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Why can't Jews and Arabs share Israel?

16kadams
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4/3/2015 10:12:56 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/3/2015 10:06:04 PM, LiberalProlifer wrote:
I don't understand.

They should be able to but, sadly, it seems as though the Arabs actually become violent when Israel offers this... And there are still Arabs in the region, and Arabs can become Israeli citizens with rights, so, you know, the option exists.
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LiberalProlifer
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4/3/2015 10:19:20 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/3/2015 10:12:56 PM, 16kadams wrote:
At 4/3/2015 10:06:04 PM, LiberalProlifer wrote:
I don't understand.

They should be able to but, sadly, it seems as though the Arabs actually become violent when Israel offers this... And there are still Arabs in the region, and Arabs can become Israeli citizens with rights, so, you know, the option exists.

Well said, I agree.
Vox_Veritas
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4/4/2015 1:14:39 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/3/2015 10:06:04 PM, LiberalProlifer wrote:
I don't understand.

The Arab "Palestinians" are heavily concentrated in the Gaza Strip and the West Bank, areas which are noticeably smaller than Israel. The Palestinians generally are poorer than their Israeli counterparts, which means they are less equipped for handling a high population density, meaning that conditions are perhaps growing worse in the Palestinian territories as the population increases. Indeed; if I've got my facts right, the Palestinian territories have among the highest population densities in the world.
The Palestinian claim that Israeli settlements are illegal is a questionable one, unless historical evidence can be found proving that the land does in fact belong to the Palestinians. Still, one might wonder whether Israel, which has a lower population density and is richer, should give up some of its land to the Palestinians, or at least allow a larger amount of Palestinians to live in Israel to serve as a "pressure valve" for the Palestinian territories.
However, I say that there should be no room for negotiation until Hamas is removed from power.
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Skepsikyma
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4/4/2015 2:20:37 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/3/2015 10:12:56 PM, 16kadams wrote:
At 4/3/2015 10:06:04 PM, LiberalProlifer wrote:
I don't understand.

They should be able to but, sadly, it seems as though the Arabs actually become violent when Israel offers this... And there are still Arabs in the region, and Arabs can become Israeli citizens with rights, so, you know, the option exists.

This was actually the original plan under the Balfour Declaration: a Jewish homeland, not a Jewish state. Israeli nationalists groups pushed for the establishment of a Jewish state right off the bat, over the protests of both endemic Muslims and Christians, as well as anti-Zionist Jews. Eventually the situation escalated, with many Jewish paramilitary groups waging outright terrorism campaigns against the British, the most notorious being the Irgun, who carried out the infamous King David Hotel bombings.

The subsequent withdrawal of British forces allowed the establishment of the Jewish state by force, and the UN stepped in to set up a partition and contain the conflict. I blame most of the roots of the problems here not on the Arabs, but on the British mismanagement and eventual abandonment of the Mandate, and of the complete unwillingness of Jewish nationalists to compromise for anything less than an explicitly Jewish state. Personally, with the way that Israel was established (using the same violent methods which Israelis now publicly deplore), and their insistence on a religious state over the moderate solutions offered by the British, I don't blame the Arabs at all for refusing the so-called olive branch. Israel had an opportunity to accept true equality under the law when offered a homeland under a non-biased ruler, but violently worked to overthrow that government in order establish a religious state, and then to offer Muslims a place as subjects within their country. The Arabs and Christians were willing to compromise on points like demographic restrictions and a balanced population. The Zionists were not, and they're really sleeping in the bed which they made for themselves right now.

Jews and Arabs cannot share Israel because Israel insists on being a Jewish state. That's obviously a problem to people who aren't Jews, especially when said Jewish State is engaged in irredentist landgrabs which consistently victimize the people whom they supposedly want to make peace with. It's an utter farce.
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
HououinKyouma
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4/4/2015 3:05:33 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/3/2015 10:06:04 PM, LiberalProlifer wrote:
I don't understand.

If it had been up to the Jews, they would have been sharing the land since '48. Arabs in Israel enjoy all the rights and privileges which the Jews have, and the Bedouin and Druze population in particular have been well treated by the Israeli government, in return they are quire keen to support and defend the state of Israel.

However, the Arabs did not want two separate states, and they did not even want a large Jewish population in what they consider to be their land. Since '48, only Egypt and Jordan have recognized Israel as a state with a right to exist, and the Jordanians have relinquished their claims to the West Bank and Gaza, which they annexed in '48.

The PLO, on the other hand, is divided between those who want to continue a ceaseless war of genocide and ethnic cleansing against Israel and want to wipe it off the map (the terrorist organization Hamas) and wish to create an Arab-only Islamic totalitarian state, and those who believe that the Palestinians should settle for Gaza and the West Bank (populated only by Arabs and dominated by the Palestinians) and once they acquire a state resume the war against Israel (the faction known as Fatah).
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PetersSmith
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4/4/2015 3:08:04 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/3/2015 10:06:04 PM, LiberalProlifer wrote:
I don't understand.

Because Jews are greedy.
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Vox_Veritas
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4/4/2015 3:10:20 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/4/2015 3:08:04 PM, PetersSmith wrote:
At 4/3/2015 10:06:04 PM, LiberalProlifer wrote:
I don't understand.

Because Jews are greedy.

Oy vey!
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Juan_Pablo
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4/4/2015 3:15:47 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
People don't like to share land and especially power.

