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Can a pro-choice person be against abortion?

Nac
Posts: 326
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5/18/2015 11:58:40 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Often times, I am conflicted on my view of abortion. While I personally find it immoral to abort (barring cases of rape or life threatening situations, I do not believe it should be illegal. I believe that morality is subjective and, therefore, an individual choice should be made by the person involved in the predicament, regardless of my personal opinion. Women should not be robbed of the right to decide what they should do with their body, but I personally think that a certain course of action is wrong.

So I believe that they should choose and that it is immoral. Can these coexist? Or are they inconsistent? OR am I completely misunderstanding one side of the issue, and have only one specific view?

All comments are appreciated.

Thank you!!
16kadams
Posts: 10,497
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5/18/2015 12:17:45 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
I don't see why not. If you think the benefits of abortion on a societal level outweigh the costs, then you can be for it. There are ways I can see pro life People support choice.

- if abortion bans do not reduce the number of abortions, there is no reason to ban them
> and if a ban makes it unsafe, which it would, reducing the number is essential to outweigh it. If it stays the same, legality makes sense

- abortion lowers crime
> eh. The theory has some support but I don't buy it. Evidence to the contrary is stronger, but no effect is more likely.

- abortion bans harm women

- kids not aborted will live bad lives
> adoption can't handle the new people

I support abortion bans, but I can see how a pro-life person could oppose abortion bans.
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jnedwards11
Posts: 351
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5/18/2015 12:22:26 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/18/2015 11:58:40 AM, Nac wrote:
Often times, I am conflicted on my view of abortion. While I personally find it immoral to abort (barring cases of rape or life threatening situations, I do not believe it should be illegal. I believe that morality is subjective and, therefore, an individual choice should be made by the person involved in the predicament, regardless of my personal opinion. Women should not be robbed of the right to decide what they should do with their body, but I personally think that a certain course of action is wrong.

So I believe that they should choose and that it is immoral. Can these coexist? Or are they inconsistent? OR am I completely misunderstanding one side of the issue, and have only one specific view?

All comments are appreciated.

Thank you!!

Well if you are wrong, you're not alone. I feel pretty much the same way for pretty much the same reasons.
Nac
Posts: 326
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5/18/2015 1:32:56 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/18/2015 12:17:45 PM, 16kadams wrote:
I don't see why not. If you think the benefits of abortion on a societal level outweigh the costs, then you can be for it. There are ways I can see pro life People support choice.

- if abortion bans do not reduce the number of abortions, there is no reason to ban them
> and if a ban makes it unsafe, which it would, reducing the number is essential to outweigh it. If it stays the same, legality makes sense

- abortion lowers crime
> eh. The theory has some support but I don't buy it. Evidence to the contrary is stronger, but no effect is more likely.

- abortion bans harm women

- kids not aborted will live bad lives
> adoption can't handle the new people

I support abortion bans, but I can see how a pro-life person could oppose abortion bans.

I suppose I am in the third category. Would it include decreasing their free will?
Nac
Posts: 326
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5/18/2015 1:34:17 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/18/2015 12:22:26 PM, jnedwards11 wrote:
At 5/18/2015 11:58:40 AM, Nac wrote:
Often times, I am conflicted on my view of abortion. While I personally find it immoral to abort (barring cases of rape or life threatening situations, I do not believe it should be illegal. I believe that morality is subjective and, therefore, an individual choice should be made by the person involved in the predicament, regardless of my personal opinion. Women should not be robbed of the right to decide what they should do with their body, but I personally think that a certain course of action is wrong.

So I believe that they should choose and that it is immoral. Can these coexist? Or are they inconsistent? OR am I completely misunderstanding one side of the issue, and have only one specific view?

All comments are appreciated.

Thank you!!

Well if you are wrong, you're not alone. I feel pretty much the same way for pretty much the same reasons.

It can be a bit of a conundrum, can't it?
16kadams
Posts: 10,497
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5/18/2015 5:10:20 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/18/2015 1:32:56 PM, Nac wrote:
At 5/18/2015 12:17:45 PM, 16kadams wrote:
I don't see why not. If you think the benefits of abortion on a societal level outweigh the costs, then you can be for it. There are ways I can see pro life People support choice.

