).

But, I have no inclination that I will change the way you think here... you've proven entirely too stubborn for that.
YassineB
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3/15/2015 6:08:38 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/15/2015 6:01:45 PM, YYW wrote:
Yassine, I know you have this view that you understand things... and the history of my interactions with you generally suggests to me that (1) you have no idea what you're talking about in almost every occasion where you voice an opinion about anything, (2) you irrationally defend Muslims when they rightfully ought to be concerned, (3) You are highly anti-Semitic, (4) you ignore atrocities perpetrated by Muslims against Westerners and other Muslims.

- I am pretty sure you're talking about someone else here. You made 4 false claims about me, if you can provide proof for any of them I promise you I'll leave this Forum.

And the fact remains that your comment doesn't even make sense. Nothing that I said about the Middle East could be applied to the West (The United States, Canada or Europe).

- That's what you think, the average muslim in a muslim country certainly disagrees, & even some in West.

But, I have no inclination that I will change the way you think here... you've proven entirely too stubborn for that.

- I follow the best argument, if you can provide one, you'll win me over.
Current Debates In Voting Period:

- The Qur'an We Have Today is Not What Muhammad Dictated Verbatim. Vs. @Envisage:
http://www.debate.org...

- Drawing Contest. Vs. @purpleduck:
http://www.debate.org...

"It is perfectly permissible to vote on sources without reading them" bluesteel.
Vox_Veritas
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3/15/2015 6:08:55 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/15/2015 4:40:02 PM, YYW wrote:
I didn't used to be as cynical about the Middle East as I am, but when I wasn't cynical I was mostly ignorant. I see zero chance that democracy can function in Iraq or Afghanistan in this generation. Saudi Arabia is a miserable, godforsaken place who we only ally ourselves with because they have oil. Their lack of cultural progression beyond the norms of what might be considered ordinary in the seventh century is unforgivable. Iran, despite its nuclear intentions, has one of the least worst cultures in the middle east, but its political leaders are deranged and dangerous. Iraq has become the paragon of human depravity, and Syria is just as bad.

I was talking to a Syrian immigrant last summer, and she told me that Western media weren't truthfully reporting what Assad was doing. She said that Assad was gassing and killing people who had joined rebel militia forces who were killing Christians and moderate Muslims. It turns out, she was telling the truth. Jordan is one of the weapons capitals of the world, and it's like a trading junction for all the would-be mercenaries that would visit death and doom onto fledgling parts of the world.

Yemen is little more than a scab on human civilization. It's a wasp's nest of terrorism and Islamic barbarism. To illustrate the extent of Yemen's religious depravity: A 17 year old girl who was gang raped by a group of religious zealots was buried in the ground up the neck and stoned to death for "sexual immorality." This was "god's will" in accordance with "sharia law." Bullsh!t. The UAE employed North Korean slaves to construct its mighty buildings, although on balance they are less offensive than most of the rest of the middle east. Bahrain and Qatar follow suit. I can't think of a single positive thing to say about Oman. Turkey had the chance to be somewhat European, but its government seems determined to make that an impossibility. Azerbaijan shows some hope, as does Georgia (although I don't think they technically count as Middle Eastern).

The positives? Lebanon has excellent food. Israel is cool. The rest of the region... not a lot of hope there.

But because of globalization, we are all living in Israel: we are subject to religiously motivated violence that comes from a fallen part of the world. That is not to say that all muslims are bad people, but many of the Muslims in the middle east are. Whenever there's a glimmer of hope or change for the better, religious zealots tend to kill that person off (or, at least that's been the case in Pakistan -I recognize that Pakistan is South Asian and not middle eastern, but the point remains).

And now, ISIS is trying to recruit American teenagers and 20-somethings. It makes my skin crawl to think about it. ISIS has gone out of its way to recruit young men and women in Minnesota's Somali communities, as well as in a number of other places in the country. ISIS is aggressively trying to get young American muslims as well, because of the power and access that an American passport wields. It makes me sick to think about it. Now, Muslim-American parents who escaped the Middle East and came to the United States so that they and their kids could have a better future have to face the risk that their kids might be radicalized. It's heartbreaking.

In retrospect, I think it's reasonably clear that there is going to have to be a strong-man dictator that comes into power in Iraq to stabilize the region... and there are not even words to describe how bad that is. It's horrible, and it means that everything we sacrificed in Iraq was for nothing. The aftermath of this war has reasonably shown that Iraq is not another Vietnam; it's worse than Vietnam.

