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Why were we attacked?

Rob1Billion
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7/27/2010 9:22:20 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/27/2010 8:46:59 AM, comoncents wrote:
Was it because we are a free nation?

Was it because of our foreign policy?



Osama says both?

http://www.guardian.co.uk...

If Osama is even a real person...

I believe we were attacked for 2 reasons. First, we are hoarding the world's resources, plundering other countries for their resources, and creating vast amounts of waste for the world to dispose of at an unparalleled rate in space or time. I'd attack us too if I saw that going on while I had to work all day just to afford a bucket of (somewhat clean) water. And it is that bad in the Gaza strip, if you were not aware.

Secondly is religion. Our culture, political system, and country as a whole is very Christian. In their eyes we are all Christian crusaders, attempting to spread our religion to their country. Christians fight very hard to recruit other people into it, and they know that. The very existence of Christianity means that Islam MUST BE WRONG. They both cannot be right because they are directly contradictory. The correct answer is, obviously, that they are both wrong, but we need to lay down our beliefs first instead of waiting for the stalemate to end indefinitely.

The answer to our problems is clear, then. They have decided that they won't be forced down, and it became obvious (to most of us) about ten years ago that occupying the middle east was not going to do anything positive. We need to get rid of ridiculous metaphysical claims (and their influences within our government) and start treating other countries like good neighbors instead of hostile foes. That last part is obviously pretty complex, but would include:
- removing immigration barriers
- increasing our foreign aid efforts to include countries other than Israel
- stopping the exploitation of other countries' people and resources
- and most importantly, making sure that access to the world wide web is brought to every person on the planet. If governments stand in the way of their own citizen's access to information, then THAT is the time or our military to step it up. Could you imagine a day where the US military is seen around the world as a force of good? A force that liberates people and brings them resources, information, and equality? Perhaps I am a dreamer; that is probably too far-fetched.
Master P is the end result of capitalism.
Cerebral_Narcissist
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7/27/2010 9:44:13 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
You were attacked because the most likely outcome was for some sort of retarded military adventure that would destabilise the middle east and thus bring Osama closer to his goal of restoring the Caliphate. Albeit, not much closer.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
Strikeeagle84015
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7/27/2010 9:48:38 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
2 reasons
1) We support Israel all the middle east nations hate Israel because they think they stole land and Israel humiliated the Muslim nations in three different wars.
2)We made a lot of stupid decisions during the cold war and put in a lot of unpopular dictators in to power, they then got overthrown and everyone hated us because we installed unpopular dictators.
Those are the two primary reasons the middle east hates us.
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brian_eggleston
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7/27/2010 9:51:30 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
Bin laden detailed the main reason why many Muslims are unhappy with America:

"The British handed over Palestine, with your help and your support, to the Jews, who have occupied it for more than 50 years; years overflowing with oppression, tyranny, crimes, killing, expulsion, destruction and devastation. The creation and continuation of Israel is one of the greatest crimes, and you are the leaders of its criminals. And of course there is no need to explain and prove the degree of American support for Israel."

That's why the United States (and also Britain) is a target for Islamic terrorists.

Actually, I believe that Muslims in Israel and the illegally-occupied Palestinian Territories suffer huge injustices at the hands of the Israeli government and that America and Britain are wrong not to condemn the Israelis, much less support them.

However, by resorting to violence and murder the Islamic terrorists have scored a massive own-goal, shifting the sympathy of the world away from the Muslim world and even further towards Israelis who face terrorist attacks on a daily basis.
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Rob1Billion
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7/27/2010 9:52:51 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/27/2010 9:48:38 AM, Strikeeagle84015 wrote:
2 reasons
1) We support Israel all the middle east nations hate Israel because they think they stole land and Israel humiliated the Muslim nations in three different wars.

