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"Taxation is theft"

debate_power
Posts: 726
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4/25/2015 4:01:46 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
What are your thoughts on this statement?

I personally believe that taxation cannot be considered theft if the choice to pay taxes is decided without the threat of imprisonment or death, or in other words if the taxpayer can choose to leave the taxed body at any time.
You can call me Mark if you like.
Chang29
Posts: 775
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4/25/2015 9:44:45 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/25/2015 4:01:46 PM, debate_power wrote:
What are your thoughts on this statement?

I personally believe that taxation cannot be considered theft if the choice to pay taxes is decided without the threat of imprisonment or death, or in other words if the taxpayer can choose to leave the taxed body at any time.

You state that "taxation cannot be considered theft if the choice to pay taxes is decided without the threat of imprisonment or death", most Americans were not alive when original tax laws were voted on. Are you stating that a person should have an option to opted out of being taxed by laws prior to voting age? If so I am with you. If not, what other definition can, money transferred under the threat of force have? Forced altruism, charity by coercion, or maybe giving back with a bayonet to the back.
A free market anti-capitalist

If it can be de-centralized, it will be de-centralized.
Fly
Posts: 2,621
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4/27/2015 9:49:22 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/25/2015 4:01:46 PM, debate_power wrote:
What are your thoughts on this statement?

I personally believe that taxation cannot be considered theft if the choice to pay taxes is decided without the threat of imprisonment or death, or in other words if the taxpayer can choose to leave the taxed body at any time.

It strikes me as a slogan from people who would rather whine and moan over modern society's requirements upon them rather than understand history, civilization, governance, and the social contract.

They are free to remove themselves from the societal grid or kill themselves trying, but in the end, they would rather pay taxes.
"If you say you pray to God, that makes you normal. But if you say you pray to God through your hair dryer, you are clearly a lunatic. I fail to see how the addition of a hairdryer makes the claim more ridiculous or offensive."
-Sam Harris
Leo1632
Posts: 7
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9/8/2017 9:52:29 PM
Posted: 1 week ago
At 4/25/2015 4:01:46 PM, debate_power wrote:
What are your thoughts on this statement?

I personally believe that taxation cannot be considered theft if the choice to pay taxes is decided without the threat of imprisonment or death, or in other words if the taxpayer can choose to leave the taxed body at any time.

It's definitely theft against those who don't want it, but just because it's theft doesn't mean it's wrong.
Lynx_N
Posts: 533
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9/9/2017 6:28:47 AM
Posted: 1 week ago
At 9/8/2017 9:52:29 PM, Leo1632 wrote:

It's definitely theft against those who don't want it, but just because it's theft doesn't mean it's wrong.

So, who were you and if you why were banned, why?
Or do you just have a thing for necro?
Bronto?
Congrats.
Kumbaya.
poet
Leo1632
Posts: 7
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9/9/2017 6:35:17 PM
Posted: 1 week ago
At 9/9/2017 6:28:47 AM, Lynx_N wrote:
At 9/8/2017 9:52:29 PM, Leo1632 wrote:

It's definitely theft against those who don't want it, but just because it's theft doesn't mean it's wrong.

So, who were you and if you why were banned, why?
Or do you just have a thing for necro?

Is this a poem?
Lynx_N
Posts: 533
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9/9/2017 6:39:35 PM
Posted: 1 week ago
At 9/9/2017 6:35:17 PM, Leo1632 wrote:
At 9/9/2017 6:28:47 AM, Lynx_N wrote:
At 9/8/2017 9:52:29 PM, Leo1632 wrote:

It's definitely theft against those who don't want it, but just because it's theft doesn't mean it's wrong.

So, who were you and if you why were banned, why?
Or do you just have a thing for necro?

Is this a poem?