I think that fact comes across well as you study human history.

People like to think of themselves as special--as more elevated than others. I'm also guilty of that.
TN05
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4/4/2015 3:18:27 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/4/2015 2:20:37 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 4/3/2015 10:12:56 PM, 16kadams wrote:
At 4/3/2015 10:06:04 PM, LiberalProlifer wrote:
I don't understand.

They should be able to but, sadly, it seems as though the Arabs actually become violent when Israel offers this... And there are still Arabs in the region, and Arabs can become Israeli citizens with rights, so, you know, the option exists.

This was actually the original plan under the Balfour Declaration: a Jewish homeland, not a Jewish state. Israeli nationalists groups pushed for the establishment of a Jewish state right off the bat, over the protests of both endemic Muslims and Christians, as well as anti-Zionist Jews. Eventually the situation escalated, with many Jewish paramilitary groups waging outright terrorism campaigns against the British, the most notorious being the Irgun, who carried out the infamous King David Hotel bombings.

The subsequent withdrawal of British forces allowed the establishment of the Jewish state by force, and the UN stepped in to set up a partition and contain the conflict. I blame most of the roots of the problems here not on the Arabs, but on the British mismanagement and eventual abandonment of the Mandate, and of the complete unwillingness of Jewish nationalists to compromise for anything less than an explicitly Jewish state. Personally, with the way that Israel was established (using the same violent methods which Israelis now publicly deplore), and their insistence on a religious state over the moderate solutions offered by the British, I don't blame the Arabs at all for refusing the so-called olive branch. Israel had an opportunity to accept true equality under the law when offered a homeland under a non-biased ruler, but violently worked to overthrow that government in order establish a religious state, and then to offer Muslims a place as subjects within their country. The Arabs and Christians were willing to compromise on points like demographic restrictions and a balanced population. The Zionists were not, and they're really sleeping in the bed which they made for themselves right now.

Jews and Arabs cannot share Israel because Israel insists on being a Jewish state. That's obviously a problem to people who aren't Jews, especially when said Jewish State is engaged in irredentist landgrabs which consistently victimize the people whom they supposedly want to make peace with. It's an utter farce.

Israel does not have a state religion.
Skepsikyma
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4/4/2015 3:27:43 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/4/2015 3:18:27 PM, TN05 wrote:
At 4/4/2015 2:20:37 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 4/3/2015 10:12:56 PM, 16kadams wrote:
At 4/3/2015 10:06:04 PM, LiberalProlifer wrote:
I don't understand.

They should be able to but, sadly, it seems as though the Arabs actually become violent when Israel offers this... And there are still Arabs in the region, and Arabs can become Israeli citizens with rights, so, you know, the option exists.

This was actually the original plan under the Balfour Declaration: a Jewish homeland, not a Jewish state. Israeli nationalists groups pushed for the establishment of a Jewish state right off the bat, over the protests of both endemic Muslims and Christians, as well as anti-Zionist Jews. Eventually the situation escalated, with many Jewish paramilitary groups waging outright terrorism campaigns against the British, the most notorious being the Irgun, who carried out the infamous King David Hotel bombings.

The subsequent withdrawal of British forces allowed the establishment of the Jewish state by force, and the UN stepped in to set up a partition and contain the conflict. I blame most of the roots of the problems here not on the Arabs, but on the British mismanagement and eventual abandonment of the Mandate, and of the complete unwillingness of Jewish nationalists to compromise for anything less than an explicitly Jewish state. Personally, with the way that Israel was established (using the same violent methods which Israelis now publicly deplore), and their insistence on a religious state over the moderate solutions offered by the British, I don't blame the Arabs at all for refusing the so-called olive branch. Israel had an opportunity to accept true equality under the law when offered a homeland under a non-biased ruler, but violently worked to overthrow that government in order establish a religious state, and then to offer Muslims a place as subjects within their country. The Arabs and Christians were willing to compromise on points like demographic restrictions and a balanced population. The Zionists were not, and they're really sleeping in the bed which they made for themselves right now.

Jews and Arabs cannot share Israel because Israel insists on being a Jewish state. That's obviously a problem to people who aren't Jews, especially when said Jewish State is engaged in irredentist landgrabs which consistently victimize the people whom they supposedly want to make peace with. It's an utter farce.

Israel does not have a state religion.

No, but they have an existentially grounded interest in maintaining a Jewish majority (They are declared as a 'Jewish State'), which necessitates exclusion of other groups. Couple that with Israel's irredentist settlement policies, and you have a set of very real grievances. So Israel tolerates those groups which live within its borders, but insists on maintaining a Jewish majority. The idea that all of the Arabs in the area could move without restriction into Israel is a pipe dream, because the demographic shift would shift the balance of power away from Jews. Then add to that the fact that Israel is constantly chipping away at their land with settlements in order to expand their 'Jewish Majority' state, and you can understand why the Arabs in the area see Israel as an oppressive force.

Basically, my grievance with Israel is that it casts itself as the victim inaccurately, and that it is unable to compromise, and that the experiment would have worked out a lot better if the original Balfour Declaration would have been followed instead of the violent overthrow of the British Mandate which occurred.
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
Juan_Pablo
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4/4/2015 3:33:59 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/4/2015 3:27:43 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 4/4/2015 3:18:27 PM, TN05 wrote:
At 4/4/2015 2:20:37 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 4/3/2015 10:12:56 PM, 16kadams wrote:
At 4/3/2015 10:06:04 PM, LiberalProlifer wrote:
I don't understand.