- if abortion bans do not reduce the number of abortions, there is no reason to ban them
> and if a ban makes it unsafe, which it would, reducing the number is essential to outweigh it. If it stays the same, legality makes sense

- abortion lowers crime
> eh. The theory has some support but I don't buy it. Evidence to the contrary is stronger, but no effect is more likely.

- abortion bans harm women

- kids not aborted will live bad lives
> adoption can't handle the new people

I support abortion bans, but I can see how a pro-life person could oppose abortion bans.

I suppose I am in the third category. Would it include decreasing their free will?

Yeah, self autonomy. But since you seem to think that a fetus is morally equivalent to a fully developed human, you would have to justify self autonomy over the right to life.
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Nac
Posts: 326
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5/18/2015 5:36:31 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/18/2015 5:10:20 PM, 16kadams wrote:
At 5/18/2015 1:32:56 PM, Nac wrote:
At 5/18/2015 12:17:45 PM, 16kadams wrote:
I don't see why not. If you think the benefits of abortion on a societal level outweigh the costs, then you can be for it. There are ways I can see pro life People support choice.

- if abortion bans do not reduce the number of abortions, there is no reason to ban them
> and if a ban makes it unsafe, which it would, reducing the number is essential to outweigh it. If it stays the same, legality makes sense

- abortion lowers crime
> eh. The theory has some support but I don't buy it. Evidence to the contrary is stronger, but no effect is more likely.

- abortion bans harm women

- kids not aborted will live bad lives
> adoption can't handle the new people

I support abortion bans, but I can see how a pro-life person could oppose abortion bans.

I suppose I am in the third category. Would it include decreasing their free will?

Yeah, self autonomy. But since you seem to think that a fetus is morally equivalent to a fully developed human, you would have to justify self autonomy over the right to life.

Therein lies the problem. I don't believe that it should be so. I believe that the state should not intervene, but that it is morally wrong. Essentially, I am a moral subjectivist who does not wish to push his morality onto others. Therefore, though I believe it is immoral myself, I disagree with a general ban.

I think that the situation is completely up to the mother's decision. It should be discouraged and disputed by others, I would concede, but it should not be banned.

I would suppose that this makes me pro-choice, but I wished to see if they are capable of coexisting.

Thank you for aiding me in this endeavor.
ford_prefect
Posts: 4,139
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5/18/2015 6:30:20 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
I believe murder is morally wrong, but the government shouldn't ban murder. After all, murder bans probably don't decrease the number of murders. If we outlaw murder, people will just continue to murder illegally. And it will be underground black market murdering, so it will be less safe for all involved.

Also, I don't want to impose my moral code on other people. Just because I think murder is wrong doesn't mean I have the right to create laws that prevent other people from murdering. We have to respect the murderer's right to decide for themselves whether or not to murder.

/sarcasm
xus00HAY
Posts: 1,390
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5/20/2015 11:58:41 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
You must also consider the issue of if men are the masters then women are slaves.
back in the day, a woman needed to snag a husband so if she got pregnant there would be a man to go out and earn money while she stayed home and took care of the kids. Things changed in the 1960s. women took the birth control pill and got abortions.
While the pill is not 100%, it is close to that, and a safe and legal abortion can act as a guarantee. The result is today's woman chooses if or when she gets married.
For a woman to be against abortion she is a traitor.
A feminist believes that a fertilized egg cell is not a person, and legal abortions are completely different than getting hold of a woman who will be giving birth next week, and sticking her with a very long needle that will inject poison when the tip reaches the center of the baby. Their opponents are mean old men who want them to keep popping out kids so they can molest them, , So you don't want abortions, Well if you guys could stop abortion, the supply of new victims will still be in business, you can count on that.
Blade-of-Truth
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5/21/2015 4:33:57 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/18/2015 11:58:40 AM, Nac wrote:
Often times, I am conflicted on my view of abortion. While I personally find it immoral to abort (barring cases of rape or life threatening situations), I do not believe it should be illegal. I believe that morality is subjective and, therefore, an individual choice should be made by the person involved in the predicament, regardless of my personal opinion. Women should not be robbed of the right to decide what they should do with their body, but I personally think that a certain course of action is wrong.

