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Open and campus carry

thett3
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6/1/2015 11:07:55 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Texas recently considered two bills: one to legalize open-carry of firearms and one to legalize on campus concealed carry of firearms. The first has already been signed into law, the second is headed to the governor.

I'm fine with open carry. Our law prohibiting open carry was a reconstruction era law designed to emasculate the populace. I'd never do it because I'm not a tool, but if someone wants to open carry where they would be able to concealed carry anyway I don't really see a difference.

But campus carry makes me really uncomfortable...I don't even know how to articulate it it just seems on it's face a really, really bad idea. Does anyone have more coherent thoughts?
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Greyparrot
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6/1/2015 11:21:26 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/1/2015 11:07:55 AM, thett3 wrote:
Texas recently considered two bills: one to legalize open-carry of firearms and one to legalize on campus concealed carry of firearms. The first has already been signed into law, the second is headed to the governor.

I'm fine with open carry. Our law prohibiting open carry was a reconstruction era law designed to emasculate the populace. I'd never do it because I'm not a tool, but if someone wants to open carry where they would be able to concealed carry anyway I don't really see a difference.

But campus carry makes me really uncomfortable...I don't even know how to articulate it it just seems on it's face a really, really bad idea. Does anyone have more coherent thoughts?

People who have something to substantial to lose are better stewards of firearms.

Have you seen the average college student?
16kadams
Posts: 10,497
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6/1/2015 12:29:21 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/1/2015 11:07:55 AM, thett3 wrote:
Texas recently considered two bills: one to legalize open-carry of firearms and one to legalize on campus concealed carry of firearms. The first has already been signed into law, the second is headed to the governor.

I'm fine with open carry. Our law prohibiting open carry was a reconstruction era law designed to emasculate the populace. I'd never do it because I'm not a tool, but if someone wants to open carry where they would be able to concealed carry anyway I don't really see a difference.

But campus carry makes me really uncomfortable...I don't even know how to articulate it it just seems on it's face a really, really bad idea. Does anyone have more coherent thoughts?

I support it. Concealed carry holders are the most law abiding group in America.

The open carry vs concealed carry is a good point, but I don't see what you are getting at. You have to go through training, background checks, and more before you can get a concealed carry permit. Open carry is less regulated because if you know who is armed, it is easier to control them should the need arise. Many with open carry want to do so but avoid regulation. Or they simply want to let people know they are armed.

Let's look at some Texas CCW permit requirements. First, training: "An original (first-time) CHL applicant must complete four to six hours of classroom training, pass a written examination and pass a proficiency demonstration (shooting). ... There are four (4) required topics: Use of Force, Non-Violent Dispute Resolution, Handgun Use, and Safe and Proper Storage of Handguns and Ammunition."

You cannot get a permit if you are a criminal. This includes something as minor as DWI (I guess it is a big crime, but you know what I mean): "DWI is classified as at least a Class B misdemeanor, and you are ineligible for a license for five years after a conviction for a Class A or Class B misdemeanor."

You may be worried because 21 year olds like to get drunk. "Texas Penal Code "46.035 states it is unlawful for an individual who is intoxicated to carry a concealed handgun." And I guarantee that, at least on a college campus, there will be people monitoring and enforcing that rule.

http://dps.texas.gov...

I think something like 71 college campuses allow concealed carry on their campus. And none, yes, NONE, of these schools have experienced some crazy shootout or drunken bar fight you are worried about. Plus, gun free zones weren't really a big thing until the early 1990s, so those students carried a lot. We don't really hear about massive violence on colleges back then. Also remember faculty will be allowed to carry too, not just your fraternity friends.

So, are CCW permit holders criminals? I am going to use Texas statistics because, well, we are talking about Texas. In 2006, there were 258,162 active permit holders. Only 140 of those were convicted of a misdemeanor or a felony, or 0.05%. That is 1/7th of the conviction rate of the general population, and convictions for permit holders are usually less extreme than those for the general populace. 33 of those crimes were simply because they carried their firearm without a permit on them or onto a gun free zone. If you measure it over multiple years (2002 - 2005), the average rate of conviction is 0.04%. So the rate is always extremely low. Of course, 250,000 people is not a large sample. How about somewhere like Florida? In 2008 they had 1,439,466 people armed with permits. Only 166 had their permits revoked for any reason, and overwhelmingly the reason for revocation was accidentally carrying it into unauthorized areas. The rate is only 0.01%. Criminal group? Oh, maybe I am focusing too much on red leaning states. Let's look at the left leaning state of NH. They had 29,000 permits in 2007, and a revocation rate of 0.007-0.017% each year. The NH State Police said that none of the revocations in NH were "for murder or other serious crimes." Maybe Pennsylvania? 668,000 permits in 2007, but in 2007 they had a high revocation rate of 0.345%. Gasp! In 2003 - 2005, however, the rate was only 0.23%. And the revocation rate is declining over time. Utah? 134,000 permits, only 12 revoked. 0.009% revocation rate. Of those revoked, "None of those involved amy use of a gun." (Lott 2010, More Guns, Less Crime, 3rd edition, U Chicago Press).

