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Why is rape a political issue?

thett3
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4/29/2015 4:57:29 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
It seems that every day on political websites of both sides, rape, in particular college campus rape, is debated as if it were a political issue. The statistics and specific stories in particular...I'm not saying these things shouldn't be debated, necessarily, but why the political subtext? Why is it that every conservative site/article attempts to minimize the problem, and liberal ones to exaggerate it? How did our discourse fall to the level where rape of all things is a hot button issue?
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bsh1
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4/29/2015 5:00:04 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/29/2015 4:57:29 PM, thett3 wrote:
It seems that every day on political websites of both sides, rape, in particular college campus rape, is debated as if it were a political issue. The statistics and specific stories in particular...I'm not saying these things shouldn't be debated, necessarily, but why the political subtext? Why is it that every conservative site/article attempts to minimize the problem, and liberal ones to exaggerate it? How did our discourse fall to the level where rape of all things is a hot button issue?

Well, at the risk of being political, I would suggest that the liberal sites don't actually exaggerate the problem.

That being said, humanity is a political animal. It is hard for us NOT to politicize things. There is perhaps no issue I can think of that wasn't at one time political. That may be a sad statement, but it is through politicizing things that dialogue is generated and solutions are pursued.
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1harderthanyouthink
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4/29/2015 5:00:57 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/29/2015 4:57:29 PM, thett3 wrote:
It seems that every day on political websites of both sides, rape, in particular college campus rape, is debated as if it were a political issue. The statistics and specific stories in particular...I'm not saying these things shouldn't be debated, necessarily, but why the political subtext? Why is it that every conservative site/article attempts to minimize the problem, and liberal ones to exaggerate it? How did our discourse fall to the level where rape of all things is a hot button issue?

Extreme views = more hits
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thett3
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4/29/2015 5:07:16 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/29/2015 5:00:04 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 4/29/2015 4:57:29 PM, thett3 wrote:
It seems that every day on political websites of both sides, rape, in particular college campus rape, is debated as if it were a political issue. The statistics and specific stories in particular...I'm not saying these things shouldn't be debated, necessarily, but why the political subtext? Why is it that every conservative site/article attempts to minimize the problem, and liberal ones to exaggerate it? How did our discourse fall to the level where rape of all things is a hot button issue?

Well, at the risk of being political, I would suggest that the liberal sites don't actually exaggerate the problem.

They certainly exaggerate the numbers--think of the 1 in 5 college women are raped statistic that is oft quoted, even to the point where president Obama himself has cited it that is, at the very least, problematic (http://www.washingtonpost.com...). That doesn't mean it isn't a problem...it is. But ignore that. My point is, this is being treated as a political issue on all sides. What you said below has an element of truth to it, but there's way less politicizing of any crime compared to rape. Why? How did sexual assault become a political issue...it's pretty sick

That being said, humanity is a political animal. It is hard for us NOT to politicize things. There is perhaps no issue I can think of that wasn't at one time political. That may be a sad statement, but it is through politicizing things that dialogue is generated and solutions are pursued.
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"Don't quote me, ever." -Max

"My name is max. I'm not a big fan of slacks"- Max rapping

"Walmart should have the opportunity to bribe a politician to it's agenda" -Max

"Thett, you're really good at convincing people you're a decent person"-tulle

"You fit the character of Regina George quite nicely"- Sam

: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
FreedomBeforeEquality
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4/29/2015 5:15:01 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/29/2015 4:57:29 PM, thett3 wrote:
It seems that every day on political websites of both sides, rape, in particular college campus rape, is debated as if it were a political issue. The statistics and specific stories in particular...I'm not saying these things shouldn't be debated, necessarily, but why the political subtext? Why is it that every conservative site/article attempts to minimize the problem, and liberal ones to exaggerate it? How did our discourse fall to the level where rape of all things is a hot button issue?