In America, we are a blessed people... because no matter how batshit insane the Republicans may be, or how ridiculous their politics have been, we are still responsible enough as a body politic to handle democracy; like, it can and does work here, and it works quite well, even on our worst day... and that will never happen in the Middle East. Islamic cultural norms, as they exist in the Middle East, will prevent that region from ever knowing what it is like to live like we do. They are not able to handle it; whether every human being has a right to be ruled by representative government or not, only a select few can handle the responsibility.

You made a good point...except for the part about Republicans.
Anyway, I do think that the Middle East's problems can be solved by an unpleasant solution:

Balkanization and Federation.
Why? Well, imagine it like this? A lot of the problems there are because two or more groups which aim to have their own way are stuck together in the same place. If the Middle East was carved up in a way that made the Balkan peoples blush, and people were relocated to these nations on ethnic and religious lines, within 25 years (after the crap caused by the relocation ended) the region would be stable and on the road to self-betterment. The Federation would be, of course, so that all nations would be forced to play nice by means of all rogue nations being put in line.
Even Islamic extremists would be made happy; there would be Sunni and Shia fundamentalist nations where Sharia Law was followed to the fullest. Any residents who conclude Sharia Law sucks can pack up and leave; if the local regime doesn't let them, that regime would be punished by the Federation.
And of course, the Federation would make sure that the various divided nation states couldn't be picked off one by one by some foreign power.
After the icky relocation was over with, almost everyone would be better off.
Call me Vox, the Resident Contrarian of debate.org.

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Skepsikyma
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3/15/2015 6:10:14 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/15/2015 5:10:33 PM, Spectre2 wrote:

You have finally taken the red pill. The middle east is a godforsaken hell hole that will never advance because of Islam. The day Islam is finally destroyed is the day, the whole world moves up

God, one of these days I'm going to disfigure myself by smashing my head into my keyboard.

Let's get one thing straight right of the bat: you have no real understanding of Middle Eastern history, culture, or of Islam. If you're mildly intelligent, you've read a few biased books and failed to confirm anything which they claimed by cross examining those claims to analysis by other reputable historians. The same is true of anyone who posts things like this after reading Bat Ye'or or some other self-proclaimed expert. However, it's also within possibility that you actually are completely and utterly ignorant of every aspect of Middle Eastern culture and are just taking reference in the false security of consensus. Either one is a state which isn't in your best interest, as fostering ignorance is always a form of manipulation, and whoever has supplied you with this false information is interested in the maintenance of their personal delusion or in their own well-being, not yours. If you want to understand the history of the Middle East, read works by preeminent Orientalists like William Montgomery Watt, who operated at the time before outright lies about Middle Eastern history became the dominant fashion.

That is not what YYW said, at all. He made a nuanced assessment of the situation, and reassessed the wisdom of Western commitment to fostering what we consider ideal government there. I agree with his assessment. The problems in the Middle East are manifold, and stem from a deconstruction of the institutions which stabilized it over centuries. The first of these institutions were the well-educated ulema, the Islamic polymaths who established and ran the madrasas and courts of the classical Islamic and Ottoman worlds, and the imperial authority of the caliph or sultan which united the Middle East politically. The degradation of the former has lead to the collapse of education in many areas of the Middle East, and of the prominence of radical ideologies like Salafism which were once censured and debunked by the educated scholars. The lack of the latter has lead to the political conflicts and power vacuums which have allowed radical forms of Islam to pervade and corrupt so much of the Middle East. Real solutions must involve Islam. Anything else is destined to failure. Or are we so quick to forget that the Ba'athism of Assad and Saddam was supposed to be the solution which dispensed with Islam? How well did that work out? Was Islam eliminated? No, it was merely radicalized, politicized, and aligned with anti-Western forces who resented oppression.
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
YYW
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3/15/2015 6:23:28 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/15/2015 6:08:55 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
You made a good point...except for the part about Republicans.

lol well... can't please everyone.

Anyway, I do think that the Middle East's problems can be solved by an unpleasant solution:

Balkanization and Federation.
Why? Well, imagine it like this? A lot of the problems there are because two or more groups which aim to have their own way are stuck together in the same place. If the Middle East was carved up in a way that made the Balkan peoples blush, and people were relocated to these nations on ethnic and religious lines, within 25 years (after the crap caused by the relocation ended) the region would be stable and on the road to self-betterment. The Federation would be, of course, so that all nations would be forced to play nice by means of all rogue nations being put in line.

Relocating people is a lot harder than it sounds, and historically it has never worked well; whether it's relocating the urban poor to dazzling new housing projects (read: pruitt igoe), political refugees to a new place that could be "theirs," etc.

I know it sounds sort of strange, especially in this kind of a context, that people would feel bound to a particular piece of geographic territory, but they do -and when you uproot them, bad things happen: violence, especially.