So bruh, chill out. They are not violent. Florida, which has the most permit holders, has no crime among that group. Texas also ranks pretty well. Plus, you have to weigh this: a school shooting being stopped by guns; an armed girl preventing a rape (which would probably happen a lot); rapes on campus being deterred; crime around the area being deterred; and how polite kids will be to their teachers now. :P But dude, I totally support it. CCW laws can cause crime, but they also can deter it. Most evidence suggests either no effect or decreasing crime. You have nothing to fear. And, plus, I think girls being able to fight back against men when being raped is a good thing. Girls are at a disadvantage--arming them evens the playing field. I think reducing the rape rate on campus outweighs pretty much everything. Oh, and the fact that 71 campuses already have no problem.
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"A trend is a trend, but the question is, will it bend? Will it alter its course through some unforeseen force and come to a premature end?" -- Alec Cairncross
ben2974
Posts: 767
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6/1/2015 2:50:55 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/1/2015 12:29:21 PM, 16kadams wrote:
At 6/1/2015 11:07:55 AM, thett3 wrote:
Texas recently considered two bills: one to legalize open-carry of firearms and one to legalize on campus concealed carry of firearms. The first has already been signed into law, the second is headed to the governor.

I'm fine with open carry. Our law prohibiting open carry was a reconstruction era law designed to emasculate the populace. I'd never do it because I'm not a tool, but if someone wants to open carry where they would be able to concealed carry anyway I don't really see a difference.

But campus carry makes me really uncomfortable...I don't even know how to articulate it it just seems on it's face a really, really bad idea. Does anyone have more coherent thoughts?

I support it. Concealed carry holders are the most law abiding group in America.

The open carry vs concealed carry is a good point, but I don't see what you are getting at. You have to go through training, background checks, and more before you can get a concealed carry permit. Open carry is less regulated because if you know who is armed, it is easier to control them should the need arise. Many with open carry want to do so but avoid regulation. Or they simply want to let people know they are armed.

Let's look at some Texas CCW permit requirements. First, training: "An original (first-time) CHL applicant must complete four to six hours of classroom training, pass a written examination and pass a proficiency demonstration (shooting). ... There are four (4) required topics: Use of Force, Non-Violent Dispute Resolution, Handgun Use, and Safe and Proper Storage of Handguns and Ammunition."

You cannot get a permit if you are a criminal. This includes something as minor as DWI (I guess it is a big crime, but you know what I mean): "DWI is classified as at least a Class B misdemeanor, and you are ineligible for a license for five years after a conviction for a Class A or Class B misdemeanor."

You may be worried because 21 year olds like to get drunk. "Texas Penal Code "46.035 states it is unlawful for an individual who is intoxicated to carry a concealed handgun." And I guarantee that, at least on a college campus, there will be people monitoring and enforcing that rule.

http://dps.texas.gov...

I think something like 71 college campuses allow concealed carry on their campus. And none, yes, NONE, of these schools have experienced some crazy shootout or drunken bar fight you are worried about. Plus, gun free zones weren't really a big thing until the early 1990s, so those students carried a lot. We don't really hear about massive violence on colleges back then. Also remember faculty will be allowed to carry too, not just your fraternity friends.

