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Why Left-Wing nations fail

Vox_Veritas
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4/20/2015 2:29:03 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
-The implementation of Left-Wing economic ideas may result in the creation of a utopia where nobody's living in poverty and the businesses treat everyone well. However, in terms of sheer economic growth a capitalist nation typically will dominate. A Left-Wing economy will be comparatively small, and looked down upon as a failure.

-A true Left-Wing nation would not have a military, or its military would be quite small. That means a Right-Wing nation of equal status, with its big military, could crush the Left-Wing nation in a war.

Thus, I must conclude that the reason Left-Wing nations fail is because there are Right-Wing nations. You must remove all other nations that will "compete" with you in a contest that you cannot win.
This is not to say that Right-Wing nations are better. Living conditions might be better in the Left-Wing nations. But my point stands.
Any thoughts on my observation?
Call me Vox, the Resident Contrarian of debate.org.

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bsh1
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4/20/2015 2:42:26 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Really, only "mixed" nations succeed. Extreme and puritanical nations/models always collapse eventually.
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Vox_Veritas
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4/20/2015 3:12:00 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/20/2015 2:42:26 PM, bsh1 wrote:
Really, only "mixed" nations succeed. Extreme and puritanical nations/models always collapse eventually.

I disagree. Many political models fail because they don't go all the way, which is sometimes worse than had they never started at all.
For instance, a nation where everyone adheres to Christianity and abides by the Christian moral code.
This isn't going to work if the culture and the media are endorsing opposite and contrary values. The end result will be a nation filled with people claiming to adhere to Christian values and acting in the exact opposite manner. It'd be a nation of hypocrites.
Likewise, for the Left-Wing to achieve its objectives uninhibited, every nation (if there's even more than one nation) must be Left-Wing.
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bsh1
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4/20/2015 3:13:51 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/20/2015 3:12:00 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 4/20/2015 2:42:26 PM, bsh1 wrote:
Really, only "mixed" nations succeed. Extreme and puritanical nations/models always collapse eventually.

I disagree. Many political models fail because they don't go all the way, which is sometimes worse than had they never started at all.
For instance, a nation where everyone adheres to Christianity and abides by the Christian moral code.

Can you give an example of a modern nation that went all the way and prospered? I also, keep in mind my comment was made in the context of economics, not theology.
Live Long and Prosper

I'm a Bish.


"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

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Vox_Veritas
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4/20/2015 3:30:45 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/20/2015 3:13:51 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 4/20/2015 3:12:00 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 4/20/2015 2:42:26 PM, bsh1 wrote:
Really, only "mixed" nations succeed. Extreme and puritanical nations/models always collapse eventually.

I disagree. Many political models fail because they don't go all the way, which is sometimes worse than had they never started at all.
For instance, a nation where everyone adheres to Christianity and abides by the Christian moral code.

Can you give an example of a modern nation that went all the way and prospered? I also, keep in mind my comment was made in the context of economics, not theology.

Few, if any, have. And even if they did, the outside inhibits and undermines their efforts.
But if I were to name one, I'd have to say Iran. Iran has gone all the way in the Islamic direction. And if Islam is the true religion, then Allah should be very pleased indeed with Iran.
But in a nonreligious sense, I'd have to say that such a nation probably doesn't fully exist. There's North Korea, but it was founded on a faulty premise.
Call me Vox, the Resident Contrarian of debate.org.

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Vox_Veritas
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4/20/2015 3:32:21 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Europe has embraced the Left-Wing, but the outside (Russia with its big military and the rest of the world which is growing its economy) is undermining Europe's security.
Call me Vox, the Resident Contrarian of debate.org.

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bsh1
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4/20/2015 3:34:04 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/20/2015 3:30:45 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 4/20/2015 3:13:51 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 4/20/2015 3:12:00 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 4/20/2015 2:42:26 PM, bsh1 wrote:
Really, only "mixed" nations succeed. Extreme and puritanical nations/models always collapse eventually.

I disagree. Many political models fail because they don't go all the way, which is sometimes worse than had they never started at all.
For instance, a nation where everyone adheres to Christianity and abides by the Christian moral code.

Can you give an example of a modern nation that went all the way and prospered? I also, keep in mind my comment was made in the context of economics, not theology.