I share your sentiments to a tee. I always thought my stance on the matter was unique, so I'm pleasantly surprised to see someone else with the exact same view as me.
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EndarkenedRationalist
Posts: 14,201
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5/21/2015 5:36:01 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/18/2015 11:58:40 AM, Nac wrote:
Often times, I am conflicted on my view of abortion. While I personally find it immoral to abort (barring cases of rape or life threatening situations, I do not believe it should be illegal. I believe that morality is subjective and, therefore, an individual choice should be made by the person involved in the predicament, regardless of my personal opinion. Women should not be robbed of the right to decide what they should do with their body, but I personally think that a certain course of action is wrong.

So I believe that they should choose and that it is immoral. Can these coexist? Or are they inconsistent? OR am I completely misunderstanding one side of the issue, and have only one specific view?

All comments are appreciated.

Thank you!!

That's exactly my position, so I think you're fine.
Nac
Posts: 326
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5/21/2015 6:36:49 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/18/2015 6:30:20 PM, ford_prefect wrote:
I believe murder is morally wrong, but the government shouldn't ban murder. After all, murder bans probably don't decrease the number of murders. If we outlaw murder, people will just continue to murder illegally. And it will be underground black market murdering, so it will be less safe for all involved.

Also, I don't want to impose my moral code on other people. Just because I think murder is wrong doesn't mean I have the right to create laws that prevent other people from murdering. We have to respect the murderer's right to decide for themselves whether or not to murder.

/sarcasm

If you do not mind, please compare the reasons for each action.

Would you say they come from the same core position?

Additionally, is murder not justified in certain conditions (e.g. when defending another person)? Isn't it murder if it is done with malicious intent, which could be present towards the individual (the person you are defending is someone you care about, so you then hate the aggressor)?
Nac
Posts: 326
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5/21/2015 6:40:57 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/20/2015 11:58:41 PM, xus00HAY wrote:
You must also consider the issue of if men are the masters then women are slaves.
back in the day, a woman needed to snag a husband so if she got pregnant there would be a man to go out and earn money while she stayed home and took care of the kids. Things changed in the 1960s. women took the birth control pill and got abortions.
While the pill is not 100%, it is close to that, and a safe and legal abortion can act as a guarantee. The result is today's woman chooses if or when she gets married.
For a woman to be against abortion she is a traitor.
A feminist believes that a fertilized egg cell is not a person, and legal abortions are completely different than getting hold of a woman who will be giving birth next week, and sticking her with a very long needle that will inject poison when the tip reaches the center of the baby. Their opponents are mean old men who want them to keep popping out kids so they can molest them, , So you don't want abortions, Well if you guys could stop abortion, the supply of new victims will still be in business, you can count on that.

Your point here seems to be a strawman. Though I disagree with ford_prefect above, I would not say his rhetoric for opposing abortion is driven by molestation. Most of them disagree on the grounds that it is tantamount to murder.
Nac
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5/21/2015 6:54:01 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/21/2015 5:36:01 AM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
At 5/18/2015 11:58:40 AM, Nac wrote:
Often times, I am conflicted on my view of abortion. While I personally find it immoral to abort (barring cases of rape or life threatening situations, I do not believe it should be illegal. I believe that morality is subjective and, therefore, an individual choice should be made by the person involved in the predicament, regardless of my personal opinion. Women should not be robbed of the right to decide what they should do with their body, but I personally think that a certain course of action is wrong.

So I believe that they should choose and that it is immoral. Can these coexist? Or are they inconsistent? OR am I completely misunderstanding one side of the issue, and have only one specific view?

All comments are appreciated.

Thank you!!

That's exactly my position, so I think you're fine.

Thank you.
Nac
Posts: 326
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5/21/2015 6:55:37 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/21/2015 4:33:57 AM, Blade-of-Truth wrote:
At 5/18/2015 11:58:40 AM, Nac wrote:
Often times, I am conflicted on my view of abortion. While I personally find it immoral to abort (barring cases of rape or life threatening situations), I do not believe it should be illegal. I believe that morality is subjective and, therefore, an individual choice should be made by the person involved in the predicament, regardless of my personal opinion. Women should not be robbed of the right to decide what they should do with their body, but I personally think that a certain course of action is wrong.