So, are CCW permit holders criminals? I am going to use Texas statistics because, well, we are talking about Texas. In 2006, there were 258,162 active permit holders. Only 140 of those were convicted of a misdemeanor or a felony, or 0.05%. That is 1/7th of the conviction rate of the general population, and convictions for permit holders are usually less extreme than those for the general populace. 33 of those crimes were simply because they carried their firearm without a permit on them or onto a gun free zone. If you measure it over multiple years (2002 - 2005), the average rate of conviction is 0.04%. So the rate is always extremely low. Of course, 250,000 people is not a large sample. How about somewhere like Florida? In 2008 they had 1,439,466 people armed with permits. Only 166 had their permits revoked for any reason, and overwhelmingly the reason for revocation was accidentally carrying it into unauthorized areas. The rate is only 0.01%. Criminal group? Oh, maybe I am focusing too much on red leaning states. Let's look at the left leaning state of NH. They had 29,000 permits in 2007, and a revocation rate of 0.007-0.017% each year. The NH State Police said that none of the revocations in NH were "for murder or other serious crimes." Maybe Pennsylvania? 668,000 permits in 2007, but in 2007 they had a high revocation rate of 0.345%. Gasp! In 2003 - 2005, however, the rate was only 0.23%. And the revocation rate is declining over time. Utah? 134,000 permits, only 12 revoked. 0.009% revocation rate. Of those revoked, "None of those involved amy use of a gun." (Lott 2010, More Guns, Less Crime, 3rd edition, U Chicago Press).

So bruh, chill out. They are not violent. Florida, which has the most permit holders, has no crime among that group. Texas also ranks pretty well. Plus, you have to weigh this: a school shooting being stopped by guns; an armed girl preventing a rape (which would probably happen a lot); rapes on campus being deterred; crime around the area being deterred; and how polite kids will be to their teachers now. :P But dude, I totally support it. CCW laws can cause crime, but they also can deter it. Most evidence suggests either no effect or decreasing crime. You have nothing to fear. And, plus, I think girls being able to fight back against men when being raped is a good thing. Girls are at a disadvantage--arming them evens the playing field. I think reducing the rape rate on campus outweighs pretty much everything. Oh, and the fact that 71 campuses already have no problem.

It's a shame Americans feel the need to carry these kinds of weapons with them at all times. Tells us a great deal about Americans' attitudes towards others, and the trust that we don't share. If there is any great indicator that gives us a glimpse into how Americans view and prejudge their peers, look no further than what's in their holsters.

I believe guns perpetuate the deep mistrust Americans hold against their own.
16kadams
Posts: 10,497
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6/1/2015 3:07:26 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/1/2015 2:50:55 PM, ben2974 wrote:
At 6/1/2015 12:29:21 PM, 16kadams wrote:
At 6/1/2015 11:07:55 AM, thett3 wrote:
Texas recently considered two bills: one to legalize open-carry of firearms and one to legalize on campus concealed carry of firearms. The first has already been signed into law, the second is headed to the governor.

I'm fine with open carry. Our law prohibiting open carry was a reconstruction era law designed to emasculate the populace. I'd never do it because I'm not a tool, but if someone wants to open carry where they would be able to concealed carry anyway I don't really see a difference.

But campus carry makes me really uncomfortable...I don't even know how to articulate it it just seems on it's face a really, really bad idea. Does anyone have more coherent thoughts?

I support it. Concealed carry holders are the most law abiding group in America.

The open carry vs concealed carry is a good point, but I don't see what you are getting at. You have to go through training, background checks, and more before you can get a concealed carry permit. Open carry is less regulated because if you know who is armed, it is easier to control them should the need arise. Many with open carry want to do so but avoid regulation. Or they simply want to let people know they are armed.

Let's look at some Texas CCW permit requirements. First, training: "An original (first-time) CHL applicant must complete four to six hours of classroom training, pass a written examination and pass a proficiency demonstration (shooting). ... There are four (4) required topics: Use of Force, Non-Violent Dispute Resolution, Handgun Use, and Safe and Proper Storage of Handguns and Ammunition."

You cannot get a permit if you are a criminal. This includes something as minor as DWI (I guess it is a big crime, but you know what I mean): "DWI is classified as at least a Class B misdemeanor, and you are ineligible for a license for five years after a conviction for a Class A or Class B misdemeanor."

You may be worried because 21 year olds like to get drunk. "Texas Penal Code "46.035 states it is unlawful for an individual who is intoxicated to carry a concealed handgun." And I guarantee that, at least on a college campus, there will be people monitoring and enforcing that rule.

http://dps.texas.gov...

I think something like 71 college campuses allow concealed carry on their campus. And none, yes, NONE, of these schools have experienced some crazy shootout or drunken bar fight you are worried about. Plus, gun free zones weren't really a big thing until the early 1990s, so those students carried a lot. We don't really hear about massive violence on colleges back then. Also remember faculty will be allowed to carry too, not just your fraternity friends.

