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MelissaHawj
Posts: 6
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5/8/2015 2:31:41 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Hey guys! So for class, I have to write an argumentative essay about abortion and I just wanted to get your opinions about some questions that I have.

First off, for those who find abortion to be murder, the definition of murder is "the crime of unlawfully killing a person especially with malice aforethought". Almost no one is happy or proud about getting an abortion. Many people have different reasons for their abortions. Can a fetus/zygote be considered as a person? When is it considered a person? At birth, conception, when it's viable? These answers to the questions depends on your religious beliefs and since everyone has different religions, isn't it not fair to decide for all religions that abortion is murder?

Secondly, I know that many people (but not all) I've talked to are okay with putting down a dog when it is old, sick, or in pain. Now they aren't happy about doing it but they do it anyways. How is this any different when having an abortion? What makes it okay to put down a dog but not okay to have an abortion? This thinking makes it seem as if humans are superior to dogs. Yes, they may be animals but they too have feelings. The dog doesn't have a say whether he/she wants to be put down. You may argue the case that it's okay because the dog is sick but then my reply is, what about babies who have congenital disorders then? If medics were able to find a less painful injections similar to the ones given to dogs, would it be okay?

I just wanted to finalize that while I don't necessarily agree with abortion procedures, I do want women to be able to have their own choice in choosing what they should do. I believe abortions should be illegalized in the third trimester unless there are special circumstances in which the mother may die.

Thanks in advance for chatting with me! Let's have a friendly conversation :)
MelissaHawj
Posts: 6
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5/8/2015 2:55:55 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Ohh, sorry hehe... I forgot to add another thing. If abortion was to be illegal, what would be the solution? I don't really find adoption to be an logical solution. If this were the case, there would be many kids in orphanages. People do want to adopt but many have specific requests. Aren't there already enough kids in orphanages waiting to be adopted? What happens to babies who aren't nearly as wanted such as the minority babies?
Dilara
Posts: 661
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5/8/2015 3:54:47 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/8/2015 2:31:41 PM, MelissaHawj wrote:
Hey guys! So for class, I have to write an argumentative essay about abortion and I just wanted to get your opinions about some questions that I have.

First off, for those who find abortion to be murder, the definition of murder is "the crime of unlawfully killing a person especially with malice aforethought". Almost no one is happy or proud about getting an abortion. Many people have different reasons for their abortions. Can a fetus/zygote be considered as a person? When is it considered a person? At birth, conception, when it's viable? These answers to the questions depends on your religious beliefs and since everyone has different religions, isn't it not fair to decide for all religions that abortion is murder?

Secondly, I know that many people (but not all) I've talked to are okay with putting down a dog when it is old, sick, or in pain. Now they aren't happy about doing it but they do it anyways. How is this any different when having an abortion? What makes it okay to put down a dog but not okay to have an abortion? This thinking makes it seem as if humans are superior to dogs. Yes, they may be animals but they too have feelings. The dog doesn't have a say whether he/she wants to be put down. You may argue the case that it's okay because the dog is sick but then my reply is, what about babies who have congenital disorders then? If medics were able to find a less painful injections similar to the ones given to dogs, would it be okay?

I just wanted to finalize that while I don't necessarily agree with abortion procedures, I do want women to be able to have their own choice in choosing what they should do. I believe abortions should be illegalized in the third trimester unless there are special circumstances in which the mother may die.

Thanks in advance for chatting with me! Let's have a friendly conversation :)

Hi! I am against abortion because I believe that everyone deserves a chance at life. I believe that a persons chance to enjoy life--to even have a life--overrides ones right to bodily autonomy for 9 months. I think that putting your social life before your child is very cruel. That child though only an inch long, could be the person who will cure cancer. I don't think that anyone can decide who lives and who dies because of their social life. I do think that when the moms physical and emotional health is at risk it should be allowed. If someone can't afford a baby it should also be allowed. If the child has a severe condition that will cause his life to be agonizing for him and his family than it should be allowed. But if someone just wants to wait to have kids even thought tvey are married with a stable job than they should not be able to get one. I also believe that by the 16th week if pregnancy all elective abortion--even if the child is a product of rape or a poor mom-should be illegal. Most abortions occur when the baby is less than 12 weeks old. There's no reason why it should take 16 weeks to find out your pregnant and than make the choice.
You said that you don't agree with abortion. I'm curious as to why that is.
Thanks!
neoryan1
Posts: 22
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5/9/2015 7:16:18 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
One problem I have with abortion is the lack of attention they pay to the women getting them. Like you said almost no one is proud of an abortion. I feel as though counseling sessions before getting an abortion should be mandatory considering the amount of women who regret their abortions and sometimes go into depression because of them. The biggest example of this that seems to get ignored is Norma McCorvey aka "Jane Roe" in Roe v Wade. That's right, the woman whose name will be written in textbooks for eternity for the legalization of abortion nationwide in 1973 is now against abortion and has never had one.

Now whether or not it should be legal in general I feel I have no position to say. However I do strongly believe that Planned Parenthood needs to be changed in many ways including the above point.
Dilara
Posts: 661
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5/9/2015 8:51:46 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Remember the abortion industry is an industry. There are people who are a part of it who care about women. Here are also a much smaller number of people who are part if the abortion industry who don't care about women but just want money. Abortion is their product like how makeup is the cosmetic industries product. The more abortions the more money they make.
I know someone who had an abortion and regrets it. I think women should be made to look at the ultra sound before hand. We could save lives.
Midnight1131
Posts: 1,643
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5/9/2015 9:25:15 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/9/2015 8:51:46 PM, Dilara wrote:
Remember the abortion industry is an industry. There are people who are a part of it who care about women. Here are also a much smaller number of people who are part if the abortion industry who don't care about women but just want money. Abortion is their product like how makeup is the cosmetic industries product. The more abortions the more money they make.
I know someone who had an abortion and regrets it. I think women should be made to look at the ultra sound before hand. We could save lives.

