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A Classless Society

kasmic
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5/13/2015 4:51:02 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
I want to start a discussion about socialism. I am going to have different threads on different core tenets of socialism this one is about a Classless society.

What are your thoughts?

Pros? Cons? Etc".

Should we have a classless society. In which way?

Financially? Religiously? Gender? Race? Age?
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kasmic
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5/13/2015 5:45:02 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
I know there are strong feelings on this topic.... c'mon people haha
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Lee001
Posts: 3,168
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5/13/2015 6:12:34 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/13/2015 4:51:02 PM, kasmic wrote:
I want to start a discussion about socialism. I am going to have different threads on different core tenets of socialism this one is about a Classless society.

What are your thoughts?

Pros? Cons? Etc".

Should we have a classless society. In which way?

Financially? Religiously? Gender? Race? Age?

The main Pro of this is that everybody would be equal to one another. People wouldn't be divided by class, nor would they be treated differently because they are poor or rich. I guarantee to homeless percentage of people would decline dramatically. Racism probably wouldn't exist as well. Oh giddy imagine where men and women were equal as well!
"Condoms are societal constructs created by the government to restrain 'Murican freedom!"-SolonKR

"But I jest and digress (sick rhymes, yo); every boob is equal in the eyes of the Lord."- SolonKR

"Oh Hey, Seeing Artichokes Makes Me Want to Have Sex."- SolonKR

"Yep, but anyone who touches my hair immediately ascends to the heavens..You're already an angel, so touching my hair can do nothing <3" -SolonKR

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Lee001
Posts: 3,168
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5/13/2015 6:23:16 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
I'd like to actually hear the con's if there is any, I cant really think of any, other than people wouldn't be able to buy their way into things.
"Condoms are societal constructs created by the government to restrain 'Murican freedom!"-SolonKR

"But I jest and digress (sick rhymes, yo); every boob is equal in the eyes of the Lord."- SolonKR

"Oh Hey, Seeing Artichokes Makes Me Want to Have Sex."- SolonKR

"Yep, but anyone who touches my hair immediately ascends to the heavens..You're already an angel, so touching my hair can do nothing <3" -SolonKR

My hubby Hayd <3 <3
Wylted
Posts: 21,167
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5/13/2015 6:38:06 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/13/2015 4:51:02 PM, kasmic wrote:
I want to start a discussion about socialism. I am going to have different threads on different core tenets of socialism this one is about a Classless society.

What are your thoughts?

Pros? Cons? Etc".

Should we have a classless society. In which way?

Financially? Religiously? Gender? Race? Age?

You asked me to answer this so....

I don't think a classless society is obtainable, so I like the ideal of a quasi meritocracy. I say quasi, because I'd like to have the freedom to provide my children with a comfortable enough life to provide some sort of advantage.
EndarkenedRationalist
Posts: 14,201
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5/13/2015 11:11:35 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
If it's obtainable, absolutely. But I don't really identify with socialism's classless society. The ideal socialist society is still based on fair pay for fair work. There is still an income disparity to act as an incentive; it simply isn't absurdly wide.
Skynet
Posts: 674
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5/14/2015 1:09:50 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
People are naturally averse to a classless society. We should eliminate some classes, however. (Not holocaust eliminate, mind you)

Classes that need eliminating in the US: For the most part, race should be eliminated. We (Americans) need to be one people in mind and direction. Right now, from what I see we are split in 3 main political directions (Liberal/socialist, Social Conservative, and Freedom-ended Libertarian/Anarchist), and at least 2 racial classes: People who are mostly indifferent to race, and then almost everyone who is racial-centric. The racial-centrics have obviously holed themselves up in enclaves, view everything as a matter of racial pride and offense, and refuse to integrate with society at large, and largely seem to reject those from society at large integrating with their society.

That's the class distinction we could live without.