They should be able to but, sadly, it seems as though the Arabs actually become violent when Israel offers this... And there are still Arabs in the region, and Arabs can become Israeli citizens with rights, so, you know, the option exists.

This was actually the original plan under the Balfour Declaration: a Jewish homeland, not a Jewish state. Israeli nationalists groups pushed for the establishment of a Jewish state right off the bat, over the protests of both endemic Muslims and Christians, as well as anti-Zionist Jews. Eventually the situation escalated, with many Jewish paramilitary groups waging outright terrorism campaigns against the British, the most notorious being the Irgun, who carried out the infamous King David Hotel bombings.

The subsequent withdrawal of British forces allowed the establishment of the Jewish state by force, and the UN stepped in to set up a partition and contain the conflict. I blame most of the roots of the problems here not on the Arabs, but on the British mismanagement and eventual abandonment of the Mandate, and of the complete unwillingness of Jewish nationalists to compromise for anything less than an explicitly Jewish state. Personally, with the way that Israel was established (using the same violent methods which Israelis now publicly deplore), and their insistence on a religious state over the moderate solutions offered by the British, I don't blame the Arabs at all for refusing the so-called olive branch. Israel had an opportunity to accept true equality under the law when offered a homeland under a non-biased ruler, but violently worked to overthrow that government in order establish a religious state, and then to offer Muslims a place as subjects within their country. The Arabs and Christians were willing to compromise on points like demographic restrictions and a balanced population. The Zionists were not, and they're really sleeping in the bed which they made for themselves right now.

Jews and Arabs cannot share Israel because Israel insists on being a Jewish state. That's obviously a problem to people who aren't Jews, especially when said Jewish State is engaged in irredentist landgrabs which consistently victimize the people whom they supposedly want to make peace with. It's an utter farce.

Israel does not have a state religion.

No, but they have an existentially grounded interest in maintaining a Jewish majority.

I agree. Because of that very important detail, it's unrealistic to encourage Israelis and Palestinians to pursue a one-state solution; such an arrangement would never be fair to the rights and demands of Palestinians.
16kadams
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4/4/2015 3:51:22 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/4/2015 2:20:37 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 4/3/2015 10:12:56 PM, 16kadams wrote:
At 4/3/2015 10:06:04 PM, LiberalProlifer wrote:
I don't understand.

They should be able to but, sadly, it seems as though the Arabs actually become violent when Israel offers this... And there are still Arabs in the region, and Arabs can become Israeli citizens with rights, so, you know, the option exists.

This was actually the original plan under the Balfour Declaration: a Jewish homeland, not a Jewish state. Israeli nationalists groups pushed for the establishment of a Jewish state right off the bat, over the protests of both endemic Muslims and Christians, as well as anti-Zionist Jews. Eventually the situation escalated, with many Jewish paramilitary groups waging outright terrorism campaigns against the British, the most notorious being the Irgun, who carried out the infamous King David Hotel bombings.

The subsequent withdrawal of British forces allowed the establishment of the Jewish state by force, and the UN stepped in to set up a partition and contain the conflict. I blame most of the roots of the problems here not on the Arabs, but on the British mismanagement and eventual abandonment of the Mandate, and of the complete unwillingness of Jewish nationalists to compromise for anything less than an explicitly Jewish state. Personally, with the way that Israel was established (using the same violent methods which Israelis now publicly deplore), and their insistence on a religious state over the moderate solutions offered by the British, I don't blame the Arabs at all for refusing the so-called olive branch. Israel had an opportunity to accept true equality under the law when offered a homeland under a non-biased ruler, but violently worked to overthrow that government in order establish a religious state, and then to offer Muslims a place as subjects within their country. The Arabs and Christians were willing to compromise on points like demographic restrictions and a balanced population. The Zionists were not, and they're really sleeping in the bed which they made for themselves right now.

Jews and Arabs cannot share Israel because Israel insists on being a Jewish state. That's obviously a problem to people who aren't Jews, especially when said Jewish State is engaged in irredentist landgrabs which consistently victimize the people whom they supposedly want to make peace with. It's an utter farce.

I don't deny most of this. But the fact that Palestine has had many opportunities to become a state and has declined the offer is pretty telling--they were offered many times by Western Countries, Israel itself, and when Jordan was in control of the West Bank they didn't even ask to be independent. In modern history it is the Palestinians refusing to share the land.

What are you talking about? Landgrabs? Are you talking about all the wars or what. Israel was usually on the defensive, or in the right, in those wars. They bought most of the land before 1948 and when the Arabs tried to attack them they took it defensively. And even then I am pretty sure most Arabs fled so they didn't kick anyone out.
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"A trend is a trend, but the question is, will it bend? Will it alter its course through some unforeseen force and come to a premature end?" -- Alec Cairncross
Skepsikyma
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4/4/2015 4:03:29 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/4/2015 3:51:22 PM, 16kadams wrote:
At 4/4/2015 2:20:37 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 4/3/2015 10:12:56 PM, 16kadams wrote:
At 4/3/2015 10:06:04 PM, LiberalProlifer wrote:
I don't understand.

They should be able to but, sadly, it seems as though the Arabs actually become violent when Israel offers this... And there are still Arabs in the region, and Arabs can become Israeli citizens with rights, so, you know, the option exists.