This entire argument goes nowhere. Does it matter that people conducting abortions make money? Anyone doing any job makes money, your entire argument is based on the presumption that anyone who is in the healthcare industry for money is an immoral person.
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TN05
Posts: 4,492
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5/9/2015 9:28:14 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/8/2015 2:31:41 PM, MelissaHawj wrote:
Hey guys! So for class, I have to write an argumentative essay about abortion and I just wanted to get your opinions about some questions that I have.

First off, for those who find abortion to be murder, the definition of murder is "the crime of unlawfully killing a person especially with malice aforethought". Almost no one is happy or proud about getting an abortion. Many people have different reasons for their abortions.

The more accurate idea is abortion should be considered murder. Very few people advocate punishing the mother severely - it is abortion 'doctors' who would be punished harshly.

Can a fetus/zygote be considered as a person? When is it considered a person? At birth, conception, when it's viable?

For me personally, I'm not opposed to contraception. I don't have an exact date of conception, but at least within a week of pregnancy.

These answers to the questions depends on your religious beliefs and since everyone has different religions, isn't it not fair to decide for all religions that abortion is murder?

Opposition to murder is not a value limited to religion. Most decent people, regardless of religion, oppose murder. The difference is what qualifies as murder? That also isn't religious.

Secondly, I know that many people (but not all) I've talked to are okay with putting down a dog when it is old, sick, or in pain. Now they aren't happy about doing it but they do it anyways. How is this any different when having an abortion? What makes it okay to put down a dog but not okay to have an abortion? This thinking makes it seem as if humans are superior to dogs. Yes, they may be animals but they too have feelings. The dog doesn't have a say whether he/she wants to be put down. You may argue the case that it's okay because the dog is sick but then my reply is, what about babies who have congenital disorders then? If medics were able to find a less painful injections similar to the ones given to dogs, would it be okay?

A fetus is not in pain. Aside from the fact that doing so would obviously not be in its interest, the vast majority of abortions occur because the mother wants it - not out of 'mercy'. As someone with a mental condition (Asperger Syndrome) I find it completely unacceptable to argue for what amounts to eugenics - the fact that half of Down's Syndrome babies are aborted is a horrifying and tragic thing.

I just wanted to finalize that while I don't necessarily agree with abortion procedures, I do want women to be able to have their own choice in choosing what they should do. I believe abortions should be illegalized in the third trimester unless there are special circumstances in which the mother may die.

The vast majority of people (upwards of 80%) oppose third trimester abortions; similar percentages (60% or so) oppose second-trimester ones. In my opinion, abortion should definitely be illegal after 22 weeks (the earliest point at which a fetus is viable), with the exception of mother's health.

Thanks in advance for chatting with me! Let's have a friendly conversation :)

We need more friendly discussions on this topic; it's too serious to just stick in a bubble of people who agree with you.
Midnight1131
Posts: 1,643
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5/9/2015 9:29:20 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/8/2015 2:31:41 PM, MelissaHawj wrote:
Hey guys! So for class, I have to write an argumentative essay about abortion and I just wanted to get your opinions about some questions that I have.

First off, for those who find abortion to be murder, the definition of murder is "the crime of unlawfully killing a person especially with malice aforethought". Almost no one is happy or proud about getting an abortion. Many people have different reasons for their abortions. Can a fetus/zygote be considered as a person? When is it considered a person? At birth, conception, when it's viable? These answers to the questions depends on your religious beliefs and since everyone has different religions, isn't it not fair to decide for all religions that abortion is murder?

Secondly, I know that many people (but not all) I've talked to are okay with putting down a dog when it is old, sick, or in pain. Now they aren't happy about doing it but they do it anyways. How is this any different when having an abortion? What makes it okay to put down a dog but not okay to have an abortion? This thinking makes it seem as if humans are superior to dogs. Yes, they may be animals but they too have feelings. The dog doesn't have a say whether he/she wants to be put down. You may argue the case that it's okay because the dog is sick but then my reply is, what about babies who have congenital disorders then? If medics were able to find a less painful injections similar to the ones given to dogs, would it be okay?

I just wanted to finalize that while I don't necessarily agree with abortion procedures, I do want women to be able to have their own choice in choosing what they should do. I believe abortions should be illegalized in the third trimester unless there are special circumstances in which the mother may die.

Thanks in advance for chatting with me! Let's have a friendly conversation :)

Scientists have not agreed on when a fetus is definitely a human, but they have agreed that during the first trimester of pregnancy, the fetus is completely dependent on the mother, therefore, it's very unfair for the woman to not have any control over her body, and for her body to be considered as simply a container that services the fetus.

Considering your argument about religion. It doesn't matter what religions say about when a fetus is considered a person, because that religion probably has no evidence to back up it's claim. It is very fair for laws to apply to all religions, because we live in a secular society, and religion is, and should be, completely separate from state, and the law.
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TN05
Posts: 4,492
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5/9/2015 9:29:32 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/8/2015 2:55:55 PM, MelissaHawj wrote:
Ohh, sorry hehe... I forgot to add another thing. If abortion was to be illegal, what would be the solution? I don't really find adoption to be an logical solution. If this were the case, there would be many kids in orphanages. People do want to adopt but many have specific requests. Aren't there already enough kids in orphanages waiting to be adopted? What happens to babies who aren't nearly as wanted such as the minority babies?

That's one solution - there are many people who are unable to have children and would love to adopt. However I think if abortion were made illegal there would generally be a drop in birth rate, just from the risk of having to carry to term.
komododragon8
Posts: 405
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5/9/2015 9:43:31 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/8/2015 2:31:41 PM, MelissaHawj wrote:
Hey guys! So for class, I have to write an argumentative essay about abortion and I just wanted to get your opinions about some questions that I have.

First off, for those who find abortion to be murder, the definition of murder is "the crime of unlawfully killing a person especially with malice aforethought". Almost no one is happy or proud about getting an abortion. Many people have different reasons for their abortions. Can a fetus/zygote be considered as a person? When is it considered a person? At birth, conception, when it's viable? These answers to the questions depends on your religious beliefs and since everyone has different religions, isn't it not fair to decide for all religions that abortion is murder?