Pretty sure its not the issue of rape that is debated ... all agree its bad. Its the solution that becomes political. Certain people think the gov't should get involved more than just through the good ol' legal process. Then theres the offspring abortion issue. Its just intertwined in a couple other issues ... so it makes it on the list by default.
YYW
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4/29/2015 5:34:27 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/29/2015 4:57:29 PM, thett3 wrote:
It seems that every day on political websites of both sides, rape, in particular college campus rape, is debated as if it were a political issue. The statistics and specific stories in particular...I'm not saying these things shouldn't be debated, necessarily, but why the political subtext? Why is it that every conservative site/article attempts to minimize the problem, and liberal ones to exaggerate it? How did our discourse fall to the level where rape of all things is a hot button issue?

Rape is a hot button issue because it cuts deep into the ongoing culture war that exists between feminists/progressives and people who hold more conservative views on gender norms.

As a disclimer (which I know now is necessary because as soon as I post this dumb people are going to say equally dumb things because they won't read what I'm saying), I am NOT saying that all conservatives are sexists or that all feminists/progressives hold aggressive and irrational views about female sexuality. But there are vocal mouthpieces on both sides that say and do stupid things which not only aggravate the issue, but actively hinder its resolution.

Part I: Feminists, Progressives, and the Girl at Columbia With the Mattress

Feminists, at the core of the issue, want equal treatment for women. Specifically, they want to enjoy equal power in the way of sexual relations with men; meaning that they want to be bring female sexuality out of the patriarchally compartmentalized and stigmatized position that it's in now, and be more liberal in the way of expressing it. That's fine and acceptable (by a reasonable objective standard).

BUT, while the goal itself is fine and acceptable, the method of achieving that goal is... hardly universally accepted. You've got teenage boys and young men in their 20s and 30s who have stupid ideas about sex and relationships where they want someone to control, and they don't view women as "co-equal halves of humanity" and more as "things to be fvcked." Heteronormative male culture aggravates this.

So, when you've got a situation like a sexual assault at Columbia, and a girl who carries a mattress around who makes grandiose gestures in the way of attracting awareness to the issue, those men who hold the "things to be fvcked" view of women have that view strengthened because they think the gesture is grandiose and ridiculous. Whether carrying around a mattress is or is not acceptable is not the issue; what matters is HOW THAT GESTURE IS PERCEIVED BY PEOPLE WHOSE VIEW OF WOMEN GIVES RISE TO THE PROBLEM.

(Capitalization not because I'm yelling, but because I want to stress that this is the important point.)

Part II: Men and Stupid Ideas about Women

Men have stupid ideas about women, and the reasons for that are voluminous. It goes back to cultural norms that have been inherited over generations of sexism... but articulating the substance of how the status quo in which we live came to be is less relevant than acknowledging what the status quo is.

The status quo of how many straight men (aged 13-30) view women is the "things to be fvcked" school of thought. Men reinforce that idea by regarding sex as an act of power being exercised dominantly over another; if sex is a conquest then men are conquerers of female sexuality. It'e really simple... and stupid. Profoundly stupid... but that's how many straight guys think. (Further disclaimer: Now, I don't have a problem with people doing kinky sh!t. That's fine... but that's totally distinct from what I'm talking about. What I'm talking about is a totalizing view of women as a class of people; not a sexual fetish that people want to satisfy. So, don't be dumb and confuse kinks with what I'm taking about.)

Part III: The intersection of "Part I" and "Part II"

This is where it gets nasty... and not in a sexual way. In a cultural depravity way. When men who view women as objects/property/subjects to be conquered see women who are asserting themselves in any way that is inconsistent with the male worldview I described above, that elicits a certain resentment and outrage.

The rule is this: To the extent that women, as women, exert their rights or challenge their status that was conferred upon them by men who do not view women as their equals, those same men will challenge the challenge.

The problem is that while, at the core of it all, progressives/feminists/etc. want the right thing, there are a lot of them that go about that in really stupid ways (where the metric of "stupidity" is "the extent to which doing the thing you're doing either does not achieve or is counterproductive to the result you're trying to effectuate).