Other than that, people naturally form cliques based on means, interests, political views, and a desire to be distinct. I don't know of a healthy way to stop that. It's OK to an extent, since we need to both belong, and be individual to be healthy.
One perk to being a dad is you get to watch cartoons again without explaining yourself.
kasmic
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5/14/2015 12:30:08 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
The main Pro of this is that everybody would be equal to one another. People wouldn't be divided by class, nor would they be treated differently because they are poor or rich. I guarantee to homeless percentage of people would decline dramatically. Racism probably wouldn't exist as well. Oh giddy imagine where men and women were equal as well!

So is equality a principle that you espouse in general or in specific cases?
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kasmic
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5/14/2015 12:31:48 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
I don't think a classless society is obtainable, so I like the ideal of a quasi meritocracy. I say quasi, because I'd like to have the freedom to provide my children with a comfortable enough life to provide some sort of advantage.

If classless is unattainable, is it worth attempting?
"Liberalism Defined" http://www.debate.org...
"The Social Contract" http://www.debate.org...
"Intro to IR An Open Discussion" http://www.debate.org...

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TN05
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5/14/2015 2:04:47 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/13/2015 4:51:02 PM, kasmic wrote:
I want to start a discussion about socialism. I am going to have different threads on different core tenets of socialism this one is about a Classless society.

What are your thoughts?

I don't think one is feasible or desirable. I don't hold firmly to the idea of rigid classes, but I do recognize they do exist. This video from Margaret Thatcher sums up the kind of problem of that kind of socialism.

Pros? Cons? Etc".

Should we have a classless society. In which way?

Financially? Religiously? Gender? Race? Age?

As a Protestant Christian I believe that there will be no classes among believers in the end, but even in Heaven there will be classes: God at the top, and angels and men beneath him. I don't think we'll see anything close to that on earth.
kasmic
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5/14/2015 3:39:16 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/14/2015 2:04:47 PM, TN05 wrote:
At 5/13/2015 4:51:02 PM, kasmic wrote:
I want to start a discussion about socialism. I am going to have different threads on different core tenets of socialism this one is about a Classless society.

What are your thoughts?

I don't think one is feasible or desirable. I don't hold firmly to the idea of rigid classes, but I do recognize they do exist. This video from Margaret Thatcher sums up the kind of problem of that kind of socialism.



Pros? Cons? Etc".

Should we have a classless society. In which way?

Financially? Religiously? Gender? Race? Age?

As a Protestant Christian I believe that there will be no classes among believers in the end, but even in Heaven there will be classes: God at the top, and angels and men beneath him. I don't think we'll see anything close to that on earth.

Would you say that Christianity supports the concept of equality?
"Liberalism Defined" http://www.debate.org...
"The Social Contract" http://www.debate.org...
"Intro to IR An Open Discussion" http://www.debate.org...

Check out my website, the Sensible Soapbox http://www.sensiblesoapbox.com...
My latest article: http://www.sensiblesoapbox.com...
Greyparrot
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5/14/2015 3:44:32 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/13/2015 6:12:34 PM, Lee001 wrote:
At 5/13/2015 4:51:02 PM, kasmic wrote:
I want to start a discussion about socialism. I am going to have different threads on different core tenets of socialism this one is about a Classless society.

What are your thoughts?

Pros? Cons? Etc".

Should we have a classless society. In which way?

Financially? Religiously? Gender? Race? Age?

The main Pro of this is that everybody would be equal to one another. People wouldn't be divided by class, nor would they be treated differently because they are poor or rich. I guarantee to homeless percentage of people would decline dramatically. Racism probably wouldn't exist as well. Oh giddy imagine where men and women were equal as well!

The main con is that everyone would be treated equally when it's obvious nobody is equal.

Why do you think any -ism movement usually sucks? You can't get a consensus on many things at all. People be different, not from social classes, but by other means.

If we were all equal, then the state could tell you how to be productive and it wouldn't matter to you. But we are not equal and we have things called talents and tastes among other unequal attributes. Class doesn't give us that. Socialism sure as hell won't without some heavy help from Eugenics.
Otokage
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5/14/2015 3:50:40 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/13/2015 4:51:02 PM, kasmic wrote:
I want to start a discussion about socialism. I am going to have different threads on different core tenets of socialism this one is about a Classless society.

What are your thoughts?

Pros? Cons? Etc".

Should we have a classless society. In which way?

