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US court invalidates 'born in Jerusalem' pass

Blade-of-Truth
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6/8/2015 2:52:12 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
http://www.aljazeera.com...

This article made me wonder about something - why is Israel the most important ally of America? The article makes that claim and for some reason it struck me.

Is it because of Russia? Is it because of the surrounding oil fields? Why exactly do we need them and what do we gain from the relationship?

**I'd like serious responses only, I'm genuinely interested in learning the answer to these questions.**
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Greyparrot
Posts: 14,314
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6/8/2015 3:05:04 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/8/2015 2:52:12 PM, Blade-of-Truth wrote:
http://www.aljazeera.com...

This article made me wonder about something - why is Israel the most important ally of America? The article makes that claim and for some reason it struck me.

Is it because of Russia? Is it because of the surrounding oil fields? Why exactly do we need them and what do we gain from the relationship?

**I'd like serious responses only, I'm genuinely interested in learning the answer to these questions.**

Cause every other ally hates us?
Fly
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6/8/2015 3:05:12 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
My textbook answer: because it is the only country in that unstable region with a style of government similar to that of the US.

My more cynical answer: in addition to the above, AIPAC-- the American Israeli Political Action Committee, is one of the most powerful lobbies in the US.
"You don't have a right to be a jerk."
--Religion Forum's hypocrite extraordinaire serving up lulz
Greyparrot
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6/8/2015 3:16:41 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Also, American voters like Israel cause its an underdog and less arab/brown, so it's political suicide to vote against Israel.

Israel is a political leverage tool for oil negotiations in the middle east.
kasmic
Posts: 1,302
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6/8/2015 4:53:14 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/8/2015 2:52:12 PM, Blade-of-Truth wrote:
http://www.aljazeera.com...

This article made me wonder about something - why is Israel the most important ally of America? The article makes that claim and for some reason it struck me.

Is it because of Russia? Is it because of the surrounding oil fields? Why exactly do we need them and what do we gain from the relationship?

**I'd like serious responses only, I'm genuinely interested in learning the answer to these questions.**

http://mearsheimer.uchicago.edu...

I wrote a paper about this a few years back, I will try to find it for you. But short answer is the Israeli lobby... that's why.
"Liberalism Defined" http://www.debate.org...
"The Social Contract" http://www.debate.org...
"Intro to IR An Open Discussion" http://www.debate.org...

Check out my website, the Sensible Soapbox http://www.sensiblesoapbox.com...
My latest article: http://www.sensiblesoapbox.com...
kasmic
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6/8/2015 4:55:57 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/8/2015 4:53:14 PM, kasmic wrote:
At 6/8/2015 2:52:12 PM, Blade-of-Truth wrote:
http://www.aljazeera.com...

This article made me wonder about something - why is Israel the most important ally of America? The article makes that claim and for some reason it struck me.

Is it because of Russia? Is it because of the surrounding oil fields? Why exactly do we need them and what do we gain from the relationship?

**I'd like serious responses only, I'm genuinely interested in learning the answer to these questions.**

http://mearsheimer.uchicago.edu...

I wrote a paper about this a few years back, I will try to find it for you. But short answer is the Israeli lobby... that's why.

Sorry to be clear... I am saying the reason Israel is treated as an important ally has more to do with the lobby than actual benefits... There are benefits of course. Why not be allies with the only semi/superpower in the middle east. However, that is a largely a result of our strong alliance and support not a reason for it.
"Liberalism Defined" http://www.debate.org...
"The Social Contract" http://www.debate.org...
"Intro to IR An Open Discussion" http://www.debate.org...

Check out my website, the Sensible Soapbox http://www.sensiblesoapbox.com...
My latest article: http://www.sensiblesoapbox.com...
Greyparrot
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6/8/2015 5:01:13 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/8/2015 4:55:57 PM, kasmic wrote:
At 6/8/2015 4:53:14 PM, kasmic wrote:
At 6/8/2015 2:52:12 PM, Blade-of-Truth wrote:
http://www.aljazeera.com...

This article made me wonder about something - why is Israel the most important ally of America? The article makes that claim and for some reason it struck me.

Is it because of Russia? Is it because of the surrounding oil fields? Why exactly do we need them and what do we gain from the relationship?

**I'd like serious responses only, I'm genuinely interested in learning the answer to these questions.**

http://mearsheimer.uchicago.edu...

I wrote a paper about this a few years back, I will try to find it for you. But short answer is the Israeli lobby... that's why.

Sorry to be clear... I am saying the reason Israel is treated as an important ally has more to do with the lobby than actual benefits... There are benefits of course. Why not be allies with the only semi/superpower in the middle east. However, that is a largely a result of our strong alliance and support not a reason for it.