I'm bad with history, but didn't we help ESTABLISH Israel, not just "support" them? And don't you think they find it a little perturbing that we have so many Christians in our government? Imagine if you lived in the middle east and the world powerhouse was run by Islam... Would that make you a little nervous? I bet it would be the Christians doing the suicide bombings then!
Master P is the end result of capitalism.
comoncents
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7/27/2010 9:53:56 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
What about this logic,

"(b) The American people are the ones who pay the taxes which fund the planes that bomb us in Afghanistan, the tanks that strike and destroy our homes in Palestine, the armies which occupy our lands in the Arabian Gulf, and the fleets which ensure the blockade of Iraq. These tax dollars are given to Israel for it to continue to attack us and penetrate our lands. So the American people are the ones who fund the attacks against us, and they are the ones who oversee the expenditure of these monies in the way they wish, through their elected candidates."

Wow. What a piece of work.
comoncents
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7/27/2010 9:55:59 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/27/2010 9:51:30 AM, brian_eggleston wrote:
Bin laden detailed the main reason why many Muslims are unhappy with America:

"The British handed over Palestine, with your help and your support, to the Jews, who have occupied it for more than 50 years; years overflowing with oppression, tyranny, crimes, killing, expulsion, destruction and devastation. The creation and continuation of Israel is one of the greatest crimes, and you are the leaders of its criminals. And of course there is no need to explain and prove the degree of American support for Israel."

That's why the United States (and also Britain) is a target for Islamic terrorists.

Actually, I believe that Muslims in Israel and the illegally-occupied Palestinian Territories suffer huge injustices at the hands of the Israeli government and that America and Britain are wrong not to condemn the Israelis, much less support them.

However, by resorting to violence and murder the Islamic terrorists have scored a massive own-goal, shifting the sympathy of the world away from the Muslim world and even further towards Israelis who face terrorist attacks on a daily basis.

What about,

"What are we calling you to, and what do we want from you?

(1) The first thing that we are calling you to is Islam."...

"(2) The second thing we call you to, is to stop your oppression, lies, immorality and debauchery that has spread among you.

(a) We call you to be a people of manners, principles, honour, and purity; to reject the immoral acts of fornication, homosexuality, intoxicants, gambling's, and trading with interest.

We call you to all of this that you may be freed from that which you have become caught up in; that you may be freed from the deceptive lies that you are a great nation, that your leaders spread amongst you to conceal from you the despicable state to which you have reached.

(b) It is saddening to tell you that you are the worst civilization witnessed by the history of mankind:

(i) You are the nation who, rather than ruling by the Shariah of Allah in its Constitution and Laws, choose to invent your own laws as you will and desire. You separate religion from your policies, contradicting the pure nature which affirms Absolute Authority to the Lord and your Creator. You flee from the embarrassing question posed to you: How is it possible for Allah the Almighty to create His creation, grant them power over all the creatures and land, grant them all the amenities of life, and then deny them that which they are most in need of: knowledge of the laws which govern their lives?"


He seems to hate Liberty, and if we don't stop, he will continue.
Rob1Billion
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7/27/2010 9:59:37 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/27/2010 9:53:56 AM, comoncents wrote:
What about this logic,


"(b) The American people are the ones who pay the taxes which fund the planes that bomb us in Afghanistan, the tanks that strike and destroy our homes in Palestine, the armies which occupy our lands in the Arabian Gulf, and the fleets which ensure the blockade of Iraq. These tax dollars are given to Israel for it to continue to attack us and penetrate our lands. So the American people are the ones who fund the attacks against us, and they are the ones who oversee the expenditure of these monies in the way they wish, through their elected candidates."


Wow. What a piece of work.

That is obviously not true... The people, exerting their will through the government, would not act in this way. I have better things to do than coerce my government to go bomb afghanistan. The powerful in our country control the people here as well as exert control in the middle east.
Master P is the end result of capitalism.
Volkov
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7/27/2010 10:06:17 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/27/2010 9:22:20 AM, Rob1Billion wrote:
If Osama is even a real person...

This is a good start....

I believe we were attacked for 2 reasons. First, we are hoarding the world's resources, plundering other countries for their resources, and creating vast amounts of waste for the world to dispose of at an unparalleled rate in space or time. I'd attack us too if I saw that going on while I had to work all day just to afford a bucket of (somewhat clean) water. And it is that bad in the Gaza strip, if you were not aware.