So, are CCW permit holders criminals? I am going to use Texas statistics because, well, we are talking about Texas. In 2006, there were 258,162 active permit holders. Only 140 of those were convicted of a misdemeanor or a felony, or 0.05%. That is 1/7th of the conviction rate of the general population, and convictions for permit holders are usually less extreme than those for the general populace. 33 of those crimes were simply because they carried their firearm without a permit on them or onto a gun free zone. If you measure it over multiple years (2002 - 2005), the average rate of conviction is 0.04%. So the rate is always extremely low. Of course, 250,000 people is not a large sample. How about somewhere like Florida? In 2008 they had 1,439,466 people armed with permits. Only 166 had their permits revoked for any reason, and overwhelmingly the reason for revocation was accidentally carrying it into unauthorized areas. The rate is only 0.01%. Criminal group? Oh, maybe I am focusing too much on red leaning states. Let's look at the left leaning state of NH. They had 29,000 permits in 2007, and a revocation rate of 0.007-0.017% each year. The NH State Police said that none of the revocations in NH were "for murder or other serious crimes." Maybe Pennsylvania? 668,000 permits in 2007, but in 2007 they had a high revocation rate of 0.345%. Gasp! In 2003 - 2005, however, the rate was only 0.23%. And the revocation rate is declining over time. Utah? 134,000 permits, only 12 revoked. 0.009% revocation rate. Of those revoked, "None of those involved amy use of a gun." (Lott 2010, More Guns, Less Crime, 3rd edition, U Chicago Press).

So bruh, chill out. They are not violent. Florida, which has the most permit holders, has no crime among that group. Texas also ranks pretty well. Plus, you have to weigh this: a school shooting being stopped by guns; an armed girl preventing a rape (which would probably happen a lot); rapes on campus being deterred; crime around the area being deterred; and how polite kids will be to their teachers now. :P But dude, I totally support it. CCW laws can cause crime, but they also can deter it. Most evidence suggests either no effect or decreasing crime. You have nothing to fear. And, plus, I think girls being able to fight back against men when being raped is a good thing. Girls are at a disadvantage--arming them evens the playing field. I think reducing the rape rate on campus outweighs pretty much everything. Oh, and the fact that 71 campuses already have no problem.

It's a shame Americans feel the need to carry these kinds of weapons with them at all times. Tells us a great deal about Americans' attitudes towards others, and the trust that we don't share. If there is any great indicator that gives us a glimpse into how Americans view and prejudge their peers, look no further than what's in their holsters.

I believe guns perpetuate the deep mistrust Americans hold against their own.

So... an emotional appeal versus my evidence. Cool. I offered evidence that these type of laws decrease the crime rate, and you oppose them because you think that it makes us hate each other. There is actually no proof that owning a gun makes you "paranoid", but a larger percent of people who have a "deep mistrust" carry a gun than those who have no distrust. But you are confusing causation with correlation. People who don't trust other people carry guns; guns don't cause people to not trust each other. And as long as they aren't using their firearms to take away other peoples' rights, there is no reason to restrict their right to bear arms.
https://www.youtube.com...
https://rekonomics.wordpress.com...
"A trend is a trend, but the question is, will it bend? Will it alter its course through some unforeseen force and come to a premature end?" -- Alec Cairncross
ben2974
Posts: 767
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6/1/2015 3:24:14 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/1/2015 3:07:26 PM, 16kadams wrote:
At 6/1/2015 2:50:55 PM, ben2974 wrote:
At 6/1/2015 12:29:21 PM, 16kadams wrote:
At 6/1/2015 11:07:55 AM, thett3 wrote:
Texas recently considered two bills: one to legalize open-carry of firearms and one to legalize on campus concealed carry of firearms. The first has already been signed into law, the second is headed to the governor.

I'm fine with open carry. Our law prohibiting open carry was a reconstruction era law designed to emasculate the populace. I'd never do it because I'm not a tool, but if someone wants to open carry where they would be able to concealed carry anyway I don't really see a difference.

But campus carry makes me really uncomfortable...I don't even know how to articulate it it just seems on it's face a really, really bad idea. Does anyone have more coherent thoughts?

I support it. Concealed carry holders are the most law abiding group in America.