Secondly, I know that many people (but not all) I've talked to are okay with putting down a dog when it is old, sick, or in pain. Now they aren't happy about doing it but they do it anyways. How is this any different when having an abortion? What makes it okay to put down a dog but not okay to have an abortion? This thinking makes it seem as if humans are superior to dogs. Yes, they may be animals but they too have feelings. The dog doesn't have a say whether he/she wants to be put down. You may argue the case that it's okay because the dog is sick but then my reply is, what about babies who have congenital disorders then? If medics were able to find a less painful injections similar to the ones given to dogs, would it be okay?

I just wanted to finalize that while I don't necessarily agree with abortion procedures, I do want women to be able to have their own choice in choosing what they should do. I believe abortions should be illegalized in the third trimester unless there are special circumstances in which the mother may die.

Thanks in advance for chatting with me! Let's have a friendly conversation :)

Firstly abortion would only apply as murder if it was done in an area where it was illegal. It also depends on what your definition of person is as it is still a controversial topic. I believe that the fetus is not a person as it does not have the neural pathways for consciousness or pain at least until 24-26 weeks. After that point there should still be exceptions for rape, incest, and when it threatens the life of the mother. I dont think that viability is really important here as many other organisms can still be killed even if they are viable.
MelissaHawj
Posts: 6
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5/10/2015 4:32:08 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/8/2015 3:54:47 PM, Dilara wrote:
At 5/8/2015 2:31:41 PM, MelissaHawj wrote:
Hey guys! So for class, I have to write an argumentative essay about abortion and I just wanted to get your opinions about some questions that I have.

First off, for those who find abortion to be murder, the definition of murder is "the crime of unlawfully killing a person especially with malice aforethought". Almost no one is happy or proud about getting an abortion. Many people have different reasons for their abortions. Can a fetus/zygote be considered as a person? When is it considered a person? At birth, conception, when it's viable? These answers to the questions depends on your religious beliefs and since everyone has different religions, isn't it not fair to decide for all religions that abortion is murder?

Secondly, I know that many people (but not all) I've talked to are okay with putting down a dog when it is old, sick, or in pain. Now they aren't happy about doing it but they do it anyways. How is this any different when having an abortion? What makes it okay to put down a dog but not okay to have an abortion? This thinking makes it seem as if humans are superior to dogs. Yes, they may be animals but they too have feelings. The dog doesn't have a say whether he/she wants to be put down. You may argue the case that it's okay because the dog is sick but then my reply is, what about babies who have congenital disorders then? If medics were able to find a less painful injections similar to the ones given to dogs, would it be okay?

I just wanted to finalize that while I don't necessarily agree with abortion procedures, I do want women to be able to have their own choice in choosing what they should do. I believe abortions should be illegalized in the third trimester unless there are special circumstances in which the mother may die.

Thanks in advance for chatting with me! Let's have a friendly conversation :)

Hi! I am against abortion because I believe that everyone deserves a chance at life. I believe that a persons chance to enjoy life--to even have a life--overrides ones right to bodily autonomy for 9 months. I think that putting your social life before your child is very cruel. That child though only an inch long, could be the person who will cure cancer. I don't think that anyone can decide who lives and who dies because of their social life. I do think that when the moms physical and emotional health is at risk it should be allowed. If someone can't afford a baby it should also be allowed. If the child has a severe condition that will cause his life to be agonizing for him and his family than it should be allowed. But if someone just wants to wait to have kids even thought tvey are married with a stable job than they should not be able to get one. I also believe that by the 16th week if pregnancy all elective abortion--even if the child is a product of rape or a poor mom-should be illegal. Most abortions occur when the baby is less than 12 weeks old. There's no reason why it should take 16 weeks to find out your pregnant and than make the choice.
You said that you don't agree with abortion. I'm curious as to why that is.
Thanks!

I don't agree with abortion because of the procedures that someone has to go through to get one. I've read them and they sound very gruesome. I wish there were other ways that could be done to get the baby out. Even though I personally don't agree with the way of how it's done, I still wish that those who want it would have it as a choice. There should be more strict regulations on abortion such as not using it as a main contraceptive. People who have more than 2 abortions should be more careful and find other ways to not become pregnant.
MelissaHawj
Posts: 6
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5/10/2015 4:37:06 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/9/2015 7:16:18 PM, neoryan1 wrote:
One problem I have with abortion is the lack of attention they pay to the women getting them. Like you said almost no one is proud of an abortion. I feel as though counseling sessions before getting an abortion should be mandatory considering the amount of women who regret their abortions and sometimes go into depression because of them. The biggest example of this that seems to get ignored is Norma McCorvey aka "Jane Roe" in Roe v Wade. That's right, the woman whose name will be written in textbooks for eternity for the legalization of abortion nationwide in 1973 is now against abortion and has never had one.

Now whether or not it should be legal in general I feel I have no position to say. However I do strongly believe that Planned Parenthood needs to be changed in many ways including the above point.

Huh, interesting! I knew about Jane Roe but wasn't aware that she's now against abortion. I agree with you about the counseling. Many woman who are getting an abortion are in a bad emotional state. Clinics should make sure that women know what they are getting into and that they are okay after the procedure.
Daffypuck
Posts: 29
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5/10/2015 4:39:48 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Heres a fact, no one can definitively agree on when life begins. So that argument is moot. With that said, my stance is this, I would rather err on the side of life and go to sleep with a clean conscience than to wake up one day and find out I was wrong and live a life of regret.
Dilara
Posts: 661
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5/10/2015 4:53:02 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/10/2015 4:32:08 PM, MelissaHawj wrote:
At 5/8/2015 3:54:47 PM, Dilara wrote:
At 5/8/2015 2:31:41 PM, MelissaHawj wrote:
Hey guys! So for class, I have to write an argumentative essay about abortion and I just wanted to get your opinions about some questions that I have.

First off, for those who find abortion to be murder, the definition of murder is "the crime of unlawfully killing a person especially with malice aforethought". Almost no one is happy or proud about getting an abortion. Many people have different reasons for their abortions. Can a fetus/zygote be considered as a person? When is it considered a person? At birth, conception, when it's viable? These answers to the questions depends on your religious beliefs and since everyone has different religions, isn't it not fair to decide for all religions that abortion is murder?