Few, if any, have. And even if they did, the outside inhibits and undermines their efforts.
But if I were to name one, I'd have to say Iran. Iran has gone all the way in the Islamic direction. And if Islam is the true religion, then Allah should be very pleased indeed with Iran.

Notably, though, much of Iran's population doesn't hold the same extreme ideology as the Aytollah. I sincerely doubt that Islam is what makes it successful.

North Korea is just a joke.
Live Long and Prosper

I'm a Bish.


"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

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Vox_Veritas
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4/20/2015 3:38:33 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/20/2015 3:34:04 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 4/20/2015 3:30:45 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 4/20/2015 3:13:51 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 4/20/2015 3:12:00 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 4/20/2015 2:42:26 PM, bsh1 wrote:
Really, only "mixed" nations succeed. Extreme and puritanical nations/models always collapse eventually.

I disagree. Many political models fail because they don't go all the way, which is sometimes worse than had they never started at all.
For instance, a nation where everyone adheres to Christianity and abides by the Christian moral code.

Can you give an example of a modern nation that went all the way and prospered? I also, keep in mind my comment was made in the context of economics, not theology.

Few, if any, have. And even if they did, the outside inhibits and undermines their efforts.
But if I were to name one, I'd have to say Iran. Iran has gone all the way in the Islamic direction. And if Islam is the true religion, then Allah should be very pleased indeed with Iran.

In this case, it is the noncomforming population that is holding that Islamic idea back. If the populace doesn't want it then it shouldn't be subjected to extreme Islamic rule. But if there were an area where almost everyone wanted Islamic rule then Islam would be ideal for that country.

Notably, though, much of Iran's population doesn't hold the same extreme ideology as the Aytollah. I sincerely doubt that Islam is what makes it successful.

North Korea is just a joke.

Agreed
Call me Vox, the Resident Contrarian of debate.org.

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bsh1
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4/20/2015 3:40:12 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/20/2015 3:38:33 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 4/20/2015 3:34:04 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 4/20/2015 3:30:45 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 4/20/2015 3:13:51 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 4/20/2015 3:12:00 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 4/20/2015 2:42:26 PM, bsh1 wrote:
Really, only "mixed" nations succeed. Extreme and puritanical nations/models always collapse eventually.

I disagree. Many political models fail because they don't go all the way, which is sometimes worse than had they never started at all.
For instance, a nation where everyone adheres to Christianity and abides by the Christian moral code.

Can you give an example of a modern nation that went all the way and prospered? I also, keep in mind my comment was made in the context of economics, not theology.

Few, if any, have. And even if they did, the outside inhibits and undermines their efforts.
But if I were to name one, I'd have to say Iran. Iran has gone all the way in the Islamic direction. And if Islam is the true religion, then Allah should be very pleased indeed with Iran.

In this case, it is the noncomforming population that is holding that Islamic idea back. If the populace doesn't want it then it shouldn't be subjected to extreme Islamic rule. But if there were an area where almost everyone wanted Islamic rule then Islam would be ideal for that country.

My point is that most nations have elements that will disagree with the extremists, and that most people tend towards a mean. There really isn't any good example of an extreme but successful country.
Live Long and Prosper

I'm a Bish.


"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

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Vox_Veritas
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4/20/2015 3:51:46 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/20/2015 3:40:12 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 4/20/2015 3:38:33 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 4/20/2015 3:34:04 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 4/20/2015 3:30:45 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 4/20/2015 3:13:51 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 4/20/2015 3:12:00 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 4/20/2015 2:42:26 PM, bsh1 wrote:
Really, only "mixed" nations succeed. Extreme and puritanical nations/models always collapse eventually.

I disagree. Many political models fail because they don't go all the way, which is sometimes worse than had they never started at all.
For instance, a nation where everyone adheres to Christianity and abides by the Christian moral code.

Can you give an example of a modern nation that went all the way and prospered? I also, keep in mind my comment was made in the context of economics, not theology.

Few, if any, have. And even if they did, the outside inhibits and undermines their efforts.
But if I were to name one, I'd have to say Iran. Iran has gone all the way in the Islamic direction. And if Islam is the true religion, then Allah should be very pleased indeed with Iran.