No, they're questions.
Why necroposting?
Bronto?
Congrats.
Kumbaya.
poet
Leo1632
Posts: 7
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9/9/2017 7:06:12 PM
Posted: 1 week ago
At 9/9/2017 6:39:35 PM, Lynx_N wrote:
At 9/9/2017 6:35:17 PM, Leo1632 wrote:
At 9/9/2017 6:28:47 AM, Lynx_N wrote:
At 9/8/2017 9:52:29 PM, Leo1632 wrote:

It's definitely theft against those who don't want it, but just because it's theft doesn't mean it's wrong.

So, who were you and if you why were banned, why?
Or do you just have a thing for necro?

Is this a poem?

No, they're questions.
Why necroposting?

I understand the second question now. What should I do if I want to talk about this topic? And the first question is asking if I was banned. I'm new here, so no.
Lynx_N
Posts: 533
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9/9/2017 7:26:56 PM
Posted: 1 week ago
At 9/9/2017 7:06:12 PM, Leo1632 wrote:
At 9/9/2017 6:39:35 PM, Lynx_N wrote:
At 9/9/2017 6:35:17 PM, Leo1632 wrote:
At 9/9/2017 6:28:47 AM, Lynx_N wrote:
At 9/8/2017 9:52:29 PM, Leo1632 wrote:

It's definitely theft against those who don't want it, but just because it's theft doesn't mean it's wrong.

So, who were you and if you why were banned, why?
Or do you just have a thing for necro?

Is this a poem?

No, they're questions.
Why necroposting?

I understand the second question now. What should I do if I want to talk about this topic? And the first question is asking if I was banned. I'm new here, so no.

So, you did you due diligence then and found 1 8 year old thread and 1 merely 2 years old, both of which you responded to. Why not start a brand new thread on this subject then? I'm sure circumstances regarding this taxation issue (?) has changed over the years. But I digress, good luck to you.
Bronto?
Congrats.
Kumbaya.
poet
TheMarketLibertarian
Posts: 341
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9/9/2017 7:29:01 PM
Posted: 1 week ago
At 4/27/2015 9:49:22 AM, Fly wrote:
At 4/25/2015 4:01:46 PM, debate_power wrote:
What are your thoughts on this statement?

I personally believe that taxation cannot be considered theft if the choice to pay taxes is decided without the threat of imprisonment or death, or in other words if the taxpayer can choose to leave the taxed body at any time.

It strikes me as a slogan from people who would rather whine and moan over modern society's requirements upon them rather than understand history, civilization, governance, and the social contract.

They are free to remove themselves from the societal grid or kill themselves trying, but in the end, they would rather pay taxes.

Suppose I claimed that the town you live in belongs to me and you must either pay me a ransom or move out- you being able to move does not diminish the fact that my demands would be illegitimate.

Our Founding Fathers set up a tax system totally different than the one set up today- and the income tax is antithetical to that. As a matter of fact, it was struck down by the Supreme Court as unconstitutional twice- that's why they passed an Amendment.
Leo1632
Posts: 7
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9/9/2017 7:34:33 PM
Posted: 1 week ago
At 9/9/2017 7:26:56 PM, Lynx_N wrote:
At 9/9/2017 7:06:12 PM, Leo1632 wrote:
At 9/9/2017 6:39:35 PM, Lynx_N wrote:
At 9/9/2017 6:35:17 PM, Leo1632 wrote:
At 9/9/2017 6:28:47 AM, Lynx_N wrote:
At 9/8/2017 9:52:29 PM, Leo1632 wrote:

It's definitely theft against those who don't want it, but just because it's theft doesn't mean it's wrong.

So, who were you and if you why were banned, why?
Or do you just have a thing for necro?

Is this a poem?

No, they're questions.
Why necroposting?

I understand the second question now. What should I do if I want to talk about this topic? And the first question is asking if I was banned. I'm new here, so no.

So, you did you due diligence then and found 1 8 year old thread and 1 merely 2 years old, both of which you responded to. Why not start a brand new thread on this subject then? I'm sure circumstances regarding this taxation issue (?) has changed over the years. But I digress, good luck to you.