Secondly, I know that many people (but not all) I've talked to are okay with putting down a dog when it is old, sick, or in pain. Now they aren't happy about doing it but they do it anyways. How is this any different when having an abortion? What makes it okay to put down a dog but not okay to have an abortion? This thinking makes it seem as if humans are superior to dogs. Yes, they may be animals but they too have feelings. The dog doesn't have a say whether he/she wants to be put down. You may argue the case that it's okay because the dog is sick but then my reply is, what about babies who have congenital disorders then? If medics were able to find a less painful injections similar to the ones given to dogs, would it be okay?

I just wanted to finalize that while I don't necessarily agree with abortion procedures, I do want women to be able to have their own choice in choosing what they should do. I believe abortions should be illegalized in the third trimester unless there are special circumstances in which the mother may die.

Thanks in advance for chatting with me! Let's have a friendly conversation :)

Hi! I am against abortion because I believe that everyone deserves a chance at life. I believe that a persons chance to enjoy life--to even have a life--overrides ones right to bodily autonomy for 9 months. I think that putting your social life before your child is very cruel. That child though only an inch long, could be the person who will cure cancer. I don't think that anyone can decide who lives and who dies because of their social life. I do think that when the moms physical and emotional health is at risk it should be allowed. If someone can't afford a baby it should also be allowed. If the child has a severe condition that will cause his life to be agonizing for him and his family than it should be allowed. But if someone just wants to wait to have kids even thought tvey are married with a stable job than they should not be able to get one. I also believe that by the 16th week if pregnancy all elective abortion--even if the child is a product of rape or a poor mom-should be illegal. Most abortions occur when the baby is less than 12 weeks old. There's no reason why it should take 16 weeks to find out your pregnant and than make the choice.
You said that you don't agree with abortion. I'm curious as to why that is.
Thanks!

I don't agree with abortion because of the procedures that someone has to go through to get one. I've read them and they sound very gruesome. I wish there were other ways that could be done to get the baby out. Even though I personally don't agree with the way of how it's done, I still wish that those who want it would have it as a choice. There should be more strict regulations on abortion such as not using it as a main contraceptive. People who have more than 2 abortions should be more careful and find other ways to not become pregnant.

I've seen videos of how vacume aspiration abortion works. There's a 28 minute movie called silent scream that shows an abortion. It's narrated by Bernard Nathanson, a former abortion doctor who became pro life after seeing babies on ultra Sounds. The doctor sticks a canula up the women's vagina into her uterus and attatches the part of the canula that is outside of her body to a vacume. He than turns oh the vacume and sucks the baby out. He uses tongs to get the head of the baby out once he's got the rest of the busy out.
Late term abortion is the worse. Partial birth abortion was banned in 2007. The doctor yanks the lower half of the baby out of the mom end cuts it's spinel cord with scissors or uses a hammer to tap the babies soft spot on his head. He than takes the head out. The 20+ week old baby than is dead unless the doctor takes the entire baby out before killing it. Than it will cry in pain. It's very cruel.
MelissaHawj
Posts: 6
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5/10/2015 5:04:22 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/9/2015 9:28:14 PM, TN05 wrote:
At 5/8/2015 2:31:41 PM, MelissaHawj wrote:
Hey guys! So for class, I have to write an argumentative essay about abortion and I just wanted to get your opinions about some questions that I have.

First off, for those who find abortion to be murder, the definition of murder is "the crime of unlawfully killing a person especially with malice aforethought". Almost no one is happy or proud about getting an abortion. Many people have different reasons for their abortions.

The more accurate idea is abortion should be considered murder. Very few people advocate punishing the mother severely - it is abortion 'doctors' who would be punished harshly.

I feel as if it should be an all or nothing type of thing. I know that it's the doctors who performs it but then why wouldn't the mother be punished? She would be the one giving consent to the doctor.

These answers to the questions depends on your religious beliefs and since everyone has different religions, isn't it not fair to decide for all religions that abortion is murder?

Opposition to murder is not a value limited to religion. Most decent people, regardless of religion, oppose murder. The difference is what qualifies as murder? That also isn't religious.


When I was talking about the topic of religion, it was pertaining to these questions, " Can a fetus/zygote be considered as a person? When is it considered a person? At birth, conception, when it's viable?". These questions affect whether or not abortion should be considered murder.

Secondly, I know that many people (but not all) I've talked to are okay with putting down a dog when it is old, sick, or in pain. Now they aren't happy about doing it but they do it anyways. How is this any different when having an abortion? What makes it okay to put down a dog but not okay to have an abortion? This thinking makes it seem as if humans are superior to dogs. Yes, they may be animals but they too have feelings. The dog doesn't have a say whether he/she wants to be put down. You may argue the case that it's okay because the dog is sick but then my reply is, what about babies who have congenital disorders then? If medics were able to find a less painful injections similar to the ones given to dogs, would it be okay?

A fetus is not in pain. Aside from the fact that doing so would obviously not be in its interest, the vast majority of abortions occur because the mother wants it - not out of 'mercy'. As someone with a mental condition (Asperger Syndrome) I find it completely unacceptable to argue for what amounts to eugenics - the fact that half of Down's Syndrome babies are aborted is a horrifying and tragic thing.

I get where you're coming from. My brother also has Asperger Syndrome. I feel as if it should be okay to have an abortion if the disability will cause the child a lot of pain such as Paroxysmal. But then the questions becomes, who decides what is bad enough and not.

Thanks in advance for chatting with me! Let's have a friendly conversation :)

We need more friendly discussions on this topic; it's too serious to just stick in a bubble of people who agree with you.

Definitely! I've talked to many people about this and some are just so rude. Even my peers have cursed at me and such. I'm always open to other's opinions and respect theirs if they at least respect the fact that I might have my own.
MelissaHawj
Posts: 6
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5/10/2015 5:17:13 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/9/2015 9:29:20 PM, Midnight1131 wrote:
Considering your argument about religion. It doesn't matter what religions say about when a fetus is considered a person, because that religion probably has no evidence to back up it's claim. It is very fair for laws to apply to all religions, because we live in a secular society, and religion is, and should be, completely separate from state, and the law.