Financially?

Financially it would be great to have a classless society as long as everyone is middle-class, and idealy, rich :) I don't see any cons to this. The pros are obvious: no poverty means more safety, more domestic demand, better paid jobs, less capacity to bribe politicans, etc.

Religiously?

No, I don't see the reason why we all should be equal religiously. I mean, I don't see any significant pro to that. People should be allowed to believe what they want, although I would regulate religious propaganda on the country and other measures so religion is not forced on kids by the school, parents, etc.

Gender?

I would only have an issue with those genders that imply a disrespect against other genres, such as the "super manhood" genre and its clear misogyny.

Race?

No. Ending diversity is always catastrophic if applied on any species, humans included.

Age?

Yes, everyone should be forever young and pretty!!! :)
Lee001
Posts: 3,168
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5/14/2015 4:21:24 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/14/2015 12:30:08 PM, kasmic wrote:
The main Pro of this is that everybody would be equal to one another. People wouldn't be divided by class, nor would they be treated differently because they are poor or rich. I guarantee to homeless percentage of people would decline dramatically. Racism probably wouldn't exist as well. Oh giddy imagine where men and women were equal as well!

So is equality a principle that you espouse in general or in specific cases?

In general of course...maybe. Depends on who you are.
"Condoms are societal constructs created by the government to restrain 'Murican freedom!"-SolonKR

"But I jest and digress (sick rhymes, yo); every boob is equal in the eyes of the Lord."- SolonKR

"Oh Hey, Seeing Artichokes Makes Me Want to Have Sex."- SolonKR

"Yep, but anyone who touches my hair immediately ascends to the heavens..You're already an angel, so touching my hair can do nothing <3" -SolonKR

My hubby Hayd <3 <3
TN05
Posts: 4,492
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5/14/2015 6:05:51 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/14/2015 3:39:16 PM, kasmic wrote:
At 5/14/2015 2:04:47 PM, TN05 wrote:
At 5/13/2015 4:51:02 PM, kasmic wrote:
I want to start a discussion about socialism. I am going to have different threads on different core tenets of socialism this one is about a Classless society.

What are your thoughts?

I don't think one is feasible or desirable. I don't hold firmly to the idea of rigid classes, but I do recognize they do exist. This video from Margaret Thatcher sums up the kind of problem of that kind of socialism.



Pros? Cons? Etc".

Should we have a classless society. In which way?

Financially? Religiously? Gender? Race? Age?

As a Protestant Christian I believe that there will be no classes among believers in the end, but even in Heaven there will be classes: God at the top, and angels and men beneath him. I don't think we'll see anything close to that on earth.

Would you say that Christianity supports the concept of equality?

Among persons, yes. Strongly so. As Paul the Apostle said, "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus".

Now, that is who we are as people. Does it mean there will not be Jew or Greek, male or female, slave or free? Of course not. That's part of life. Only in Jesus and in heaven will we find that. It is not the natural way of things on this earth for there to be complete classlessness.
brunoalley
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5/14/2015 6:26:57 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
It depends on what you mean by "classlessness" and "equality."

As a few commenters have mentioned, an absolute equality would be crushing and nightmarish; we need for there to be different outcomes for different actions and behaviors. However, currently the difference in those outcomes are not proportional to the differences in actions. Power tends to accumulate disproportionately, and often rewarding the wrong kind of behaviors and actions.
Someone mentioned a "quasi-meritocracy." This is good, especially if they intend to expand to a larger sense of merit than "whatever I can extract from the common pool." It can reward other value systems as well: cultural worth, dire circumstance, exceptional behavior that might not have an automatic reward.

If "class" means only gradations of difference or horizontal social categories, then I don't think classlessness is desirable. If it means, as it often does, the inherited or unearned advantage and disadvantages of social groups (despite whether a "good few" can escape its inertia) then yes, I'd hope for a future without class.
kasmic
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5/15/2015 10:48:58 AM
Posted: 1 year ago

Among persons, yes. Strongly so. As Paul the Apostle said, "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus".

Romans 2:11 Act 10:34 God is no respecter of persons.
Romans 10:12 "No difference"

I agree.