I share your sentiments to a tee. I always thought my stance on the matter was unique, so I'm pleasantly surprised to see someone else with the exact same view as me.

Same here. It always pleases me when someone empathizes with me on an issue I thought no one else has encountered.
slo1
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5/21/2015 8:19:50 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/18/2015 11:58:40 AM, Nac wrote:
Often times, I am conflicted on my view of abortion. While I personally find it immoral to abort (barring cases of rape or life threatening situations, I do not believe it should be illegal. I believe that morality is subjective and, therefore, an individual choice should be made by the person involved in the predicament, regardless of my personal opinion. Women should not be robbed of the right to decide what they should do with their body, but I personally think that a certain course of action is wrong.

So I believe that they should choose and that it is immoral. Can these coexist? Or are they inconsistent? OR am I completely misunderstanding one side of the issue, and have only one specific view?

All comments are appreciated.

Thank you!!

You are simply not using a "right to life" determination to your opposition or displeasure to abortion, so you can be congruent. If one, however, believes a fetus has a right to life, one would have to support a ban on abortions regardless of the social outcomes such as people doing black market procedures. Once would also have to abandon the premise of exceptions such as in cases of rape. If a fetus has a right to life, it has it no matter how it was conceived.
lannan13
Posts: 23,075
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5/21/2015 8:23:55 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/18/2015 11:58:40 AM, Nac wrote:
Often times, I am conflicted on my view of abortion. While I personally find it immoral to abort (barring cases of rape or life threatening situations, I do not believe it should be illegal. I believe that morality is subjective and, therefore, an individual choice should be made by the person involved in the predicament, regardless of my personal opinion. Women should not be robbed of the right to decide what they should do with their body, but I personally think that a certain course of action is wrong.

So I believe that they should choose and that it is immoral. Can these coexist? Or are they inconsistent? OR am I completely misunderstanding one side of the issue, and have only one specific view?

All comments are appreciated.

Thank you!!

Yeah of course, you don't see to many people being for Post-birth abortion. If you look at Blade_of_Truth, he's Pro-Choice, but anti-3rd term abortion.
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ford_prefect
Posts: 4,139
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5/21/2015 6:05:29 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/21/2015 6:36:49 AM, Nac wrote:
At 5/18/2015 6:30:20 PM, ford_prefect wrote:
I believe murder is morally wrong, but the government shouldn't ban murder. After all, murder bans probably don't decrease the number of murders. If we outlaw murder, people will just continue to murder illegally. And it will be underground black market murdering, so it will be less safe for all involved.

Also, I don't want to impose my moral code on other people. Just because I think murder is wrong doesn't mean I have the right to create laws that prevent other people from murdering. We have to respect the murderer's right to decide for themselves whether or not to murder.

/sarcasm

If you do not mind, please compare the reasons for each action.

I have a day old baby that I want to murder because I am not ready for the responsibility of raising a child. I am not financially stable, or emotionally ready, or I don't want to sacrifice my career or whatever. ME ME ME EVERYTHING IS ABOUT ME.
versus
I am pregnant with a fetus that I want to murder because I am not ready for the responsibility of raising a child. I am not financially stable, or emotionally ready, or I don't want to sacrifice my career or whatever. ME ME ME EVERYTHING IS ABOUT ME.

Would you say they come from the same core position?

Yes, I would.

Additionally, is murder not justified in certain conditions (e.g. when defending another person)? Isn't it murder if it is done with malicious intent, which could be present towards the individual (the person you are defending is someone you care about, so you then hate the aggressor)?

Murder is never justified. Killing in self defense is not murder. The only time you can consider abortion self defense is if a doctor truly believes carrying the pregnancy out to term will seriously threaten the life of the mother. In which case I'd say it should be legal, just like killing in self defense is legal. And to your last point, murder doesn't have to be committed with malicious intent.
xus00HAY
Posts: 1,390
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5/21/2015 9:13:36 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
"I would not say his rhetoric for opposing abortion is driven by molestation."