They hate us for our ability to utilize resources for profit?

Secondly is religion. Our culture, political system, and country as a whole is very Christian. In their eyes we are all Christian crusaders, attempting to spread our religion to their country. Christians fight very hard to recruit other people into it, and they know that. The very existence of Christianity means that Islam MUST BE WRONG. They both cannot be right because they are directly contradictory. The correct answer is, obviously, that they are both wrong, but we need to lay down our beliefs first instead of waiting for the stalemate to end indefinitely.

They hate us for our religion!

The answer to our problems is clear, then. They have decided that they won't be forced down, and it became obvious (to most of us) about ten years ago that occupying the middle east was not going to do anything positive. We need to get rid of ridiculous metaphysical claims (and their influences within our government) and start treating other countries like good neighbors instead of hostile foes. That last part is obviously pretty complex, but would include:

This will be good.

- removing immigration barriers

The United States already has an issue with poverty stemming from overpopulation and out-of-control immigration that uses up all the jobs in an area. Now you want to open it up even more?

- increasing our foreign aid efforts to include countries other than Israel

The US spends far more than any other country on foreign aid in all countries, excluding Israel. You're already asking for whats been done.

- stopping the exploitation of other countries' people and resources

"Exploitation"? The US, for all its sins, is a pretty fair partner with trade and production. Besides, your real idea is probably more "shut down all capitalist countries" than "ensure fair trade."

- and most importantly, making sure that access to the world wide web is brought to every person on the planet. If governments stand in the way of their own citizen's access to information, then THAT is the time or our military to step it up. Could you imagine a day where the US military is seen around the world as a force of good? A force that liberates people and brings them resources, information, and equality? Perhaps I am a dreamer; that is probably too far-fetched.

So the US military should invade countries over restricted broadband access? Because invading countries for oil is simply not enough war?

The US is not a global police force. It can't invade every place and become "broadband warriors." What you're asking for is not simply "dreaming" - it's madness, and almost contradictory for your own stated positions against war.
InsertNameHere
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7/27/2010 12:12:34 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/27/2010 8:46:59 AM, comoncents wrote:
Was it because we are a free nation?

lol.

Was it because of our foreign policy?

Yea, I'd say that has alot to do with it. The US does have a very aggressive foreign policy and is one of Israel's largest allies which most of the Islamic nations hate for reasons we probably all know.
comoncents
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7/27/2010 12:16:35 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/27/2010 12:12:34 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 7/27/2010 8:46:59 AM, comoncents wrote:
Was it because we are a free nation?

lol.

You lol, but read his comments.
It seems like a mix of both with foreign policy being the big one.


Was it because of our foreign policy?

Yea, I'd say that has alot to do with it. The US does have a very aggressive foreign policy and is one of Israel's largest allies which most of the Islamic nations hate for reasons we probably all know.
Rob1Billion
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7/27/2010 4:19:42 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/27/2010 10:06:17 AM, Volkov wrote:
At 7/27/2010 9:22:20 AM, Rob1Billion wrote:
If Osama is even a real person...

This is a good start....

I believe we were attacked for 2 reasons. First, we are hoarding the world's resources, plundering other countries for their resources, and creating vast amounts of waste for the world to dispose of at an unparalleled rate in space or time. I'd attack us too if I saw that going on while I had to work all day just to afford a bucket of (somewhat clean) water. And it is that bad in the Gaza strip, if you were not aware.

They hate us for our ability to utilize resources for profit?

Your moral defense of our over-consumption is moot; all they see is that they are poor and suffer under horrible conditions while we are rich and throw away enough food every day to feed them many times over.

Secondly is religion. Our culture, political system, and country as a whole is very Christian. In their eyes we are all Christian crusaders, attempting to spread our religion to their country. Christians fight very hard to recruit other people into it, and they know that. The very existence of Christianity means that Islam MUST BE WRONG. They both cannot be right because they are directly contradictory. The correct answer is, obviously, that they are both wrong, but we need to lay down our beliefs first instead of waiting for the stalemate to end indefinitely.