The idea of balkanization, though, has definitely been offered before and I think that every few years or so a new academic talks about its virtues. It's got a nice communitarian feel to it, and it settles nicely with the ideals of a lot of multiculturalist-cosmopolitain westerners.

But at the end of the day, I am never going to be able to commit my own efforts to any solution where Islamic law is enforceable by the state. The idea of allowing people, even if they all agreed to live by fundamentalist sharia law, to live by it is repulsive to me.

Even Islamic extremists would be made happy; there would be Sunni and Shia fundamentalist nations where Sharia Law was followed to the fullest. Any residents who conclude Sharia Law sucks can pack up and leave; if the local regime doesn't let them, that regime would be punished by the Federation.

I think that in a lot of ways, Iraq under Hussein functioned "somewhat" like that, but the problem is that mobility is hard for people, especially when they believe that they have a right to a particular piece of land.
Vox_Veritas
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3/15/2015 6:26:40 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/15/2015 6:23:28 PM, YYW wrote:
At 3/15/2015 6:08:55 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
You made a good point...except for the part about Republicans.

lol well... can't please everyone.

Anyway, I do think that the Middle East's problems can be solved by an unpleasant solution:

Balkanization and Federation.
Why? Well, imagine it like this? A lot of the problems there are because two or more groups which aim to have their own way are stuck together in the same place. If the Middle East was carved up in a way that made the Balkan peoples blush, and people were relocated to these nations on ethnic and religious lines, within 25 years (after the crap caused by the relocation ended) the region would be stable and on the road to self-betterment. The Federation would be, of course, so that all nations would be forced to play nice by means of all rogue nations being put in line.

Relocating people is a lot harder than it sounds, and historically it has never worked well; whether it's relocating the urban poor to dazzling new housing projects (read: pruitt igoe), political refugees to a new place that could be "theirs," etc.

I know it sounds sort of strange, especially in this kind of a context, that people would feel bound to a particular piece of geographic territory, but they do -and when you uproot them, bad things happen: violence, especially.

The idea of balkanization, though, has definitely been offered before and I think that every few years or so a new academic talks about its virtues. It's got a nice communitarian feel to it, and it settles nicely with the ideals of a lot of multiculturalist-cosmopolitain westerners.

But at the end of the day, I am never going to be able to commit my own efforts to any solution where Islamic law is enforceable by the state. The idea of allowing people, even if they all agreed to live by fundamentalist sharia law, to live by it is repulsive to me.

Even Islamic extremists would be made happy; there would be Sunni and Shia fundamentalist nations where Sharia Law was followed to the fullest. Any residents who conclude Sharia Law sucks can pack up and leave; if the local regime doesn't let them, that regime would be punished by the Federation.

I think that in a lot of ways, Iraq under Hussein functioned "somewhat" like that, but the problem is that mobility is hard for people, especially when they believe that they have a right to a particular piece of land.

True. Human sentiment would get in the way.
Call me Vox, the Resident Contrarian of debate.org.

The DDO Blog:
https://debatedotorg.wordpress.com...

#drinkthecoffeenotthekoolaid
YassineB
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3/15/2015 6:37:04 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/15/2015 6:10:14 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 3/15/2015 5:10:33 PM, Spectre2 wrote:

You have finally taken the red pill. The middle east is a godforsaken hell hole that will never advance because of Islam. The day Islam is finally destroyed is the day, the whole world moves up

God, one of these days I'm going to disfigure myself by smashing my head into my keyboard.

Let's get one thing straight right of the bat: you have no real understanding of Middle Eastern history, culture, or of Islam. If you're mildly intelligent, you've read a few biased books and failed to confirm anything which they claimed by cross examining those claims to analysis by other reputable historians. The same is true of anyone who posts things like this after reading Bat Ye'or or some other self-proclaimed expert. However, it's also within possibility that you actually are completely and utterly ignorant of every aspect of Middle Eastern culture and are just taking reference in the false security of consensus. Either one is a state which isn't in your best interest, as fostering ignorance is always a form of manipulation, and whoever has supplied you with this false information is interested in the maintenance of their personal delusion or in their own well-being, not yours. If you want to understand the history of the Middle East, read works by preeminent Orientalists like William Montgomery Watt, who operated at the time before outright lies about Middle Eastern history became the dominant fashion.