The Israeli lobby doesn't always win, and it certainly doesn't explain the grassroots popularity of Israel in xenophobic America who usually hate outsiders as a matter of course. It's not like there are Jews on cereal boxes funded by lobbyists.
kasmic
Posts: 1,302
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6/8/2015 5:02:16 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/8/2015 5:01:13 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 6/8/2015 4:55:57 PM, kasmic wrote:
At 6/8/2015 4:53:14 PM, kasmic wrote:
At 6/8/2015 2:52:12 PM, Blade-of-Truth wrote:
http://www.aljazeera.com...

This article made me wonder about something - why is Israel the most important ally of America? The article makes that claim and for some reason it struck me.

Is it because of Russia? Is it because of the surrounding oil fields? Why exactly do we need them and what do we gain from the relationship?

**I'd like serious responses only, I'm genuinely interested in learning the answer to these questions.**

http://mearsheimer.uchicago.edu...

I wrote a paper about this a few years back, I will try to find it for you. But short answer is the Israeli lobby... that's why.

Sorry to be clear... I am saying the reason Israel is treated as an important ally has more to do with the lobby than actual benefits... There are benefits of course. Why not be allies with the only semi/superpower in the middle east. However, that is a largely a result of our strong alliance and support not a reason for it.

The Israeli lobby doesn't always win, and it certainly doesn't explain the grassroots popularity of Israel in xenophobic America who usually hate outsiders as a matter of course. It's not like there are Jews on cereal boxes funded by lobbyists.

"Other special interest groups have managed to skew U.S. foreign policy in directions they favored, but no lobby has managed to divert U.S. foreign policy as far from what the American national interest would otherwise suggest, while simultaneously convincing Americans that U.S. and Israeli interests are essentially identical.1"
"Liberalism Defined" http://www.debate.org...
"The Social Contract" http://www.debate.org...
"Intro to IR An Open Discussion" http://www.debate.org...

Check out my website, the Sensible Soapbox http://www.sensiblesoapbox.com...
My latest article: http://www.sensiblesoapbox.com...
kasmic
Posts: 1,302
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6/8/2015 5:05:45 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/8/2015 3:16:41 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
Also, American voters like Israel cause its an underdog and less arab/brown, so it's political suicide to vote against Israel.

Israel is a political leverage tool for oil negotiations in the middle east.

Israel is certainly not the underdog in the middle east... they may be portrayed that way, but they are by far the powerhouse of the middle east.
"Liberalism Defined" http://www.debate.org...
"The Social Contract" http://www.debate.org...
"Intro to IR An Open Discussion" http://www.debate.org...

Check out my website, the Sensible Soapbox http://www.sensiblesoapbox.com...
My latest article: http://www.sensiblesoapbox.com...
TN05
Posts: 4,492
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6/8/2015 5:09:55 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/8/2015 2:52:12 PM, Blade-of-Truth wrote:
http://www.aljazeera.com...

This article made me wonder about something - why is Israel the most important ally of America? The article makes that claim and for some reason it struck me.

They aren't the most important ally - I like them as much as anyone, but in terms of international cooperation (such as espionage and intelligence) our government works closest with the other Anglosphere countries of Australia, Canada, New Zealand, and the UK.

Now, in that region, they are certainly the biggest ally. Practically speaking we share the same goals, they are the most stables, they are closest to us culturally and politically, and they are the most trustworthy. Why wouldn't they be our closest ally there?

Is it because of Russia? Is it because of the surrounding oil fields? Why exactly do we need them and what do we gain from the relationship?

Israel needs us more than we need them... they are most valuable in that they are a bastion of stability and democracy in a sea of backwards tyranny. Working with them means we have to work less with the Saudis, Egypt, etc. Being on the Mediterranean, they are also a valuable partner in that regard. Israel could survive without us, but they would be weakened. And that's not great for us considering who would fill that void, given the only other remotely trustworthy country in the region is Jordan.

**I'd like serious responses only, I'm genuinely interested in learning the answer to these questions.**
Fly
Posts: 2,047
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6/8/2015 7:22:00 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/8/2015 5:01:13 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 6/8/2015 4:55:57 PM, kasmic wrote:
At 6/8/2015 4:53:14 PM, kasmic wrote:
At 6/8/2015 2:52:12 PM, Blade-of-Truth wrote:
http://www.aljazeera.com...

This article made me wonder about something - why is Israel the most important ally of America? The article makes that claim and for some reason it struck me.

Is it because of Russia? Is it because of the surrounding oil fields? Why exactly do we need them and what do we gain from the relationship?

**I'd like serious responses only, I'm genuinely interested in learning the answer to these questions.**

http://mearsheimer.uchicago.edu...

I wrote a paper about this a few years back, I will try to find it for you. But short answer is the Israeli lobby... that's why.

Sorry to be clear... I am saying the reason Israel is treated as an important ally has more to do with the lobby than actual benefits... There are benefits of course. Why not be allies with the only semi/superpower in the middle east. However, that is a largely a result of our strong alliance and support not a reason for it.