They hate us for our religion!

Very astute. Our religion happens to CONDEMN THEM ALL TO HELL if you hadn't noticed... Not to mention the fact that we are helping spread Christianity throughout the world. Try to put yourself in their shoes, for once. Do you want to see Christianity spread on the backs of the US military, who predominantly happen to be practicing Christians?

The answer to our problems is clear, then. They have decided that they won't be forced down, and it became obvious (to most of us) about ten years ago that occupying the middle east was not going to do anything positive. We need to get rid of ridiculous metaphysical claims (and their influences within our government) and start treating other countries like good neighbors instead of hostile foes. That last part is obviously pretty complex, but would include:

This will be good.

- removing immigration barriers

The United States already has an issue with poverty stemming from overpopulation and out-of-control immigration that uses up all the jobs in an area. Now you want to open it up even more?

Overpopulation? Europe has 60% more people than us in a MUCH smaller land area. By your logic, they should have all been dead a long time ago.

Jobs are not resources. "Using up all the jobs" is an absolutely ridiculous statement. If I came to your home and used up all the jobs, essentially I would be doing all your housework for you. Does this mean I am ruining your life?

- increasing our foreign aid efforts to include countries other than Israel

The US spends far more than any other country on foreign aid in all countries, excluding Israel. You're already asking for whats been done.

We give very little compared to our GNP. Comparatively speaking, we are in about 19th place. Of course you are capitalist and cannot appreciate this; in your eyes, a millionaire who gives $10 to charity is twice as productive than a homeless man who somehow finds the means to give $5.

- stopping the exploitation of other countries' people and resources

"Exploitation"? The US, for all its sins, is a pretty fair partner with trade and production. Besides, your real idea is probably more "shut down all capitalist countries" than "ensure fair trade."

We're really generous to pay foreigners pennies on the dollar what we pay our own citizens. Of course, if they don't like it, they can shove it. I love capitalism.

I would like to see the scourge of capitalism erased from the planet, yes.

- and most importantly, making sure that access to the world wide web is brought to every person on the planet. If governments stand in the way of their own citizen's access to information, then THAT is the time or our military to step it up. Could you imagine a day where the US military is seen around the world as a force of good? A force that liberates people and brings them resources, information, and equality? Perhaps I am a dreamer; that is probably too far-fetched.

So the US military should invade countries over restricted broadband access? Because invading countries for oil is simply not enough war?

We should provide access, that's all. Some countries will resist, you are correct (although some will not). In these countries, we should make efforts to educate the people that we are trying to provide them with access to the most marvelous invention humanity has ever witnessed. The people will demand to know why their government is restricting the access and will cause power shifts within that country that hopefully will result in liberation of the people. We can drop pamphlets, food - even weapons - inside the borders to help them fight. This is an example of a war where we actually have justice on our side, which we haven't had in perhaps forever.

Our current strategy is sanctions. So while other governments are preparing propaganda for their people, they have the added benefit of blaming the US for their suffering - and rightfully so. Do we expect the leaders of the countries are going to be hurt by sanctions? Somewhat, perhaps, but we are mainly attacking the poor people within the country with these sanctions. What a mess.

The US is not a global police force. It can't invade every place and become "broadband warriors." What you're asking for is not simply "dreaming" - it's madness, and almost contradictory for your own stated positions against war.

Not necessarily invade and conquer, just make an effort at helping the proletariat fight the war for us. We can aid them in whatever manner they ask.
Master P is the end result of capitalism.
Cerebral_Narcissist
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7/27/2010 4:42:32 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/27/2010 4:19:42 PM, Rob1Billion wrote:


Your moral defense of our over-consumption is moot; all they see is that they are poor and suffer under horrible conditions while we are rich and throw away enough food every day to feed them many times over.


