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Hiroshima

Zeitgeist
Posts: 430
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8/7/2010 12:23:36 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
Yesterday was the anniversary of the first use of atomic weapons in war. Here's a bit of a rant about it and what followed on.

To start with quote ….

In the early morning hours of August 6, 1945, a B-29 bomber named Enola Gay took off from the island of Tinian and headed north by northwest toward Japan. The bomber's primary target was the city of Hiroshima, located on the deltas of southwestern Honshu Island facing the Inland Sea. Hiroshima had a civilian population of almost 300,000 and was an important military center, containing about 43,000 soldiers.

We know what happened, and what then happened at Nagasaki, and how it brought Japan to surrender without the otherwise calamitous loss of life that would have resulted if the US had pressed on for their demand for the utter defeat of Japan. A thing that was utterly unacceptable for the Japanese character until faced with obliteration which is what was threatened.

There was an alternative to the use of atomic weapons, a negotiated armistice and then cessation of hostilities. Especially as the Russians were advancing on Japan big-time and opinion was that the Japanese would have been open to this. But it didn't include the "smack in the mouth" for what Japan had done in Pearl Harbour and that finally brought the US into WW2.

And yet …….. atomic weapons have probably been responsible for the absence of a WW3 and the saving of millions of lives, but only thanks (and it IS thanks) to the very brave actions of people who read the runes and passed information to the USSR in order that country could develop an atomic capability commensurate with that of the US

Key players in this were Julius and Ethel Rosenberg who were executed as spies for providing the USSR with information that allowed the USSR to rapidly reach equilibrium as far as weapon capability with the US was concerned and so took away the opportunity for the US to use military hegemony to the extent that it otherwise would have.

The Rosenbergs were executed, and yet they and other "spies" are probably responsible for a degree of peace over the past 60 years that would never have been possible had the USSR not had nuclear capability roughly in line with the other nuclear superpower, the US.

The effect was to create a position of Mutually Assured Destruction. Both sides knew that if they attacked the other utter devastation would be the result for themselves. It caused the Cold War to remain "cold", a war between the West and the East, usually fought in other peoples countries.

Conflicts with the nationals of the other countries being the principle casualties, but nevertheless in spite of a close shave in Korea when in 1950 the US were within a hairs breadth of using its atomic muscle in the conflict the cold war remained cold especially after the first USSR fission weapon was tested successfully in 1949….

Now we are on the eve of Iran testing its first atomic bomb.

When it does Mutually Assured Destruction will have lost its spell because a people who see death in pursuit of attacking enemies of Islam as martyrdom gaining them an immediate entry to Paradise see no destruction. Just the opposite.

The world is about to become a very much more dangerous place.

For anyone interested in some heavyweight study of the events surrounding the development and use of the Atomic bomb here's a place where original bona-fide sources can be found.

http://www.gwu.edu...
I-am-a-panda
Posts: 15,380
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8/7/2010 6:23:09 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
Hiroshima -> Cold War -> MAD -> Evil Iran developing Nukes

The first post went off topic, but that's DDO for ya.
Pizza. I have enormous respect for Pizza.
Zeitgeist
Posts: 430
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8/7/2010 6:29:30 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/7/2010 6:23:09 AM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
Hiroshima -> Cold War -> MAD -> Evil Iran developing Nukes

The first post went off topic, but that's DDO for ya.

Or is it a narative startiing from Hiroshima leading to where we are heading today?

BTW - What's DDO?

Really, I have no idea.
I-am-a-panda
Posts: 15,380
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8/7/2010 6:37:25 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/7/2010 6:29:30 AM, Zeitgeist wrote:
At 8/7/2010 6:23:09 AM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
Hiroshima -> Cold War -> MAD -> Evil Iran developing Nukes

The first post went off topic, but that's DDO for ya.

Or is it a narative startiing from Hiroshima leading to where we are heading today?


BTW - What's DDO?

Really, I have no idea.

DDO is an abbreviation of Debate Dot Org
Pizza. I have enormous respect for Pizza.
Zeitgeist
Posts: 430
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8/7/2010 6:54:51 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/7/2010 6:37:25 AM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
At 8/7/2010 6:29:30 AM, Zeitgeist wrote:
At 8/7/2010 6:23:09 AM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
Hiroshima -> Cold War -> MAD -> Evil Iran developing Nukes

The first post went off topic, but that's DDO for ya.