The goal, more or less, is or ought to be to bring about a cultural change. The problem is that that's not really how it works. When you've got girls who say things that lead to ostentatious and ethically offensive results (even by feminist standards) like "any girl who has sex while intoxicated is necessarily raped because she couldn't consent" in a situation where the guy was just as drunk as the girl, those people are necessarily reinforcing the idea that women are objects to be exploited rather than co-equal moral agents/actors/etc.

So, you've got a situation where the "anti-rape-culture" movement wants it both ways: On the one hand, they want to capitalize on the fact that sexual assaults happen on many circumstances but they want to argue that no girl is ever culpable in putting herself in a situation where a reasonably foreseeable result (read: having sex while blackout drunk, for example) actually comes to pass. If that's the case, then girls are nothing more than the passive victims of male exploitation. But, you've also got a situation where the "anti-rape-culture" movement wants ---on the other hand--- to claim that women are and ought to be teated as co-equal members of society who are just as [insert all adjectives which apply] as men.

Catch the contradiction?

Part: The Last

I'm not saying that this weird/crazy double-speak is the actual cause of why rape is a political issue; the cause is our societal norms with regard to female sexuality. The reason it's ***still*** an issue (read: the causes hindering resolution of it) is the fact that feminists have thus far failed to actually change how men see women, and in many cases the stuff they do only aggravates the issue further.
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dylancatlow
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4/29/2015 5:41:03 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/29/2015 5:07:16 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 4/29/2015 5:00:04 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 4/29/2015 4:57:29 PM, thett3 wrote:
It seems that every day on political websites of both sides, rape, in particular college campus rape, is debated as if it were a political issue. The statistics and specific stories in particular...I'm not saying these things shouldn't be debated, necessarily, but why the political subtext? Why is it that every conservative site/article attempts to minimize the problem, and liberal ones to exaggerate it? How did our discourse fall to the level where rape of all things is a hot button issue?

Well, at the risk of being political, I would suggest that the liberal sites don't actually exaggerate the problem.

They certainly exaggerate the numbers--think of the 1 in 5 college women are raped statistic that is oft quoted, even to the point where president Obama himself has cited it that is, at the very least, problematic (http://www.washingtonpost.com...). That doesn't mean it isn't a problem...it is. But ignore that. My point is, this is being treated as a political issue on all sides. What you said below has an element of truth to it, but there's way less politicizing of any crime compared to rape. Why? How did sexual assault become a political issue...it's pretty sick

That being said, humanity is a political animal. It is hard for us NOT to politicize things. There is perhaps no issue I can think of that wasn't at one time political. That may be a sad statement, but it is through politicizing things that dialogue is generated and solutions are pursued.

1 in 5? LOL
dylancatlow
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4/29/2015 5:56:20 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/29/2015 4:57:29 PM, thett3 wrote:
It seems that every day on political websites of both sides, rape, in particular college campus rape, is debated as if it were a political issue. The statistics and specific stories in particular...I'm not saying these things shouldn't be debated, necessarily, but why the political subtext? Why is it that every conservative site/article attempts to minimize the problem, and liberal ones to exaggerate it? How did our discourse fall to the level where rape of all things is a hot button issue?

Quite simply, conservatives are resistant to admitting there's a problem because that usually means social change, whereas liberals are eager to find social problems. Furthermore, conservatives tend not to favor the underdog (women, minorities, poor people, etc) whereas liberals do.
Vox_Veritas
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4/29/2015 5:57:02 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Our society should, in my opinion, handle the rape issue in two ways:
First of all, society should encourage women to report rape, so that there aren't countless unreported cases. Second, society should take a fair view of what does and doesn't constitute rape. If a dude at the workplace grabs a female coworker in the butt, that's sexual harassment, but it's NOT sexual assault or rape. Also, if two drunk people have sex, the woman can't really call rape anymore than the man can. (as YYW mentioned). Also, if just the woman is drunk but she consentingly has sex with a sober man, that's not rape either.
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dylancatlow
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4/29/2015 5:58:58 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/29/2015 5:00:04 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 4/29/2015 4:57:29 PM, thett3 wrote:
It seems that every day on political websites of both sides, rape, in particular college campus rape, is debated as if it were a political issue. The statistics and specific stories in particular...I'm not saying these things shouldn't be debated, necessarily, but why the political subtext? Why is it that every conservative site/article attempts to minimize the problem, and liberal ones to exaggerate it? How did our discourse fall to the level where rape of all things is a hot button issue?