Thanks for pointing me in the right direction. Will heed your advice. :0)
Fly
Posts: 2,621
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9/9/2017 7:56:59 PM
Posted: 1 week ago
At 9/9/2017 7:29:01 PM, TheMarketLibertarian wrote:
At 4/27/2015 9:49:22 AM, Fly wrote:
At 4/25/2015 4:01:46 PM, debate_power wrote:
What are your thoughts on this statement?

I personally believe that taxation cannot be considered theft if the choice to pay taxes is decided without the threat of imprisonment or death, or in other words if the taxpayer can choose to leave the taxed body at any time.

It strikes me as a slogan from people who would rather whine and moan over modern society's requirements upon them rather than understand history, civilization, governance, and the social contract.

They are free to remove themselves from the societal grid or kill themselves trying, but in the end, they would rather pay taxes.

Whew! Blast from the past! Anyhoo...

Suppose I claimed that the town you live in belongs to me and you must either pay me a ransom or move out- you being able to move does not diminish the fact that my demands would be illegitimate.

This is a feeble analogy as it merely sets up a tautology-- you suppose an illegitimate premise and then state that the demands of that premise are also illegitimate. That is neither profound nor compelling.

Also, ransom is money paid to release one from unlawful detention, not at all what we are talking about here.

Our Founding Fathers set up a tax system totally different than the one set up today- and the income tax is antithetical to that. As a matter of fact, it was struck down by the Supreme Court as unconstitutional twice- that's why they passed an Amendment.

You will have to show where any founder stated that "taxation is theft" in the new country they founded. They also made amendments very difficult to pass for a reason-- to assure the... legitimacy of such an alteration.

But the subject is all tax, not just income tax.
"If you say you pray to God, that makes you normal. But if you say you pray to God through your hair dryer, you are clearly a lunatic. I fail to see how the addition of a hairdryer makes the claim more ridiculous or offensive."
-Sam Harris
ViceRegent
Posts: 813
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9/9/2017 8:40:22 PM
Posted: 1 week ago
Yes, taxation is theft. It should be abolished. But liberal use theft to control people and to buy votes. They will never allow people to be free.
Leo1632
Posts: 7
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9/9/2017 8:48:58 PM
Posted: 1 week ago
At 9/9/2017 7:56:59 PM, Fly wrote:
At 9/9/2017 7:29:01 PM, TheMarketLibertarian wrote:
At 4/27/2015 9:49:22 AM, Fly wrote:
At 4/25/2015 4:01:46 PM, debate_power wrote:
What are your thoughts on this statement?

I personally believe that taxation cannot be considered theft if the choice to pay taxes is decided without the threat of imprisonment or death, or in other words if the taxpayer can choose to leave the taxed body at any time.

It strikes me as a slogan from people who would rather whine and moan over modern society's requirements upon them rather than understand history, civilization, governance, and the social contract.

They are free to remove themselves from the societal grid or kill themselves trying, but in the end, they would rather pay taxes.

Whew! Blast from the past! Anyhoo...

Suppose I claimed that the town you live in belongs to me and you must either pay me a ransom or move out- you being able to move does not diminish the fact that my demands would be illegitimate.

This is a feeble analogy as it merely sets up a tautology-- you suppose an illegitimate premise and then state that the demands of that premise are also illegitimate. That is neither profound nor compelling.

Also, ransom is money paid to release one from unlawful detention, not at all what we are talking about here.

Our Founding Fathers set up a tax system totally different than the one set up today- and the income tax is antithetical to that. As a matter of fact, it was struck down by the Supreme Court as unconstitutional twice- that's why they passed an Amendment.

You will have to show where any founder stated that "taxation is theft" in the new country they founded. They also made amendments very difficult to pass for a reason-- to assure the... legitimacy of such an alteration.

But the subject is all tax, not just income tax.