The Israeli lobby doesn't always win, and it certainly doesn't explain the grassroots popularity of Israel in xenophobic America who usually hate outsiders as a matter of course. It's not like there are Jews on cereal boxes funded by lobbyists.

In that instance, look at US Evangelicals and End Time/Book of Revelation prophecy theology...
"You don't have a right to be a jerk."
--Religion Forum's hypocrite extraordinaire serving up lulz
Greyparrot
Posts: 14,314
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6/8/2015 8:05:37 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/8/2015 7:22:00 PM, Fly wrote:
At 6/8/2015 5:01:13 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 6/8/2015 4:55:57 PM, kasmic wrote:
At 6/8/2015 4:53:14 PM, kasmic wrote:
At 6/8/2015 2:52:12 PM, Blade-of-Truth wrote:
http://www.aljazeera.com...

This article made me wonder about something - why is Israel the most important ally of America? The article makes that claim and for some reason it struck me.

Is it because of Russia? Is it because of the surrounding oil fields? Why exactly do we need them and what do we gain from the relationship?

**I'd like serious responses only, I'm genuinely interested in learning the answer to these questions.**

http://mearsheimer.uchicago.edu...

I wrote a paper about this a few years back, I will try to find it for you. But short answer is the Israeli lobby... that's why.

Sorry to be clear... I am saying the reason Israel is treated as an important ally has more to do with the lobby than actual benefits... There are benefits of course. Why not be allies with the only semi/superpower in the middle east. However, that is a largely a result of our strong alliance and support not a reason for it.

The Israeli lobby doesn't always win, and it certainly doesn't explain the grassroots popularity of Israel in xenophobic America who usually hate outsiders as a matter of course. It's not like there are Jews on cereal boxes funded by lobbyists.

In that instance, look at US Evangelicals and End Time/Book of Revelation prophecy theology...
Right, there just is not enough conspiracy theorists at all.
Greyparrot
Posts: 14,314
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6/8/2015 8:10:52 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/8/2015 5:02:16 PM, kasmic wrote:
At 6/8/2015 5:01:13 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 6/8/2015 4:55:57 PM, kasmic wrote:
At 6/8/2015 4:53:14 PM, kasmic wrote:
At 6/8/2015 2:52:12 PM, Blade-of-Truth wrote:
http://www.aljazeera.com...

This article made me wonder about something - why is Israel the most important ally of America? The article makes that claim and for some reason it struck me.

Is it because of Russia? Is it because of the surrounding oil fields? Why exactly do we need them and what do we gain from the relationship?

**I'd like serious responses only, I'm genuinely interested in learning the answer to these questions.**

http://mearsheimer.uchicago.edu...

I wrote a paper about this a few years back, I will try to find it for you. But short answer is the Israeli lobby... that's why.

Sorry to be clear... I am saying the reason Israel is treated as an important ally has more to do with the lobby than actual benefits... There are benefits of course. Why not be allies with the only semi/superpower in the middle east. However, that is a largely a result of our strong alliance and support not a reason for it.

The Israeli lobby doesn't always win, and it certainly doesn't explain the grassroots popularity of Israel in xenophobic America who usually hate outsiders as a matter of course. It's not like there are Jews on cereal boxes funded by lobbyists.

"Other special interest groups have managed to skew U.S. foreign policy in directions they favored, but no lobby has managed to divert U.S. foreign policy as far from what the American national interest would otherwise suggest, while simultaneously convincing Americans that U.S. and Israeli interests are essentially identical.1"

It's one thing to claim lobbyists influence foreign policy in opposition to public opinion. That happens all the time. That is the rule, not the exception. You have yet to explain how the Jews are such mindfreaks that they have zombiefied an entire nation. Sources for your claim please.
kasmic
Posts: 1,302
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6/8/2015 8:16:03 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/8/2015 8:10:52 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 6/8/2015 5:02:16 PM, kasmic wrote:
At 6/8/2015 5:01:13 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 6/8/2015 4:55:57 PM, kasmic wrote:
At 6/8/2015 4:53:14 PM, kasmic wrote:
At 6/8/2015 2:52:12 PM, Blade-of-Truth wrote:
http://www.aljazeera.com...

This article made me wonder about something - why is Israel the most important ally of America? The article makes that claim and for some reason it struck me.

Is it because of Russia? Is it because of the surrounding oil fields? Why exactly do we need them and what do we gain from the relationship?

**I'd like serious responses only, I'm genuinely interested in learning the answer to these questions.**

http://mearsheimer.uchicago.edu...

I wrote a paper about this a few years back, I will try to find it for you. But short answer is the Israeli lobby... that's why.

Sorry to be clear... I am saying the reason Israel is treated as an important ally has more to do with the lobby than actual benefits... There are benefits of course. Why not be allies with the only semi/superpower in the middle east. However, that is a largely a result of our strong alliance and support not a reason for it.

The Israeli lobby doesn't always win, and it certainly doesn't explain the grassroots popularity of Israel in xenophobic America who usually hate outsiders as a matter of course. It's not like there are Jews on cereal boxes funded by lobbyists.