In this case, it is the noncomforming population that is holding that Islamic idea back. If the populace doesn't want it then it shouldn't be subjected to extreme Islamic rule. But if there were an area where almost everyone wanted Islamic rule then Islam would be ideal for that country.

My point is that most nations have elements that will disagree with the extremists, and that most people tend towards a mean. There really isn't any good example of an extreme but successful country.

Okay then, I revise my statement. An ideology taken to its conclusion will not succeed if there's too much of:
1. A percentage of the population which is dissenting from the idea
2. External "contamination"/interference
Call me Vox, the Resident Contrarian of debate.org.

The DDO Blog:
https://debatedotorg.wordpress.com...

#drinkthecoffeenotthekoolaid
bsh1
Posts: 27,504
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4/20/2015 3:54:05 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/20/2015 3:51:46 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 4/20/2015 3:40:12 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 4/20/2015 3:38:33 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 4/20/2015 3:34:04 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 4/20/2015 3:30:45 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 4/20/2015 3:13:51 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 4/20/2015 3:12:00 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 4/20/2015 2:42:26 PM, bsh1 wrote:
Really, only "mixed" nations succeed. Extreme and puritanical nations/models always collapse eventually.

I disagree. Many political models fail because they don't go all the way, which is sometimes worse than had they never started at all.
For instance, a nation where everyone adheres to Christianity and abides by the Christian moral code.

Can you give an example of a modern nation that went all the way and prospered? I also, keep in mind my comment was made in the context of economics, not theology.

Few, if any, have. And even if they did, the outside inhibits and undermines their efforts.
But if I were to name one, I'd have to say Iran. Iran has gone all the way in the Islamic direction. And if Islam is the true religion, then Allah should be very pleased indeed with Iran.

In this case, it is the noncomforming population that is holding that Islamic idea back. If the populace doesn't want it then it shouldn't be subjected to extreme Islamic rule. But if there were an area where almost everyone wanted Islamic rule then Islam would be ideal for that country.

My point is that most nations have elements that will disagree with the extremists, and that most people tend towards a mean. There really isn't any good example of an extreme but successful country.

Okay then, I revise my statement. An ideology taken to its conclusion will not succeed if there's too much of:
1. A percentage of the population which is dissenting from the idea
2. External "contamination"/interference

In other words, it will succeed nowhere.
Live Long and Prosper

I'm a Bish.


"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

Follow the DDOlympics
: http://www.debate.org...

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Vox_Veritas
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4/20/2015 3:58:48 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/20/2015 3:54:05 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 4/20/2015 3:51:46 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 4/20/2015 3:40:12 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 4/20/2015 3:38:33 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 4/20/2015 3:34:04 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 4/20/2015 3:30:45 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 4/20/2015 3:13:51 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 4/20/2015 3:12:00 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 4/20/2015 2:42:26 PM, bsh1 wrote:
Really, only "mixed" nations succeed. Extreme and puritanical nations/models always collapse eventually.

I disagree. Many political models fail because they don't go all the way, which is sometimes worse than had they never started at all.
For instance, a nation where everyone adheres to Christianity and abides by the Christian moral code.

Can you give an example of a modern nation that went all the way and prospered? I also, keep in mind my comment was made in the context of economics, not theology.

Few, if any, have. And even if they did, the outside inhibits and undermines their efforts.
But if I were to name one, I'd have to say Iran. Iran has gone all the way in the Islamic direction. And if Islam is the true religion, then Allah should be very pleased indeed with Iran.

In this case, it is the noncomforming population that is holding that Islamic idea back. If the populace doesn't want it then it shouldn't be subjected to extreme Islamic rule. But if there were an area where almost everyone wanted Islamic rule then Islam would be ideal for that country.

My point is that most nations have elements that will disagree with the extremists, and that most people tend towards a mean. There really isn't any good example of an extreme but successful country.

Okay then, I revise my statement. An ideology taken to its conclusion will not succeed if there's too much of:
1. A percentage of the population which is dissenting from the idea
2. External "contamination"/interference

In other words, it will succeed nowhere.

In our current world with very few truly homogeneous areas (not necessarily in a racial sense), correct.
Call me Vox, the Resident Contrarian of debate.org.

The DDO Blog:
https://debatedotorg.wordpress.com...