This was actually the original plan under the Balfour Declaration: a Jewish homeland, not a Jewish state. Israeli nationalists groups pushed for the establishment of a Jewish state right off the bat, over the protests of both endemic Muslims and Christians, as well as anti-Zionist Jews. Eventually the situation escalated, with many Jewish paramilitary groups waging outright terrorism campaigns against the British, the most notorious being the Irgun, who carried out the infamous King David Hotel bombings.

The subsequent withdrawal of British forces allowed the establishment of the Jewish state by force, and the UN stepped in to set up a partition and contain the conflict. I blame most of the roots of the problems here not on the Arabs, but on the British mismanagement and eventual abandonment of the Mandate, and of the complete unwillingness of Jewish nationalists to compromise for anything less than an explicitly Jewish state. Personally, with the way that Israel was established (using the same violent methods which Israelis now publicly deplore), and their insistence on a religious state over the moderate solutions offered by the British, I don't blame the Arabs at all for refusing the so-called olive branch. Israel had an opportunity to accept true equality under the law when offered a homeland under a non-biased ruler, but violently worked to overthrow that government in order establish a religious state, and then to offer Muslims a place as subjects within their country. The Arabs and Christians were willing to compromise on points like demographic restrictions and a balanced population. The Zionists were not, and they're really sleeping in the bed which they made for themselves right now.

Jews and Arabs cannot share Israel because Israel insists on being a Jewish state. That's obviously a problem to people who aren't Jews, especially when said Jewish State is engaged in irredentist landgrabs which consistently victimize the people whom they supposedly want to make peace with. It's an utter farce.

I don't deny most of this. But the fact that Palestine has had many opportunities to become a state and has declined the offer is pretty telling--they were offered many times by Western Countries, Israel itself, and when Jordan was in control of the West Bank they didn't even ask to be independent. In modern history it is the Palestinians refusing to share the land.

It's the terms which they disagree with, which would have left them largely at Israel's mercy in any conflict. Offering the other side ridiculous terms and the opposition, of course, refusing them doesn't prove any sort of goodwill on the part of the partner in the position of power. Israel is well aware of what terms would be refused or accepted, and they have never offered the latter because they're in a strong enough negotiating position to avoid doing so. Iran going nuclear would dramatically shift that balance of power and force Israel to be compromising. That, and not the ludicrous proposition that Iran will nuke Israel, is the reason for their ardent opposition to the Iranian nuclear program.

What are you talking about? Landgrabs? Are you talking about all the wars or what. Israel was usually on the defensive, or in the right, in those wars. They bought most of the land before 1948 and when the Arabs tried to attack them they took it defensively. And even then I am pretty sure most Arabs fled so they didn't kick anyone out.

Settlements in occupied land. The fact that the Mandate collapsed, and that there were battles between Israeli and Palestinian paramilitary groups doesn't really jive with the idea that the Palestinian's 'fled'. A Jewish state formed, by force, and the Arabs resisted, by force, and lost. I'd call that an armed expulsion. Then Arab allies attacked in retaliation, lost, and the area was partitioned. Israel building on occupied land after the fact is the issue. And whom did they buy this land from?
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
16kadams
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4/4/2015 4:47:20 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/4/2015 4:03:29 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 4/4/2015 3:51:22 PM, 16kadams wrote:
At 4/4/2015 2:20:37 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 4/3/2015 10:12:56 PM, 16kadams wrote:
At 4/3/2015 10:06:04 PM, LiberalProlifer wrote:
I don't understand.

They should be able to but, sadly, it seems as though the Arabs actually become violent when Israel offers this... And there are still Arabs in the region, and Arabs can become Israeli citizens with rights, so, you know, the option exists.

This was actually the original plan under the Balfour Declaration: a Jewish homeland, not a Jewish state. Israeli nationalists groups pushed for the establishment of a Jewish state right off the bat, over the protests of both endemic Muslims and Christians, as well as anti-Zionist Jews. Eventually the situation escalated, with many Jewish paramilitary groups waging outright terrorism campaigns against the British, the most notorious being the Irgun, who carried out the infamous King David Hotel bombings.

The subsequent withdrawal of British forces allowed the establishment of the Jewish state by force, and the UN stepped in to set up a partition and contain the conflict. I blame most of the roots of the problems here not on the Arabs, but on the British mismanagement and eventual abandonment of the Mandate, and of the complete unwillingness of Jewish nationalists to compromise for anything less than an explicitly Jewish state. Personally, with the way that Israel was established (using the same violent methods which Israelis now publicly deplore), and their insistence on a religious state over the moderate solutions offered by the British, I don't blame the Arabs at all for refusing the so-called olive branch. Israel had an opportunity to accept true equality under the law when offered a homeland under a non-biased ruler, but violently worked to overthrow that government in order establish a religious state, and then to offer Muslims a place as subjects within their country. The Arabs and Christians were willing to compromise on points like demographic restrictions and a balanced population. The Zionists were not, and they're really sleeping in the bed which they made for themselves right now.

Jews and Arabs cannot share Israel because Israel insists on being a Jewish state. That's obviously a problem to people who aren't Jews, especially when said Jewish State is engaged in irredentist landgrabs which consistently victimize the people whom they supposedly want to make peace with. It's an utter farce.