"Other special interest groups have managed to skew U.S. foreign policy in directions they favored, but no lobby has managed to divert U.S. foreign policy as far from what the American national interest would otherwise suggest, while simultaneously convincing Americans that U.S. and Israeli interests are essentially identical.1"

It's one thing to claim lobbyists influence foreign policy in opposition to public opinion. That happens all the time. That is the rule, not the exception. You have yet to explain how the Jews are such mindfreaks that they have zombiefied an entire nation. Sources for your claim please.

I did... It's the second link in this thread.
"Liberalism Defined" http://www.debate.org...
"The Social Contract" http://www.debate.org...
"Intro to IR An Open Discussion" http://www.debate.org...

Check out my website, the Sensible Soapbox http://www.sensiblesoapbox.com...
My latest article: http://www.sensiblesoapbox.com...
Greyparrot
Posts: 14,314
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6/8/2015 8:18:44 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/8/2015 8:16:03 PM, kasmic wrote:

It's one thing to claim lobbyists influence foreign policy in opposition to public opinion. That happens all the time. That is the rule, not the exception. You have yet to explain how the Jews are such mindfreaks that they have zombiefied an entire nation. Sources for your claim please.

I did... It's the second link in this thread.

Israel is often portrayed as weak and besieged, a Jewish David surrounded by a
hostile Arab Goliath.""This image has been carefully nurtured by Israeli leaders
and sympathetic writers, but the opposite image is closer to the truth....

That's no source, that's conspiracy speculation. It's not in your paper, where is it?
kasmic
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6/8/2015 8:22:48 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/8/2015 8:18:44 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 6/8/2015 8:16:03 PM, kasmic wrote:

It's one thing to claim lobbyists influence foreign policy in opposition to public opinion. That happens all the time. That is the rule, not the exception. You have yet to explain how the Jews are such mindfreaks that they have zombiefied an entire nation. Sources for your claim please.

I did... It's the second link in this thread.

Israel is often portrayed as weak and besieged, a Jewish David surrounded by a
hostile Arab Goliath.""This image has been carefully nurtured by Israeli leaders
and sympathetic writers, but the opposite image is closer to the truth....

That's no source, that's conspiracy speculation. It's not in your paper, where is it?

Actually it's a very well sourced well accredited article written from respected academics from a college in Chicago. Not sure why you think it is conspiratorial.... Can you reference something from the article you think is unsourced and biased? The paper I wrote was largely a summary of this one here. I have been unable to find mine, I don't keep my college papers more than a year old.
"Liberalism Defined" http://www.debate.org...
"The Social Contract" http://www.debate.org...
"Intro to IR An Open Discussion" http://www.debate.org...

Check out my website, the Sensible Soapbox http://www.sensiblesoapbox.com...
My latest article: http://www.sensiblesoapbox.com...
Fly
Posts: 2,047
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6/8/2015 8:27:30 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/8/2015 8:05:37 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 6/8/2015 7:22:00 PM, Fly wrote:
At 6/8/2015 5:01:13 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 6/8/2015 4:55:57 PM, kasmic wrote:
At 6/8/2015 4:53:14 PM, kasmic wrote:
At 6/8/2015 2:52:12 PM, Blade-of-Truth wrote:
http://www.aljazeera.com...

This article made me wonder about something - why is Israel the most important ally of America? The article makes that claim and for some reason it struck me.

Is it because of Russia? Is it because of the surrounding oil fields? Why exactly do we need them and what do we gain from the relationship?

**I'd like serious responses only, I'm genuinely interested in learning the answer to these questions.**

http://mearsheimer.uchicago.edu...

I wrote a paper about this a few years back, I will try to find it for you. But short answer is the Israeli lobby... that's why.

Sorry to be clear... I am saying the reason Israel is treated as an important ally has more to do with the lobby than actual benefits... There are benefits of course. Why not be allies with the only semi/superpower in the middle east. However, that is a largely a result of our strong alliance and support not a reason for it.

The Israeli lobby doesn't always win, and it certainly doesn't explain the grassroots popularity of Israel in xenophobic America who usually hate outsiders as a matter of course. It's not like there are Jews on cereal boxes funded by lobbyists.

In that instance, look at US Evangelicals and End Time/Book of Revelation prophecy theology...
Right, there just is not enough conspiracy theorists at all.

I'm not sure what you mean. Do you even know what I'm talking about? It has to do with the place of Israel in the Second Coming of Christ and nothing to do with conspiracy theory as you snidely suggest... heck, it doesn't even have anything to do with Judaism...
"You don't have a right to be a jerk."
--Religion Forum's hypocrite extraordinaire serving up lulz
Greyparrot
Posts: 14,314
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6/8/2015 8:31:01 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/8/2015 8:22:48 PM, kasmic wrote:
At 6/8/2015 8:18:44 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 6/8/2015 8:16:03 PM, kasmic wrote:

It's one thing to claim lobbyists influence foreign policy in opposition to public opinion. That happens all the time. That is the rule, not the exception. You have yet to explain how the Jews are such mindfreaks that they have zombiefied an entire nation. Sources for your claim please.