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Mirza
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4/20/2015 4:08:20 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Why assume a conflict would be between two countries only? Right-wing nations compete among one another as well, and for strategic purposes, some could form an alliance with LW-nations and defend them. Your observation is really not an observation, but a scenario you proposed that seems highly unrealistic.
komododragon8
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4/21/2015 12:07:30 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/20/2015 2:29:03 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
-The implementation of Left-Wing economic ideas may result in the creation of a utopia where nobody's living in poverty and the businesses treat everyone well. However, in terms of sheer economic growth a capitalist nation typically will dominate. A Left-Wing economy will be comparatively small, and looked down upon as a failure.

-A true Left-Wing nation would not have a military, or its military would be quite small. That means a Right-Wing nation of equal status, with its big military, could crush the Left-Wing nation in a war.

Thus, I must conclude that the reason Left-Wing nations fail is because there are Right-Wing nations. You must remove all other nations that will "compete" with you in a contest that you cannot win.
This is not to say that Right-Wing nations are better. Living conditions might be better in the Left-Wing nations. But my point stands.
Any thoughts on my observation?

No where in the definition of left wing does it say there is little to no military. Also left wing does not mean anti capitalism, in fact most left wing economies (or just economies in general) are mixed economies incorperating market values with forms of goverment intervention (bans on cruel practices and the creation of infrastructure. Also the main ideas of left wing nations is liberty and freedom (this is what the left was centered on during its founding around the French Revolution) which means there will be less social oppression (the role of a government is to make sure its citizens are happy)
omanjoka
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4/21/2015 1:05:35 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/20/2015 2:29:03 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
-The implementation of Left-Wing economic ideas may result in the creation of a utopia where nobody's living in poverty and the businesses treat everyone well. However, in terms of sheer economic growth a capitalist nation typically will dominate. A Left-Wing economy will be comparatively small, and looked down upon as a failure.
In my opinion, a progressive, LW economy would have a much higher standard of living, with well tax funded regulation programs and better unions with bargaining power. This makes their populations richer on average, as opposed to the 1% owning half the wealth. Making it a more well rounded economy where everyone has a better opportunity to be successful.
-A true Left-Wing nation would not have a military, or its military would be quite small. That means a Right-Wing nation of equal status, with its big military, could crush the Left-Wing nation in a war.
What is a true LW nation?
Thus, I must conclude that the reason Left-Wing nations fail is because there are Right-Wing nations. You must remove all other nations that will "compete" with you in a contest that you cannot win.
This is not to say that Right-Wing nations are better. Living conditions might be better in the Left-Wing nations. But my point stands.
Any thoughts on my observation?
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"
-Epicurus.
Vox_Veritas
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4/21/2015 1:24:35 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/21/2015 12:07:30 PM, komododragon8 wrote:
At 4/20/2015 2:29:03 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
-The implementation of Left-Wing economic ideas may result in the creation of a utopia where nobody's living in poverty and the businesses treat everyone well. However, in terms of sheer economic growth a capitalist nation typically will dominate. A Left-Wing economy will be comparatively small, and looked down upon as a failure.

-A true Left-Wing nation would not have a military, or its military would be quite small. That means a Right-Wing nation of equal status, with its big military, could crush the Left-Wing nation in a war.

Thus, I must conclude that the reason Left-Wing nations fail is because there are Right-Wing nations. You must remove all other nations that will "compete" with you in a contest that you cannot win.
This is not to say that Right-Wing nations are better. Living conditions might be better in the Left-Wing nations. But my point stands.
Any thoughts on my observation?

No where in the definition of left wing does it say there is little to no military. Also left wing does not mean anti capitalism, in fact most left wing economies (or just economies in general) are mixed economies incorperating market values with forms of goverment intervention (bans on cruel practices and the creation of infrastructure. Also the main ideas of left wing nations is liberty and freedom (this is what the left was centered on during its founding around the French Revolution) which means there will be less social oppression (the role of a government is to make sure its citizens are happy)

A true Left-Wing nation would shun capitalism, as well as militaries. A truly egalitarian society is only possible through the one-ness, the same-ness, of human beings. Capitalism results in individualism, which a true Left-Wing person would be against.
Of course, the large majority of Left-Wing people don't have fully Left-Wing ideas. "Human Instrumentality Project", though fictional, is a good example of what true Left-Wing ideology would look like.