I understand what you're trying to say but I feel as if the US is very religious. America was and I believe is still considered the melting pot. If they pass a law saying that abortion is murder because a fetus is considered a human, those who don't believe that would be violated of their right to practice their religion which may say otherwise.
TN05
Posts: 4,492
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5/10/2015 5:31:49 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/10/2015 5:04:22 PM, MelissaHawj wrote:
At 5/9/2015 9:28:14 PM, TN05 wrote:
At 5/8/2015 2:31:41 PM, MelissaHawj wrote:
Hey guys! So for class, I have to write an argumentative essay about abortion and I just wanted to get your opinions about some questions that I have.

First off, for those who find abortion to be murder, the definition of murder is "the crime of unlawfully killing a person especially with malice aforethought". Almost no one is happy or proud about getting an abortion. Many people have different reasons for their abortions.

The more accurate idea is abortion should be considered murder. Very few people advocate punishing the mother severely - it is abortion 'doctors' who would be punished harshly.

I feel as if it should be an all or nothing type of thing. I know that it's the doctors who performs it but then why wouldn't the mother be punished? She would be the one giving consent to the doctor.

There probably would be punishment for the mother, but not murder charges as she didn't carry it out. Given the number of abortions it probably would not be appropriate to throw everyone who gets one in jail - 'doctors', on the other hand, are much easier to convict without negative ramifications.

These answers to the questions depends on your religious beliefs and since everyone has different religions, isn't it not fair to decide for all religions that abortion is murder?

Opposition to murder is not a value limited to religion. Most decent people, regardless of religion, oppose murder. The difference is what qualifies as murder? That also isn't religious.

When I was talking about the topic of religion, it was pertaining to these questions, " Can a fetus/zygote be considered as a person? When is it considered a person? At birth, conception, when it's viable?". These questions affect whether or not abortion should be considered murder.

Of course, but one does not need to be religious to think that fetuses are persons, nor does one need to be irreligious to not believe it - if that was the case, the vast majority of people would oppose abortion in all cases (which they do not) because the vast majority of people (80% of so) are religious.

Secondly, I know that many people (but not all) I've talked to are okay with putting down a dog when it is old, sick, or in pain. Now they aren't happy about doing it but they do it anyways. How is this any different when having an abortion? What makes it okay to put down a dog but not okay to have an abortion? This thinking makes it seem as if humans are superior to dogs. Yes, they may be animals but they too have feelings. The dog doesn't have a say whether he/she wants to be put down. You may argue the case that it's okay because the dog is sick but then my reply is, what about babies who have congenital disorders then? If medics were able to find a less painful injections similar to the ones given to dogs, would it be okay?

A fetus is not in pain. Aside from the fact that doing so would obviously not be in its interest, the vast majority of abortions occur because the mother wants it - not out of 'mercy'. As someone with a mental condition (Asperger Syndrome) I find it completely unacceptable to argue for what amounts to eugenics - the fact that half of Down's Syndrome babies are aborted is a horrifying and tragic thing.

I get where you're coming from. My brother also has Asperger Syndrome. I feel as if it should be okay to have an abortion if the disability will cause the child a lot of pain such as Paroxysmal. But then the questions becomes, who decides what is bad enough and not.

Precisely. Once again, this is a relative thing - not everyone sees it the same. It's an impossible issue which is why I reject that idea. I just can't see playing God and deciding who is worthy to live or die as being appropriate for us to do.

Thanks in advance for chatting with me! Let's have a friendly conversation :)

We need more friendly discussions on this topic; it's too serious to just stick in a bubble of people who agree with you.

Definitely! I've talked to many people about this and some are just so rude. Even my peers have cursed at me and such. I'm always open to other's opinions and respect theirs if they at least respect the fact that I might have my own.

Agreed. Part of the problem in this debate is many people on either side either talk in extremes (all pro-life people hate women and oppose women's rights, or all pro-abortion people love abortions and want to see more). This is an issue we really can't afford not to debate... it has crucial ramifications for both individual freedom and the philosophical value of personhood.

Gallup polls have shown around 28% of people believe abortion should always be legal, and 21% believe it should always be illegal; the other 51% fall somewhere in the middle (13% 'legal under most' and 37% 'legal only in a few'). Labeling anyone who disagrees with the 'always legal' or 'always illegal' option as a 'radical [insert derogatory label here] extremist' is not accurate, it is in fact very wrong. The sooner people realize that, the better. I am pro-life and would love a society without abortion, but I recognize that is not possible for the time being. My goal, then, is to bring about agreeable change - and there is consensus on many abortion issues. It just can't vocalize it without being attacked from both ends.
16kadams
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5/10/2015 11:48:56 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/8/2015 2:31:41 PM, MelissaHawj wrote:
Hey guys! So for class, I have to write an argumentative essay about abortion and I just wanted to get your opinions about some questions that I have.

http://faculty.polytechnic.org...
http://www.str.org...

Enough for an essay.


First off, for those who find abortion to be murder, the definition of murder is "the crime of unlawfully killing a person especially with malice aforethought". Almost no one is happy or proud about getting an abortion. Many people have different reasons for their abortions. Can a fetus/zygote be considered as a person? When is it considered a person? At birth, conception, when it's viable? These answers to the questions depends on your religious beliefs and since everyone has different religions, isn't it not fair to decide for all religions that abortion is murder?

Secondly, I know that many people (but not all) I've talked to are okay with putting down a dog when it is old, sick, or in pain. Now they aren't happy about doing it but they do it anyways. How is this any different when having an abortion? What makes it okay to put down a dog but not okay to have an abortion? This thinking makes it seem as if humans are superior to dogs. Yes, they may be animals but they too have feelings. The dog doesn't have a say whether he/she wants to be put down. You may argue the case that it's okay because the dog is sick but then my reply is, what about babies who have congenital disorders then? If medics were able to find a less painful injections similar to the ones given to dogs, would it be okay?