I don't deny most of this. But the fact that Palestine has had many opportunities to become a state and has declined the offer is pretty telling--they were offered many times by Western Countries, Israel itself, and when Jordan was in control of the West Bank they didn't even ask to be independent. In modern history it is the Palestinians refusing to share the land.

It's the terms which they disagree with, which would have left them largely at Israel's mercy in any conflict. Offering the other side ridiculous terms and the opposition, of course, refusing them doesn't prove any sort of goodwill on the part of the partner in the position of power. Israel is well aware of what terms would be refused or accepted, and they have never offered the latter because they're in a strong enough negotiating position to avoid doing so. Iran going nuclear would dramatically shift that balance of power and force Israel to be compromising. That, and not the ludicrous proposition that Iran will nuke Israel, is the reason for their ardent opposition to the Iranian nuclear program.

So this is a topic you know more about than me. So what exactly are these terms the Palestinians hated and why would it put them at mercy? I mean Israel has won every war it has been in so... pretty sure they would lose almost no matter what. Plus Israel is the only functioning democracy in the region, so we should support them. Do you like Israel--assuming all of the harm the UK has done is permanent--or do you not like them


What are you talking about? Landgrabs? Are you talking about all the wars or what. Israel was usually on the defensive, or in the right, in those wars. They bought most of the land before 1948 and when the Arabs tried to attack them they took it defensively. And even then I am pretty sure most Arabs fled so they didn't kick anyone out.

Settlements in occupied land. The fact that the Mandate collapsed, and that there were battles between Israeli and Palestinian paramilitary groups doesn't really jive with the idea that the Palestinian's 'fled'. A Jewish state formed, by force, and the Arabs resisted, by force, and lost. I'd call that an armed expulsion. Then Arab allies attacked in retaliation, lost, and the area was partitioned. Israel building on occupied land after the fact is the issue. And whom did they buy this land from?

I may be wrong, but the UK at first was like "man we defend u den we leave k?" then the arabs raged and started killing the new Israli immigrants, so the Isralis said "fuk dis" and smuggled in weapons, fought back, pretty much kicked @ss, and then the palestinians ran away. Pretty sure it was mostly defensive on the Jewish side.

Who did they buy the land from? (http://en.wikipedia.org...)
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https://rekonomics.wordpress.com...
"A trend is a trend, but the question is, will it bend? Will it alter its course through some unforeseen force and come to a premature end?" -- Alec Cairncross
TN05
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4/4/2015 4:51:28 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/4/2015 3:27:43 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 4/4/2015 3:18:27 PM, TN05 wrote:
At 4/4/2015 2:20:37 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 4/3/2015 10:12:56 PM, 16kadams wrote:
At 4/3/2015 10:06:04 PM, LiberalProlifer wrote:
I don't understand.

They should be able to but, sadly, it seems as though the Arabs actually become violent when Israel offers this... And there are still Arabs in the region, and Arabs can become Israeli citizens with rights, so, you know, the option exists.

This was actually the original plan under the Balfour Declaration: a Jewish homeland, not a Jewish state. Israeli nationalists groups pushed for the establishment of a Jewish state right off the bat, over the protests of both endemic Muslims and Christians, as well as anti-Zionist Jews. Eventually the situation escalated, with many Jewish paramilitary groups waging outright terrorism campaigns against the British, the most notorious being the Irgun, who carried out the infamous King David Hotel bombings.

The subsequent withdrawal of British forces allowed the establishment of the Jewish state by force, and the UN stepped in to set up a partition and contain the conflict. I blame most of the roots of the problems here not on the Arabs, but on the British mismanagement and eventual abandonment of the Mandate, and of the complete unwillingness of Jewish nationalists to compromise for anything less than an explicitly Jewish state. Personally, with the way that Israel was established (using the same violent methods which Israelis now publicly deplore), and their insistence on a religious state over the moderate solutions offered by the British, I don't blame the Arabs at all for refusing the so-called olive branch. Israel had an opportunity to accept true equality under the law when offered a homeland under a non-biased ruler, but violently worked to overthrow that government in order establish a religious state, and then to offer Muslims a place as subjects within their country. The Arabs and Christians were willing to compromise on points like demographic restrictions and a balanced population. The Zionists were not, and they're really sleeping in the bed which they made for themselves right now.

Jews and Arabs cannot share Israel because Israel insists on being a Jewish state. That's obviously a problem to people who aren't Jews, especially when said Jewish State is engaged in irredentist landgrabs which consistently victimize the people whom they supposedly want to make peace with. It's an utter farce.

Israel does not have a state religion.

No, but they have an existentially grounded interest in maintaining a Jewish majority (They are declared as a 'Jewish State'), which necessitates exclusion of other groups. Couple that with Israel's irredentist settlement policies, and you have a set of very real grievances. So Israel tolerates those groups which live within its borders, but insists on maintaining a Jewish majority. The idea that all of the Arabs in the area could move without restriction into Israel is a pipe dream, because the demographic shift would shift the balance of power away from Jews. Then add to that the fact that Israel is constantly chipping away at their land with settlements in order to expand their 'Jewish Majority' state, and you can understand why the Arabs in the area see Israel as an oppressive force.

They are an ethnic state, yes. There are many ethnic states. Israel is not unique in that regard. The Arabs demanded a stop to immigration to keep their majority. How were they different?