Yes because Saudi Arabia is poor isn't it?
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
InsertNameHere
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7/27/2010 4:48:47 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/27/2010 4:42:32 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 7/27/2010 4:19:42 PM, Rob1Billion wrote:


Your moral defense of our over-consumption is moot; all they see is that they are poor and suffer under horrible conditions while we are rich and throw away enough food every day to feed them many times over.


Yes because Saudi Arabia is poor isn't it?

Nah, only reason they're wealthy is because of oil. If it wasn't for oil then the middle east would pretty much be a wasteland.
PARADIGM_L0ST
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7/27/2010 4:58:37 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/27/2010 8:46:59 AM, comoncents wrote:
Was it because we are a free nation?

Was it because of our foreign policy?

Osama says both?:

It's a combination of things, really.

1. U.S. interventionist policies
2. Ideological differences
3. Osama's radical beliefs.

But it doesn't really much matter with Osama. He will not be satisfied until the whole world adopts his crazed version of Wahhabi Islam.
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
Volkov
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7/27/2010 5:08:41 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/27/2010 4:19:42 PM, Rob1Billion wrote:
Your moral defense of our over-consumption is moot; all they see is that they are poor and suffer under horrible conditions while we are rich and throw away enough food every day to feed them many times over.

And? What should we do, give up all of the things we've worked to get? Because they resent that we earned it?

Very astute. Our religion happens to CONDEMN THEM ALL TO HELL if you hadn't noticed... Not to mention the fact that we are helping spread Christianity throughout the world. Try to put yourself in their shoes, for once. Do you want to see Christianity spread on the backs of the US military, who predominantly happen to be practicing Christians?

And try putting yourselves in their shoes, especially those calling for all of us to become Muslims. Do you want to see Islam spread on the backs of Al-Qaeda agents, who predominantly (no, sorry, are all) happen to be practicing Muslims?

Overpopulation? Europe has 60% more people than us in a MUCH smaller land area. By your logic, they should have all been dead a long time ago.

Have you seen the conditions in Europe, Rob? The issue of overpopulation there is a much, much bigger one than it is here in North America. Know why? There's too many freakin' people.

Go see the Paris communes, and you'll get my point.

Jobs are not resources. "Using up all the jobs" is an absolutely ridiculous statement. If I came to your home and used up all the jobs, essentially I would be doing all your housework for you. Does this mean I am ruining your life?

Employment is certainly a resource - we need employment in order to live well in this society. When there are not enough jobs to go around, when employment opportunities are low, what do you think happens?

We give very little compared to our GNP. Comparatively speaking, we are in about 19th place. Of course you are capitalist and cannot appreciate this; in your eyes, a millionaire who gives $10 to charity is twice as productive than a homeless man who somehow finds the means to give $5.

As a capitalist yes, the millionare who gives $10 is more productive than the homeless guy who gives $5 - but from the perspective of the charity, I would obviously think this. That's how business models work. Moral worth and sacrifice is certainly more on the side of the homeless person, but you don't run businesses, even charities, off of the moral value of a dollar. One of those dollar's from the rich guy will, in the end, mean the same as the dollar from the homeless guy.

We're really generous to pay foreigners pennies on the dollar what we pay our own citizens. Of course, if they don't like it, they can shove it. I love capitalism.

They can not only afford quite a bit more per "penny" than we do, they're all very appreciative of it. Do you think people would rather work for a "penny" (which can buy them an awful lot in their respective countries), or not work at all?

I would like to see the scourge of capitalism erased from the planet, yes.

You're far from a "liberal," Rob. I don't know how you can classify yourself as one.

We should provide access, that's all. Some countries will resist, you are correct (although some will not). In these countries, we should make efforts to educate the people that we are trying to provide them with access to the most marvelous invention humanity has ever witnessed. The people will demand to know why their government is restricting the access and will cause power shifts within that country that hopefully will result in liberation of the people. We can drop pamphlets, food - even weapons - inside the borders to help them fight. This is an example of a war where we actually have justice on our side, which we haven't had in perhaps forever.