I did... It's the second link in this thread.

Israel is often portrayed as weak and besieged, a Jewish David surrounded by a
hostile Arab Goliath.""This image has been carefully nurtured by Israeli leaders
and sympathetic writers, but the opposite image is closer to the truth....

That's no source, that's conspiracy speculation. It's not in your paper, where is it?

Actually it's a very well sourced well accredited article written from respected academics from a college in Chicago. Not sure why you think it is conspiratorial.... Can you reference something from the article you think is unsourced and biased? The paper I wrote was largely a summary of this one here. I have been unable to find mine, I don't keep my college papers more than a year old.

Go look at it. There is zero source for that claim. It just casually moves from this claim into war facts with zero sources for that claim and lots of sources for war facts..... as if American people actually remember anything about those wars, and that it could be concluded by a reasonable person that this is how the Jews manipulate the American voter? You need to be a tad more critical of your academia.
kasmic
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6/8/2015 8:36:36 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/8/2015 8:31:01 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 6/8/2015 8:22:48 PM, kasmic wrote:
At 6/8/2015 8:18:44 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 6/8/2015 8:16:03 PM, kasmic wrote:

It's one thing to claim lobbyists influence foreign policy in opposition to public opinion. That happens all the time. That is the rule, not the exception. You have yet to explain how the Jews are such mindfreaks that they have zombiefied an entire nation. Sources for your claim please.

I did... It's the second link in this thread.

Israel is often portrayed as weak and besieged, a Jewish David surrounded by a
hostile Arab Goliath.""This image has been carefully nurtured by Israeli leaders
and sympathetic writers, but the opposite image is closer to the truth....

That's no source, that's conspiracy speculation. It's not in your paper, where is it?

Actually it's a very well sourced well accredited article written from respected academics from a college in Chicago. Not sure why you think it is conspiratorial.... Can you reference something from the article you think is unsourced and biased? The paper I wrote was largely a summary of this one here. I have been unable to find mine, I don't keep my college papers more than a year old.

Go look at it. There is zero source for that claim. It just casually moves from this claim into war facts with zero sources for that claim and lots of sources for war facts..... as if American people actually remember anything about those wars, and that it could be concluded by a reasonable person that this is how the Jews manipulate the American voter? You need to be a tad more critical of your academia.

So your saying that the one nuclear power in the region with the most advanced army in the region and the most money, is unreasonable construed as Goliath? Right after the analogy they do provide many relevant stats that indicate that Israel is certainly not the underdog in the area.
"Liberalism Defined" http://www.debate.org...
"The Social Contract" http://www.debate.org...
"Intro to IR An Open Discussion" http://www.debate.org...

Check out my website, the Sensible Soapbox http://www.sensiblesoapbox.com...
My latest article: http://www.sensiblesoapbox.com...
kasmic
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6/8/2015 8:39:46 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/8/2015 8:31:01 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 6/8/2015 8:22:48 PM, kasmic wrote:
At 6/8/2015 8:18:44 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 6/8/2015 8:16:03 PM, kasmic wrote:

It's one thing to claim lobbyists influence foreign policy in opposition to public opinion. That happens all the time. That is the rule, not the exception. You have yet to explain how the Jews are such mindfreaks that they have zombiefied an entire nation. Sources for your claim please.

I did... It's the second link in this thread.

Israel is often portrayed as weak and besieged, a Jewish David surrounded by a
hostile Arab Goliath.""This image has been carefully nurtured by Israeli leaders
and sympathetic writers, but the opposite image is closer to the truth....

That's no source, that's conspiracy speculation. It's not in your paper, where is it?

Actually it's a very well sourced well accredited article written from respected academics from a college in Chicago. Not sure why you think it is conspiratorial.... Can you reference something from the article you think is unsourced and biased? The paper I wrote was largely a summary of this one here. I have been unable to find mine, I don't keep my college papers more than a year old.

Go look at it. There is zero source for that claim. It just casually moves from this claim into war facts with zero sources for that claim and lots of sources for war facts..... as if American people actually remember anything about those wars, and that it could be concluded by a reasonable person that this is how the Jews manipulate the American voter? You need to be a tad more critical of your academia.

The sources for the war facts are validating the claim. The David and Goliath narrative is commonly used, they demonstrate convincingly that the converse is closer to the truth citing stats on war and capability.
"Liberalism Defined" http://www.debate.org...
"The Social Contract" http://www.debate.org...
"Intro to IR An Open Discussion" http://www.debate.org...