Basically, my grievance with Israel is that it casts itself as the victim inaccurately, and that it is unable to compromise, and that the experiment would have worked out a lot better if the original Balfour Declaration would have been followed instead of the violent overthrow of the British Mandate which occurred.

I agree some fault for the initial issue falls on the British. But the Jews accepted offers far less generous that 1967 borders. The Arabs rejected all and demanded full control of the land. Blame Pan-Arabism for that one.
LiberalProlifer
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4/4/2015 7:15:49 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/4/2015 3:08:04 PM, PetersSmith wrote:
At 4/3/2015 10:06:04 PM, LiberalProlifer wrote:
I don't understand.

Because Jews are greedy.

That is a bigoted thing to say. Not all Jews are like that.
PetersSmith
Posts: 5,819
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4/4/2015 7:18:52 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/4/2015 7:15:49 PM, LiberalProlifer wrote:
At 4/4/2015 3:08:04 PM, PetersSmith wrote:
At 4/3/2015 10:06:04 PM, LiberalProlifer wrote:
I don't understand.

Because Jews are greedy.

That is a bigoted thing to say. Not all Jews are like that.

That's exactly what a Jew would say.
Empress of DDO (also Poll and Forum "Maintenance" Moderator)

"The two most important days in your life is the day you were born, and the day you find out why."
~Mark Twain

"Wow"
-Doge

"Don't believe everything you read on the internet just because there's a picture with a quote next to it."
~Abraham Lincoln

Guide to the Polls Section: http://www.debate.org...
LiberalProlifer
Posts: 803
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4/4/2015 7:24:01 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/4/2015 3:05:33 PM, HououinKyouma wrote:
At 4/3/2015 10:06:04 PM, LiberalProlifer wrote:
I don't understand.

If it had been up to the Jews, they would have been sharing the land since '48. Arabs in Israel enjoy all the rights and privileges which the Jews have, and the Bedouin and Druze population in particular have been well treated by the Israeli government, in return they are quire keen to support and defend the state of Israel.

However, the Arabs did not want two separate states, and they did not even want a large Jewish population in what they consider to be their land. Since '48, only Egypt and Jordan have recognized Israel as a state with a right to exist, and the Jordanians have relinquished their claims to the West Bank and Gaza, which they annexed in '48.

The PLO, on the other hand, is divided between those who want to continue a ceaseless war of genocide and ethnic cleansing against Israel and want to wipe it off the map (the terrorist organization Hamas) and wish to create an Arab-only Islamic totalitarian state, and those who believe that the Palestinians should settle for Gaza and the West Bank (populated only by Arabs and dominated by the Palestinians) and once they acquire a state resume the war against Israel (the faction known as Fatah).

Now that you say that, I agree.
LiberalProlifer
Posts: 803
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4/4/2015 7:25:41 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/4/2015 7:18:52 PM, PetersSmith wrote:
At 4/4/2015 7:15:49 PM, LiberalProlifer wrote:
At 4/4/2015 3:08:04 PM, PetersSmith wrote:
At 4/3/2015 10:06:04 PM, LiberalProlifer wrote:
I don't understand.

Because Jews are greedy.

That is a bigoted thing to say. Not all Jews are like that.
Reported for hate speech.
That's exactly what a Jew would say.
PetersSmith
Posts: 5,819
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4/4/2015 7:26:27 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/4/2015 7:25:41 PM, LiberalProlifer wrote:
At 4/4/2015 7:18:52 PM, PetersSmith wrote:
At 4/4/2015 7:15:49 PM, LiberalProlifer wrote:
At 4/4/2015 3:08:04 PM, PetersSmith wrote:
At 4/3/2015 10:06:04 PM, LiberalProlifer wrote:
I don't understand.

Because Jews are greedy.

That is a bigoted thing to say. Not all Jews are like that.
Reported for hate speech.
That's exactly what a Jew would say.

Lol, you need to learn how to differentiate trolling from seriousness.
Empress of DDO (also Poll and Forum "Maintenance" Moderator)

"The two most important days in your life is the day you were born, and the day you find out why."
~Mark Twain

"Wow"
-Doge

"Don't believe everything you read on the internet just because there's a picture with a quote next to it."
~Abraham Lincoln

Guide to the Polls Section: http://www.debate.org...
LiberalProlifer
Posts: 803
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4/4/2015 7:30:44 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/4/2015 7:26:27 PM, PetersSmith wrote:
At 4/4/2015 7:25:41 PM, LiberalProlifer wrote:
At 4/4/2015 7:18:52 PM, PetersSmith wrote:
At 4/4/2015 7:15:49 PM, LiberalProlifer wrote:
At 4/4/2015 3:08:04 PM, PetersSmith wrote:
At 4/3/2015 10:06:04 PM, LiberalProlifer wrote:
I don't understand.

Because Jews are greedy.

That is a bigoted thing to say. Not all Jews are like that.
Reported for hate speech.
That's exactly what a Jew would say.

Lol, you need to learn how to differentiate trolling from seriousness.

And you need to stop the hate speech., You need to leave this post until you are done with the hate speech.
PetersSmith
Posts: 5,819
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4/4/2015 7:31:12 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/4/2015 7:30:44 PM, LiberalProlifer wrote:
At 4/4/2015 7:26:27 PM, PetersSmith wrote:
At 4/4/2015 7:25:41 PM, LiberalProlifer wrote:
At 4/4/2015 7:18:52 PM, PetersSmith wrote:
At 4/4/2015 7:15:49 PM, LiberalProlifer wrote:
At 4/4/2015 3:08:04 PM, PetersSmith wrote:
At 4/3/2015 10:06:04 PM, LiberalProlifer wrote:
I don't understand.