Our current strategy is sanctions. So while other governments are preparing propaganda for their people, they have the added benefit of blaming the US for their suffering - and rightfully so. Do we expect the leaders of the countries are going to be hurt by sanctions? Somewhat, perhaps, but we are mainly attacking the poor people within the country with these sanctions. What a mess.

Not necessarily invade and conquer, just make an effort at helping the proletariat fight the war for us. We can aid them in whatever manner they ask.

It's an act of war to start dropping off propaganda, Rob. Violence will ensure, all because you want "broadband warriors."
Cerebral_Narcissist
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7/27/2010 5:18:39 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/27/2010 4:48:47 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 7/27/2010 4:42:32 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 7/27/2010 4:19:42 PM, Rob1Billion wrote:


Your moral defense of our over-consumption is moot; all they see is that they are poor and suffer under horrible conditions while we are rich and throw away enough food every day to feed them many times over.


Yes because Saudi Arabia is poor isn't it?

Nah, only reason they're wealthy is because of oil. If it wasn't for oil then the middle east would pretty much be a wasteland.

The point is that it is a rich country, poverty in Saudi Arabia is not the result of the evil western capitalists, nor is the oppression.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
InsertNameHere
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7/27/2010 5:19:55 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/27/2010 5:18:39 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 7/27/2010 4:48:47 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 7/27/2010 4:42:32 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 7/27/2010 4:19:42 PM, Rob1Billion wrote:


Your moral defense of our over-consumption is moot; all they see is that they are poor and suffer under horrible conditions while we are rich and throw away enough food every day to feed them many times over.


Yes because Saudi Arabia is poor isn't it?

Nah, only reason they're wealthy is because of oil. If it wasn't for oil then the middle east would pretty much be a wasteland.

The point is that it is a rich country, poverty in Saudi Arabia is not the result of the evil western capitalists, nor is the oppression.

Yea, it's mostly the Wahhabis.
Volkov
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7/27/2010 5:22:54 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
For crud's sake, people - Turkey, Albania, Tanzania, Jordan, Lebanon, Mali, Indonesia, etc.

Muslim countries that are moderately successful and/or have fairly stable political systems. Oh noes, CAPITALIST OPPRESSION!
Volkov
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7/27/2010 5:27:06 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/27/2010 5:18:39 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
The point is that it is a rich country, poverty in Saudi Arabia is not the result of the evil western capitalists, nor is the oppression.

Don't be silly, C_N - it's still evil western capitalists. If we didn't need the oil, they wouldn't be suffering! It's our fault for wanting a resource! We should give all that kinda stuff up.
InsertNameHere
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7/27/2010 5:28:09 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/27/2010 5:27:06 PM, Volkov wrote:
At 7/27/2010 5:18:39 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
The point is that it is a rich country, poverty in Saudi Arabia is not the result of the evil western capitalists, nor is the oppression.

Don't be silly, C_N - it's still evil western capitalists. If we didn't need the oil, they wouldn't be suffering! It's our fault for wanting a resource! We should give all that kinda stuff up.

Er...are you sure Rob1billion isn't a communist?
Volkov
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7/27/2010 5:29:29 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/27/2010 5:28:09 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
Er...are you sure Rob1billion isn't a communist?

I'm fairly sure he is, but he says he's a liberal.
InsertNameHere
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7/27/2010 5:31:00 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/27/2010 5:29:29 PM, Volkov wrote:
At 7/27/2010 5:28:09 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
Er...are you sure Rob1billion isn't a communist?

I'm fairly sure he is, but he says he's a liberal.

I'd say he is. Some of the things he says sound exactly like many of the things I said when I was in my communist phase.
Rob1Billion
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7/27/2010 5:36:32 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/27/2010 4:42:32 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 7/27/2010 4:19:42 PM, Rob1Billion wrote:


Your moral defense of our over-consumption is moot; all they see is that they are poor and suffer under horrible conditions while we are rich and throw away enough food every day to feed them many times over.


Yes because Saudi Arabia is poor isn't it?