The open carry vs concealed carry is a good point, but I don't see what you are getting at. You have to go through training, background checks, and more before you can get a concealed carry permit. Open carry is less regulated because if you know who is armed, it is easier to control them should the need arise. Many with open carry want to do so but avoid regulation. Or they simply want to let people know they are armed.

Let's look at some Texas CCW permit requirements. First, training: "An original (first-time) CHL applicant must complete four to six hours of classroom training, pass a written examination and pass a proficiency demonstration (shooting). ... There are four (4) required topics: Use of Force, Non-Violent Dispute Resolution, Handgun Use, and Safe and Proper Storage of Handguns and Ammunition."

You cannot get a permit if you are a criminal. This includes something as minor as DWI (I guess it is a big crime, but you know what I mean): "DWI is classified as at least a Class B misdemeanor, and you are ineligible for a license for five years after a conviction for a Class A or Class B misdemeanor."

You may be worried because 21 year olds like to get drunk. "Texas Penal Code "46.035 states it is unlawful for an individual who is intoxicated to carry a concealed handgun." And I guarantee that, at least on a college campus, there will be people monitoring and enforcing that rule.

http://dps.texas.gov...

I think something like 71 college campuses allow concealed carry on their campus. And none, yes, NONE, of these schools have experienced some crazy shootout or drunken bar fight you are worried about. Plus, gun free zones weren't really a big thing until the early 1990s, so those students carried a lot. We don't really hear about massive violence on colleges back then. Also remember faculty will be allowed to carry too, not just your fraternity friends.

So, are CCW permit holders criminals? I am going to use Texas statistics because, well, we are talking about Texas. In 2006, there were 258,162 active permit holders. Only 140 of those were convicted of a misdemeanor or a felony, or 0.05%. That is 1/7th of the conviction rate of the general population, and convictions for permit holders are usually less extreme than those for the general populace. 33 of those crimes were simply because they carried their firearm without a permit on them or onto a gun free zone. If you measure it over multiple years (2002 - 2005), the average rate of conviction is 0.04%. So the rate is always extremely low. Of course, 250,000 people is not a large sample. How about somewhere like Florida? In 2008 they had 1,439,466 people armed with permits. Only 166 had their permits revoked for any reason, and overwhelmingly the reason for revocation was accidentally carrying it into unauthorized areas. The rate is only 0.01%. Criminal group? Oh, maybe I am focusing too much on red leaning states. Let's look at the left leaning state of NH. They had 29,000 permits in 2007, and a revocation rate of 0.007-0.017% each year. The NH State Police said that none of the revocations in NH were "for murder or other serious crimes." Maybe Pennsylvania? 668,000 permits in 2007, but in 2007 they had a high revocation rate of 0.345%. Gasp! In 2003 - 2005, however, the rate was only 0.23%. And the revocation rate is declining over time. Utah? 134,000 permits, only 12 revoked. 0.009% revocation rate. Of those revoked, "None of those involved amy use of a gun." (Lott 2010, More Guns, Less Crime, 3rd edition, U Chicago Press).

So bruh, chill out. They are not violent. Florida, which has the most permit holders, has no crime among that group. Texas also ranks pretty well. Plus, you have to weigh this: a school shooting being stopped by guns; an armed girl preventing a rape (which would probably happen a lot); rapes on campus being deterred; crime around the area being deterred; and how polite kids will be to their teachers now. :P But dude, I totally support it. CCW laws can cause crime, but they also can deter it. Most evidence suggests either no effect or decreasing crime. You have nothing to fear. And, plus, I think girls being able to fight back against men when being raped is a good thing. Girls are at a disadvantage--arming them evens the playing field. I think reducing the rape rate on campus outweighs pretty much everything. Oh, and the fact that 71 campuses already have no problem.

It's a shame Americans feel the need to carry these kinds of weapons with them at all times. Tells us a great deal about Americans' attitudes towards others, and the trust that we don't share. If there is any great indicator that gives us a glimpse into how Americans view and prejudge their peers, look no further than what's in their holsters.

I believe guns perpetuate the deep mistrust Americans hold against their own.

So... an emotional appeal versus my evidence. Cool. I offered evidence that these type of laws decrease the crime rate, and you oppose them because you think that it makes us hate each other. There is actually no proof that owning a gun makes you "paranoid", but a larger percent of people who have a "deep mistrust" carry a gun than those who have no distrust. But you are confusing causation with correlation. People who don't trust other people carry guns; guns don't cause people to not trust each other. And as long as they aren't using their firearms to take away other peoples' rights, there is no reason to restrict their right to bear arms.