The God of the Bible views all people as his children and is no respecter of persons. He does not see us in any sort of class distinction.
"Liberalism Defined" http://www.debate.org...
"The Social Contract" http://www.debate.org...
"Intro to IR An Open Discussion" http://www.debate.org...

Check out my website, the Sensible Soapbox http://www.sensiblesoapbox.com...
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Greyparrot
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5/15/2015 10:54:54 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/15/2015 10:48:58 AM, kasmic wrote:

Among persons, yes. Strongly so. As Paul the Apostle said, "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus".

Romans 2:11 Act 10:34 God is no respecter of persons.
Romans 10:12 "No difference"

I agree.

The God of the Bible views all people as his children and is no respecter of persons. He does not see us in any sort of class distinction.

What God are you referring to? A non judgmental god with no code?
Good and Evil are classes are they not?
kasmic
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5/15/2015 11:07:01 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
What God are you referring to? A non judgmental god with no code?
Good and Evil are classes are they not?

Interesting point. Good and evil are classes I suppose... Let me think on that a bit haha. I am referring to the God of the Bible though I recognize that many people have different views as to his persona.
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Wylted
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5/15/2015 11:23:11 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/14/2015 12:31:48 PM, kasmic wrote:
I don't think a classless society is obtainable, so I like the ideal of a quasi meritocracy. I say quasi, because I'd like to have the freedom to provide my children with a comfortable enough life to provide some sort of advantage.

If classless is unattainable, is it worth attempting?

I don't believe so, I don't understand why one would be desirable. I know poverty sucks and it may be worth some effort to curb that, but I'm not sure why anyone would want a classless society. Maybe I can be enlightened
eagleoftheeast
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5/15/2015 11:41:33 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/15/2015 11:23:11 PM, Wylted wrote:
At 5/14/2015 12:31:48 PM, kasmic wrote:
I don't think a classless society is obtainable, so I like the ideal of a quasi meritocracy. I say quasi, because I'd like to have the freedom to provide my children with a comfortable enough life to provide some sort of advantage.

If classless is unattainable, is it worth attempting?

I don't believe so, I don't understand why one would be desirable. I know poverty sucks and it may be worth some effort to curb that, but I'm not sure why anyone would want a classless society. Maybe I can be enlightened

you're absolutely right. Classes and hierarchy have always been an integral of civilization. They create order and everyone can thrive. Just like confucius said that if the higher class is benevolent and leading and and lower class obediently follows everyone is happy and inequality is used to benefit everybody.
AdamEsk
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5/16/2015 12:33:06 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/13/2015 4:51:02 PM, kasmic wrote:
I want to start a discussion about socialism. I am going to have different threads on different core tenets of socialism this one is about a Classless society.

What are your thoughts?

What is the goal society is trying to achieve? Is it to obtain prosperity and advance technologically for a better standard of living? Or is it simply to survive without poverty?

Throughout history, it seems as if the United States' societal goal has been in pursuit of technological advancement. Therefore, the best way to continue that mission is to leave wealth as an incentive for innovation.

However, maybe is it time to focus on boosting that lower class towards middle status? If that is the case, I still think a perfect socialist society is less plausible than a class-structured society. Logically, it makes more sense to let ambitious people do whatever it takes to become wealthy, and then incentivize them to aid the lower classes than it does to disincentivize them from being ambitious in the first place.
Harper
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5/16/2015 9:22:43 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/13/2015 4:51:02 PM, kasmic wrote:
I want to start a discussion about socialism. I am going to have different threads on different core tenets of socialism this one is about a Classless society.

What are your thoughts?

Pros? Cons? Etc".

Should we have a classless society. In which way?

Financially? Religiously? Gender? Race? Age?
How would one even achieve classless society? It doesn't seem practical. Class systems naturally form in human society because people are not equal-- some are smarter than the others and will rise to the top, others can only achieve so much.
mindbender
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5/16/2015 9:58:16 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/13/2015 4:51:02 PM, kasmic wrote:
I want to start a discussion about socialism. I am going to have different threads on different core tenets of socialism this one is about a Classless society.