Do you want me to explain why a true Left-Wing nation would be anti-military (besides stuff like being Anti-War)?
Call me Vox, the Resident Contrarian of debate.org.

The DDO Blog:
https://debatedotorg.wordpress.com...

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Vox_Veritas
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4/21/2015 1:25:07 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/21/2015 1:05:35 PM, omanjoka wrote:
At 4/20/2015 2:29:03 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
-The implementation of Left-Wing economic ideas may result in the creation of a utopia where nobody's living in poverty and the businesses treat everyone well. However, in terms of sheer economic growth a capitalist nation typically will dominate. A Left-Wing economy will be comparatively small, and looked down upon as a failure.
In my opinion, a progressive, LW economy would have a much higher standard of living, with well tax funded regulation programs and better unions with bargaining power. This makes their populations richer on average, as opposed to the 1% owning half the wealth. Making it a more well rounded economy where everyone has a better opportunity to be successful.
-A true Left-Wing nation would not have a military, or its military would be quite small. That means a Right-Wing nation of equal status, with its big military, could crush the Left-Wing nation in a war.
What is a true LW nation?

A truly Egalitarian nation.

Thus, I must conclude that the reason Left-Wing nations fail is because there are Right-Wing nations. You must remove all other nations that will "compete" with you in a contest that you cannot win.
This is not to say that Right-Wing nations are better. Living conditions might be better in the Left-Wing nations. But my point stands.
Any thoughts on my observation?
Call me Vox, the Resident Contrarian of debate.org.

The DDO Blog:
https://debatedotorg.wordpress.com...

#drinkthecoffeenotthekoolaid
TBR
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4/21/2015 1:34:40 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
-The implementation of Left-Wing economic ideas may result in the creation of a utopia where nobody's living in poverty and the businesses treat everyone well.
Glad to see you know this.

However, in terms of sheer economic growth a capitalist nation typically will dominate. A Left-Wing economy will be comparatively small, and looked down upon as a failure.
If true, by whom? Not its citizens.


-A true Left-Wing nation would not have a military, or its military would be quite small. That means a Right-Wing nation of equal status, with its big military, could crush the Left-Wing nation in a war.
Defense is not counter to "left-wing". The aggressive nation you are describing attacking the non-aggressive "left" nation. What is the aggressive nation after? Just blood lust?


Thus, I must conclude that the reason Left-Wing nations fail is because there are Right-Wing nations. You must remove all other nations that will "compete" with you in a contest that you cannot win.
I disagree.

This is not to say that Right-Wing nations are better. Living conditions might be better in the Left-Wing nations. But my point stands.
Any thoughts on my observation?
komododragon8
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4/21/2015 1:40:39 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/21/2015 1:24:35 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 4/21/2015 12:07:30 PM, komododragon8 wrote:
At 4/20/2015 2:29:03 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
-The implementation of Left-Wing economic ideas may result in the creation of a utopia where nobody's living in poverty and the businesses treat everyone well. However, in terms of sheer economic growth a capitalist nation typically will dominate. A Left-Wing economy will be comparatively small, and looked down upon as a failure.

-A true Left-Wing nation would not have a military, or its military would be quite small. That means a Right-Wing nation of equal status, with its big military, could crush the Left-Wing nation in a war.

Thus, I must conclude that the reason Left-Wing nations fail is because there are Right-Wing nations. You must remove all other nations that will "compete" with you in a contest that you cannot win.
This is not to say that Right-Wing nations are better. Living conditions might be better in the Left-Wing nations. But my point stands.
Any thoughts on my observation?

No where in the definition of left wing does it say there is little to no military. Also left wing does not mean anti capitalism, in fact most left wing economies (or just economies in general) are mixed economies incorperating market values with forms of goverment intervention (bans on cruel practices and the creation of infrastructure. Also the main ideas of left wing nations is liberty and freedom (this is what the left was centered on during its founding around the French Revolution) which means there will be less social oppression (the role of a government is to make sure its citizens are happy)

A true Left-Wing nation would shun capitalism, as well as militaries. A truly egalitarian society is only possible through the one-ness, the same-ness, of human beings. Capitalism results in individualism, which a true Left-Wing person would be against.
Of course, the large majority of Left-Wing people don't have fully Left-Wing ideas. "Human Instrumentality Project", though fictional, is a good example of what true Left-Wing ideology would look like.