If all pregnancies were terminated by abortion, eventually all the little children would grow up, and not be replaced by new little children, therefore the mean old men would not be able to get hold of some kid who could not fight back, because such children would not exist.....but no....because of people like you, women will keep popping out the little ones, who will then be molested, and also experience whatever **** life has to offer them.
Nac
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5/22/2015 8:22:43 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/21/2015 6:05:29 PM, ford_prefect wrote:
At 5/21/2015 6:36:49 AM, Nac wrote:
At 5/18/2015 6:30:20 PM, ford_prefect wrote:
I believe murder is morally wrong, but the government shouldn't ban murder. After all, murder bans probably don't decrease the number of murders. If we outlaw murder, people will just continue to murder illegally. And it will be underground black market murdering, so it will be less safe for all involved.

Also, I don't want to impose my moral code on other people. Just because I think murder is wrong doesn't mean I have the right to create laws that prevent other people from murdering. We have to respect the murderer's right to decide for themselves whether or not to murder.

/sarcasm

If you do not mind, please compare the reasons for each action.

I have a day old baby that I want to murder because I am not ready for the responsibility of raising a child. I am not financially stable, or emotionally ready, or I don't want to sacrifice my career or whatever. ME ME ME EVERYTHING IS ABOUT ME.
versus
I am pregnant with a fetus that I want to murder because I am not ready for the responsibility of raising a child. I am not financially stable, or emotionally ready, or I don't want to sacrifice my career or whatever. ME ME ME EVERYTHING IS ABOUT ME.
A few notes, if I may:

1. I apologize for the lack of clarity in my initial response. My intention was to create a comparison between a more common idea of murder and abortion. The ideas you establish are both similar, but could you compare abortion to, say, a drive by shooting? Are the motives in these cases generally the same?
2. I would like to understand how the motives you established are inherently selfish. Do they not show a concern for the environment the child will be born into?
3. Is there any conflicting argument in the case of murder, akin to the autonomy defense of abortion?

Would you say they come from the same core position?

Yes, I would.

Additionally, is murder not justified in certain conditions (e.g. when defending another person)? Isn't it murder if it is done with malicious intent, which could be present towards the individual (the person you are defending is someone you care about, so you then hate the aggressor)?

Murder is never justified. Killing in self defense is not murder. The only time you can consider abortion self defense is if a doctor truly believes carrying the pregnancy out to term will seriously threaten the life of the mother. In which case I'd say it should be legal, just like killing in self defense is legal. And to your last point, murder doesn't have to be committed with malicious intent.
ford_prefect
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5/22/2015 4:22:47 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/22/2015 8:22:43 AM, Nac wrote:
A few notes, if I may:

1. I apologize for the lack of clarity in my initial response. My intention was to create a comparison between a more common idea of murder and abortion. The ideas you establish are both similar, but could you compare abortion to, say, a drive by shooting? Are the motives in these cases generally the same?

Obviously the motives behind an abortion and a drive by shooting are not the same. What is your point?

2. I would like to understand how the motives you established are inherently selfish. Do they not show a concern for the environment the child will be born into?

No, concern for the child is merely the excuse. Would you rather be poor, or dead? Would you rather have an immature parent, or be dead? The motives for abortion are selfish because what the woman is really saying is that her quality of life will decrease if she has to take care of a child. Children cost money and take time to raise.

3. Is there any conflicting argument in the case of murder, akin to the autonomy defense of abortion?

What? I don't understand this question. If you kill someone in self defense, it doesn't count as murder. But if you kill someone when your life isn't threatened, it's murder. Therefore, abortion in cases (when the mother's life is not in danger) is murder.
Dilara
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5/22/2015 7:14:41 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
You are morally pro life and legally pro choice. This means that you are morally opposed to abortion but believe that it should be legal. Most Americans oppose abortion. I believe that everyone deserves a chance at life and their right to at least have a chance at life overrides a woman's right to bodily autonomy for 9 months. 9 months of physical uncomfortableness is worth a lifetime of joy for the child. That child could become an important inventor and improve and save human lives or they could be a teacher, lawyer ect. Still I think that if the moms physical or mental health is in danger, though tragic an abortion is morally understandable.
R0b1Billion
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5/22/2015 8:23:01 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
I'd say I fit that general mold as well, I'm not much into anything being illegal, even if it's murder. But I'm morally against abortion, because I think a woman is making a mistake by doing it.
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Nac
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5/23/2015 9:21:20 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/22/2015 4:22:47 PM, ford_prefect wrote:
At 5/22/2015 8:22:43 AM, Nac wrote:
A few notes, if I may:

1. I apologize for the lack of clarity in my initial response. My intention was to create a comparison between a more common idea of murder and abortion. The ideas you establish are both similar, but could you compare abortion to, say, a drive by shooting? Are the motives in these cases generally the same?