I should have added that I'm not against guns all together. I think guns should be treated like cars, more-or-less (with more barriers for gun use ofc). I may not like the idea of guns, but I won't stop someone from owning one. My comments in my previous post are not a direct attack against your arguments; rather, they were a response to the reality of American gun culture that was plainly echoing from your long post in support of these various gun laws.

Also, I did say that guns perpetuate this mistrust. But I guess I used imprecise diction. I really meant that the problem is somewhat circulatory, in that guns play a role in shaping our relationships with strangers (fellow Americans). A fear of others brought us closer to guns, and the fear is reinforced and reborn by the gun.
Khaos_Mage
Posts: 23,214
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6/1/2015 3:47:10 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/1/2015 11:07:55 AM, thett3 wrote:
Texas recently considered two bills: one to legalize open-carry of firearms and one to legalize on campus concealed carry of firearms. The first has already been signed into law, the second is headed to the governor.

I'm fine with open carry. Our law prohibiting open carry was a reconstruction era law designed to emasculate the populace. I'd never do it because I'm not a tool, but if someone wants to open carry where they would be able to concealed carry anyway I don't really see a difference.

But campus carry makes me really uncomfortable...I don't even know how to articulate it it just seems on it's face a really, really bad idea. Does anyone have more coherent thoughts?

I never have coherent thoughts, if I did, I'd do more debates ;)
But, why would you have a problem on campus, if those individuals would otherwise be able to have a conceal carry on the street leading to the campus?
My work here is, finally, done.
Juris_Naturalis
Posts: 273
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6/2/2015 8:33:12 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/1/2015 3:24:14 PM, ben2974 wrote:
At 6/1/2015 3:07:26 PM, 16kadams wrote:
At 6/1/2015 2:50:55 PM, ben2974 wrote:
At 6/1/2015 12:29:21 PM, 16kadams wrote:
At 6/1/2015 11:07:55 AM, thett3 wrote:
Texas recently considered two bills: one to legalize open-carry of firearms and one to legalize on campus concealed carry of firearms. The first has already been signed into law, the second is headed to the governor.

I'm fine with open carry. Our law prohibiting open carry was a reconstruction era law designed to emasculate the populace. I'd never do it because I'm not a tool, but if someone wants to open carry where they would be able to concealed carry anyway I don't really see a difference.

But campus carry makes me really uncomfortable...I don't even know how to articulate it it just seems on it's face a really, really bad idea. Does anyone have more coherent thoughts?

I support it. Concealed carry holders are the most law abiding group in America.

The open carry vs concealed carry is a good point, but I don't see what you are getting at. You have to go through training, background checks, and more before you can get a concealed carry permit. Open carry is less regulated because if you know who is armed, it is easier to control them should the need arise. Many with open carry want to do so but avoid regulation. Or they simply want to let people know they are armed.

Let's look at some Texas CCW permit requirements. First, training: "An original (first-time) CHL applicant must complete four to six hours of classroom training, pass a written examination and pass a proficiency demonstration (shooting). ... There are four (4) required topics: Use of Force, Non-Violent Dispute Resolution, Handgun Use, and Safe and Proper Storage of Handguns and Ammunition."

You cannot get a permit if you are a criminal. This includes something as minor as DWI (I guess it is a big crime, but you know what I mean): "DWI is classified as at least a Class B misdemeanor, and you are ineligible for a license for five years after a conviction for a Class A or Class B misdemeanor."

You may be worried because 21 year olds like to get drunk. "Texas Penal Code "46.035 states it is unlawful for an individual who is intoxicated to carry a concealed handgun." And I guarantee that, at least on a college campus, there will be people monitoring and enforcing that rule.

http://dps.texas.gov...

I think something like 71 college campuses allow concealed carry on their campus. And none, yes, NONE, of these schools have experienced some crazy shootout or drunken bar fight you are worried about. Plus, gun free zones weren't really a big thing until the early 1990s, so those students carried a lot. We don't really hear about massive violence on colleges back then. Also remember faculty will be allowed to carry too, not just your fraternity friends.