Do you want me to explain why a true Left-Wing nation would be anti-military (besides stuff like being Anti-War)?

And just who told you that left wingers have to be anti war, anti individualism, and anti capitalism. That is all just your interpretation of left wing ideals. While the left wing does promote egalitarianism, that is not anti-individualism, it is instead the idea that all people no matter the race, religion, class ext. all have the same equal rights and worth. Many left wing ideals actually promote individualism through ideas such as liberty which allows people to choose their own religion, their own partner, and their own culture.
omanjoka
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4/21/2015 1:56:56 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/21/2015 1:25:07 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
A truly Egalitarian nation.
So, an egalitarian nation, that has political, economical, gender, racial, and social equality can fail because of what again?
I agree that a nation with too much forced economic equality will fail, but not a nation that gives all its people equal opportunity. And as for having a strong defense force, I disagree with you.
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"
-Epicurus.
Vox_Veritas
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4/21/2015 2:01:41 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/21/2015 1:40:39 PM, komododragon8 wrote:
At 4/21/2015 1:24:35 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 4/21/2015 12:07:30 PM, komododragon8 wrote:
At 4/20/2015 2:29:03 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
-The implementation of Left-Wing economic ideas may result in the creation of a utopia where nobody's living in poverty and the businesses treat everyone well. However, in terms of sheer economic growth a capitalist nation typically will dominate. A Left-Wing economy will be comparatively small, and looked down upon as a failure.

-A true Left-Wing nation would not have a military, or its military would be quite small. That means a Right-Wing nation of equal status, with its big military, could crush the Left-Wing nation in a war.

Thus, I must conclude that the reason Left-Wing nations fail is because there are Right-Wing nations. You must remove all other nations that will "compete" with you in a contest that you cannot win.
This is not to say that Right-Wing nations are better. Living conditions might be better in the Left-Wing nations. But my point stands.
Any thoughts on my observation?

No where in the definition of left wing does it say there is little to no military. Also left wing does not mean anti capitalism, in fact most left wing economies (or just economies in general) are mixed economies incorperating market values with forms of goverment intervention (bans on cruel practices and the creation of infrastructure. Also the main ideas of left wing nations is liberty and freedom (this is what the left was centered on during its founding around the French Revolution) which means there will be less social oppression (the role of a government is to make sure its citizens are happy)

A true Left-Wing nation would shun capitalism, as well as militaries. A truly egalitarian society is only possible through the one-ness, the same-ness, of human beings. Capitalism results in individualism, which a true Left-Wing person would be against.
Of course, the large majority of Left-Wing people don't have fully Left-Wing ideas. "Human Instrumentality Project", though fictional, is a good example of what true Left-Wing ideology would look like.

Do you want me to explain why a true Left-Wing nation would be anti-military (besides stuff like being Anti-War)?

And just who told you that left wingers have to be anti war, anti individualism, and anti capitalism. That is all just your interpretation of left wing ideals. While the left wing does promote egalitarianism, that is not anti-individualism, it is instead the idea that all people no matter the race, religion, class ext. all have the same equal rights and worth. Many left wing ideals actually promote individualism through ideas such as liberty which allows people to choose their own religion, their own partner, and their own culture.

It's what Left-Wing ideology is.
For instance, a nation with a powerful army often uses that army to push other countries around. The idea of "all nations have equal rights" is violated by this. Under Capitalism, some people become wealthy while others fail in life and land at the bottom of society. This is Anti-Egalitarian. Freedom to make your own choices and differences in people will always result in inequality to some degree (usually a large degree).
This probably sounds extreme to you, and to most other Left-Wingers, perhaps because they don't hold on to Left-Wing ideology in its most pure form.
I'm not even attempting to attack Liberalism with this thread. I'm simply talking about the nature of pure Left-Wing ideology.
Call me Vox, the Resident Contrarian of debate.org.

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Vox_Veritas
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4/21/2015 2:03:16 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/21/2015 1:56:56 PM, omanjoka wrote:
At 4/21/2015 1:25:07 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
A truly Egalitarian nation.
So, an egalitarian nation, that has political, economical, gender, racial, and social equality can fail because of what again?
I agree that a nation with too much forced economic equality will fail, but not a nation that gives all its people equal opportunity. And as for having a strong defense force, I disagree with you.