Check out my website, the Sensible Soapbox http://www.sensiblesoapbox.com...
My latest article: http://www.sensiblesoapbox.com...
Skepsikyma
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6/8/2015 8:48:57 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/8/2015 5:01:13 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 6/8/2015 4:55:57 PM, kasmic wrote:
At 6/8/2015 4:53:14 PM, kasmic wrote:
At 6/8/2015 2:52:12 PM, Blade-of-Truth wrote:
http://www.aljazeera.com...

This article made me wonder about something - why is Israel the most important ally of America? The article makes that claim and for some reason it struck me.

Is it because of Russia? Is it because of the surrounding oil fields? Why exactly do we need them and what do we gain from the relationship?

**I'd like serious responses only, I'm genuinely interested in learning the answer to these questions.**

http://mearsheimer.uchicago.edu...

I wrote a paper about this a few years back, I will try to find it for you. But short answer is the Israeli lobby... that's why.

Sorry to be clear... I am saying the reason Israel is treated as an important ally has more to do with the lobby than actual benefits... There are benefits of course. Why not be allies with the only semi/superpower in the middle east. However, that is a largely a result of our strong alliance and support not a reason for it.

The Israeli lobby doesn't always win, and it certainly doesn't explain the grassroots popularity of Israel in xenophobic America who usually hate outsiders as a matter of course. It's not like there are Jews on cereal boxes funded by lobbyists.

Sadly enough, a lot of the motivation is genuinely eschatological, which speaks volumes to the level of intelligence of our general populace,
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
slo1
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6/9/2015 8:04:02 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/8/2015 8:05:37 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 6/8/2015 7:22:00 PM, Fly wrote:
At 6/8/2015 5:01:13 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 6/8/2015 4:55:57 PM, kasmic wrote:
At 6/8/2015 4:53:14 PM, kasmic wrote:
At 6/8/2015 2:52:12 PM, Blade-of-Truth wrote:
http://www.aljazeera.com...

This article made me wonder about something - why is Israel the most important ally of America? The article makes that claim and for some reason it struck me.

Is it because of Russia? Is it because of the surrounding oil fields? Why exactly do we need them and what do we gain from the relationship?

**I'd like serious responses only, I'm genuinely interested in learning the answer to these questions.**

http://mearsheimer.uchicago.edu...

I wrote a paper about this a few years back, I will try to find it for you. But short answer is the Israeli lobby... that's why.

Sorry to be clear... I am saying the reason Israel is treated as an important ally has more to do with the lobby than actual benefits... There are benefits of course. Why not be allies with the only semi/superpower in the middle east. However, that is a largely a result of our strong alliance and support not a reason for it.

The Israeli lobby doesn't always win, and it certainly doesn't explain the grassroots popularity of Israel in xenophobic America who usually hate outsiders as a matter of course. It's not like there are Jews on cereal boxes funded by lobbyists.

In that instance, look at US Evangelicals and End Time/Book of Revelation prophecy theology...
Right, there just is not enough conspiracy theorists at all.

Whaaaaaaaaat? That is like saying people who believe the earth is 10,000 years old or less is a conspiracy theory.

Fact
1. The bible has passage in it somewhere that any nation against Israel is cursed.
2. Fundamental Christians are fundamental because of their literal and ridged interpretation of the bible.

Senator and Presidential candidate Ted Cruz, saying, "I told the attendees that those who hate Israel also hate America," he said. "That those who hate Jews also hate Christians. And that anyone who hates Israel and the Jewish people is not following the teachings of Christ. These statements were met with angry boos.", does not come from a political leaning but rather a religious doctrine.

Read more: http://www.politico.com...

You are nuts if you think that groups such as The Friends of Israel which have significant influence and clout are not inserting their religious beliefs and influencing politicians. Right on its website is says:

The Friends of Israel is a worldwide Christian ministry communicating biblical truth about Israel and the Messiah, while fostering solidarity with the Jewish people.

This is in the lower right corner of the web page. Smack dab in the middle is an article about a members meeting with John Bolton an ex US ambassador to the UN.

Conspiracy my arse.
Greyparrot
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6/9/2015 9:35:11 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/9/2015 8:04:02 AM, slo1 wrote:

The Israeli lobby doesn't always win, and it certainly doesn't explain the grassroots popularity of Israel in xenophobic America who usually hate outsiders as a matter of course. It's not like there are Jews on cereal boxes funded by lobbyists.

In that instance, look at US Evangelicals and End Time/Book of Revelation prophecy theology...
Right, there just is not enough conspiracy theorists at all.

Whaaaaaaaaat? That is like saying people who believe the earth is 10,000 years old or less is a conspiracy theory.

Fact
1. The bible has passage in it somewhere that any nation against Israel is cursed.
2. Fundamental Christians are fundamental because of their literal and ridged interpretation of the bible.

Senator and Presidential candidate Ted Cruz, saying, "I told the attendees that those who hate Israel also hate America," he said. "That those who hate Jews also hate Christians. And that anyone who hates Israel and the Jewish people is not following the teachings of Christ. These statements were met with angry boos.", does not come from a political leaning but rather a religious doctrine.