I just wanted to finalize that while I don't necessarily agree with abortion procedures, I do want women to be able to have their own choice in choosing what they should do. I believe abortions should be illegalized in the third trimester unless there are special circumstances in which the mother may die.

Thanks in advance for chatting with me! Let's have a friendly conversation :)
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Daktoria
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5/11/2015 7:45:13 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/8/2015 2:31:41 PM, MelissaHawj wrote:
Hey guys! So for class, I have to write an argumentative essay about abortion and I just wanted to get your opinions about some questions that I have.

First off, for those who find abortion to be murder, the definition of murder is "the crime of unlawfully killing a person especially with malice aforethought". Almost no one is happy or proud about getting an abortion. Many people have different reasons for their abortions. Can a fetus/zygote be considered as a person? When is it considered a person? At birth, conception, when it's viable? These answers to the questions depends on your religious beliefs and since everyone has different religions, isn't it not fair to decide for all religions that abortion is murder?

Secondly, I know that many people (but not all) I've talked to are okay with putting down a dog when it is old, sick, or in pain. Now they aren't happy about doing it but they do it anyways. How is this any different when having an abortion? What makes it okay to put down a dog but not okay to have an abortion? This thinking makes it seem as if humans are superior to dogs. Yes, they may be animals but they too have feelings. The dog doesn't have a say whether he/she wants to be put down. You may argue the case that it's okay because the dog is sick but then my reply is, what about babies who have congenital disorders then? If medics were able to find a less painful injections similar to the ones given to dogs, would it be okay?

I just wanted to finalize that while I don't necessarily agree with abortion procedures, I do want women to be able to have their own choice in choosing what they should do. I believe abortions should be illegalized in the third trimester unless there are special circumstances in which the mother may die.

Thanks in advance for chatting with me! Let's have a friendly conversation :)

The gist of the issue of abortion has to do with two things in what you said: the definition of malice, and consideration towards personhood.

On the surface, what you're talking about seems fine, and it's for that reason that I used to be pro-choice. After all, people deserve to make choices in their own life, and without cognition, there's no need to believe that preborns' lives are really "theirs".

The problem deals with how we read cognition. After all, people can choose to do nothing, and just because we see a lack of (satisfying) feedback after stimulus does not mean that nothing is going on inside. For example, imagine if you had no mouth or you were gagged, but you wanted to scream after being prodded. You wouldn't be able to, but according to cognitivism, the lack of (satisfying) feedback following our prods would entitle us to believe that nothing is going on inside of you.

In this sense, cognitivism is a malicious and inconsiderate attitude towards humanity because it puts our judgment before the judgment of those we're judging. We are treating preborns as guilty before proven innocent, and expecting them to satisfy us in advance of treating them with respect.

This isn't to say that preborns necessarily are cognitive, but just that we must be openminded to the potential for cognition because if we're not, then we're necessarily condemning cognition if it is there even if we can't tell it is.

Keep in mind this isn't a religious argument, nor does it consider the existence of a substantive soul. It merely acknowledges the characteristic of cognition, and how it can exist even if it exists in ways we don't anticipate it existing. We should embrace the diversity of human nature instead of being anti-intellectually stuck in our ways while extending our past experiences to future expectations.
Daktoria
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5/11/2015 8:02:54 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
On the side, I see the real reason why so many are pro-choice.

Pro-choice attitudes happen because...

...well...

...people are aroused.

The fact is people have libidos that they're releasing, and they don't choose to have those libidos. This is combined with how our parents push our libidos onto us, and our parents are often either strict disciplinarians, or limp noodles who don't bother to discipline us at all.

This leads to a couple strange considerations:

a) If we had our libidos forced upon us, why are preborns immune from force?

b) If we had to endure our parents pushing their emotions onto us, why can't we be emotional with preborns?

The answer is that preborns are not our parents. Just because parents treated us some way doesn't mean we should treat the next generation the same. Yea, we could uphold a legacy of anarchic might makes right power politics, but that would make us uncivilized. Society is supposed to progress, not regress. It's supposed to become more civilized, not less. We should not unleash our frustration with the past onto the future.
xus00HAY
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5/11/2015 9:03:52 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
" If abortion was to be illegal, what would be the solution? "

There would only be one solution Ms. Hawt. The final solution. Sterilization. If people had to get vasectomies* or get their tubes tied there would be no unwanted pregnancies so abortion would not be needed.
Don't listen to those BS artists tell you about birth control. It may work 99% of the time but if she does it 100 times, there will be 1 pregnancy. Now she could have the baby and give it up for adoption. But having the fetus be part of her while she has all those pregnant woman's hormones running thru her body after a few months she will change her mind and not want to part with her child.

*they could make an exxception for undatable men. They won't be getting any.
philochristos
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5/11/2015 10:15:05 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/8/2015 2:31:41 PM, MelissaHawj wrote:
Hey guys! So for class, I have to write an argumentative essay about abortion and I just wanted to get your opinions about some questions that I have.

First off, for those who find abortion to be murder, the definition of murder is "the crime of unlawfully killing a person especially with malice aforethought".

That's the legal definition of murder, and obviously abortion isn't murder under that definition since it is legal. But murder, properly speaking, would exist even if there were no government. Murder, the way it's used cross-culturally, means the intentional killing of an innocent person.

Almost no one is happy or proud about getting an abortion.

But why not? If there's nothing wrong with abortion, then there should be nothing to be ashamed of. But if there IS something wrong with it, then maybe one should be pro-life.

Many people have different reasons for their abortions. Can a fetus/zygote be considered as a person?

Yes, depending on how you define "person."

When is it considered a person? At birth, conception, when it's viable?

I consider it a person as soon as it comes into existence, and i believe it comes into existence at conception.

These answers to the questions depends on your religious beliefs and since everyone has different religions, isn't it not fair to decide for all religions that abortion is murder?

That's not true. Most of the defenses I've seen of the personhood and humanity of the unborn have been based on science and philosophical reasoning. Here are two books I've read on the subject:

Defending Life by Frank Beckwith http://www.amazon.com...

The Case for Life by Scott Klusendorf http://www.amazon.com...