I don't think taxation is theft against the people that want it, but, at least at the inception of a government, I believe taxation is theft against those who don't want to be taxed.
Udel2
Posts: 387
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9/12/2017 11:47:59 PM
Posted: 1 week ago
It depends how you define it. Taxes can be unfair but not theft if you get something out of it. The thing about taxes is that you always get something out of it, even if it's not immediate or obvious to you.
Ramshutu
Posts: 4,982
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9/12/2017 11:54:03 PM
Posted: 1 week ago
At 4/25/2015 4:01:46 PM, debate_power wrote:
What are your thoughts on this statement?

I personally believe that taxation cannot be considered theft if the choice to pay taxes is decided without the threat of imprisonment or death, or in other words if the taxpayer can choose to leave the taxed body at any time.

The taxation is theft thing is just nonsense.

Society itself is a service, and tax is the fee you pay for that service. Government is a way of letting the people decide how much the fee is and what it's spent on; and if you don't want to pay tax, you have the option of not using that service: specifically by not using the service to earn a salary in a currency the society (or others) allows and manages.
kevin24018
Posts: 3,468
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9/13/2017 12:42:02 PM
Posted: 1 week ago
At 9/12/2017 11:47:59 PM, Udel2 wrote:
It depends how you define it. Taxes can be unfair but not theft if you get something out of it. The thing about taxes is that you always get something out of it, even if it's not immediate or obvious to you.

sure even if you don't want to, gotcha, so they should take more for that same reason, why not take it all?
kevin24018
Posts: 3,468
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9/13/2017 12:44:05 PM
Posted: 1 week ago
At 9/12/2017 11:47:59 PM, Udel2 wrote:
It depends how you define it. Taxes can be unfair but not theft if you get something out of it. The thing about taxes is that you always get something out of it, even if it's not immediate or obvious to you.

the terms are and have been defined, are you saying it's ok to take something that doesn't belong to you, even by force if it's for the good of the person or society?
sure even if you don't want to, gotcha, so they should take more for that same reason, why not take it all?
Danielle
Posts: 25,321
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9/13/2017 8:45:36 PM
Posted: 1 week ago
At 4/25/2015 4:01:46 PM, debate_power wrote::
I personally believe that taxation cannot be considered theft if the choice to pay taxes is decided without the threat of imprisonment or death, or in other words if the taxpayer can choose to leave the taxed body at any time.

It costs $2,350 to renounce U.S. citizenship.
dairygirl4u2c
Posts: 83
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9/13/2017 8:52:13 PM
Posted: 1 week ago
allowing people to starve or go without healthcare, is theft. in the real world, people who are down on their luck will do whatever is necessary to live and get by. that means going out and panting corn and harvesting apples from trees. but our laws prevent this. our social construct forces people into death or prison.

violence is inherent in the system, you just have to pick a side. do you want to focus on the rich, or poor?
Danielle
Posts: 25,321
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9/13/2017 8:58:56 PM
Posted: 1 week ago
The only thing that separates taxation from theft is the legality of it.

Theft is taking someone's property (money) without that person's explicit permission or consent. The argument that by choosing to reside in the U.S. one automatically consents to carte blanche theft, so long as it's legal, does not withstand logical scrutiny. It means something can transition from theft >> legal taxation via tyranny of the majority or by other people's preference for a certain kind of governance to which an individual does not explicitly consent.

That said, anyone who accepts property rights / capitalism automatically submits to some aspects of social contract theory. Property rights are not an inherent part of nature, which concedes an element of coercion to establish a productive and just society (government). So once you accept property, you accept governance, which functions best with government, which requires security/taxation.

There are many good reasons to keep taxes to a minimal.
Greyparrot
Posts: 17,564
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9/13/2017 9:07:38 PM
Posted: 1 week ago
At 9/13/2017 8:45:36 PM, Danielle wrote:
At 4/25/2015 4:01:46 PM, debate_power wrote::
I personally believe that taxation cannot be considered theft if the choice to pay taxes is decided without the threat of imprisonment or death, or in other words if the taxpayer can choose to leave the taxed body at any time.