The elites there aren't. The elites everywhere aren't.
Master P is the end result of capitalism.
Cerebral_Narcissist
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7/27/2010 5:39:27 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/27/2010 5:36:32 PM, Rob1Billion wrote:
At 7/27/2010 4:42:32 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 7/27/2010 4:19:42 PM, Rob1Billion wrote:


Your moral defense of our over-consumption is moot; all they see is that they are poor and suffer under horrible conditions while we are rich and throw away enough food every day to feed them many times over.


Yes because Saudi Arabia is poor isn't it?

The elites there aren't. The elites everywhere aren't.

It seems to me that the USA is a poor target to strike when they really should be after Saudi Princes.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
Rob1Billion
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7/27/2010 6:04:17 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/27/2010 5:08:41 PM, Volkov wrote:
At 7/27/2010 4:19:42 PM, Rob1Billion wrote:
Your moral defense of our over-consumption is moot; all they see is that they are poor and suffer under horrible conditions while we are rich and throw away enough food every day to feed them many times over.

And? What should we do, give up all of the things we've worked to get? Because they resent that we earned it?

Very astute. Our religion happens to CONDEMN THEM ALL TO HELL if you hadn't noticed... Not to mention the fact that we are helping spread Christianity throughout the world. Try to put yourself in their shoes, for once. Do you want to see Christianity spread on the backs of the US military, who predominantly happen to be practicing Christians?

And try putting yourselves in their shoes, especially those calling for all of us to become Muslims. Do you want to see Islam spread on the backs of Al-Qaeda agents, who predominantly (no, sorry, are all) happen to be practicing Muslims?

Which brings us full circle back to why religion in government needs to be disbanded. I'm just as disgusted with Islam as you are, but unless Americans are willing to put Christianity behind them we can never extinguish Islam. Agnosticism is the only religion ANYONE can agree on.

Overpopulation? Europe has 60% more people than us in a MUCH smaller land area. By your logic, they should have all been dead a long time ago.

Have you seen the conditions in Europe, Rob? The issue of overpopulation there is a much, much bigger one than it is here in North America. Know why? There's too many freakin' people.

Overpopulation is a global problem, not a regional one. We can always import our water and other resources from elsewhere. Letting Mexicans into the US will increase their wealth and they can become middle class citizens who don't procreate like jack-rabbits.

Go see the Paris communes, and you'll get my point.

Europe also has a negative population growth.

Jobs are not resources. "Using up all the jobs" is an absolutely ridiculous statement. If I came to your home and used up all the jobs, essentially I would be doing all your housework for you. Does this mean I am ruining your life?

Employment is certainly a resource - we need employment in order to live well in this society. When there are not enough jobs to go around, when employment opportunities are low, what do you think happens?

Under capitalism, people are denied purchasing power without jobs and starve to death. That doesn't mean jobs are resources, that means jobs are required to live under capitalism. I believe you're familiar with my ideas on the subject by now :)

We give very little compared to our GNP. Comparatively speaking, we are in about 19th place. Of course you are capitalist and cannot appreciate this; in your eyes, a millionaire who gives $10 to charity is twice as productive than a homeless man who somehow finds the means to give $5.

As a capitalist yes, the millionare who gives $10 is more productive than the homeless guy who gives $5 - but from the perspective of the charity, I would obviously think this. That's how business models work. Moral worth and sacrifice is certainly more on the side of the homeless person, but you don't run businesses, even charities, off of the moral value of a dollar. One of those dollar's from the rich guy will, in the end, mean the same as the dollar from the homeless guy.

My point is that wealthy capitalists never acknowledge %s. If a millionaire is hoarding $500M and giving $100 a year to charity, then they are essentially taking more money from the poor than they are giving. So the millionaire in our example may gross $10 - double the homeless guy - but he nets far into the negatives when you take into account the resources he is hoarding.

We're really generous to pay foreigners pennies on the dollar what we pay our own citizens. Of course, if they don't like it, they can shove it. I love capitalism.

I don't remember it coming out that way...

They can not only afford quite a bit more per "penny" than we do, they're all very appreciative of it. Do you think people would rather work for a "penny" (which can buy them an awful lot in their respective countries), or not work at all?