Or is it a narative startiing from Hiroshima leading to where we are heading today?


BTW - What's DDO?

Really, I have no idea.

DDO is an abbreviation of Debate Dot Org

LOL!

Bit bloody obvious when you think about it!
Strikeeagle84015
Posts: 867
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8/7/2010 10:12:27 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
Yes because all of those 100 of millions of people executed by the Soviet Union and the steady degradation of life that the USSR inflicted on its citizens for 60 years totally outweighed the costs of one war that could've ushered in an era of peace unknown to humanity before
: At 8/17/2010 7:17:56 AM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
: Hey dawg, i herd you like evangelical trolls so we put a bible thumper in yo bible thumper so you can troll while you troll!

Arguing with an atheist about God is very similar to arguing with a blind man about what the Sistine Chapel looks like
Marilyn Poe

Strikeeagle wrote
The only way I will stop believing in God is if he appeared before me and told me that he did not exist.
Volkov
Posts: 9,765
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8/7/2010 10:41:27 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/7/2010 10:12:27 AM, Strikeeagle84015 wrote:
Yes because all of those 100 of millions of people executed by the Soviet Union and the steady degradation of life that the USSR inflicted on its citizens for 60 years totally outweighed the costs of one war that could've ushered in an era of peace unknown to humanity before

Probably, given that a large nuclear war would have wiped out quite a lot more people, would have lead to more hardened and extreme political situations, and would have severely affect both our environment, our climate, and our way of life.

I mean, it's kind of the collapse of society and the world as we know it. Cynical as it sounds, I'd take the tragedy that was the USSR over that.

Besides, what guarantee do you have that it would "usher in an era of peace unknown to humanity before"? We're a destructive species - a big nuclear war isn't going to solve that.
Rob1Billion
Posts: 1,338
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8/7/2010 11:20:27 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
While we have definitely destroyed our fair share, I wouldn't say we are inherently "destructive" in nature. We are inherently proud and greedy, and until we realize how to identify human vice and avoid it we will continue to destroy. So keep waiving your country's flag and hoping for world peace.
Master P is the end result of capitalism.
badger
Posts: 11,793
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8/7/2010 11:29:21 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/7/2010 11:20:27 AM, Rob1Billion wrote:
While we have definitely destroyed our fair share, I wouldn't say we are inherently "destructive" in nature. We are inherently proud and greedy, and until we realize how to identify human vice and avoid it we will continue to destroy. So keep waiving your country's flag and hoping for world peace.

you'll never see your dreams become reality with world peace.
signature
Strikeeagle84015
Posts: 867
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8/7/2010 1:00:43 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/7/2010 11:29:21 AM, badger wrote:
At 8/7/2010 11:20:27 AM, Rob1Billion wrote:
While we have definitely destroyed our fair share, I wouldn't say we are inherently "destructive" in nature. We are inherently proud and greedy, and until we realize how to identify human vice and avoid it we will continue to destroy. So keep waiving your country's flag and hoping for world peace.

you'll never see your dreams become reality with world peace.

I will someday may not be in the near future but I will and actually I was bashing the glorification of the Rosenbergs if the US could've attacked the USSR before they got nukes we would've won
: At 8/17/2010 7:17:56 AM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
: Hey dawg, i herd you like evangelical trolls so we put a bible thumper in yo bible thumper so you can troll while you troll!

Arguing with an atheist about God is very similar to arguing with a blind man about what the Sistine Chapel looks like
Marilyn Poe

Strikeeagle wrote
The only way I will stop believing in God is if he appeared before me and told me that he did not exist.
Volkov
Posts: 9,765
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8/7/2010 1:05:05 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/7/2010 1:00:43 PM, Strikeeagle84015 wrote:
I will someday may not be in the near future but I will and actually I was bashing the glorification of the Rosenbergs if the US could've attacked the USSR before they got nukes we would've won

Benefit of hindsight, much? Besides, I don't think nuking millions of people is exactly a "win."
Strikeeagle84015
Posts: 867
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8/7/2010 4:23:32 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/7/2010 1:05:05 PM, Volkov wrote:
At 8/7/2010 1:00:43 PM, Strikeeagle84015 wrote:
I will someday may not be in the near future but I will and actually I was bashing the glorification of the Rosenbergs if the US could've attacked the USSR before they got nukes we would've won

Benefit of hindsight, much? Besides, I don't think nuking millions of people is exactly a "win."