Well, at the risk of being political, I would suggest that the liberal sites don't actually exaggerate the problem.


When's the last time the media didn't sensationalize an issue?
bluesteel
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4/29/2015 7:29:40 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/29/2015 4:57:29 PM, thett3 wrote:
It seems that every day on political websites of both sides, rape, in particular college campus rape, is debated as if it were a political issue. The statistics and specific stories in particular...I'm not saying these things shouldn't be debated, necessarily, but why the political subtext? Why is it that every conservative site/article attempts to minimize the problem, and liberal ones to exaggerate it? How did our discourse fall to the level where rape of all things is a hot button issue?

Because rape implicates views of gender norms that are inherently political, e.g. the beliefs that women who dress provocatively deserve it, that most rape accusations are fabricated, that date rape isn't so bad because the woman was flirting. All involve moral judgments that tie into politics.

If you hear about a particular rape, the question is whether you believe the victim. If you hear about a widespread and general problem of rape on college campuses, the question is whether you believe victims in general (which implicates stereotypes because it's not a particularized inquiry).
You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into - Jonathan Swift (paraphrase)
bluesteel
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4/29/2015 7:37:07 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/29/2015 4:57:29 PM, thett3 wrote:


Oh and let's not forget the persistent myth (that you see in this thread) that a single drop of alcohol in a woman converts consensual sex to rape, so that's where all these rape stats come from. That's not remotely how the law operates. The law requires consent, and a woman has to be drunk to the point she can't consent for it to be rape based solely on the alcohol, meaning she's either blacked out or passed out.

I've learned everything is a political issue. If you believe in evolution (e.g. that dogs evolved from wolves), apparently that's a political issue.
You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into - Jonathan Swift (paraphrase)
1harderthanyouthink
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4/29/2015 7:46:49 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/29/2015 5:57:02 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
Our society should, in my opinion, handle the rape issue in two ways:
First of all, society should encourage women to report rape, so that there aren't countless unreported cases. Second, society should take a fair view of what does and doesn't constitute rape. If a dude at the workplace grabs a female coworker in the butt, that's sexual harassment, but it's NOT sexual assault or rape.

"Sexual assault is any type of sexual contact or behavior that occurs without the explicit consent of the recipient. Falling under the definition of sexual assault are sexual activities as forced sexual intercourse, forcible sodomy, child molestation, incest, fondling, and attempted rape."

-US Department of Justice [1]

"Fondling" - "to touch (someone) in a sexual way"; "to show affection or desire by caressing"

So yes, a guy grabbing a woman's butt in the workplace could be considered sexual assault.

[1] http://www.justice.gov...

Also, if two drunk people have sex, the woman can't really call rape anymore than the man can. (as YYW mentioned). Also, if just the woman is drunk but she consentingly has sex with a sober man, that's not rape either.

The idea behind that is that a drunk person cannot really consent to sex as if they were of sound mind - so the sober person could be taking advantage of that.
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dylancatlow
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4/29/2015 8:36:43 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/29/2015 7:37:07 PM, bluesteel wrote:
At 4/29/2015 4:57:29 PM, thett3 wrote:

Oh and let's not forget the persistent myth (that you see in this thread) that a single drop of alcohol in a woman converts consensual sex to rape, so that's where all these rape stats come from. That's not remotely how the law operates. The law requires consent, and a woman has to be drunk to the point she can't consent for it to be rape based solely on the alcohol, meaning she's either blacked out or passed out.