Obviously the motives behind an abortion and a drive by shooting are not the same. What is your point?
This was to show the inherent differences between abortion and murder.

The legal definition of murder is as follows: "the killing of a human being by a sane person, with intent, malice aforethought (prior intention to kill the particular victim or anyone who gets in the way) and with no legal excuse or authority."

Malicious intent is not held in all cases of abortion, meaning they are not necessarily the same. I will further address this later.

Do you hold a different definition of the word murder? If so, please display it.

2. I would like to understand how the motives you established are inherently selfish. Do they not show a concern for the environment the child will be born into?

No, concern for the child is merely the excuse. Would you rather be poor, or dead? Would you rather have an immature parent, or be dead? The motives for abortion are selfish because what the woman is really saying is that her quality of life will decrease if she has to take care of a child. Children cost money and take time to raise.
1. Not all see an easy answer to the question you posited. It implies an objective set of values, which you should display. I would be delighted to listen, as you seem to be an intelligent individual.
2. Could you please explain how you know the true motives of these people? It seems to be baseless cynicism from my perspective, but I most assuredly could be wrong.
3. Is there any conflicting argument in the case of murder, akin to the autonomy defense of abortion?

What? I don't understand this question. If you kill someone in self defense, it doesn't count as murder. But if you kill someone when your life isn't threatened, it's murder. Therefore, abortion in cases (when the mother's life is not in danger) is murder.

This is where point 1 of my previous post comes into play. I wished to establish malicious intent, which is necessary in order to establish murder.

However, authority also raises the question, "Does a woman have the right to autonomy over her own body?" An affirmation of this proposition would dispel any comparison to murder, defeating the initial comparison.

All this is to say, the link between murder and abortion is significantly muddled. A clear line needs to be displayed to hold different attitudes towards these ideas as contradictory.

Thank you for your continuation of this dialogue. I see this exchange as quite fruitful.
Khaos_Mage
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5/23/2015 4:04:58 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/18/2015 11:58:40 AM, Nac wrote:
Often times, I am conflicted on my view of abortion. While I personally find it immoral to abort (barring cases of rape or life threatening situations, I do not believe it should be illegal. I believe that morality is subjective and, therefore, an individual choice should be made by the person involved in the predicament, regardless of my personal opinion. Women should not be robbed of the right to decide what they should do with their body, but I personally think that a certain course of action is wrong.

So I believe that they should choose and that it is immoral. Can these coexist? Or are they inconsistent? OR am I completely misunderstanding one side of the issue, and have only one specific view?

All comments are appreciated.

Thank you!!

That's my view on the subject, and I'm okay with that.
I see no reason why your legal view on a matter must reflect your personal view.
In fact, many of my political views go against my personal beliefs, but, I don't have to like you or your idea to value your freedom to do it, and pay the social consequences.
My work here is, finally, done.
ford_prefect
Posts: 4,139
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5/23/2015 8:20:48 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/23/2015 9:21:20 AM, Nac wrote:
At 5/22/2015 4:22:47 PM, ford_prefect wrote:
At 5/22/2015 8:22:43 AM, Nac wrote:
A few notes, if I may:

1. I apologize for the lack of clarity in my initial response. My intention was to create a comparison between a more common idea of murder and abortion. The ideas you establish are both similar, but could you compare abortion to, say, a drive by shooting? Are the motives in these cases generally the same?

Obviously the motives behind an abortion and a drive by shooting are not the same. What is your point?
This was to show the inherent differences between abortion and murder.

The legal definition of murder is as follows: "the killing of a human being by a sane person, with intent, malice aforethought (prior intention to kill the particular victim or anyone who gets in the way) and with no legal excuse or authority."