We wouldn't have had to resort to Nukes the US productive capability far outstripped that of the USSR in addition Churchill would've been willing to go to war with the USSR. I am fairly certain we could've beat them in addition it would almost be impossible for more people to be killed in a hypothetical US, USSR war at the end of World War 2 than were actually killed in the cold war including those killed as political opponents in the USSR, those killed in Soviet supported coups and attempted coups, the Vietnam and Korean War, espionage operations, and in the USSR Afghan war.
: At 8/17/2010 7:17:56 AM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
: Hey dawg, i herd you like evangelical trolls so we put a bible thumper in yo bible thumper so you can troll while you troll!

Arguing with an atheist about God is very similar to arguing with a blind man about what the Sistine Chapel looks like
Marilyn Poe

Strikeeagle wrote
The only way I will stop believing in God is if he appeared before me and told me that he did not exist.
I-am-a-panda
Posts: 15,380
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8/7/2010 4:26:31 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/7/2010 4:23:32 PM, Strikeeagle84015 wrote:
At 8/7/2010 1:05:05 PM, Volkov wrote:
At 8/7/2010 1:00:43 PM, Strikeeagle84015 wrote:
I will someday may not be in the near future but I will and actually I was bashing the glorification of the Rosenbergs if the US could've attacked the USSR before they got nukes we would've won

Benefit of hindsight, much? Besides, I don't think nuking millions of people is exactly a "win."

We wouldn't have had to resort to Nukes the US productive capability far outstripped that of the USSR in addition Churchill would've been willing to go to war with the USSR. I am fairly certain we could've beat them in addition it would almost be impossible for more people to be killed in a hypothetical US, USSR war at the end of World War 2 than were actually killed in the cold war including those killed as political opponents in the USSR, those killed in Soviet supported coups and attempted coups, the Vietnam and Korean War, espionage operations, and in the USSR Afghan war.

Look at the shoot to kill ratio of US soldiers. Very few US soldiers shot to kill. The Russians, however, did shoot to kill by a large majority. Keep in mind it was July, so they had ~3 Months to get to Moscow, from West Europe.
Pizza. I have enormous respect for Pizza.
Strikeeagle84015
Posts: 867
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8/7/2010 4:31:09 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/7/2010 4:26:31 PM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
At 8/7/2010 4:23:32 PM, Strikeeagle84015 wrote:
At 8/7/2010 1:05:05 PM, Volkov wrote:
At 8/7/2010 1:00:43 PM, Strikeeagle84015 wrote:
I will someday may not be in the near future but I will and actually I was bashing the glorification of the Rosenbergs if the US could've attacked the USSR before they got nukes we would've won

Benefit of hindsight, much? Besides, I don't think nuking millions of people is exactly a "win."

We wouldn't have had to resort to Nukes the US productive capability far outstripped that of the USSR in addition Churchill would've been willing to go to war with the USSR. I am fairly certain we could've beat them in addition it would almost be impossible for more people to be killed in a hypothetical US, USSR war at the end of World War 2 than were actually killed in the cold war including those killed as political opponents in the USSR, those killed in Soviet supported coups and attempted coups, the Vietnam and Korean War, espionage operations, and in the USSR Afghan war.

Look at the shoot to kill ratio of US soldiers. Very few US soldiers shot to kill. The Russians, however, did shoot to kill by a large majority. Keep in mind it was July, so they had ~3 Months to get to Moscow, from West Europe.

I am not suggesting an actual invasion of Russia but we could've liberated eastern Europe sixty years earlier, in a addition there were plenty of gurrellias and freedom fighters in the USSR that would've helped us overthrow Stalin, and if worse came to worse we had Nukes drop one of those on Moscow and "boom no more Chinese laundry"
In addition we had Italy and France to help us and the resources of the former Japanese empire. In addition even though the Russians had more troops they had far less ability to arm their troops. Ultimately war is almost always an economic undertaking and the side that can best produce is the one that wins.
: At 8/17/2010 7:17:56 AM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
: Hey dawg, i herd you like evangelical trolls so we put a bible thumper in yo bible thumper so you can troll while you troll!

Arguing with an atheist about God is very similar to arguing with a blind man about what the Sistine Chapel looks like
Marilyn Poe

Strikeeagle wrote
The only way I will stop believing in God is if he appeared before me and told me that he did not exist.
MikeLoviN
Posts: 746
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8/7/2010 4:55:54 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/7/2010 4:31:09 PM, Strikeeagle84015 wrote:
In addition even though the Russians had more troops they had far less ability to arm their troops. Ultimately war is almost always an economic undertaking and the side that can best produce is the one that wins.