Read more: http://www.politico.com...

You are nuts if you think that groups such as The Friends of Israel which have significant influence and clout are not inserting their religious beliefs and influencing politicians. Right on its website is says:

The Friends of Israel is a worldwide Christian ministry communicating biblical truth about Israel and the Messiah, while fostering solidarity with the Jewish people.

This is in the lower right corner of the web page. Smack dab in the middle is an article about a members meeting with John Bolton an ex US ambassador to the UN.

Conspiracy my arse.

You guys are so off the base here. It's no conspiracy that lobbyist buy politicians and sway policy decisions. It IS however a conspiracy to believe that AIPAC has any significant role to play in the swaying of PUBLIC OPINION. If you read that bad paper, the closest point the paper got to demonstrating that was a bunch of journalists with typical "he said, she said" quotes with absolutely zero linkage to AIPAC. It's also a conspiracy theory to believe AIPAC is the main driving force of of the End of the World Evangelicals.

Filters off please. I know it's easy to just say "that has got to be it!"
Greyparrot
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6/9/2015 9:56:37 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Like I said before, there is obviously no conspiracy to think AIPAC manipulated government policies, that is the rule not the exception. The academic paper clearly pointed out the obvious.

To say that AIPAC is out there indoctrinating the public, good lord! next you will be telling me who really shot Kennedy!

Now the public might say....well... people trust the government, and... well, if the government policymakers say we have to do this, then they must be right!

But is that really AIPAC's doing? Is that AIPAC's fault for having a stupid sheep populace that eventually supports government policy blindly?

That's a way larger problem than just Israel AIPAC influence on the government.
slo1
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6/9/2015 11:18:35 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/9/2015 9:35:11 AM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 6/9/2015 8:04:02 AM, slo1 wrote:

The Israeli lobby doesn't always win, and it certainly doesn't explain the grassroots popularity of Israel in xenophobic America who usually hate outsiders as a matter of course. It's not like there are Jews on cereal boxes funded by lobbyists.

In that instance, look at US Evangelicals and End Time/Book of Revelation prophecy theology...
Right, there just is not enough conspiracy theorists at all.

Whaaaaaaaaat? That is like saying people who believe the earth is 10,000 years old or less is a conspiracy theory.

Fact
1. The bible has passage in it somewhere that any nation against Israel is cursed.
2. Fundamental Christians are fundamental because of their literal and ridged interpretation of the bible.

Senator and Presidential candidate Ted Cruz, saying, "I told the attendees that those who hate Israel also hate America," he said. "That those who hate Jews also hate Christians. And that anyone who hates Israel and the Jewish people is not following the teachings of Christ. These statements were met with angry boos.", does not come from a political leaning but rather a religious doctrine.

Read more: http://www.politico.com...

You are nuts if you think that groups such as The Friends of Israel which have significant influence and clout are not inserting their religious beliefs and influencing politicians. Right on its website is says:

The Friends of Israel is a worldwide Christian ministry communicating biblical truth about Israel and the Messiah, while fostering solidarity with the Jewish people.

This is in the lower right corner of the web page. Smack dab in the middle is an article about a members meeting with John Bolton an ex US ambassador to the UN.

Conspiracy my arse.

You guys are so off the base here. It's no conspiracy that lobbyist buy politicians and sway policy decisions. It IS however a conspiracy to believe that AIPAC has any significant role to play in the swaying of PUBLIC OPINION. If you read that bad paper, the closest point the paper got to demonstrating that was a bunch of journalists with typical "he said, she said" quotes with absolutely zero linkage to AIPAC. It's also a conspiracy theory to believe AIPAC is the main driving force of of the End of the World Evangelicals.

Filters off please. I know it's easy to just say "that has got to be it!"

I don't understand why you are using the word "conspiracy". There are various groups that have powerful influence in the political world and the Israeli lobby is one of them.

It is so evident that American's attitudes towards Israel has been influenced by something from a cultural level. I imagine it has just as much to do with religious belief and overall dogma. I agree with the paper that we support Israel because they are a democracy has very little to do with it. It is nothing more than a statement much like the statements that held us back from normalizing relations with Cuba. Good on paper, but probably not much based in reality.

Dogma as a whole can not be dismissed. Look how long after the fall of the USSR that it took to begin normalizing relations with Cuba. There was no rational reason, although an entire list of seemingly rational reasons why not to starting with the evils of communism.

The US as a whole is irrational with Israel too.

I posted awhile back an article where the right was going after Christie for using the term "Occupied Territory" when he was vising Israel and took a helicopter tour over the West Bank. He is as pro Israel as it gets and used it as a noun for the location he was flying over.

It just shows the environment that people are subjected when even using specific words that were expressed in a benign statement. There is such propaganda by various groups who are trying control and tamper beliefs that they went after the implications that are associated with specific words such as "Occupied Territory".