A nation with equal legal rights for everyone (or nearly everyone, anyway) is not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about a society where everyone is equal, and not just legally.
Call me Vox, the Resident Contrarian of debate.org.

The DDO Blog:
https://debatedotorg.wordpress.com...

#drinkthecoffeenotthekoolaid
komododragon8
Posts: 405
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4/21/2015 2:27:44 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/21/2015 2:01:41 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 4/21/2015 1:40:39 PM, komododragon8 wrote:
At 4/21/2015 1:24:35 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 4/21/2015 12:07:30 PM, komododragon8 wrote:
At 4/20/2015 2:29:03 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
-The implementation of Left-Wing economic ideas may result in the creation of a utopia where nobody's living in poverty and the businesses treat everyone well. However, in terms of sheer economic growth a capitalist nation typically will dominate. A Left-Wing economy will be comparatively small, and looked down upon as a failure.

-A true Left-Wing nation would not have a military, or its military would be quite small. That means a Right-Wing nation of equal status, with its big military, could crush the Left-Wing nation in a war.

Thus, I must conclude that the reason Left-Wing nations fail is because there are Right-Wing nations. You must remove all other nations that will "compete" with you in a contest that you cannot win.
This is not to say that Right-Wing nations are better. Living conditions might be better in the Left-Wing nations. But my point stands.
Any thoughts on my observation?

No where in the definition of left wing does it say there is little to no military. Also left wing does not mean anti capitalism, in fact most left wing economies (or just economies in general) are mixed economies incorperating market values with forms of goverment intervention (bans on cruel practices and the creation of infrastructure. Also the main ideas of left wing nations is liberty and freedom (this is what the left was centered on during its founding around the French Revolution) which means there will be less social oppression (the role of a government is to make sure its citizens are happy)

A true Left-Wing nation would shun capitalism, as well as militaries. A truly egalitarian society is only possible through the one-ness, the same-ness, of human beings. Capitalism results in individualism, which a true Left-Wing person would be against.
Of course, the large majority of Left-Wing people don't have fully Left-Wing ideas. "Human Instrumentality Project", though fictional, is a good example of what true Left-Wing ideology would look like.

Do you want me to explain why a true Left-Wing nation would be anti-military (besides stuff like being Anti-War)?

And just who told you that left wingers have to be anti war, anti individualism, and anti capitalism. That is all just your interpretation of left wing ideals. While the left wing does promote egalitarianism, that is not anti-individualism, it is instead the idea that all people no matter the race, religion, class ext. all have the same equal rights and worth. Many left wing ideals actually promote individualism through ideas such as liberty which allows people to choose their own religion, their own partner, and their own culture.

It's what Left-Wing ideology is.
For instance, a nation with a powerful army often uses that army to push other countries around. The idea of "all nations have equal rights" is violated by this. Under Capitalism, some people become wealthy while others fail in life and land at the bottom of society. This is Anti-Egalitarian. Freedom to make your own choices and differences in people will always result in inequality to some degree (usually a large degree).
This probably sounds extreme to you, and to most other Left-Wingers, perhaps because they don't hold on to Left-Wing ideology in its most pure form.
I'm not even attempting to attack Liberalism with this thread. I'm simply talking about the nature of pure Left-Wing ideology.

Yes certain left wing extremists will be anti war, anti capitalist, and anti individaulism but those stem from their own interprestations of left wing ideals. Most left wing countries do not have these characteristics, they have markets, militaries, and huge numbers of freedoms which expand individualism. Every political ideology has its own extremists it all just depends on how you interpret the ideals.
omanjoka
Posts: 37
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4/21/2015 5:04:08 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/21/2015 2:03:16 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 4/21/2015 1:56:56 PM, omanjoka wrote:
At 4/21/2015 1:25:07 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
A truly Egalitarian nation.
So, an egalitarian nation, that has political, economical, gender, racial, and social equality can fail because of what again?
I agree that a nation with too much forced economic equality will fail, but not a nation that gives all its people equal opportunity. And as for having a strong defense force, I disagree with you.

A nation with equal legal rights for everyone (or nearly everyone, anyway) is not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about a society where everyone is equal, and not just legally.