Afghanistan, Vietnam, and Korea would all beg to differ.
Zeitgeist
Posts: 430
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8/7/2010 11:28:45 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/7/2010 4:23:32 PM, Strikeeagle84015 wrote:


We wouldn't have had to resort to Nukes the US productive capability far outstripped that of the USSR in addition Churchill would've been willing to go to war with the USSR. I am fairly certain we could've beat them in addition it would almost be impossible for more people to be killed in a hypothetical US, USSR war at the end of World War 2 than were actually killed in the cold war including those killed as political opponents in the USSR, those killed in Soviet supported coups and attempted coups, the Vietnam and Korean War, espionage operations, and in the USSR Afghan war.

The steady degradation of life the USSR inflicted on its citizens?

What planet are you on!

Before the Russian revolution life for the average Russian peasant was worse than dreadful! The huge improvements made in the lives of the vast majority have always been played down in The West, especially in the US where Communism was a real and present fear especially in the late 20's and 30's because for many people communism offered more than The American Way.

As for "100 of millions of people executed by the Soviet Union" that is utter nonsense.

There were 50 million people of the USSR who were killed in the war with Germany, another thing frequently forgotten, and there were millions killed in the various purges to keep the development of Russia and the USSR on track because of the number of people who were trying to feather their own nests at the cost of the majority but the idea that there were hundreds of millions is sheer fantasy.

What was done was hard and at times brutal but no more hard than whet the people had experienced under the disgusting Czar and his hangers on, if anything far less so and certainly not widespread. It had the effect of seeing a huge nation move from where the majority lived the life of medieval serfdom or worse to live a life that was civilised, developed, and as near as makes no odds to that of the people in the west. A highly industrialised technically competent society in which most never went to bed hungry and all within the space of 50 years. That's a whole lot better than we in the West achieved.

I wonder if you ever visited the USSR. I did, on several occasions from the mid 70's both on business and on two occasions on vacation and what I found was so totally different from what I had expected based on what I had read and seen on films and TV as to be staggering.

There were some shortages, but not many. There were some sullen people lounging around, but far fewer than I'd seen in NY and London, and over the years I saw how life improved each time I visited.

But one thing seems to be overlooked. Many people WANTED to live in a communist state. They WANTED to be socialist, they didn't like the shortages of all the luxury goods that they saw available in the West, but they certainly weren't desperate to adopt Western politics. In fact today there is a substantial and rapidly increasing percentage of people who would be delighted to return to a communist government and live as socialists.

As for invading the USSR, what utter arrogance. What gives people, especially the Americans the right to even think that it would have been the "right" thing to do other than to destroy an emerging superpower that was the only defence to US hegemony?

As for help by Italy and France. You MUST be joking! Especially in the case of Italy even more so than France and they would have absolutely opposed any such move and Russian armaments were FAR from inadequate. Russia very soon matched the West and then in certain fields rapidly overtook us.

Have you ever watched the Russian space launches? Two very obvious things are at once obvious. The staggeringly higher reliability of their launch vehicles even now when failures that were hushed up are being made known and secondly how much smaller the Russian rocketry is compared to the huge lumbering US things to do the same job.

Liberate the USSR? Do people not grasp the simple fact that with the huge population of the USSR if the majority of the people of the USSR didn't want to remain a part of the USSR they would not have done something about it? Or that the revolutions in a couple of states such as Czechoslovakia, an uneasy federation as events later showed were not fueled by interference from outside?

Eventually the USSR did disintegrate, it did so when time and sentiment was right, but even now there is a close federation of states who WANT to be joined. It's just a pity that the US can't see the real Russian Federation as it is today but I guess it's much easier to have a "red under the bed" as a scapegoat.

As for the Vietnam farce, let's keep in mind it was a war in which the US sided with a corrupt unpopular government against the Vietnam peasantry who just wanted to get shut of the corruption and get a fair crack of the whip. Korea? Another mess that need never have happened if the plans for the area had been followed through but they were not because of a corrupt government in the South and the US backing it.

Let's not forget Cuba. Peasantry being crushed by a corrupt government that was eventually deposed and the US's actions in this? Look at how Cuba is STILL being ostracized because the little guy did good.