Because Jews are greedy.

That is a bigoted thing to say. Not all Jews are like that.
Reported for hate speech.
That's exactly what a Jew would say.

Lol, you need to learn how to differentiate trolling from seriousness.

And you need to stop the hate speech., You need to leave this post until you are done with the hate speech.

You have no power over me.
Empress of DDO (also Poll and Forum "Maintenance" Moderator)

"The two most important days in your life is the day you were born, and the day you find out why."
~Mark Twain

"Wow"
-Doge

"Don't believe everything you read on the internet just because there's a picture with a quote next to it."
~Abraham Lincoln

Guide to the Polls Section: http://www.debate.org...
LiberalProlifer
Posts: 803
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4/4/2015 7:34:35 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/4/2015 7:31:12 PM, PetersSmith wrote:
At 4/4/2015 7:30:44 PM, LiberalProlifer wrote:
At 4/4/2015 7:26:27 PM, PetersSmith wrote:
At 4/4/2015 7:25:41 PM, LiberalProlifer wrote:
At 4/4/2015 7:18:52 PM, PetersSmith wrote:
At 4/4/2015 7:15:49 PM, LiberalProlifer wrote:
At 4/4/2015 3:08:04 PM, PetersSmith wrote:
At 4/3/2015 10:06:04 PM, LiberalProlifer wrote:
I don't understand.

Because Jews are greedy.

That is a bigoted thing to say. Not all Jews are like that.
Reported for hate speech.
That's exactly what a Jew would say.

Lol, you need to learn how to differentiate trolling from seriousness.

And you need to stop the hate speech., You need to leave this post until you are done with the hate speech.

You have no power over me.

You will not post here unless you actually debate. I am reporting you for harassment.
PetersSmith
Posts: 5,819
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4/4/2015 7:36:52 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/4/2015 7:34:35 PM, LiberalProlifer wrote:
At 4/4/2015 7:31:12 PM, PetersSmith wrote:
At 4/4/2015 7:30:44 PM, LiberalProlifer wrote:
At 4/4/2015 7:26:27 PM, PetersSmith wrote:
At 4/4/2015 7:25:41 PM, LiberalProlifer wrote:
At 4/4/2015 7:18:52 PM, PetersSmith wrote:
At 4/4/2015 7:15:49 PM, LiberalProlifer wrote:
At 4/4/2015 3:08:04 PM, PetersSmith wrote:
At 4/3/2015 10:06:04 PM, LiberalProlifer wrote:
I don't understand.

Because Jews are greedy.

That is a bigoted thing to say. Not all Jews are like that.
Reported for hate speech.
That's exactly what a Jew would say.

Lol, you need to learn how to differentiate trolling from seriousness.

And you need to stop the hate speech., You need to leave this post until you are done with the hate speech.

You have no power over me.

You will not post here unless you actually debate. I am reporting you for harassment.

This isn't a "debate", this is a forum. Debates have rules, this doesn't. You don't control the forums. You need to learn how to deal with people properly.
Empress of DDO (also Poll and Forum "Maintenance" Moderator)

"The two most important days in your life is the day you were born, and the day you find out why."
~Mark Twain

"Wow"
-Doge

"Don't believe everything you read on the internet just because there's a picture with a quote next to it."
~Abraham Lincoln

Guide to the Polls Section: http://www.debate.org...
LiberalProlifer
Posts: 803
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4/4/2015 7:40:49 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/4/2015 7:36:52 PM, PetersSmith wrote:
At 4/4/2015 7:34:35 PM, LiberalProlifer wrote:
At 4/4/2015 7:31:12 PM, PetersSmith wrote:
At 4/4/2015 7:30:44 PM, LiberalProlifer wrote:
At 4/4/2015 7:26:27 PM, PetersSmith wrote:
At 4/4/2015 7:25:41 PM, LiberalProlifer wrote:
At 4/4/2015 7:18:52 PM, PetersSmith wrote:
At 4/4/2015 7:15:49 PM, LiberalProlifer wrote:
At 4/4/2015 3:08:04 PM, PetersSmith wrote:
At 4/3/2015 10:06:04 PM, LiberalProlifer wrote:
I don't understand.

Because Jews are greedy.

That is a bigoted thing to say. Not all Jews are like that.
Reported for hate speech.
That's exactly what a Jew would say.

Lol, you need to learn how to differentiate trolling from seriousness.

And you need to stop the hate speech., You need to leave this post until you are done with the hate speech.

You have no power over me.

You will not post here unless you actually debate. I am reporting you for harassment.

This isn't a "debate", this is a forum. Debates have rules, this doesn't. You don't control the forums. You need to learn how to deal with people properly.