Yes, that's the "take it or shove it" part. I think that they would rather be contributing their efforts in helping their own communities than doing customer service work under slave-like conditions for fat rich Americans.

I would like to see the scourge of capitalism erased from the planet, yes.

You're far from a "liberal," Rob. I don't know how you can classify yourself as one.

If you're referring to my profile, then I will change it. I used to be liberal, and then I realized the whole left-right thing was like a hampster on a treadmill - you only get anywhere if you get off and pave your own path.

We should provide access, that's all. Some countries will resist, you are correct (although some will not). In these countries, we should make efforts to educate the people that we are trying to provide them with access to the most marvelous invention humanity has ever witnessed. The people will demand to know why their government is restricting the access and will cause power shifts within that country that hopefully will result in liberation of the people. We can drop pamphlets, food - even weapons - inside the borders to help them fight. This is an example of a war where we actually have justice on our side, which we haven't had in perhaps forever.

Our current strategy is sanctions. So while other governments are preparing propaganda for their people, they have the added benefit of blaming the US for their suffering - and rightfully so. Do we expect the leaders of the countries are going to be hurt by sanctions? Somewhat, perhaps, but we are mainly attacking the poor people within the country with these sanctions. What a mess.

Not necessarily invade and conquer, just make an effort at helping the proletariat fight the war for us. We can aid them in whatever manner they ask.

It's an act of war to start dropping off propaganda, Rob. Violence will ensure, all because you want "broadband warriors."

Who gives a sh11 if it's an act of war? Dropping food, weapons, and educational materials is an act of liberation. If their governments complain and declare war on us, we can tell them to take a number and get in line. They aren't going to accomplish anything militarily against us anyway.

Don't you think the people who are being liberated are going to question their government's attempts at keeping them oppressed anyway? Would you rather have the entire third world developing in the shadows and embracing wild religious beliefs because they don't even understand basic physics and biology, and have no concept of "freedom?" By helping the world's poor we can hurt the totalitarian governments that oppress them and threaten us.
Master P is the end result of capitalism.
Rob1Billion
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7/27/2010 8:00:12 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/27/2010 5:19:55 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 7/27/2010 5:18:39 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 7/27/2010 4:48:47 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 7/27/2010 4:42:32 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 7/27/2010 4:19:42 PM, Rob1Billion wrote:


Your moral defense of our over-consumption is moot; all they see is that they are poor and suffer under horrible conditions while we are rich and throw away enough food every day to feed them many times over.


Yes because Saudi Arabia is poor isn't it?

Nah, only reason they're wealthy is because of oil. If it wasn't for oil then the middle east would pretty much be a wasteland.

The point is that it is a rich country, poverty in Saudi Arabia is not the result of the evil western capitalists, nor is the oppression.

Yea, it's mostly the Wahhabis.

Doesn't that prove my point? The Wahhabis, if ANYONE, can be said to be a product of anti-Western sentiment.
Master P is the end result of capitalism.
Rob1Billion
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7/27/2010 8:05:56 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/27/2010 5:27:06 PM, Volkov wrote:

For crud's sake, people - Turkey, Albania, Tanzania, Jordan, Lebanon, Mali, Indonesia, etc.

Muslim countries that are moderately successful and/or have fairly stable political systems. Oh noes, CAPITALIST OPPRESSION!

I'm not catching your irony Volkov. What is your point?

At 7/27/2010 5:18:39 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
The point is that it is a rich country, poverty in Saudi Arabia is not the result of the evil western capitalists, nor is the oppression.

Don't be silly, C_N - it's still evil western capitalists. If we didn't need the oil, they wouldn't be suffering! It's our fault for wanting a resource! We should give all that kinda stuff up.

If Saudi Arabia wishes to give us oil, they can (although I wish they wouldn't). Currency is simply a way for us to force them to give us the oil; if they want ANYTHING from the rest of us they better get out there and make us some GD money.
Master P is the end result of capitalism.