Malicious intent is not held in all cases of abortion, meaning they are not necessarily the same. I will further address this later.

Do you hold a different definition of the word murder? If so, please display it.

That is in fact the legal definition of the word murder. However, I think you are misinterpreting the phrase "malice aforethought." It doesn't actually mean malicious intent, in the sense that the person committing the murder is doing so maliciously. It simply means a premeditated intent to kill. (Source: http://nationalparalegal.edu...) Abortion definitely qualifies for this definition of murder, as it is performed with both intent to kill and premeditation.

2. I would like to understand how the motives you established are inherently selfish. Do they not show a concern for the environment the child will be born into?

No, concern for the child is merely the excuse. Would you rather be poor, or dead? Would you rather have an immature parent, or be dead? The motives for abortion are selfish because what the woman is really saying is that her quality of life will decrease if she has to take care of a child. Children cost money and take time to raise.
1. Not all see an easy answer to the question you posited. It implies an objective set of values, which you should display. I would be delighted to listen, as you seem to be an intelligent individual.
2. Could you please explain how you know the true motives of these people? It seems to be baseless cynicism from my perspective, but I most assuredly could be wrong.

I guess I cannot say with 100% certainty that these are the true motives behind abortions. Similarly, I can't say with 100% certainty that the people who commit tax evasion do so because they are greedy and want to keep their money for themselves. Maybe they are simply not paying their taxes because they are taking a moral stand against excessive taxation. However, I seriously doubt it.

3. Is there any conflicting argument in the case of murder, akin to the autonomy defense of abortion?

What? I don't understand this question. If you kill someone in self defense, it doesn't count as murder. But if you kill someone when your life isn't threatened, it's murder. Therefore, abortion in cases (when the mother's life is not in danger) is murder.

This is where point 1 of my previous post comes into play. I wished to establish malicious intent, which is necessary in order to establish murder.

However, authority also raises the question, "Does a woman have the right to autonomy over her own body?" An affirmation of this proposition would dispel any comparison to murder, defeating the initial comparison.

Of course a woman has the right to autonomy over her own body. She doesn't have the right to kill another person though, unless that person places her life in danger. So affirming that a woman has the right to autonomy over her own body doesn't dispel the fact that abortion (except in cases where the mother's life is in danger) is murder.

All this is to say, the link between murder and abortion is significantly muddled. A clear line needs to be displayed to hold different attitudes towards these ideas as contradictory.

It seems pretty clear to me.

Thank you for your continuation of this dialogue. I see this exchange as quite fruitful.

No problem.
Nac
Posts: 326
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5/24/2015 9:23:20 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/23/2015 8:20:48 PM, ford_prefect wrote:
At 5/23/2015 9:21:20 AM, Nac wrote:
At 5/22/2015 4:22:47 PM, ford_prefect wrote:
At 5/22/2015 8:22:43 AM, Nac wrote:
A few notes, if I may:

1. I apologize for the lack of clarity in my initial response. My intention was to create a comparison between a more common idea of murder and abortion. The ideas you establish are both similar, but could you compare abortion to, say, a drive by shooting? Are the motives in these cases generally the same?

Obviously the motives behind an abortion and a drive by shooting are not the same. What is your point?
This was to show the inherent differences between abortion and murder.

The legal definition of murder is as follows: "the killing of a human being by a sane person, with intent, malice aforethought (prior intention to kill the particular victim or anyone who gets in the way) and with no legal excuse or authority."

Malicious intent is not held in all cases of abortion, meaning they are not necessarily the same. I will further address this later.

Do you hold a different definition of the word murder? If so, please display it.

That is in fact the legal definition of the word murder. However, I think you are misinterpreting the phrase "malice aforethought." It doesn't actually mean malicious intent, in the sense that the person committing the murder is doing so maliciously. It simply means a premeditated intent to kill. (Source: http://nationalparalegal.edu...) Abortion definitely qualifies for this definition of murder, as it is performed with both intent to kill and premeditation.
I apologize for not providing a source. This is where the definition I utilized originated:
http://dictionary.law.com...

