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The Social Contract

kasmic
Posts: 1,302
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6/9/2015 2:45:05 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
I was made to read "The Social Contract" in college. I am currently re-reading it. I thought it might be neat to discuss portions of it on here as I read it. (Though if people don't respond or find this annoying I will discontinue these threads.

"Man is born free; and everywhere he is in chains"

Rousseau claims "the social order is a sacred right which is the basis of all other rights. Nevertheless, this right does not come from nature, and must therefore be founded on conventions."

What is your understanding of "Rights?"

What does Rousseau(R) mean by "Rights?"

Chapter 2 of book one "The First Societies"

"The most ancient of all societies, and the only one that is natural, is the family: and even so the children remain attached to the father only so long as they need him for their preservation. As soon as this need ceases, the natural bond is dissolved. The children, released from the obedience they owed to the father, and the father, released from the care he owed his children, return equally to independence. If they remain united, they continue so no longer naturally, but voluntarily; and the family itself is then maintained only by convention."

R keeps referencing what is or is not natural. What is the impact or significance of a society being natural or unnatural?

Is the primary function of society preservation?
"Liberalism Defined" http://www.debate.org...
"The Social Contract" http://www.debate.org...
"Intro to IR An Open Discussion" http://www.debate.org...

Check out my website, the Sensible Soapbox http://www.sensiblesoapbox.com...
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kasmic
Posts: 1,302
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6/9/2015 3:23:25 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/9/2015 3:05:11 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
Possibly referring to Social Contract overriding Natural Selection.

Is unnatural superior to natural?
"Liberalism Defined" http://www.debate.org...
"The Social Contract" http://www.debate.org...
"Intro to IR An Open Discussion" http://www.debate.org...

Check out my website, the Sensible Soapbox http://www.sensiblesoapbox.com...
My latest article: http://www.sensiblesoapbox.com...
Greyparrot
Posts: 14,256
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6/9/2015 3:34:24 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/9/2015 3:23:25 PM, kasmic wrote:
At 6/9/2015 3:05:11 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
Possibly referring to Social Contract overriding Natural Selection.

Is unnatural superior to natural?

Depends on what your goal is. If you want the goal of survival, social contract is the way to go I would think.
Greyparrot
Posts: 14,256
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6/9/2015 3:47:49 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/9/2015 3:34:24 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 6/9/2015 3:23:25 PM, kasmic wrote:
At 6/9/2015 3:05:11 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
Possibly referring to Social Contract overriding Natural Selection.

Is unnatural superior to natural?

Depends on what your goal is. If you want the goal of survival, social contract is the way to go I would think.

Or maybe more clearly, Social Contract protects the individual, while Natural Selection promotes a species. Sound about right?
kasmic
Posts: 1,302
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6/9/2015 4:54:33 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Or maybe more clearly, Social Contract protects the individual, while Natural Selection promotes a species. Sound about right?

That is an interesting comparison.
"Liberalism Defined" http://www.debate.org...
"The Social Contract" http://www.debate.org...
"Intro to IR An Open Discussion" http://www.debate.org...

Check out my website, the Sensible Soapbox http://www.sensiblesoapbox.com...
My latest article: http://www.sensiblesoapbox.com...
Mike_10-4
Posts: 29
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6/11/2015 10:39:28 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/9/2015 2:45:05 PM, kasmic wrote:
I was made to read "The Social Contract" in college. I am currently re-reading it. I thought it might be neat to discuss portions of it on here as I read it. (Though if people don't respond or find this annoying I will discontinue these threads.

"Man is born free; and everywhere he is in chains"

Rousseau claims "the social order is a sacred right which is the basis of all other rights. Nevertheless, this right does not come from nature, and must therefore be founded on conventions."

What is your understanding of "Rights?"

What does Rousseau(R) mean by "Rights?"

Chapter 2 of book one "The First Societies"

"The most ancient of all societies, and the only one that is natural, is the family: and even so the children remain attached to the father only so long as they need him for their preservation. As soon as this need ceases, the natural bond is dissolved. The children, released from the obedience they owed to the father, and the father, released from the care he owed his children, return equally to independence. If they remain united, they continue so no longer naturally, but voluntarily; and the family itself is then maintained only by convention."

R keeps referencing what is or is not natural. What is the impact or significance of a society being natural or unnatural?

Is the primary function of society preservation?

My understanding of "Rights" is relative to the latest science on rights:
https://www.youtube.com...
kasmic
Posts: 1,302
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6/11/2015 3:48:05 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/11/2015 10:39:28 AM, Mike_10-4 wrote:
At 6/9/2015 2:45:05 PM, kasmic wrote:
I was made to read "The Social Contract" in college. I am currently re-reading it. I thought it might be neat to discuss portions of it on here as I read it. (Though if people don't respond or find this annoying I will discontinue these threads.

"Man is born free; and everywhere he is in chains"

Rousseau claims "the social order is a sacred right which is the basis of all other rights. Nevertheless, this right does not come from nature, and must therefore be founded on conventions."


My understanding of "Rights" is relative to the latest science on rights:
https://www.youtube.com...

Social order is understood as being in contrast with social chaos. He claims this is the fundamental right, from which all others derive. Depending on your understanding of rights, this may already be in conflict with what you believe. I ask, were does this right come from? Rousseau concedes that this right is not natural. Perhaps he draws the need for this right from the principles of Justice and Utility. If Justice means order, sure his statement is sound. I however, do not believe justice to mean order. I believe Justice brings order. Of all the definitions of Justice I have encountered, BSH1"s is my favorite. "Justice is fairness or reasonableness, as well as giving each their due." In this case perhaps we can conclude that if society is just, social order is the result.