You can look me in the eye and brush off those attempts to shame a public figure for using the words "occupied territory" and then say there is no drivers of culture, politics, and society at a whole to promote unquestioned support for Israel.

Those drivers exist and groups that promote unquestioned support of Israel do a hell of a job. Although, since the belief was set decades ago, they have an easier job sustaining the dogma versus trying to change aggregate culture.

Times are changing though. That unquestioned support is beginning to erode. It will continue when people start asking questions and be open to consider different view points because they are no longer bound by biblical commands.
Greyparrot
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6/9/2015 11:26:53 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/9/2015 11:18:35 AM, slo1 wrote:

It is so evident that American's attitudes towards Israel has been influenced by something from a cultural level. I imagine it has just as much to do with religious belief and overall dogma.

I agree with most of what you posted except for this point. Can you clarify/substantiate your opinion on this?

Can you explain exactly how AIPAC indoctrinates the public?
Greyparrot
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6/9/2015 11:50:09 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/8/2015 8:36:36 PM, kasmic wrote:
So your saying that the one nuclear power in the region with the most advanced army in the region and the most money, is unreasonable construed as Goliath? Right after the analogy they do provide many relevant stats that indicate that Israel is certainly not the underdog in the area.

There is absolutely no argument about that, but nowhere in the paper does it say how AIPAC is indoctrinating the american public on the opinions on Israel. You are knee-jerking and completely dismissing out of hand hundreds of different factors an average person absorbs when forming an opinion on Israel. To say AIPAC controls the public is a ridiculous claim, and obviously unsourced.

It's like the twin tower bombings never happened, or hundreds of video clips of Arab leaders saying "death to Israel" do not exist, or any of the other hundreds of social influences TOTALLY out of the scope and power of AIPAC.
slo1
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6/9/2015 12:00:06 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/9/2015 11:26:53 AM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 6/9/2015 11:18:35 AM, slo1 wrote:

It is so evident that American's attitudes towards Israel has been influenced by something from a cultural level. I imagine it has just as much to do with religious belief and overall dogma.

I agree with most of what you posted except for this point. Can you clarify/substantiate your opinion on this?

Can you explain exactly how AIPAC indoctrinates the public?

Indoctrinate is probably too strong of a word, but Ok.

1. From their web site: " Tens of thousands of pro-Israel Americans gather in Washington, D.C. for AIPAC's Policy Conference to help shape U.S. policy and strengthen the U.S.-Israel relationship."

2. The publish opinion pieces such as the one where they advocate suspending aid to the Palestinian Authority under the ruse that they are acting unilaterally and walked away from their commitment to piece all the while having no policy statement for or against Israel's unilateral continuation of settling the West Bank and East Jerusalem.
http://www.aipac.org...={38E1F026-6021-4B0E-AE3C-B4B636F0A108}

3. Their entire website is built upon "talking points" to give a consistent message to support their opinions.

What more do you want. They do what all groups with an opinion who want to influence society and individuals as a whole do. They have events to solidify their base and they consistently put out their message in any way shape or form they can. The important thing to remember is that they have a view point and they are going to get it out anyway it can.

Here is however where you are missing it. This is not just about AIPAC. This is about:

1. AIPAC
2. J Street
3. Friends of Israel
4. Republican Jewish Coalition
5. Christians United for Israel
6. America-Israel Friendship League
7. American Israel Public Affairs Committee
8. American Jewish Congress
9. American Zionist Movement
................on and on and on and on and on.

For f's sakes the Jewish National Fund which fund raises and buys land for Jewish settlement is a member of the Conference of Presidents of Major American Jewish Organizations

It is undeniable that the overall influence for pro-Israeli organizations far outweighs the influence of pro-Palestinian organizations in the US.
Greyparrot
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6/9/2015 12:12:41 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/9/2015 12:00:06 PM, slo1 wrote:
At 6/9/2015 11:26:53 AM, Greyparrot wrote:

It is undeniable that the overall influence for pro-Israeli organizations far outweighs the influence of pro-Palestinian organizations in the US.

You make it seem like the average person is a mind-slave to either pro Palestinian lobbies or pro Israeli lobbies. No other scenario. Do you not see a much larger problem were that actually true?
Vox_Veritas
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6/9/2015 12:30:28 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
I believe in Christian Eschatology regarding Israel. Of course, there's also sound secular reasons for doing so. For instance, the Jews are a non-Islamic people in the midst of Islamic peoples. Were the U.S. not to have anything to do with Israel, large Arab coalitions would form and attack Israel (though of course, it's not like that ever happened before, right?).
The Jewish people are persecuted no matter where they go, so they need their own country (Israel). The Arab people living in Israel, were they to be relocated to other Arab countries, probably would be persecuted neither for their religion (well, provided they moved to an Arab nation that matched them in regards to Sunni/Shi'ite) nor for their ethnicity. So they should move. The Jews don't have that luxury.

And of course, Israel is a useful ally in that corner of the Earth.
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