I must also apologize for misinterpreting malice aforethought. I did conflate the term with malicious intent in ignorance. My initial impression of the term was that it existed as a pure synonym for mal intent, since this is how I separated soldiers from murderers in the past (i.e. they had no intent of this nature, therefore they are not murderers.)
2. I would like to understand how the motives you established are inherently selfish. Do they not show a concern for the environment the child will be born into?

No, concern for the child is merely the excuse. Would you rather be poor, or dead? Would you rather have an immature parent, or be dead? The motives for abortion are selfish because what the woman is really saying is that her quality of life will decrease if she has to take care of a child. Children cost money and take time to raise.
1. Not all see an easy answer to the question you posited. It implies an objective set of values, which you should display. I would be delighted to listen, as you seem to be an intelligent individual.
2. Could you please explain how you know the true motives of these people? It seems to be baseless cynicism from my perspective, but I most assuredly could be wrong.

I guess I cannot say with 100% certainty that these are the true motives behind abortions. Similarly, I can't say with 100% certainty that the people who commit tax evasion do so because they are greedy and want to keep their money for themselves. Maybe they are simply not paying their taxes because they are taking a moral stand against excessive taxation. However, I seriously doubt it.
This inclination does seem reasonable, but it seems to be based on a hunch. This would bring into play your own personal moral standards, which, if it complies with deontology, would lead to a necessity to know their true motives.

3. Is there any conflicting argument in the case of murder, akin to the autonomy defense of abortion?

What? I don't understand this question. If you kill someone in self defense, it doesn't count as murder. But if you kill someone when your life isn't threatened, it's murder. Therefore, abortion in cases (when the mother's life is not in danger) is murder.

This is where point 1 of my previous post comes into play. I wished to establish malicious intent, which is necessary in order to establish murder.

However, authority also raises the question, "Does a woman have the right to autonomy over her own body?" An affirmation of this proposition would dispel any comparison to murder, defeating the initial comparison.

Of course a woman has the right to autonomy over her own body. She doesn't have the right to kill another person though, unless that person places her life in danger. So affirming that a woman has the right to autonomy over her own body doesn't dispel the fact that abortion (except in cases where the mother's life is in danger) is murder.
The fetus does exist within her, which would imply that she has authority in this case.

There exist numerous thought experiments which establish abortion as existing well within the rights of the woman. http://en.wikipedia.org...
All this is to say, the link between murder and abortion is significantly muddled. A clear line needs to be displayed to hold different attitudes towards these ideas as contradictory.

It seems pretty clear to me.

Thank you for your continuation of this dialogue. I see this exchange as quite fruitful.

No problem.
Fkkize
Posts: 2,149
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5/24/2015 12:18:38 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/22/2015 7:14:41 PM, Dilara wrote:
You are morally pro life and legally pro choice. This means that you are morally opposed to abortion but believe that it should be legal. Most Americans oppose abortion. I believe that everyone deserves a chance at life
This implies that you could somehow benefit a nonexistent person and you would have to encourage everyone to make babies 24/7.

and their right to at least have a chance at life overrides a woman's right to bodily autonomy for 9 months. 9 months of physical uncomfortableness is worth a lifetime of joy for the child. That child could become an important inventor and improve and save human lives or they could be a teacher, lawyer ect. Still I think that if the moms physical or mental health is in danger, though tragic an abortion is morally understandable.
: At 7/2/2016 3:05:07 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
:
: space contradicts logic
Dilara
Posts: 661
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5/24/2015 3:05:26 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/24/2015 12:18:38 PM, Fkkize wrote:
At 5/22/2015 7:14:41 PM, Dilara wrote:
You are morally pro life and legally pro choice. This means that you are morally opposed to abortion but believe that it should be legal. Most Americans oppose abortion. I believe that everyone deserves a chance at life
This implies that you could somehow benefit a nonexistent person and you would have to encourage everyone to make babies 24/7.

and their right to at least have a chance at life overrides a woman's right to bodily autonomy for 9 months. 9 months of physical uncomfortableness is worth a lifetime of joy for the child. That child could become an important inventor and improve and save human lives or they could be a teacher, lawyer ect. Still I think that if the moms physical or mental health is in danger, though tragic an abortion is morally understandable.

Not sure what you mean?