That is not what YYW said, at all. He made a nuanced assessment of the situation, and reassessed the wisdom of Western commitment to fostering what we consider ideal government there. I agree with his assessment. The problems in the Middle East are manifold, and stem from a deconstruction of the institutions which stabilized it over centuries. The first of these institutions were the well-educated ulema, the Islamic polymaths who established and ran the madrasas and courts of the classical Islamic and Ottoman worlds, and the imperial authority of the caliph or sultan which united the Middle East politically. The degradation of the former has lead to the collapse of education in many areas of the Middle East, and of the prominence of radical ideologies like Salafism which were once censured and debunked by the educated scholars. The lack of the latter has lead to the political conflicts and power vacuums which have allowed radical forms of Islam to pervade and corrupt so much of the Middle East. Real solutions must involve Islam. Anything else is destined to failure. Or are we so quick to forget that the Ba'athism of Assad and Saddam was supposed to be the solution which dispensed with Islam? How well did that work out? Was Islam eliminated? No, it was merely radicalized, politicized, and aligned with anti-Western forces who resented oppression.

- Yeah, I noticed there is a wide misconception that the Ba'thists were representing Sunni Islam! I not sure how that came about!!
Current Debates In Voting Period:

- The Qur'an We Have Today is Not What Muhammad Dictated Verbatim. Vs. @Envisage:
http://www.debate.org...

- Drawing Contest. Vs. @purpleduck:
http://www.debate.org...

"It is perfectly permissible to vote on sources without reading them" bluesteel.
YYW
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3/15/2015 6:57:44 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
I think that people like Yassine are really one of the principle reasons that the Middle East will remain, indefinitely, exactly what it is: they deny the problems that exist, and lie to themselves about what that experience means. I know this might be unfairly broad, but the middle eastern zeitgeist seems to me to be more or less one caught between vitriolic bitterness and disillusionment, wrapped in an inculturated denial of objective reality.

Or, put in more practical language: the Middle East is an angry place, but they are angry at themselves because they know they are lying to themselves, and they're more concerned with the appearance of things than the reality of their lives. For example, Yassine, whenever confronted with an inconvenient truth, demands "proof," but when furnished with proof, denies that the proof is what it purports to be, because to admit what objectively "is" would shatter the fiction that he calls reality.

Again, I know this is really conceptual.... perhaps an example would clarify things:

Suppose that I reported something like... Yemini Muslims buried a 17 year old girl up to her neck and stoned her to death for "sexual immorality" because she was gang-raped by a group of muslim men. Suppose there was a video on live leak of this happening, and of the people explaining why they were doing what they were doing, before proceeding to stone her to death. Yassine would call this "western propaganda." And that's the basic problem... people like Yassine cannot distinguish fantasy from reality. But, this is by no means a trait unique to Yassine; he is just a symptom of the greater cultural disease that has condemned the Middle East to be and remain what it is now.

So, that's both the reason that I won't engage Yassine and the reason why I hate talking to Middle Easterners about the Middle East. They (except the ones who came to America in the hope of a better life) feel some cultural duty to lie to everyone else and to lie to themselves about how things are.... as if I'm somehow going to be fooled. I'm not that stupid... but they are.
YYW
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3/15/2015 6:59:21 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
I think the only kind of democracy that could function in the Middle East is Russian-style democracy (which is really nothing more than a highly politically corrupt oligarchy where the people fear the government).
Skepsikyma
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3/15/2015 7:11:31 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/15/2015 6:37:04 PM, YassineB wrote:
At 3/15/2015 6:10:14 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
Real solutions must involve Islam. Anything else is destined to failure. Or are we so quick to forget that the Ba'athism of Assad and Saddam was supposed to be the solution which dispensed with Islam? How well did that work out? Was Islam eliminated? No, it was merely radicalized, politicized, and aligned with anti-Western forces who resented oppression.

- Yeah, I noticed there is a wide misconception that the Ba'thists were representing Sunni Islam! I not sure how that came about!!

Yeah, it's one of those things which makes me grind my teeth. Sometimes I ask people to list 'bad Muslim extremists', and Assad's and Saddam's names come up all of the time.
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
YassineB
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3/15/2015 7:28:36 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/15/2015 7:11:31 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
- Yeah, I noticed there is a wide misconception that the Ba'thists were representing Sunni Islam! I not sure how that came about!!

Yeah, it's one of those things which makes me grind my teeth. Sometimes I ask people to list 'bad Muslim extremists', and Assad's and Saddam's names come up all of the time.

- You should take it easy, a lot of teeth grinding to go around ;) , save some for the more ignorant misconceptions.
Current Debates In Voting Period:

- The Qur'an We Have Today is Not What Muhammad Dictated Verbatim. Vs. @Envisage:
http://www.debate.org...

- Drawing Contest. Vs. @purpleduck:
http://www.debate.org...

"It is perfectly permissible to vote on sources without reading them" bluesteel.