What are your thoughts?

Pros? Cons? Etc".

Should we have a classless society. In which way?

Financially? Religiously? Gender? Race? Age? : :

It would be an awesome way to experience life in this world but I'm afraid it won't work. There are too many people who love materialism more than other people.
thett3
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5/16/2015 11:23:53 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
I don't even know what this means. Social class has been a permanent fixture in every human society I can think of throughout history. All that remains to be questioned is the degree in importance of social class in a society, but the thought of doing away with it altogether seems impossible
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hatshepsut
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5/17/2015 7:15:55 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/13/2015 4:51:02 PM, kasmic wrote:
Should we have a classless society. In which way?

The question should be, is this possible? The answer is probably no: A truly classless modern society is impossible. Social hierarchy and Elites arise whenever you have a state. There's no way around this iron law. No classless society has ever existed throughout history. (The small human bands and tribes of prehistory did lack classes because they were too small to support a social pyramid, but this kind of social organization is no longer a factor in our world.)

The major attempts to create a classless society, the Soviet Union and People's Rep. of China, did not achieve their goal. Regardless of euphemism or nomenclature, both countries had a ruling class, a middle class of managers and technical experts, and a lower class of laborers.

Welfare-state countries like Sweden do guarantee subsidized access to certain basic goods and services, like housing and health care, in a way that the United States does not. But this shouldn't be conflated with some fancied elimination of class structure. Swedish society has a class system just as America's does, and the gap between top and bottom is almost as great.
16kadams
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5/18/2015 8:16:44 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/13/2015 6:12:34 PM, Lee001 wrote:
At 5/13/2015 4:51:02 PM, kasmic wrote:
I want to start a discussion about socialism. I am going to have different threads on different core tenets of socialism this one is about a Classless society.

What are your thoughts?

Pros? Cons? Etc".

Should we have a classless society. In which way?

Financially? Religiously? Gender? Race? Age?

The main Pro of this is that everybody would be equal to one another. People wouldn't be divided by class, nor would they be treated differently because they are poor or rich. I guarantee to homeless percentage of people would decline dramatically. Racism probably wouldn't exist as well. Oh giddy imagine where men and women were equal as well!

Homelessness would probably increase. The issue with one class is that it would get rid of incentives. A Ponzi scheme needs more workers than receivers. Socialism would create more receivers because they are theoretically better off not working, and reduces the number of workers because they have no incentive (money) to work hard.

Also equality isn't always a good thing. People are not always equal. We should have the same rights and opportunities, but not the same outcomes. If you work hard and make $500,000 a year, would it be fair if couch potato 16k made that much?

You can make a case for redistribution, but pure equality is dumb.
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16kadams
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5/18/2015 8:22:16 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/16/2015 12:33:06 AM, AdamEsk wrote:
At 5/13/2015 4:51:02 PM, kasmic wrote:
I want to start a discussion about socialism. I am going to have different threads on different core tenets of socialism this one is about a Classless society.

What are your thoughts?

What is the goal society is trying to achieve? Is it to obtain prosperity and advance technologically for a better standard of living? Or is it simply to survive without poverty?

Throughout history, it seems as if the United States' societal goal has been in pursuit of technological advancement. Therefore, the best way to continue that mission is to leave wealth as an incentive for innovation.

However, maybe is it time to focus on boosting that lower class towards middle status? If that is the case, I still think a perfect socialist society is less plausible than a class-structured society. Logically, it makes more sense to let ambitious people do whatever it takes to become wealthy, and then incentivize them to aid the lower classes than it does to disincentivize them from being ambitious in the first place.

Economic growth is actually the best thing for poverty reduction. Capitalism has dramatically reduced global poverty. Socialism would cause more perry because it causes less growth. You need revenue to continue keeping the living standard of the class high, but since having one class discourages work for the smart and hard working, you would end up with decreasing living standards for everyone.
https://www.youtube.com...
https://rekonomics.wordpress.com...
"A trend is a trend, but the question is, will it bend? Will it alter its course through some unforeseen force and come to a premature end?" -- Alec Cairncross