So a nation where everyone is taxed the same, makes the same amount of money, and has the same ideas?
No capitalism, no greed.
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"
-Epicurus.
HououinKyouma
Posts: 1,030
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4/21/2015 7:37:59 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/20/2015 2:29:03 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
-The implementation of Left-Wing economic ideas may result in the creation of a utopia where nobody's living in poverty and the businesses treat everyone well. However, in terms of sheer economic growth a capitalist nation typically will dominate. A Left-Wing economy will be comparatively small, and looked down upon as a failure.

-A true Left-Wing nation would not have a military, or its military would be quite small. That means a Right-Wing nation of equal status, with its big military, could crush the Left-Wing nation in a war.

Thus, I must conclude that the reason Left-Wing nations fail is because there are Right-Wing nations. You must remove all other nations that will "compete" with you in a contest that you cannot win.
This is not to say that Right-Wing nations are better. Living conditions might be better in the Left-Wing nations. But my point stands.
Any thoughts on my observation?
-
First I want to address certain issues with your OP.

1) What do you mean by "True Left", without that we cannot really have a discussion.
2) You seem to believe that a bigger army must necessarily be the better one.
"Here the ways of men part: if you wish to strive for peace of soul and pleasure, then believe; if you wish to be a devotee of truth, then inquire." F. Nietzsche.

"Freedom is always freedom for the one who thinks differently." R. Luxemburg.

"The principle of the masochistic left is that, in general, two blacks make a white, half a loaf is the same as no bread." G. Orwell, paraphrase.

"Islamophobia is a word created by fascists, used by cowards, to manipulate morons". Andrew Cummins.
Alex_Zarvalas
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4/27/2015 9:11:53 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
I agree that many leftist nations have failed. But you know what question is just as scary as why left wing nations fail, why do right wing nations succeed?
Bennett91
Posts: 4,237
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4/27/2015 9:25:59 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/20/2015 2:29:03 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
-The implementation of Left-Wing economic ideas may result in the creation of a utopia where nobody's living in poverty and the businesses treat everyone well. However, in terms of sheer economic growth a capitalist nation typically will dominate. A Left-Wing economy will be comparatively small, and looked down upon as a failure.

Being perceived as a failure does not constitute as a failure. The Nordic countries have a higher standard of living than we do. They look down on us.

-A true Left-Wing nation would not have a military, or its military would be quite small. That means a Right-Wing nation of equal status, with its big military, could crush the Left-Wing nation in a war.

Not only is this not true, it just shows that right wing conservative ways of thinking, your way of thinking, is detrimental to world peace.

Thus, I must conclude that the reason Left-Wing nations fail is because there are Right-Wing nations. You must remove all other nations that will "compete" with you in a contest that you cannot win.

You judge failure based on the American standard which is wholly ignorant of other ways of life. High standards of living is something a country can brag about.

This is not to say that Right-Wing nations are better. Living conditions might be better in the Left-Wing nations. But my point stands.
Any thoughts on my observation?

You point seems pointless. Left wing nations don't fail and left wing countries can have formidably defensive militaries (japan for example). You dont seem to factor that because the US offers military protection to much of the world many of these countries choose to focus more on investing in the betterment of human lives rather than destroying it.
Fuzzed
Posts: 45
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4/28/2015 2:01:00 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/20/2015 2:29:03 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
-The implementation of Left-Wing economic ideas may result in the creation of a utopia where nobody's living in poverty and the businesses treat everyone well. However, in terms of sheer economic growth a capitalist nation typically will dominate. A Left-Wing economy will be comparatively small, and looked down upon as a failure.

-A true Left-Wing nation would not have a military, or its military would be quite small. That means a Right-Wing nation of equal status, with its big military, could crush the Left-Wing nation in a war.

Thus, I must conclude that the reason Left-Wing nations fail is because there are Right-Wing nations. You must remove all other nations that will "compete" with you in a contest that you cannot win.
This is not to say that Right-Wing nations are better. Living conditions might be better in the Left-Wing nations. But my point stands.
Any thoughts on my observation?

Yes I forget how Denmark, Sweden, Finland, Norway, etc.. all of them heavily socialist lefties (Sweden has over 50% tax on anyone making about 150K annually) have the best education systems, health systems, jail systems, lowest crime rates, happiest rated civilians, least poverty, etc.. cause their such terribly failures.