If you want to read a truncated version of Beckwith's material, here's a four-part series of articles he did: http://www.ccel.us...

Secondly, I know that many people (but not all) I've talked to are okay with putting down a dog when it is old, sick, or in pain. Now they aren't happy about doing it but they do it anyways. How is this any different when having an abortion? What makes it okay to put down a dog but not okay to have an abortion?

There's a couple of differences:

1. People only put their dogs down when their dogs are terminally ill, but that is typically not why people put their unborn down.

2. Dogs are not humans. If your grandmother were terminally ill, you wouldn't take her to the vet to be put down. We treat dogs differently than we treat humans.

You may argue the case that it's okay because the dog is sick but then my reply is, what about babies who have congenital disorders then? If medics were able to find a less painful injections similar to the ones given to dogs, would it be okay?

That's depends on how you feel about euthanasia. But even if one supported euthanasia for terminally ill people, that wouldn't justify abortion across the board. The question for pro-life people isn't whether there are exceptional cases in which it might be justified to take a life; the question is whether it ought to be permitted across the board. Most pro-lifers, including myself, think that abortion is at least justified in cases where the mother's life is at risk.
"Not to know of what things one should demand demonstration, and of what one should not, argues want of education." ~Aristotle

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." ~Aristotle
Daktoria
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5/12/2015 12:26:48 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
To be fair, intentionally killing someone is not always murder. Killing in self-defense or retaliation for a prior offense doesn't count. Malice is really the important part there since it starts the killing process. It doesn't react as in self-defense or retaliation.
wrichcirw
Posts: 11,196
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5/12/2015 8:20:59 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/12/2015 12:26:48 AM, Daktoria wrote:
To be fair, intentionally killing someone is not always murder. Killing in self-defense or retaliation for a prior offense doesn't count. Malice is really the important part there since it starts the killing process. It doesn't react as in self-defense or retaliation.

Agree, and this would justify abortions in the cases of rape or endangerment to the mother's life.
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
Welfare-Worker
Posts: 1,150
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5/12/2015 8:37:10 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/8/2015 2:31:41 PM, MelissaHawj wrote:
Hey guys! So for class, I have to write an argumentative essay about abortion and I just wanted to get your opinions about some questions that I have.

First off, for those who find abortion to be murder, the definition of murder is "the crime of unlawfully killing a person especially with malice aforethought". Almost no one is happy or proud about getting an abortion. Many people have different reasons for their abortions. Can a fetus/zygote be considered as a person? When is it considered a person? At birth, conception, when it's viable? These answers to the questions depends on your religious beliefs and since everyone has different religions, isn't it not fair to decide for all religions that abortion is murder?

Secondly, I know that many people (but not all) I've talked to are okay with putting down a dog when it is old, sick, or in pain. Now they aren't happy about doing it but they do it anyways. How is this any different when having an abortion? What makes it okay to put down a dog but not okay to have an abortion? This thinking makes it seem as if humans are superior to dogs. Yes, they may be animals but they too have feelings. The dog doesn't have a say whether he/she wants to be put down. You may argue the case that it's okay because the dog is sick but then my reply is, what about babies who have congenital disorders then? If medics were able to find a less painful injections similar to the ones given to dogs, would it be okay?

I just wanted to finalize that while I don't necessarily agree with abortion procedures, I do want women to be able to have their own choice in choosing what they should do. I believe abortions should be illegalized in the third trimester unless there are special circumstances in which the mother may die.

Thanks in advance for chatting with me! Let's have a friendly conversation :)

Abortion is not murder because it is not unlawful - that is a generality.
In some cases abortion is not lawful, and could be murder.
Daktoria
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5/12/2015 9:13:14 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/12/2015 8:37:10 AM, Welfare-Worker wrote:
At 5/8/2015 2:31:41 PM, MelissaHawj wrote:
Hey guys! So for class, I have to write an argumentative essay about abortion and I just wanted to get your opinions about some questions that I have.

First off, for those who find abortion to be murder, the definition of murder is "the crime of unlawfully killing a person especially with malice aforethought". Almost no one is happy or proud about getting an abortion. Many people have different reasons for their abortions. Can a fetus/zygote be considered as a person? When is it considered a person? At birth, conception, when it's viable? These answers to the questions depends on your religious beliefs and since everyone has different religions, isn't it not fair to decide for all religions that abortion is murder?

Secondly, I know that many people (but not all) I've talked to are okay with putting down a dog when it is old, sick, or in pain. Now they aren't happy about doing it but they do it anyways. How is this any different when having an abortion? What makes it okay to put down a dog but not okay to have an abortion? This thinking makes it seem as if humans are superior to dogs. Yes, they may be animals but they too have feelings. The dog doesn't have a say whether he/she wants to be put down. You may argue the case that it's okay because the dog is sick but then my reply is, what about babies who have congenital disorders then? If medics were able to find a less painful injections similar to the ones given to dogs, would it be okay?

I just wanted to finalize that while I don't necessarily agree with abortion procedures, I do want women to be able to have their own choice in choosing what they should do. I believe abortions should be illegalized in the third trimester unless there are special circumstances in which the mother may die.

Thanks in advance for chatting with me! Let's have a friendly conversation :)

Abortion is not murder because it is not unlawful - that is a generality.
In some cases abortion is not lawful, and could be murder.

Yea, but that's a circular argument.

Why is the law defined the way it is in the first place?
Welfare-Worker
Posts: 1,150
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5/12/2015 10:02:13 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/12/2015 9:13:14 AM, Daktoria wrote:
At 5/12/2015 8:37:10 AM, Welfare-Worker wrote:
At 5/8/2015 2:31:41 PM, MelissaHawj wrote:
Hey guys! So for class, I have to write an argumentative essay about abortion and I just wanted to get your opinions about some questions that I have.

First off, for those who find abortion to be murder, the definition of murder is "the crime of unlawfully killing a person especially with malice aforethought". Almost no one is happy or proud about getting an abortion. Many people have different reasons for their abortions. Can a fetus/zygote be considered as a person? When is it considered a person? At birth, conception, when it's viable? These answers to the questions depends on your religious beliefs and since everyone has different religions, isn't it not fair to decide for all religions that abortion is murder?