So, are CCW permit holders criminals? I am going to use Texas statistics because, well, we are talking about Texas. In 2006, there were 258,162 active permit holders. Only 140 of those were convicted of a misdemeanor or a felony, or 0.05%. That is 1/7th of the conviction rate of the general population, and convictions for permit holders are usually less extreme than those for the general populace. 33 of those crimes were simply because they carried their firearm without a permit on them or onto a gun free zone. If you measure it over multiple years (2002 - 2005), the average rate of conviction is 0.04%. So the rate is always extremely low. Of course, 250,000 people is not a large sample. How about somewhere like Florida? In 2008 they had 1,439,466 people armed with permits. Only 166 had their permits revoked for any reason, and overwhelmingly the reason for revocation was accidentally carrying it into unauthorized areas. The rate is only 0.01%. Criminal group? Oh, maybe I am focusing too much on red leaning states. Let's look at the left leaning state of NH. They had 29,000 permits in 2007, and a revocation rate of 0.007-0.017% each year. The NH State Police said that none of the revocations in NH were "for murder or other serious crimes." Maybe Pennsylvania? 668,000 permits in 2007, but in 2007 they had a high revocation rate of 0.345%. Gasp! In 2003 - 2005, however, the rate was only 0.23%. And the revocation rate is declining over time. Utah? 134,000 permits, only 12 revoked. 0.009% revocation rate. Of those revoked, "None of those involved amy use of a gun." (Lott 2010, More Guns, Less Crime, 3rd edition, U Chicago Press).

So bruh, chill out. They are not violent. Florida, which has the most permit holders, has no crime among that group. Texas also ranks pretty well. Plus, you have to weigh this: a school shooting being stopped by guns; an armed girl preventing a rape (which would probably happen a lot); rapes on campus being deterred; crime around the area being deterred; and how polite kids will be to their teachers now. :P But dude, I totally support it. CCW laws can cause crime, but they also can deter it. Most evidence suggests either no effect or decreasing crime. You have nothing to fear. And, plus, I think girls being able to fight back against men when being raped is a good thing. Girls are at a disadvantage--arming them evens the playing field. I think reducing the rape rate on campus outweighs pretty much everything. Oh, and the fact that 71 campuses already have no problem.

It's a shame Americans feel the need to carry these kinds of weapons with them at all times. Tells us a great deal about Americans' attitudes towards others, and the trust that we don't share. If there is any great indicator that gives us a glimpse into how Americans view and prejudge their peers, look no further than what's in their holsters.

I believe guns perpetuate the deep mistrust Americans hold against their own.

So... an emotional appeal versus my evidence. Cool. I offered evidence that these type of laws decrease the crime rate, and you oppose them because you think that it makes us hate each other. There is actually no proof that owning a gun makes you "paranoid", but a larger percent of people who have a "deep mistrust" carry a gun than those who have no distrust. But you are confusing causation with correlation. People who don't trust other people carry guns; guns don't cause people to not trust each other. And as long as they aren't using their firearms to take away other peoples' rights, there is no reason to restrict their right to bear arms.

I should have added that I'm not against guns all together. I think guns should be treated like cars, more-or-less (with more barriers for gun use ofc). I may not like the idea of guns, but I won't stop someone from owning one. My comments in my previous post are not a direct attack against your arguments; rather, they were a response to the reality of American gun culture that was plainly echoing from your long post in support of these various gun laws.

Also, I did say that guns perpetuate this mistrust. But I guess I used imprecise diction. I really meant that the problem is somewhat circulatory, in that guns play a role in shaping our relationships with strangers (fellow Americans). A fear of others brought us closer to guns, and the fear is reinforced and reborn by the gun.

You're assuming everyone deserves to be trusted.
Juris_Naturalis
Posts: 273
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6/2/2015 8:35:59 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/1/2015 11:07:55 AM, thett3 wrote:

But campus carry makes me really uncomfortable...I don't even know how to articulate it it just seems on it's face a really, really bad idea. Does anyone have more coherent thoughts?

There's really nothing wrong with it because you wouldn't know who's doing it. Same as CC off-campus. It's actually a good idea given the number and variety of crimes that can happen on campus. But then again, I'm a lot more comfortable around firearms than most.
ben2974
Posts: 767
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6/2/2015 9:22:33 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/2/2015 8:33:12 AM, Juris_Naturalis wrote:

You're assuming everyone deserves to be trusted.

Not really. If anything, i'm assuming people don't have to react to mistrust with guns.
ben2974
Posts: 767
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6/2/2015 9:26:11 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
"Do all you have agreed to do, and do not encroach on others or their property." This I quoted from your profile page. Now I see where your positioning comes from. lol.