Yes it is a debate site called debate.org. You will either debate the facts or LEAVE! Reported for trolling.
PetersSmith
Posts: 5,819
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4/4/2015 7:42:05 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/4/2015 7:40:49 PM, LiberalProlifer wrote:
At 4/4/2015 7:36:52 PM, PetersSmith wrote:
At 4/4/2015 7:34:35 PM, LiberalProlifer wrote:
At 4/4/2015 7:31:12 PM, PetersSmith wrote:
At 4/4/2015 7:30:44 PM, LiberalProlifer wrote:
At 4/4/2015 7:26:27 PM, PetersSmith wrote:
At 4/4/2015 7:25:41 PM, LiberalProlifer wrote:
At 4/4/2015 7:18:52 PM, PetersSmith wrote:
At 4/4/2015 7:15:49 PM, LiberalProlifer wrote:
At 4/4/2015 3:08:04 PM, PetersSmith wrote:
At 4/3/2015 10:06:04 PM, LiberalProlifer wrote:
I don't understand.

Because Jews are greedy.

That is a bigoted thing to say. Not all Jews are like that.
Reported for hate speech.
That's exactly what a Jew would say.

Lol, you need to learn how to differentiate trolling from seriousness.

And you need to stop the hate speech., You need to leave this post until you are done with the hate speech.

You have no power over me.

You will not post here unless you actually debate. I am reporting you for harassment.

This isn't a "debate", this is a forum. Debates have rules, this doesn't. You don't control the forums. You need to learn how to deal with people properly.

Yes it is a debate site called debate.org. You will either debate the facts or LEAVE! Reported for trolling.

I don't think you're understanding the concept here.
Empress of DDO (also Poll and Forum "Maintenance" Moderator)

"The two most important days in your life is the day you were born, and the day you find out why."
~Mark Twain

"Wow"
-Doge

"Don't believe everything you read on the internet just because there's a picture with a quote next to it."
~Abraham Lincoln

Guide to the Polls Section: http://www.debate.org...
LiberalProlifer
Posts: 803
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4/4/2015 7:46:16 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/4/2015 7:42:05 PM, PetersSmith wrote:
At 4/4/2015 7:40:49 PM, LiberalProlifer wrote:
At 4/4/2015 7:36:52 PM, PetersSmith wrote:
At 4/4/2015 7:34:35 PM, LiberalProlifer wrote:
At 4/4/2015 7:31:12 PM, PetersSmith wrote:
At 4/4/2015 7:30:44 PM, LiberalProlifer wrote:
At 4/4/2015 7:26:27 PM, PetersSmith wrote:
At 4/4/2015 7:25:41 PM, LiberalProlifer wrote:
At 4/4/2015 7:18:52 PM, PetersSmith wrote:
At 4/4/2015 7:15:49 PM, LiberalProlifer wrote:
At 4/4/2015 3:08:04 PM, PetersSmith wrote:
At 4/3/2015 10:06:04 PM, LiberalProlifer wrote:
I don't understand.

Because Jews are greedy.

That is a bigoted thing to say. Not all Jews are like that.
Reported for hate speech.
That's exactly what a Jew would say.

Lol, you need to learn how to differentiate trolling from seriousness.

And you need to stop the hate speech., You need to leave this post until you are done with the hate speech.

You have no power over me.

You will not post here unless you actually debate. I am reporting you for harassment.

This isn't a "debate", this is a forum. Debates have rules, this doesn't. You don't control the forums. You need to learn how to deal with people properly.

Yes it is a debate site called debate.org. You will either debate the facts or LEAVE! Reported for trolling.

I don't think you're understanding the concept here.

Tjis conversation is about sharing Israel. Either debate that or leave, You have been reported.
PetersSmith
Posts: 5,819
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4/4/2015 7:46:50 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/4/2015 7:46:16 PM, LiberalProlifer wrote:
At 4/4/2015 7:42:05 PM, PetersSmith wrote:
At 4/4/2015 7:40:49 PM, LiberalProlifer wrote:
At 4/4/2015 7:36:52 PM, PetersSmith wrote:
At 4/4/2015 7:34:35 PM, LiberalProlifer wrote:
At 4/4/2015 7:31:12 PM, PetersSmith wrote:
At 4/4/2015 7:30:44 PM, LiberalProlifer wrote:
At 4/4/2015 7:26:27 PM, PetersSmith wrote:
At 4/4/2015 7:25:41 PM, LiberalProlifer wrote:
At 4/4/2015 7:18:52 PM, PetersSmith wrote:
At 4/4/2015 7:15:49 PM, LiberalProlifer wrote:
At 4/4/2015 3:08:04 PM, PetersSmith wrote:
At 4/3/2015 10:06:04 PM, LiberalProlifer wrote:
I don't understand.

Because Jews are greedy.

That is a bigoted thing to say. Not all Jews are like that.
Reported for hate speech.
That's exactly what a Jew would say.

Lol, you need to learn how to differentiate trolling from seriousness.

And you need to stop the hate speech., You need to leave this post until you are done with the hate speech.

You have no power over me.

You will not post here unless you actually debate. I am reporting you for harassment.

This isn't a "debate", this is a forum. Debates have rules, this doesn't. You don't control the forums. You need to learn how to deal with people properly.

Yes it is a debate site called debate.org. You will either debate the facts or LEAVE! Reported for trolling.

I don't think you're understanding the concept here.

Tjis conversation is about sharing Israel. Either debate that or leave, You have been reported.

Yeah, you said that about five times already.
Empress of DDO (also Poll and Forum "Maintenance" Moderator)

"The two most important days in your life is the day you were born, and the day you find out why."
~Mark Twain

"Wow"
-Doge

"Don't believe everything you read on the internet just because there's a picture with a quote next to it."
~Abraham Lincoln

Guide to the Polls Section: http://www.debate.org...