Secondly, I know that many people (but not all) I've talked to are okay with putting down a dog when it is old, sick, or in pain. Now they aren't happy about doing it but they do it anyways. How is this any different when having an abortion? What makes it okay to put down a dog but not okay to have an abortion? This thinking makes it seem as if humans are superior to dogs. Yes, they may be animals but they too have feelings. The dog doesn't have a say whether he/she wants to be put down. You may argue the case that it's okay because the dog is sick but then my reply is, what about babies who have congenital disorders then? If medics were able to find a less painful injections similar to the ones given to dogs, would it be okay?

I just wanted to finalize that while I don't necessarily agree with abortion procedures, I do want women to be able to have their own choice in choosing what they should do. I believe abortions should be illegalized in the third trimester unless there are special circumstances in which the mother may die.

Thanks in advance for chatting with me! Let's have a friendly conversation :)

Abortion is not murder because it is not unlawful - that is a generality.
In some cases abortion is not lawful, and could be murder.

Yea, but that's a circular argument.

Why is the law defined the way it is in the first place?

It is not circular at all.
'Murder" is a legal position.
If abortion is legal it cannot be murder, by definition.
If you pay for food, and eat it, is that stealing? Of course not - Stealing is illegal, and eating food you paid for is not illegal.

Pro-life people can say abortion is killing, or birth control is killing. No problem there.
When they call it murder, they are abusing the English language.

Does the military commit murder when they kill the enemy?
No.
xus00HAY
Posts: 1,372
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5/12/2015 11:42:58 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Like he^ says when a soldier kills while defending his country its not murder.
A pregnant woman could be a NATIVE born citizen of the USA.
That "unbornchild", well if that unborn child were a person, he would not be born here, and he would not have a visa. The abortion would defend our borders. People who are apposed to abortion must be on their side.

BTW How about it Ms.Hawt , lmf2f?
xus00HAY
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5/12/2015 12:48:52 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
About that part of the bible where it says thou shalt not kill, In the Hebrew Bible it says thou shalt not murder. When the bible was translateed into English they changed it to thou shalt not kill
Otokage
Posts: 2,347
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5/13/2015 4:33:13 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/8/2015 2:31:41 PM, MelissaHawj wrote:
Hey guys! So for class, I have to write an argumentative essay about abortion and I just wanted to get your opinions about some questions that I have.

First off, for those who find abortion to be murder, the definition of murder is "the crime of unlawfully killing a person especially with malice aforethought". Almost no one is happy or proud about getting an abortion. Many people have different reasons for their abortions. Can a fetus/zygote be considered as a person?

No. I think being a cell or a fetus is not compatible with being a person. Persons must be able to have legal rights and obligations. This is not possible for a fetus, which is a living system subjected to the rights and obligations of an already physical person which is the mother, for obvious reasons (like living inside the mother, depending fully on her to live, etc). Not being a person also grants certain protection for fetus. If a fetus was considered a person, and the mother dies because of the fetus (ie due to birth complications), actions could be taken against the baby for unwilling homicide, as ridiculous as it sounds. But as long as fetus are not considered persons, they can not be considered criminals either.

When is it considered a person? At birth, conception, when it's viable?

Also note that human beings acquire the legal personhood status when they are born, this means they are ready to be given rights and obligations (that will vary depending of the age of the person, and other factos).

These answers to the questions depends on your religious beliefs and since everyone has different religions, isn't it not fair to decide for all religions that abortion is murder?

Religions lack the capacity of determining anything at all in society, as religions are based on arbitrary, not reasoned, absolute and static values. Society would be caotic if ruled by religious dogmas, something Europe learned in the Middle Ages.

Secondly, I know that many people (but not all) I've talked to are okay with putting down a dog when it is old, sick, or in pain. Now they aren't happy about doing it but they do it anyways. How is this any different when having an abortion? What makes it okay to put down a dog but not okay to have an abortion?

It is slightly different. Fetus are still capable of being persons in the future, and they may be aborted with different justification than "being old, sick or in pain". As to why is Ok to kill dogs but not fetus, I can't think about a reason why. I can only say I hope in the future animals, or at least pets, are given more rights that will protect them from misstreatmet.

This thinking makes it seem as if humans are superior to dogs. Yes, they may be animals but they too have feelings.

Dogs are in fact more intelligent than fetus, and in general are still more intelligent than babies under 2-3 years old. As for the feelings, it is clear dogs have a special empathy that is lacking in a lot of humans.

The dog doesn't have a say whether he/she wants to be put down. You may argue the case that it's okay because the dog is sick but then my reply is, what about babies who have congenital disorders then? If medics were able to find a less painful injections similar to the ones given to dogs, would it be okay?

This depends. Dogs, unlike humans or ie cetaceans, rarely want to die even if in extreme pain. Canids have a perticularly extreme survival instinct and are terrorized by death. So in the case of dogs, I couldn't say. I killed my dog because she had 21 years old, she was blind and could barely walk, and she didn't show any sign of being happy. I don't think she was under physical pain, but she was probably depressed. Anyway I couldn't take care of her anymore as she was fully dependant on me. I don't know if I did the right thing, and probably I will never know. This is clearly not the case in humans, which seems the species with the highest frecuency of suicides, so I would say humans are generaly not so attached to life especially if they live in pain and without a purpose. Also the people that knows a person (ie the family of the person) probably know what is the person desire if he ever enters in persistent vegetative or minimally conscious state. If the person's whishes are not clear, maybe you should kill him too, as there isn't much difference between being vegetative or dead, unless in excepcional contexts ie cure for the particular illness that is making you vegetative could be found soon.

I just wanted to finalize that while I don't necessarily agree with abortion procedures, I do want women to be able to have their own choice in choosing what they should do. I believe abortions should be illegalized in the third trimester unless there are special circumstances in which the mother may die.

Thanks in advance for chatting with me! Let's have a friendly conversation :)

I think the abortion in a few months is a good option, since it gives women a chance, and also puts anti-abortion people's consciousness a bit more at ease knowing that what is being aborted lacks brain activity.