I've learned everything is a political issue. If you believe in evolution (e.g. that dogs evolved from wolves), apparently that's a political issue.

They even consider it rape when a man pressures a women into having sex, which is ridiculous.
Khaos_Mage
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4/29/2015 9:35:16 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/29/2015 4:57:29 PM, thett3 wrote:
It seems that every day on political websites of both sides, rape, in particular college campus rape, is debated as if it were a political issue. The statistics and specific stories in particular...I'm not saying these things shouldn't be debated, necessarily, but why the political subtext? Why is it that every conservative site/article attempts to minimize the problem, and liberal ones to exaggerate it? How did our discourse fall to the level where rape of all things is a hot button issue?

Did somebody say rape?!?
*Poof* I appear.

Because of what rape is, is why it is a hot button issue.
For the Conservatives, rape deals with sex and contract (which is what consent is) and an effort to keep private affairs private is made.
For liberals, it is an emotional fight on two levels, one, the obvious rape being bad angle, and second, to fight the "war on women" that the right perpetrate.

Ever notice that when these groups talk about rape, it seems, they don't talk about the same thing? Maybe it isn't that unique to rape, but the bottom line, it is political, because it is a matter of law.

Sex, after all, is rape without a victim. In other words, I can violate you intimately, and it is only legal if you say so, and the law agrees that you can make said decision.
My work here is, finally, done.
Zarroette
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4/30/2015 5:39:21 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/29/2015 5:00:04 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 4/29/2015 4:57:29 PM, thett3 wrote:
It seems that every day on political websites of both sides, rape, in particular college campus rape, is debated as if it were a political issue. The statistics and specific stories in particular...I'm not saying these things shouldn't be debated, necessarily, but why the political subtext? Why is it that every conservative site/article attempts to minimize the problem, and liberal ones to exaggerate it? How did our discourse fall to the level where rape of all things is a hot button issue?

Well, at the risk of being political, I would suggest that the liberal sites don't actually exaggerate the problem.

I'm pretty busy with work atm, but you need to be told that you are drowning in your ideology. The 1 in 4 rape statistic, espoused by many Liberals, is a blatant lie, exaggerated beyond sane levels. The actual rape-rate is vanishingly small. You're too smart to say something pants-on-head-retarded like this; please inform yourself, bsh.


That being said, humanity is a political animal. It is hard for us NOT to politicize things. There is perhaps no issue I can think of that wasn't at one time political. That may be a sad statement, but it is through politicizing things that dialogue is generated and solutions are pursued.
TN05
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4/30/2015 7:02:57 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/29/2015 4:57:29 PM, thett3 wrote:
It seems that every day on political websites of both sides, rape, in particular college campus rape, is debated as if it were a political issue. The statistics and specific stories in particular...I'm not saying these things shouldn't be debated, necessarily, but why the political subtext? Why is it that every conservative site/article attempts to minimize the problem, and liberal ones to exaggerate it? How did our discourse fall to the level where rape of all things is a hot button issue?

Because feminists don't have anything else to whine about.
Ore_Ele
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4/30/2015 6:36:50 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/29/2015 4:57:29 PM, thett3 wrote:
It seems that every day on political websites of both sides, rape, in particular college campus rape, is debated as if it were a political issue. The statistics and specific stories in particular...I'm not saying these things shouldn't be debated, necessarily, but why the political subtext? Why is it that every conservative site/article attempts to minimize the problem, and liberal ones to exaggerate it? How did our discourse fall to the level where rape of all things is a hot button issue?

Because it falls to the issue of personal responsibility and personal rights, which are political issues.
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Kaynes
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5/1/2015 12:31:53 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Well that's kind of obvious, everything can be a political issue, rape is being discussed more simply because it affects people more.

If nobody cared about rape, nobody would talk about it. Nobody cared about all those rapes in india before those stories made the international news.