It costs $2,350 to renounce U.S. citizenship.

Couldn't you just declare yourself "undocumented?"
I find myself intrigued by your subvocal oscillations.
A singular development of cat communications
That obviates your basic hedonistic predilection,
For a rhythmic stroking of your fur to demonstrate affection.
Danielle
Posts: 25,321
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9/13/2017 9:14:22 PM
Posted: 1 week ago
At 9/13/2017 8:52:13 PM, dairygirl4u2c wrote:
allowing people to starve or go without healthcare, is theft.

No, it really isn't.
kevin24018
Posts: 3,468
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9/14/2017 2:46:55 PM
Posted: 6 days ago
At 9/13/2017 9:07:38 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 9/13/2017 8:45:36 PM, Danielle wrote:
At 4/25/2015 4:01:46 PM, debate_power wrote::
I personally believe that taxation cannot be considered theft if the choice to pay taxes is decided without the threat of imprisonment or death, or in other words if the taxpayer can choose to leave the taxed body at any time.

It costs $2,350 to renounce U.S. citizenship.

Couldn't you just declare yourself "undocumented?"

Greyparrot Thug Life
Greyparrot
Posts: 17,564
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9/14/2017 3:31:20 PM
Posted: 6 days ago
At 9/14/2017 2:46:55 PM, kevin24018 wrote:
At 9/13/2017 9:07:38 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 9/13/2017 8:45:36 PM, Danielle wrote:
At 4/25/2015 4:01:46 PM, debate_power wrote::
I personally believe that taxation cannot be considered theft if the choice to pay taxes is decided without the threat of imprisonment or death, or in other words if the taxpayer can choose to leave the taxed body at any time.

It costs $2,350 to renounce U.S. citizenship.

Couldn't you just declare yourself "undocumented?"

Greyparrot Thug Life

Well..I mean...it's not like declaring yourself undocumented is putting you in any jeopardy of felony tax evasion charges... if they can't find you, no harm no foul, right?
I find myself intrigued by your subvocal oscillations.
A singular development of cat communications
That obviates your basic hedonistic predilection,
For a rhythmic stroking of your fur to demonstrate affection.
kevin24018
Posts: 3,468
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9/14/2017 3:37:16 PM
Posted: 6 days ago
At 9/14/2017 3:31:20 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 9/14/2017 2:46:55 PM, kevin24018 wrote:
At 9/13/2017 9:07:38 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 9/13/2017 8:45:36 PM, Danielle wrote:
At 4/25/2015 4:01:46 PM, debate_power wrote::
I personally believe that taxation cannot be considered theft if the choice to pay taxes is decided without the threat of imprisonment or death, or in other words if the taxpayer can choose to leave the taxed body at any time.

It costs $2,350 to renounce U.S. citizenship.

Couldn't you just declare yourself "undocumented?"

Greyparrot Thug Life

Well..I mean...it's not like declaring yourself undocumented is putting you in any jeopardy of felony tax evasion charges... if they can't find you, no harm no foul, right?

yeah especially in certain states, and in some you can still vote in the local elections, what is the real down side.....
Death23
Posts: 1,025
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9/15/2017 2:33:46 AM
Posted: 6 days ago
At 4/25/2015 4:01:46 PM, debate_power wrote:
What are your thoughts on this statement?

I personally believe that taxation cannot be considered theft if the choice to pay taxes is decided without the threat of imprisonment or death, or in other words if the taxpayer can choose to leave the taxed body at any time.

Taxation and theft have many of the same qualities, but taxation isn't theft because the overwhelming majority of English speakers do not consider it to be. This is like saying that abortion is murder. It's a language issue rather than a rational one. "Theft" is a word, and words have subjective meanings for each of us but we can communicate well enough so long as the definitions within our minds are for the most part consistent from one person to the next.