Does the scientific understanding of rights contradict or K Rousseau's argument?
"Liberalism Defined" http://www.debate.org...
"The Social Contract" http://www.debate.org...
"Intro to IR An Open Discussion" http://www.debate.org...

Check out my website, the Sensible Soapbox http://www.sensiblesoapbox.com...
My latest article: http://www.sensiblesoapbox.com...
inferno
Posts: 10,565
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6/11/2015 4:06:14 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/9/2015 2:45:05 PM, kasmic wrote:
I was made to read "The Social Contract" in college. I am currently re-reading it. I thought it might be neat to discuss portions of it on here as I read it. (Though if people don't respond or find this annoying I will discontinue these threads.

"Man is born free; and everywhere he is in chains"

Rousseau claims "the social order is a sacred right which is the basis of all other rights. Nevertheless, this right does not come from nature, and must therefore be founded on conventions."

What is your understanding of "Rights?"

What does Rousseau(R) mean by "Rights?"

Chapter 2 of book one "The First Societies"

"The most ancient of all societies, and the only one that is natural, is the family: and even so the children remain attached to the father only so long as they need him for their preservation. As soon as this need ceases, the natural bond is dissolved. The children, released from the obedience they owed to the father, and the father, released from the care he owed his children, return equally to independence. If they remain united, they continue so no longer naturally, but voluntarily; and the family itself is then maintained only by convention."

R keeps referencing what is or is not natural. What is the impact or significance of a society being natural or unnatural?

Is the primary function of society preservation?

Your mind is a social contract. Whatever you think you are, then that is you.
kasmic
Posts: 1,302
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6/11/2015 4:12:45 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Your mind is a social contract. Whatever you think you are, then that is you.

In what sense of the word is that a contract?
"Liberalism Defined" http://www.debate.org...
"The Social Contract" http://www.debate.org...
"Intro to IR An Open Discussion" http://www.debate.org...

Check out my website, the Sensible Soapbox http://www.sensiblesoapbox.com...
My latest article: http://www.sensiblesoapbox.com...
inferno
Posts: 10,565
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6/11/2015 4:13:48 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/11/2015 4:12:45 PM, kasmic wrote:
Your mind is a social contract. Whatever you think you are, then that is you.

In what sense of the word is that a contract?

Because your mind is programmed to do what it is told.
kasmic
Posts: 1,302
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6/11/2015 4:15:14 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/11/2015 4:13:48 PM, inferno wrote:
At 6/11/2015 4:12:45 PM, kasmic wrote:
Your mind is a social contract. Whatever you think you are, then that is you.

In what sense of the word is that a contract?

Because your mind is programmed to do what it is told.

Do computer programs make contracts with the computer? I have always been under the impression that a contract requires an agreement of some kind not just the state of things.
"Liberalism Defined" http://www.debate.org...
"The Social Contract" http://www.debate.org...
"Intro to IR An Open Discussion" http://www.debate.org...

Check out my website, the Sensible Soapbox http://www.sensiblesoapbox.com...
My latest article: http://www.sensiblesoapbox.com...
Mike_10-4
Posts: 29
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6/11/2015 4:49:48 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/11/2015 3:48:05 PM, kasmic wrote:
At 6/11/2015 10:39:28 AM, Mike_10-4 wrote:
At 6/9/2015 2:45:05 PM, kasmic wrote:
I was made to read "The Social Contract" in college. I am currently re-reading it. I thought it might be neat to discuss portions of it on here as I read it. (Though if people don't respond or find this annoying I will discontinue these threads.

"Man is born free; and everywhere he is in chains"

Rousseau claims "the social order is a sacred right which is the basis of all other rights. Nevertheless, this right does not come from nature, and must therefore be founded on conventions."


My understanding of "Rights" is relative to the latest science on rights:
https://www.youtube.com...

Social order is understood as being in contrast with social chaos. He claims this is the fundamental right, from which all others derive. Depending on your understanding of rights, this may already be in conflict with what you believe. I ask, were does this right come from? Rousseau concedes that this right is not natural. Perhaps he draws the need for this right from the principles of Justice and Utility. If Justice means order, sure his statement is sound. I however, do not believe justice to mean order. I believe Justice brings order. Of all the definitions of Justice I have encountered, BSH1"s is my favorite. "Justice is fairness or reasonableness, as well as giving each their due." In this case perhaps we can conclude that if society is just, social order is the result.

Does the scientific understanding of rights contradict or K Rousseau's argument?

Your post asked the question, "What is your understanding of Rights?"

My answer follows the latest research on the subject.

That is, our Unalienable Rights maintains an interaction throughout humanity in economics, discovery, social, etc. Interactions having such reliability, being so great and repeatable, that it can be said to reflect a universal behavior in living nature to characterize those Rights being a manifestation of a physical law in nature known as the Constructal Law.

In other words, life's Unalienable Rights applies to all life and is an outgrowth of the Constructal Law, which is an outgrowth of the Laws of Thermodynamics, a part of the physical Laws of Nature; not metaphysical.

I'm not familiar with "K Rousseau's argument." If his argument only applies to humans than it is most likely metaphysical.

Typically a metaphysical construct is subject to a dialectic embracing some philosophical belief in human nature. In general, metaphysics is a philosophical response relative to the subtle machinery of nature, until the scientific method presents the incarnation of clarity.